UKC

I had my first CWA training day on saturday, and one of the instructors running the training was demonstrating 'good practice' while lead climbing (talking about back-clipping etc), but constantly used his teeth to hold the rope while getting slack to clip in.

I know lots of people do it for personal climbing, which in the end is their choice. but surely this should not be used when demonstrating good practice?

In reply to Nebulous: In sport, isn't it best practice to clip as you pass the bolt so that you don't actually pull the rope up to clip at all?

I imagine that this technique could be applied to trad as well, though it is less likely as the protection is not generally available in a uniform spacing.

As for me, I do it sometimes. I like to think that I would defeat the reflex bite and let go if I took a whipper. I wonder what the odds are?

In reply to Nebulous:

I never ever put the rope anywhere near my mouth, I getting short on teeth and value the ones I've got left. Besides, I've seen my climbing partners put it in their mouth's, and if I did it it would be like kissing; Yuk.

In reply to Nebulous:

Yeah really you should climb up to each bolt so reduce the amount of rope out in the system - although he seemed to clip in as soon as it was within reach.

I would never even consider using my teeth, but this may be because it has been drilled into me since I started.

In reply to Nebulous:

At Malham, about 20 years ago, a young lad arrived at the lower-off of Begozi and the Ledge Lizards (whatever that means). Clipping the belay was precarious, and the old in-situ krab was very stiff; clamping the rope in his teeth, and falling off, appeared more or less simultaneous. Last seen gear still on crag, hand to mouth, blood everywhere, sprinting towards car and, presumably, hospital. It's up to you!

In reply to Nebulous:

Agreeed in principle but isn't there an element of clipping when you are balanced and comfortable. You wouldn't leave a jug where you could reach up and clip to then clip at waist height off a marginal shitty sloper.

I have been known to put the rope in my mouth but hope that the screaming call of "Take" would get it out!

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC): This question really concerns me. I don't have enough experience and do not know enough others who have.

Can anyone speak to it? Is it as easy (I hope) of offering an opinion about what % chance there is of ripping ones teeth out? Has anyone actually been in this situation and avoided the clink clink school photo smile? Has anyone been in this situation who cannot smile for photos now?

In reply to EZ:

Which particular route are you talking about?

Enty

In reply to Nebulous:

Until someone comes up with a better way of pulling up two armfulls of slack to make a high clip (when it looks like that's going to be the best place to clip from) using your teeth will remain best practice.

If you're worried about losing teeth then either learn to open your mouth or take up knitting.

In reply to EZ:


It depends whether you're a screamer or a gritter when taking a surprise whipper.

Most people I know are screamers - they'll be fine.
If you're a gritter, your jaw muscles are easily strong enough to grip the rope tightly enough to allow your falling mass to rip your (particularly front) teeth out).

I'm a screamer....but I try to hold the edge of the rope gently rather than clamping a mouthful! But then I hardly ever fall off!

I'd be more concerned about people climbing with rings on.

As for clipping - wherever is easiest. I often clip over my head (I'm a scaredy-cat). The argument about rope out is fallacious - the fall is the same either way. The difference is clipping now (lower) is from know holds/position whilst waiting to clip at waist (higher) requires to move to unknown holds/position. I do agree about ease of pullingthe rope though.

J

In reply to john arran: (actually in reply to Nebulous, more in addition to John Arran) Or develop very strong lips. You can train them by doing the lip equivalents of deadhangs at home. Allow your head to face towards the ground and practice holding things just using your lips and not teeth. Start small, with a mobile phone or spoon say, and work up. When you can do a 750ml Coke bottle (full) you're probably strong enough to start doing it with the rope. It'll seem awkward at first but you'll soon get into the swing of it. There are other bemefits to super fit lips too.....

In reply to Moacs:
I read something recently from a guy who fell whilst biting the rope & broke his soft palate (ouch!). So be warned.

In reply to Enty: I wasn't talking about any route. I thought that it was generally best practice, unless moves negate the method.

In reply to Moacs:

The argument about rope out is not fallacious. If there are 3m between bolts and you reach up from waist in the middle - thats 1.5m to you, 1.5m to the next bolt and 1.5m back to you =4.5m fall. If you climbed up so harness level with next bolt its just 3m rope = 3m fall. Doesn't mean you'll die but it is worth consideration

In reply to john arran:

Or alternatively don't clip from positions where you might fall!


Chris

In reply to Moacs: I don't tend to fall so I can't remember whether I scream or grit.

Rings... "de-gloving" is all I ever needed to explain to the folk I have seen wearing rings. Quickly removed every time.


I think you are wrong
Wait and miss the clip from level = 2 x the distance to the last bolt fall.
Try to clip early and miss it with a full arms length extra pulled through = 2 x the distance to the last bolt plus one arm's length.

In reply to trouserburp:

I think you might find is a 6m fall in the second scenario.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yes - 7.5m fall as opposed to 6m then. I'll go back to bed

In reply to trouserburp:

6m fall either way?

In reply to trouserburp:

Where can I buy the extra 30cm to give me a 1.5m reach from my waste to full stretch?

In reply to trouserburp:

That's the last time I go climbing up to level with the bolt

In reply to Nebulous:

You always fall the same distance regardless of weather you clip at the wiast or above head height, however you will finish lower if you clip above your head which could have implications if the ground or a ledge is nearby!

Quick example, 2m between bolts, clip the lower one, climb so my waist is level with the upper, I will fall 4m, finishing 2m below the bottom clip...

same bolts, clip the lower one, climb so my waist is one meter above teh bottom clip(exactly in the middle), reach up and go to clip the top one, I have 3m of slack at this point (2 from lower clip to location of upper clip, and then one back to my waist). I fall, I'll drop 1m till i'm level with the lower bolt, and then the further 3m of slack. Total fall 4m, although I will now be 3m below the clip.

In reply to trouserburp:

But if a ledge or the deck is only 4m from the lower bolt it becomes rather important.

In reply to Nebulous: I was talking to someone at the climbing wall the other day who had used his teeth to pull up the rope while clipping in. Took a whipper and ripped out his front teeth completely!

Saying that, I still do it when the need arises!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Ahah but if you are climbing at an angle you fall further reaching up than by climbing to the gear! by a few cm

In reply to Kenny Larsen: Well explained. I'm never waiting to clip again!

In reply to trouserburp:

I always climb at an angle, especially in a strong wind!

In reply to Nebulous:
Apart from the extra distance you might fall by making a high clip (rope running from you up to clip and back down again). Constantly making high clips is very energy consuming. Granted if you are standing on a good ledge or have a good jug and the next move is a tiny sloper then by all means make a high clip, as it would be quite sensible to do so. But I have seen a lot of people make it a regular thing to try and clip bolts or constantly try and place gear above their head for the momentary relief of having a bit of a top rope. The problem of this as a general practice is that it can be very tiring, more fiddly to clip if you are at full stretch and a lot harder to place gear correctly. Generally I will always try and clip at chest or waist height as I can better see what I am doing and I don't have to keep dragging the rope up. Also my teeth are getting on a bit.

In reply to trouserburp:

yes, he was right all along. But you start the 6m fall from 1.5m lower down which makes a differnece on the early bolts. Thus routes should be either bolted or set with a good clipping position at ~waist level to the bolt. The climber who reaches up from a good stable position to clip a bolt rather than cliping from a difficult possition at waist level is climbing well. The error lies with the person who set/bolted the line.

In reply to EZ:


Why would you pull through more than you need? And if you did, you'd be just as likely to from level.

Your argument depends on someone pulling through too much rope only when they are clipping upwards. In fact "pushing" the rope up to the next clip almost guarantees no extra is pulled.

J

In reply to EZ:

How come in 9 years of climbing nobody ever pointed out that this was a fallacious argument!

In reply to Moacs: I was wrong mate. I didn't do the maths properly.

In reply to EZ:

No worries. It's a well-worn discussion and very few have the integrity to use those words. I applaud you.

J

In reply to Moacs:

All these scenarios assume no slack in the system. How about factoring in - if you a doing a long clip the 2nd man will likely give you extra slack. If you climb up until the bolt is near waist level that shouldn't be needed.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Be a nice soft take then.



j

This is not giving me the answer I was looking for lol.

lets rephrase. Was it acceptable for a CWA Trainer to be using their teeth while demonstrating good practice?

In reply to Nebulous:

I would consider it poor practice in general and exceptionally poor in this case.

It is possible that the route was badly set so he was clipping from the best position, but he should have explained that.