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According to an article in the Scotsman, the EICA complex at Ratho is facing temporary or even permanent closure due to the size of the subsidy required to keep it running. The article says that climbing numbers are up over last year but blames the economic downturn on the slump in conference business and corporate bookings.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/Register.aspx?ReturnURL=http%3A%2F%2Fthesco...
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/Register.aspx?ReturnURL=http%3A%2F%2Fthesco...
In reply to JimSh: All you bad news guzzlers listen up. This journalist has created a fabulous work of fiction. He should give up journalism and take up Mills and Boon. His suggestions are nonsense so I suggest you ignore the article and move on to something else. EICA is a fantastic asset for Edinburgh. It makes more money for Edinburgh than any other Edinburgh Leisure site and receives no additional funding. Gordon Buchan should be ashamed of himself for falling in to the trap of believing this hack, Ferguson.
The above was posted as a comment on the Scotsman, lets hope it is closer to the mark than the article.
The above was posted as a comment on the Scotsman, lets hope it is closer to the mark than the article.
In reply to Dave Morrison:
Here's another one:
"There are reputed to be under 5000 active climbers in Scotland and why anyone ever thought Ratho would be viable defies belief. The Ice Factor, a private concern< in Kinlochleven is also losing money hand over fist and is bound to have to close soon. Private but £100,000's of public money went into building it."
Given a minute's thought I can see that Ratho will be under threat if it's really costing £1000 a day given that public funding will be cut substantially next year. If that's the true level of the subsidy and Ratho is regarded as a facility of national importance then I'd say that additional funding to keep it open should come from outside Edinburgh.
Here's another one:
"There are reputed to be under 5000 active climbers in Scotland and why anyone ever thought Ratho would be viable defies belief. The Ice Factor, a private concern< in Kinlochleven is also losing money hand over fist and is bound to have to close soon. Private but £100,000's of public money went into building it."
Given a minute's thought I can see that Ratho will be under threat if it's really costing £1000 a day given that public funding will be cut substantially next year. If that's the true level of the subsidy and Ratho is regarded as a facility of national importance then I'd say that additional funding to keep it open should come from outside Edinburgh.
In reply to JimSh:
was Brian Ferguson not the hack who recently wrote that crap about the lack of tourist signs to the top of Ben Nevis - the
I have a vague memory, but I can't find anything to verify it, that he also wrote stuff about the mountain bike centres 'losing money hand over fist' or some such rubbish.
He appears to be on a one man mission to ensure that no one in Scotland can get any exercise!
was Brian Ferguson not the hack who recently wrote that crap about the lack of tourist signs to the top of Ben Nevis - the
I have a vague memory, but I can't find anything to verify it, that he also wrote stuff about the mountain bike centres 'losing money hand over fist' or some such rubbish.
He appears to be on a one man mission to ensure that no one in Scotland can get any exercise!
In reply to Ditch_Jockey: or an adrenaline fix...
In reply to Removed User:
Who said this? Don't think I would put much stock in it tbh.
> (In reply to Removed UserDave Morrison)
>
> Here's another one:
>
> "The Ice Factor, a private concern< in Kinlochleven is also losing money hand over fist and is bound to have to close soon."
>
>
> Here's another one:
>
> "The Ice Factor, a private concern< in Kinlochleven is also losing money hand over fist and is bound to have to close soon."
>
Who said this? Don't think I would put much stock in it tbh.
In reply to Ditch_Jockey:
I don't know if this was him or not. He seems to concentrate on the workings of the Embra Cooncillors.
I don't know if this was him or not. He seems to concentrate on the workings of the Embra Cooncillors.
In reply to JimSh:
Edinburgh Trust (who run Ratho) have their annual report and accounts available here:
http://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/resources/docs/ANNUAL_REPORT_2007-08.pdf
I assume 08/9 will be out shortly.
Loss of £1.1m mostly attributable to the climbing centre. "Must be addressed in the short term"
Reserves of c. £1m at 31/3/08.
Subsidy £1.94 per visit.
4.1m visits.
No a sustainable position I'd say.
J
Edinburgh Trust (who run Ratho) have their annual report and accounts available here:
http://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/resources/docs/ANNUAL_REPORT_2007-08.pdf
I assume 08/9 will be out shortly.
Loss of £1.1m mostly attributable to the climbing centre. "Must be addressed in the short term"
Reserves of c. £1m at 31/3/08.
Subsidy £1.94 per visit.
4.1m visits.
No a sustainable position I'd say.
J
In reply to Removed User:
This is simply not the case.
> The Ice Factor, a private concern in Kinlochleven is also losing money hand over fist and is bound to have to close soon.
This is simply not the case.
In reply to Moacs: those figures don't stack up, they must include other EL centres as I am pretty sure that Ratho doesn't receive an average of 11,232 visits per day.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
An absolute load of PISH!!! And you can quote me, it must be an effin slow news week.
An absolute load of PISH!!! And you can quote me, it must be an effin slow news week.
In reply to Bill Davidson: glad to hear that!
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
I think so too - though the "highlights" section does attribute the loss mainly to the climbing centre.
I think it will be politically impossible for them to shut it to be honest.
j
> (In reply to John Lisle) those figures don't stack up, they must include other EL centres as I am pretty sure that Ratho doesn't receive an average of 11,232 visits per day.
I think so too - though the "highlights" section does attribute the loss mainly to the climbing centre.
I think it will be politically impossible for them to shut it to be honest.
j
In reply to MelH: Folks I've posted a reply to Morag Frae Edinburgh on the Scotsman Thread. Its bizzare how many people who've never visited Ratho or Ice Factor are able to comment with such authority on the respective funding, ambience of both places. Rab, Duncan and I were all on the fundraising trail at the same time and I know first hand just how much personal pain is involved in getting and maintaining a visionary mountaineering facility. Ratho was, and remains the most stunning climbing facility in the world,their numbers are up, more climbers are coming and I wish the facility nothing but continued success, its great for the whole of the UK climbing community.
For the record, IFL achieved profit in its second year of operation and has been consistently profitable since. Not enought to allow me to get the new Aston Martin -LOL - but enought to keep a my family and a team of dedicated staff in a job that they love and in a place they want to live whilst providing a much needed facility for climbers, moutaineers and visitors.
It would be safe to say the financial crisis brought me more than a few headaches, as evidenced by my burgeoning grey hair, but we have weathered that storm and are progressing plans for our next facility. I hope to announce full details on UKC in the near future. In the interim, thank you all for your continued support of the centre. Cheers Jamie Smith
For the record, IFL achieved profit in its second year of operation and has been consistently profitable since. Not enought to allow me to get the new Aston Martin -LOL - but enought to keep a my family and a team of dedicated staff in a job that they love and in a place they want to live whilst providing a much needed facility for climbers, moutaineers and visitors.
It would be safe to say the financial crisis brought me more than a few headaches, as evidenced by my burgeoning grey hair, but we have weathered that storm and are progressing plans for our next facility. I hope to announce full details on UKC in the near future. In the interim, thank you all for your continued support of the centre. Cheers Jamie Smith
In reply to jampot:
So how does your assertion that Ratho is profitable square with the report that John Lilse refers to? Are you simply referring to an operating profit?
So how does your assertion that Ratho is profitable square with the report that John Lilse refers to? Are you simply referring to an operating profit?
In reply to Removed User:
Reply copied from comments
Ice Factor,
glencoe 11/10/2009 14:35:47
In Reply to 15 Morag Frae Edinburgh. Delighted that you know so much about the outdoor industry and particularly my company - The Ice Factor. Surprised to know that we're losing money hand over fist, suppose my team and bank would be also. Ice Factor in Kinlochleven achieved profit in year 2 and has been profitable every year since. There was no public money into Ice Factor Ltd. My wife and I invested our life savings and sold our home to get the centre built and I attracted private investment/finance for the remainder. There was 1.2m of British Alcan and European Structural funds spent on Kinlochleven before I arrived, to decontaminate the site / village after the smelter closed. Today Ice Factor is one of the top 5 visitor attractions in the highlands, 5 times winner of the top tourism award and winner of the Green Apple Award for best environmental project in Europe. A study by Robert Gordon University in 2007 confirmed Ice Factor puts £4.2m per annum into the Lochaber economy and attracts circa 138,000 visitors each year, many of whom are families and visitors looking for an active and memorable experience. Thus the investment in decontamination had an immediate ROI and payback period which had directly benefited my local economy.
There are 400,000 people who head to the Scottish Hills every weekend and the Outdoor Industry is the fastest growing/important niche of the tourism sector which accounts for 14.4% of all jobs in Scotland. Ratho was a breath taking project - worth noting that every national icon has gone over budget. But today, it advertises Scotland on the National stage and provides a multi-generational facility that is simply the best of its kind in the world. Shame of you for nae-saying with limited knowledge of the sector and place. Agree there needs to be a strategy for moving forward, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the option.
Reply copied from comments
Ice Factor,
glencoe 11/10/2009 14:35:47
In Reply to 15 Morag Frae Edinburgh. Delighted that you know so much about the outdoor industry and particularly my company - The Ice Factor. Surprised to know that we're losing money hand over fist, suppose my team and bank would be also. Ice Factor in Kinlochleven achieved profit in year 2 and has been profitable every year since. There was no public money into Ice Factor Ltd. My wife and I invested our life savings and sold our home to get the centre built and I attracted private investment/finance for the remainder. There was 1.2m of British Alcan and European Structural funds spent on Kinlochleven before I arrived, to decontaminate the site / village after the smelter closed. Today Ice Factor is one of the top 5 visitor attractions in the highlands, 5 times winner of the top tourism award and winner of the Green Apple Award for best environmental project in Europe. A study by Robert Gordon University in 2007 confirmed Ice Factor puts £4.2m per annum into the Lochaber economy and attracts circa 138,000 visitors each year, many of whom are families and visitors looking for an active and memorable experience. Thus the investment in decontamination had an immediate ROI and payback period which had directly benefited my local economy.
There are 400,000 people who head to the Scottish Hills every weekend and the Outdoor Industry is the fastest growing/important niche of the tourism sector which accounts for 14.4% of all jobs in Scotland. Ratho was a breath taking project - worth noting that every national icon has gone over budget. But today, it advertises Scotland on the National stage and provides a multi-generational facility that is simply the best of its kind in the world. Shame of you for nae-saying with limited knowledge of the sector and place. Agree there needs to be a strategy for moving forward, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the option.
In reply to jampot: Took my two lads, 9 and 5, to Ratho when we were on holiday. All I can say is, and I'm not much of an indoor climber, what an absolutely stunning place and superb facility the arena is. Personally I think it would be a tragedy if such an excellent facility was closed.
In reply to IanC:
Ah yes, sorry I was confused about the reply because I missed the reference to IFL.
Nice to see the Ice Factor is doing well and that Morag is talking pish. Not unusual on the comments sections in the Scotsman.
So no rebuttals on Ratho still losing money? Hmmm.
Ah yes, sorry I was confused about the reply because I missed the reference to IFL.
Nice to see the Ice Factor is doing well and that Morag is talking pish. Not unusual on the comments sections in the Scotsman.
So no rebuttals on Ratho still losing money? Hmmm.
In reply to jampot:
Good to hear Jamie - I did think that Morag Fae Edinburgh was talking out a hole in her ****!
Mel
Good to hear Jamie - I did think that Morag Fae Edinburgh was talking out a hole in her ****!
Mel
In reply to JimSh:
Some more comments now showing EICA Ratho in better light on your link Jim! There was a Festival of Climbing held there on Sat and I'm not sure of the figures but it drew in lots of non climbers to try out climbing for the first time. This was supported by a lot of volunteers who put in a hard shift!
Bill
Some more comments now showing EICA Ratho in better light on your link Jim! There was a Festival of Climbing held there on Sat and I'm not sure of the figures but it drew in lots of non climbers to try out climbing for the first time. This was supported by a lot of volunteers who put in a hard shift!
Bill
In reply to JimSh:
I dont think there is any doubt that the centre is being propped up financially. But that is maybe because Edinburgh Leisure are more used to running swimming pools than running corporate entertaiment facilities.
As an Edinburgh council tax payer, I am pleased to see money being spent on a worthwhile facility (even at a cost of £800,000 per annum), rather than the £750 million!!! on a tram system we dont want or need.
I dont think there is any doubt that the centre is being propped up financially. But that is maybe because Edinburgh Leisure are more used to running swimming pools than running corporate entertaiment facilities.
As an Edinburgh council tax payer, I am pleased to see money being spent on a worthwhile facility (even at a cost of £800,000 per annum), rather than the £750 million!!! on a tram system we dont want or need.
In reply to Bill Davidson:
The comments show EICA and the Ice Factor in a good light, but they show the majority of those posting in a very poor light indeed, not to mention the person who wrote the article.
The comments show EICA and the Ice Factor in a good light, but they show the majority of those posting in a very poor light indeed, not to mention the person who wrote the article.
In reply to niggle:
It is rather hard to think of the journalistic fraternity in good light after this! Not that I did before hand come to think of it
It is rather hard to think of the journalistic fraternity in good light after this! Not that I did before hand come to think of it
In reply to JimSh:
I really hope this is a load of scare mungering doom and gloom by some hack! EICA is great, my husband and I are members and visit 3 times a week. It's always busy, at the weekends and the evenings. The recent Rock climbing festival sounds like a great success too.
I am shocked about the comments I read on the Scotman's article, the lovely people of Edinburgh need to realise how great this centre is and how much of an asset it is to our great city.
If the council ever suggest a closure then I'll be the first to organise a protest outside their offices!
I really hope this is a load of scare mungering doom and gloom by some hack! EICA is great, my husband and I are members and visit 3 times a week. It's always busy, at the weekends and the evenings. The recent Rock climbing festival sounds like a great success too.
I am shocked about the comments I read on the Scotman's article, the lovely people of Edinburgh need to realise how great this centre is and how much of an asset it is to our great city.
If the council ever suggest a closure then I'll be the first to organise a protest outside their offices!
In reply to JFort:
>the lovely people of Edinburgh need to realise how great this centre is and how much of an asset it is to our great city.
The problem there is it's not 'In' Edinburgh so I doubt if much of the populace even know it exists. And (although I know this is labouring a point), there's still no public transport to the place and i don't know many people that would be keen on a 15 minute walk from the bridge inn if it's pissing down.
>the lovely people of Edinburgh need to realise how great this centre is and how much of an asset it is to our great city.
The problem there is it's not 'In' Edinburgh so I doubt if much of the populace even know it exists. And (although I know this is labouring a point), there's still no public transport to the place and i don't know many people that would be keen on a 15 minute walk from the bridge inn if it's pissing down.
In reply to graeme jackson:
It's not in Edinburgh no, it's a bit hard to build a place that size in the middle of a busy, old and very historic city.
Agreed that the transport links are not the best, a direct bus would be great and if the doomed trams went anywhere near then that'd be great but I doubt it.
As someone who has done the 15min walk along the canal many, many times and in all weathers and at all times of day I agree that it's not ideal, however the pub by the bus stop does help to cheer the spirits and you can nip in for a quick pint on those cold winter nights while you wait 45mins for the next bus!
I do think a lot of people know of its existence, everyone I have spoken to about it, climber or not knows it's there. However if they are needing to make more money from conferences and events then I think a lot of people don't know it has this facility and that it's distance from the city centre could make that harder for them, a tricky one but I hope they can sort something out as it would be such a loss to not just Edinburgh but Scotland.
It's not in Edinburgh no, it's a bit hard to build a place that size in the middle of a busy, old and very historic city.
Agreed that the transport links are not the best, a direct bus would be great and if the doomed trams went anywhere near then that'd be great but I doubt it.
As someone who has done the 15min walk along the canal many, many times and in all weathers and at all times of day I agree that it's not ideal, however the pub by the bus stop does help to cheer the spirits and you can nip in for a quick pint on those cold winter nights while you wait 45mins for the next bus!
I do think a lot of people know of its existence, everyone I have spoken to about it, climber or not knows it's there. However if they are needing to make more money from conferences and events then I think a lot of people don't know it has this facility and that it's distance from the city centre could make that harder for them, a tricky one but I hope they can sort something out as it would be such a loss to not just Edinburgh but Scotland.
In reply to Bill Davidson: Great to see support for Edinburgh Leisure and the staff at EICA. I gave a completely glowing statement to the Scotsman, not one word was reported. Well done David to give the MC of S endorsement.
As Arnold Bennett said "Journalists say a thing that they know isn't true, in the hope that if they keep on saying it long enought it will be true".
As Arnold Bennett said "Journalists say a thing that they know isn't true, in the hope that if they keep on saying it long enought it will be true".
In reply to jampot:
Yes fine we all know that journalists tell lies sometimes but is Ratho costing Edinburgh a lot of money?
If it is then the council will have to do something about it in the next financial year.
Yes fine we all know that journalists tell lies sometimes but is Ratho costing Edinburgh a lot of money?
If it is then the council will have to do something about it in the next financial year.
In reply to JimSh: I can't see Ratho ever permanently closing or losing it's climbing facilities as it's just too big and high-quality a facility to disappear. It'll find a way somehow I'm sure.
In reply to JimSh: Thanks for all the positive replies especially those of Jamie Smith and Bill Davidson –the guys who are involved in such matters, and who also contributed positive posts on the Scotsman website.
I’m just an old punter who noticed the article on Saturday and bookmarked it so that it could be read by others. I make occasional visits to Ratho and each time I marvel at the size and standard of the facilities. Like almost all the other contributors I feel that the centre is a world class venue and should be kept open.
Unlike some other contributors I feel that we shouldn’t be too hard on the journalist Brian Ferguson for bringing the matter into the open. As I said in a previous post he writes mainly about council matters and I would think that the negative vibe of the article reflects the attitude of the council. In the present economic climate councils are going to be strapped for cash especially City of Edinburgh Council who are committed to their tram set in Princes Street. If Ratho needs such a large subsidy as indicated in the article, it is an obvious target. Surely forewarned is forearmed.
EICA Ratho is a world-class facility in a first-class building on the outskirts of the capital with motorway/ trunk road links to Central Scotland and the NE of England. It even has an international airport on the doorstep. We should do all we can to help Edinburgh Leisure convince Edinburgh Council that it is an investment for the future.
I’m just an old punter who noticed the article on Saturday and bookmarked it so that it could be read by others. I make occasional visits to Ratho and each time I marvel at the size and standard of the facilities. Like almost all the other contributors I feel that the centre is a world class venue and should be kept open.
Unlike some other contributors I feel that we shouldn’t be too hard on the journalist Brian Ferguson for bringing the matter into the open. As I said in a previous post he writes mainly about council matters and I would think that the negative vibe of the article reflects the attitude of the council. In the present economic climate councils are going to be strapped for cash especially City of Edinburgh Council who are committed to their tram set in Princes Street. If Ratho needs such a large subsidy as indicated in the article, it is an obvious target. Surely forewarned is forearmed.
EICA Ratho is a world-class facility in a first-class building on the outskirts of the capital with motorway/ trunk road links to Central Scotland and the NE of England. It even has an international airport on the doorstep. We should do all we can to help Edinburgh Leisure convince Edinburgh Council that it is an investment for the future.
In reply to Removed User: that's is eric, put your foot down!
In reply to Dave Morrison: Eric, what would you suggest the council "do about it" ?
In reply to Removed User:
I'm not an expert on such matters but I would assume all council owned/ run leisure facilities run on a loss esp places like council swimming pools. The public don't seem to mind picking up the tab on places like this so why should ratho be any different. It is in effect a leisure centre trying to encourage people into sports!
So what do you suggest to cut the bill on all leisure facilities? Just get rid of them?
> (In reply to Removed Userjampot)
>
> Yes fine we all know that journalists tell lies sometimes but is Ratho costing Edinburgh a lot of money?
>
> If it is then the council will have to do something about it in the next financial year.
>
> Yes fine we all know that journalists tell lies sometimes but is Ratho costing Edinburgh a lot of money?
>
> If it is then the council will have to do something about it in the next financial year.
I'm not an expert on such matters but I would assume all council owned/ run leisure facilities run on a loss esp places like council swimming pools. The public don't seem to mind picking up the tab on places like this so why should ratho be any different. It is in effect a leisure centre trying to encourage people into sports!
So what do you suggest to cut the bill on all leisure facilities? Just get rid of them?
In reply to MelH:
I am pretty sure that the figure of 800k is waaay of the mark.
The EICA costs less to the taxpayer than the Commy Pool and it is currently turning out world class junior athletes.
I would much rather pay for the EICA though my taxes than say the wages of this man:
http://tinyurl.com/ykmdtjw
He is the Tory councillor who is always gunning for it to be closed.
Bruce
I am pretty sure that the figure of 800k is waaay of the mark.
The EICA costs less to the taxpayer than the Commy Pool and it is currently turning out world class junior athletes.
I would much rather pay for the EICA though my taxes than say the wages of this man:
http://tinyurl.com/ykmdtjw
He is the Tory councillor who is always gunning for it to be closed.
Bruce
In reply to JimSh:
Following the publication of articles at the weekend, in both The Scotsman and The Evening News, which speculate on the future of the EICA, Graeme Gardiner, Manager of EICA, would like to offer the following assurance;
"As highly valued visitors to and users of the Edinburgh International Climbing Arena, I would like to take this opportunity to comment on recent press speculation regarding the future of this venue.
"First and foremost, I would like to clarify that Edinburgh Leisure - as managers of the EICA - has had no discussions with the City of Edinburgh Council regarding the sale of EICA, a reduction in opening hours or the temporary closure of the venue.
"The EICA plays a key role in the provision of public leisure facilities to the people of Edinburgh and beyond. It has reported signficant rises in usage and income this year compared to last. It recently achieved a 5 star status by Visit Scotland, was accredited as ‘The National Centre for Indoor Climbing’ by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland and was voted Best Place to Work in Edinburgh at the 2008/09 Forth Awards.
These are all incredible achievements and are testament to the hard work and commitment of Edinburgh Leisure and all venue staff who have achieved this fantastic result. We continue to look forward to welcoming you through our doors to enjoy our facilities in the future."
Following the publication of articles at the weekend, in both The Scotsman and The Evening News, which speculate on the future of the EICA, Graeme Gardiner, Manager of EICA, would like to offer the following assurance;
"As highly valued visitors to and users of the Edinburgh International Climbing Arena, I would like to take this opportunity to comment on recent press speculation regarding the future of this venue.
"First and foremost, I would like to clarify that Edinburgh Leisure - as managers of the EICA - has had no discussions with the City of Edinburgh Council regarding the sale of EICA, a reduction in opening hours or the temporary closure of the venue.
"The EICA plays a key role in the provision of public leisure facilities to the people of Edinburgh and beyond. It has reported signficant rises in usage and income this year compared to last. It recently achieved a 5 star status by Visit Scotland, was accredited as ‘The National Centre for Indoor Climbing’ by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland and was voted Best Place to Work in Edinburgh at the 2008/09 Forth Awards.
These are all incredible achievements and are testament to the hard work and commitment of Edinburgh Leisure and all venue staff who have achieved this fantastic result. We continue to look forward to welcoming you through our doors to enjoy our facilities in the future."
In reply to Edinburgh Leisure: seems to be an annual article in the scotsman...
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Ratho-arena39s-cash-troubles-hit.4545035...
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Ratho-arena39s-cash-troubles-hit.4545035...
In reply
It would be interesting to know what Alien Rock's view of this is. A loss making, council run, vanity project dragging custom away from a successful private company providing the same service at a lower price.
It would be interesting to know what Alien Rock's view of this is. A loss making, council run, vanity project dragging custom away from a successful private company providing the same service at a lower price.
In reply to MG:
I like Alien Rock but no way can you say they are offering the 'same service' as Ratho.
The Scotsman decided to ignore all the good stories that have come from Ratho recently including the inaugural 'Climbing Rocks' Family Festival that was held last Saturday.
I like Alien Rock but no way can you say they are offering the 'same service' as Ratho.
The Scotsman decided to ignore all the good stories that have come from Ratho recently including the inaugural 'Climbing Rocks' Family Festival that was held last Saturday.
In reply to silverstone:
Other than an amazing space what do you get at Ratho that you do not get at Alien Rock?
> (In reply to MG)
>
> I like Alien Rock but no way can you say they are offering the 'same service' as Ratho.
>>
> I like Alien Rock but no way can you say they are offering the 'same service' as Ratho.
Other than an amazing space what do you get at Ratho that you do not get at Alien Rock?
In reply to MG:
Cold...
I think Ratho and Alien complement one another - for those in Edinburgh without cars, Alien is easier to get to, the opposite is true if you live outside Edinburgh, for example.
Alien has short technical routes, Ratho has longer stamina routes.
Etc etc etc.
> Other than an amazing space what do you get at Ratho that you do not get at Alien Rock?
Cold...
I think Ratho and Alien complement one another - for those in Edinburgh without cars, Alien is easier to get to, the opposite is true if you live outside Edinburgh, for example.
Alien has short technical routes, Ratho has longer stamina routes.
Etc etc etc.
In reply to silverstone:
Because - sports facility holds open day isn't news. it's happening all over scotland all the time.
> (In reply to MG)
>
>>
>
> The Scotsman decided to ignore all the good stories that have come from Ratho recently including the inaugural 'Climbing Rocks' Family Festival that was held last Saturday.
> The Scotsman decided to ignore all the good stories that have come from Ratho recently including the inaugural 'Climbing Rocks' Family Festival that was held last Saturday.
Because - sports facility holds open day isn't news. it's happening all over scotland all the time.
In reply to Edinburgh Leisure:
really? - the staff never look that happy
> was voted Best Place to Work in Edinburgh at the 2008/09 Forth Awards.
>
>
>
>
really? - the staff never look that happy
In reply to Hay:
Totally agree - plus local community pools do not attract people from all over the country! Totally my point really! It is a leisure facility and normal for council to pick up the tab for leisure facilities with nobody moaning, but also it is a world class facility!
> (In reply to MelH)
> The EICA costs less to the taxpayer than the Commy Pool and it is currently turning out world class junior athletes.
Totally agree - plus local community pools do not attract people from all over the country! Totally my point really! It is a leisure facility and normal for council to pick up the tab for leisure facilities with nobody moaning, but also it is a world class facility!
In reply to MG:
Isn't that a bit like asking why surfers bother going to the Gold Coast when all it's got is great waves?
> Other than an amazing space what do you get at Ratho that you do not get at Alien Rock?
Isn't that a bit like asking why surfers bother going to the Gold Coast when all it's got is great waves?
In reply to MG:
A bigger climbing shop.
A multi gym.
A spa.
A cafe.
A soft play area to leave your kids in.
A Judo arena.
Occasional lectures.
Easily more than twice as much bouldering area.
Massive stamina routes (20+ metres).
Super steep lead routes on the comp wall unlike anything else in Britain.
Cold hands.
You may not feel you personally benefit from the differences but to pretend there aren't any is just being obtuse. Alien is a good smallish local wall catering very well for lower/mid grade climbers. Ratho is a huge training and climbing facility with no equals in the country churning out a large chunk of the current British Youth Team.
> (In reply to silverstone)
> Other than an amazing space what do you get at Ratho that you do not get at Alien Rock?
A bigger climbing shop.
A multi gym.
A spa.
A cafe.
A soft play area to leave your kids in.
A Judo arena.
Occasional lectures.
Easily more than twice as much bouldering area.
Massive stamina routes (20+ metres).
Super steep lead routes on the comp wall unlike anything else in Britain.
Cold hands.
You may not feel you personally benefit from the differences but to pretend there aren't any is just being obtuse. Alien is a good smallish local wall catering very well for lower/mid grade climbers. Ratho is a huge training and climbing facility with no equals in the country churning out a large chunk of the current British Youth Team.
In reply to neil the weak:
"Ratho is a huge training and climbing facility with no equals in the country"
If I might be so bold. Bullsh*t. It has no equal in the world!! (Or at least none that I have seen and I have been to lots of World Cup & World Championship venues)
"Ratho is a huge training and climbing facility with no equals in the country"
If I might be so bold. Bullsh*t. It has no equal in the world!! (Or at least none that I have seen and I have been to lots of World Cup & World Championship venues)
In reply to niggle:
No, people don't go to climbing walls for great spaces but for bits of plastic on plywood, which are available at both.
> (In reply to MG)
>
> [...]
>
> Isn't that a bit like asking why surfers bother going to the Gold Coast when all it's got is great waves?
>
> [...]
>
> Isn't that a bit like asking why surfers bother going to the Gold Coast when all it's got is great waves?
No, people don't go to climbing walls for great spaces but for bits of plastic on plywood, which are available at both.
In reply to neil the weak:
So basically the council is subsidising coffee shops and so on, and a few top end competition climbers from all over Britain. I don't pay taxes in Edinburgh but if I did I don't think I would be very happy with the situation if there were shortages elsewhere, as there are. As a climber I would also rather any taxpayer subsidy were spent on climbing related projects that can not be made to work on a commercial basis as climbing walls clearly can.
>
> You may not feel you personally benefit from the differences but to pretend there aren't any is just being obtuse.
> You may not feel you personally benefit from the differences but to pretend there aren't any is just being obtuse.
So basically the council is subsidising coffee shops and so on, and a few top end competition climbers from all over Britain. I don't pay taxes in Edinburgh but if I did I don't think I would be very happy with the situation if there were shortages elsewhere, as there are. As a climber I would also rather any taxpayer subsidy were spent on climbing related projects that can not be made to work on a commercial basis as climbing walls clearly can.
In reply to MG: No they are also subsidising a dojo, a spa, a gym and consequently quite a few job.
In reply to niggle:
I'm sure they are nice.
And wonderful as i am they shouldn't need me saying hi to them to make them look happy - after all they work in the best office in edinburgh, don't they? They should be bouncing off walls, not need coaxing out of a shell.
I'm sure they are nice.
And wonderful as i am they shouldn't need me saying hi to them to make them look happy - after all they work in the best office in edinburgh, don't they? They should be bouncing off walls, not need coaxing out of a shell.
In reply to MelH:
I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
In reply to MG: Yes, the coucil is subsidising a leisure facility (to some extent at least, rathos loss gets smaller each year), in this case an amazing climbing facility rather than a gym or swimming pool as they do elsewhere in town. I think logically if you object to ratho being funded you have to object to all leisure facilities being funded by the council (as Ed L as a whole runs at a loss I believe). Good leisure facilities are worth funding though I think.
This so obvious I can hardly believe I'm saying it but not all climbing walls give the same climbing experience. It would be like saying "I can't see why anyone goes to Ceuse, Bennybeg is just up the road" - after all you can "do sport climbing" at Bennybeg so you'd be wasting your time and money going all the way to Ceuse for the same thing right? Err no, because small average routes are not the same as huge, steep unique routes. Analogy ends.
Just because you don't think the climbing at ratho is anything different or special does not mean it's not - many, many people including most of the international competitors who have visited it would disagree with you. I persoanlly think the routes at Ratho are the best indoor routes I've ever done, others may not agree - fair enough (but you're wrong ).
This so obvious I can hardly believe I'm saying it but not all climbing walls give the same climbing experience. It would be like saying "I can't see why anyone goes to Ceuse, Bennybeg is just up the road" - after all you can "do sport climbing" at Bennybeg so you'd be wasting your time and money going all the way to Ceuse for the same thing right? Err no, because small average routes are not the same as huge, steep unique routes. Analogy ends.
Just because you don't think the climbing at ratho is anything different or special does not mean it's not - many, many people including most of the international competitors who have visited it would disagree with you. I persoanlly think the routes at Ratho are the best indoor routes I've ever done, others may not agree - fair enough (but you're wrong ).
In reply to es:
Unlike ratho? Which is used for training for the British Judo team and British Climbing Team and draws competitors from all over britain for BRYCCS and the BLCC and indeed all over the world when there are world cup rounds there.
> (In reply to MelH)
>
> I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
>
> I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
Unlike ratho? Which is used for training for the British Judo team and British Climbing Team and draws competitors from all over britain for BRYCCS and the BLCC and indeed all over the world when there are world cup rounds there.
In reply to es:
Missed no point - I personally wasn't talking about the commonwealth pool. I was talking about community swimming pools. Whoever said commy in their post I took to mean that as I had already been talking about local leisure facilities and how councils all over the UK are picking up hefty tabs for those and that Ratho is no different so why all the moaning.
So yes, if it meant Commonwealth Pool I agree - both the commonwealth pool and Ratho are world class facilities.
> (In reply to MelH)
>
> I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
>
> I think you might have missed the point re the commonwealth pool - being a 50m pool it does (when it's not being refurbished that is) draw in customer and competitors from across the county. And yes it's used as a national team training facility.
Missed no point - I personally wasn't talking about the commonwealth pool. I was talking about community swimming pools. Whoever said commy in their post I took to mean that as I had already been talking about local leisure facilities and how councils all over the UK are picking up hefty tabs for those and that Ratho is no different so why all the moaning.
So yes, if it meant Commonwealth Pool I agree - both the commonwealth pool and Ratho are world class facilities.
In reply to various people: I have to admit that I'm still in two minds about Ratho. As someone who climbs about 7b and likes long routes I'd love to climb there regularly. However I have to admit the my first impression when I originally visited was that I thought the design of the whole facility was just utterly hopeless in terms of ever being cost effective. The was several years ago and it is still my view.
At the other end of the spectrum is somewhere like Boulders, the new wall in Cardiff. It's build costs were probably less than 4% of Ratho's (and less than 10% of what Edinburgh Council has invested so far) and it can cater to a similar number of climbers.
In terms of running a wall, a lot of capital and recurring costs scale with the length of routes. Unfortunately I don't think many climbers would be willing to pay the appropriate premium for long routes therefore I believe that Ratho is consigned to always struggle to be commercially viable.
You just need to do some maths. Walls cost c.400 pounds per square metre and need about 1.25m of linear space per route. Assume a repayment time of fifteen years and 8% cost of capital which gives a 11.6% annual cost. Assume an upfront cost for holds of 25 pounds per metre of climbing and an ongoing annual cost of perhaps a fifth of that. Assume an optimistic occupancy time of 30 hours per week per route averaged over the year and an average climbing session lasts 2.5 hours of actual climbing time.
A 10m lead route will therefore cost you perhaps 659 pounds per year and support around 1248 user visits per year. That gives a basic cost for the climbing infrastructure alone of 53p per climber. However if you have 25m routes that cost is 79p more per climber per visit.
You can then apply the same rational to:
- Construction cost of the building
- Maintenance cost of the building
- Running costs of the building
- Additional costs of route setting
- Additional costs of annual inspections
and probably a few other things as well...
If you do, then you will be looking at an additional cost of several pounds per climber for 25+m routes compared with 10,12 or 15m routes. As a rough estimate I think that on an equivalent business models the true cost per visit of a wall with 25m routes could be around 30% higher than that of a similar wall with 10m routes.
To my mind it is fairly obvious that the premium for the longer routes is effectively being funded by the Council given that the current 8.75 entry fee pounds is the same as that for other much lower climbing centres. Unfortunately I really don't think there are many (any?) climbers who would pay a more realistic fee of perhaps 11.40 per visit which would reflect the 'better' facilities.
So, would you pay perhaps 30% more if your current local wall was replaced by 'Ratho'?
At the other end of the spectrum is somewhere like Boulders, the new wall in Cardiff. It's build costs were probably less than 4% of Ratho's (and less than 10% of what Edinburgh Council has invested so far) and it can cater to a similar number of climbers.
In terms of running a wall, a lot of capital and recurring costs scale with the length of routes. Unfortunately I don't think many climbers would be willing to pay the appropriate premium for long routes therefore I believe that Ratho is consigned to always struggle to be commercially viable.
You just need to do some maths. Walls cost c.400 pounds per square metre and need about 1.25m of linear space per route. Assume a repayment time of fifteen years and 8% cost of capital which gives a 11.6% annual cost. Assume an upfront cost for holds of 25 pounds per metre of climbing and an ongoing annual cost of perhaps a fifth of that. Assume an optimistic occupancy time of 30 hours per week per route averaged over the year and an average climbing session lasts 2.5 hours of actual climbing time.
A 10m lead route will therefore cost you perhaps 659 pounds per year and support around 1248 user visits per year. That gives a basic cost for the climbing infrastructure alone of 53p per climber. However if you have 25m routes that cost is 79p more per climber per visit.
You can then apply the same rational to:
- Construction cost of the building
- Maintenance cost of the building
- Running costs of the building
- Additional costs of route setting
- Additional costs of annual inspections
and probably a few other things as well...
If you do, then you will be looking at an additional cost of several pounds per climber for 25+m routes compared with 10,12 or 15m routes. As a rough estimate I think that on an equivalent business models the true cost per visit of a wall with 25m routes could be around 30% higher than that of a similar wall with 10m routes.
To my mind it is fairly obvious that the premium for the longer routes is effectively being funded by the Council given that the current 8.75 entry fee pounds is the same as that for other much lower climbing centres. Unfortunately I really don't think there are many (any?) climbers who would pay a more realistic fee of perhaps 11.40 per visit which would reflect the 'better' facilities.
So, would you pay perhaps 30% more if your current local wall was replaced by 'Ratho'?
In reply to MG:
Maybe some of the money comes from the block grant from London!
Ratho is amazing, and Alien is brilliant too. Lucky us in Edinburgh, sure beats the climbing walls of London hands down.
Maybe some of the money comes from the block grant from London!
Ratho is amazing, and Alien is brilliant too. Lucky us in Edinburgh, sure beats the climbing walls of London hands down.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Blimey, that's a lot of maths.
I'm sure that the figures are troublesome if they are viewed in isolation.
However, Ratho is more than just a climbing wall...it is an event destination too.
I'm not sure how you'd begin to add up the additional local income it generates with competitions.
This year there's been: Junior Team trials, Scottish Uni Bouldering Comp, Forces Comp, British Leading Champs, Euro Junior Leg and next year is the Worlds. That is a lot of competitiors, supporters and families all staying eating and drinking in the local area.
That level of spend in the local area keeps businesses going, keeps people in jobs and feeds into the Council Tax system.
Bruce
Blimey, that's a lot of maths.
I'm sure that the figures are troublesome if they are viewed in isolation.
However, Ratho is more than just a climbing wall...it is an event destination too.
I'm not sure how you'd begin to add up the additional local income it generates with competitions.
This year there's been: Junior Team trials, Scottish Uni Bouldering Comp, Forces Comp, British Leading Champs, Euro Junior Leg and next year is the Worlds. That is a lot of competitiors, supporters and families all staying eating and drinking in the local area.
That level of spend in the local area keeps businesses going, keeps people in jobs and feeds into the Council Tax system.
Bruce
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
IIRC, Ratho went under once, so a lot of the capital costs can be ignored (just like the WICC/whatever it is called now).
IMHO, these place are so big that they can never cover their running costs.
lsn
IIRC, Ratho went under once, so a lot of the capital costs can be ignored (just like the WICC/whatever it is called now).
IMHO, these place are so big that they can never cover their running costs.
lsn
In reply to Hay: Very good points.
I completely agree that the facility does generate very significant local income. Therefore, the Council will need to weigh up that contribution against the fact that in isolation it is never likely to break even.
Unfortunately in the current financial climate if the Council has to balance subsidizing Ratho against making cuts to other core services then the wider economic contribution of the facility may not be enough to maintain the subsidy.
I completely agree that the facility does generate very significant local income. Therefore, the Council will need to weigh up that contribution against the fact that in isolation it is never likely to break even.
Unfortunately in the current financial climate if the Council has to balance subsidizing Ratho against making cuts to other core services then the wider economic contribution of the facility may not be enough to maintain the subsidy.
In reply to lowersharpnose:
Agreed. However the relative capital costs were the easiest component to do a quantative a comparison on. Also they are an issue with build costs of the new comp walls.
My general opinion as well. However, I don't have enough facilities management knowledge to comment with any certainty on the relative running costs of a building like Ratho compared to other climbing walls. The 30% figure above is just an educated guess.
> IIRC, Ratho went under once, so a lot of the capital costs can be ignored (just like the WICC/whatever it is called now).
Agreed. However the relative capital costs were the easiest component to do a quantative a comparison on. Also they are an issue with build costs of the new comp walls.
> IMHO, these place are so big that they can never cover their running costs.
My general opinion as well. However, I don't have enough facilities management knowledge to comment with any certainty on the relative running costs of a building like Ratho compared to other climbing walls. The 30% figure above is just an educated guess.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Wider economic contribution is one of the few 'industries' that Edinburgh has. Leisure and Culture ARE the core services.
The Fringe, Festival, The Tattoo, Hogmanay, the Galleries (and to a slightly lesser extent places like Ratho) bring in millions of pounds annually.
As you say, it is easy to point at subsidies for these things because running them is expensive.
There was a sustained attck on the Fringe over the last few years: elitist, not-for-Edinburgh-folk, too heavily subsidised etc. This undoubtedly cost the Fringe a Director, many sponsors, lots of money and may have terminally undermined the whole organisation. All this despite the fortune spent locally in August.
The other aspect of this, even less tangible than the local income, is whether Edinburgh/Scotland/the UK should have world class facilities to develop world class athletes. This is of course subjective but I guess a society is either diverse, exciting and dynamic - or its not.
Bruce
Wider economic contribution is one of the few 'industries' that Edinburgh has. Leisure and Culture ARE the core services.
The Fringe, Festival, The Tattoo, Hogmanay, the Galleries (and to a slightly lesser extent places like Ratho) bring in millions of pounds annually.
As you say, it is easy to point at subsidies for these things because running them is expensive.
There was a sustained attck on the Fringe over the last few years: elitist, not-for-Edinburgh-folk, too heavily subsidised etc. This undoubtedly cost the Fringe a Director, many sponsors, lots of money and may have terminally undermined the whole organisation. All this despite the fortune spent locally in August.
The other aspect of this, even less tangible than the local income, is whether Edinburgh/Scotland/the UK should have world class facilities to develop world class athletes. This is of course subjective but I guess a society is either diverse, exciting and dynamic - or its not.
Bruce
In reply to all:
Capital's climbing venue rock solid.
Please see a link below to a letter published in the Scotsman yesterday:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/letters/Capital39s-climbing-venue-rock-soli...
Capital's climbing venue rock solid.
Please see a link below to a letter published in the Scotsman yesterday:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/letters/Capital39s-climbing-venue-rock-soli...
In reply to Hay: Well said.
In reply to Edinburgh Leisure:
I was extremely disappointed with many aspects of your report "Climbing centre hangs by thread as '£1,000-a-day' costs deemed too high"
I see that you are hoping to cut the loss to ~£1,500 a day, (aiming for a reduced annual loss of £500,000).
...The EICA does not cover its operating costs. However, no direct subsidy is paid by the council to EL for this facility....
Presumably, the council cover the costs some other way, not through EL?
I was extremely disappointed with many aspects of your report "Climbing centre hangs by thread as '£1,000-a-day' costs deemed too high"
I see that you are hoping to cut the loss to ~£1,500 a day, (aiming for a reduced annual loss of £500,000).
...The EICA does not cover its operating costs. However, no direct subsidy is paid by the council to EL for this facility....
Presumably, the council cover the costs some other way, not through EL?
In reply to lowersharpnose:
Nothing seems to address the central question of whether a squeeze on local government budgets in the next 12-18 months (not an unlikely prospect for any local authority) would translate to a squeeze on subsidy, and what form that might take for the Ratho management.
The statement from the council is far less reassuring - report due next month, and it reads to me as if the journalist has been privy to some of it in draft form.
The comment from the Labour cllr, if accurately reported, seems very ominous to me, and does suggest that there has been some discussion internally on how the administration might reduce the subsidy.
Nothing seems to address the central question of whether a squeeze on local government budgets in the next 12-18 months (not an unlikely prospect for any local authority) would translate to a squeeze on subsidy, and what form that might take for the Ratho management.
The statement from the council is far less reassuring - report due next month, and it reads to me as if the journalist has been privy to some of it in draft form.
The comment from the Labour cllr, if accurately reported, seems very ominous to me, and does suggest that there has been some discussion internally on how the administration might reduce the subsidy.
In reply to Martin76:
Indeed.
I thought the letter of complaint by EL was a bit daft.
Paraphrasing: "How dare you say we are losing £1,000 a day. We are losing £1,500 a day..." etc.
Indeed.
I thought the letter of complaint by EL was a bit daft.
Paraphrasing: "How dare you say we are losing £1,000 a day. We are losing £1,500 a day..." etc.
These loses are just incredible. I know roughly what the build costs were for some recently opened climbing centres around the UK and they are all breaking even or in some cases making large profits.
The amount of money LOST at Ratho in 3 years is could have built a mix of climbing and bouldering walls in more traditional venues in half a dozen locations. Unfortunately there is just no possible justification that concentrating vast public expenditure in a single site best serves the wider interests of grass-roots climbers across the country or even those in the Central Belt.
If the management can manage to break even next year or the year after I'll be extremely impressed. They deserve lots of credit for reducing the losses as much as they have done but taking a defensive attitude to criticism won't help their case.
The amount of money LOST at Ratho in 3 years is could have built a mix of climbing and bouldering walls in more traditional venues in half a dozen locations. Unfortunately there is just no possible justification that concentrating vast public expenditure in a single site best serves the wider interests of grass-roots climbers across the country or even those in the Central Belt.
If the management can manage to break even next year or the year after I'll be extremely impressed. They deserve lots of credit for reducing the losses as much as they have done but taking a defensive attitude to criticism won't help their case.
In reply to Mark Stevenson: Some people have effectively been saying "You are a giant waste of money and should get shut down immediately for the good of all!". What sort of attiude other than defensive is someone expected to adopt in the face of that type of critiscism?
In reply to Mark Stevenson: The simple fact is as has been stated above, this is a world class venue, something indeed to be be proud of. Having been personally involved in the construction of a large number of publicly funded fiasco's that spiralled out of budget why dont you get you knickers in a twist about them. After all how much went into Wembley... Ratho is worth every penny in comparison.
In reply to muppetfilter: It's a white elephant - a wonderful one but a white elephant nonetheless.
Who on earth thought it would be a good idea to have real rock as 1/2 the walls of a building (in Scotland) - what on earth were they thinking ? Have you seen the seepage ? And the one thing it would have had which no other centre offers, was climbing on real rock ! And the number of real rock routes in there is ........ 0.
I'm with the people (realists) who say it can never be self sustaining.
That's not to say it should be shut. Maybe it needs an Arts grant or something ?
Shame.
Who on earth thought it would be a good idea to have real rock as 1/2 the walls of a building (in Scotland) - what on earth were they thinking ? Have you seen the seepage ? And the one thing it would have had which no other centre offers, was climbing on real rock ! And the number of real rock routes in there is ........ 0.
I'm with the people (realists) who say it can never be self sustaining.
That's not to say it should be shut. Maybe it needs an Arts grant or something ?
Shame.
In reply to dunc56: You realists are terribly impressive, what with your rigid grasp of reality us fantasists just can't match.
Have a look at what else the Government is/has thrown money at before you condemn a wonderful facility that is a pleasure to be in, that provides so many positives to the area and also Scotland in general.
The money sounds like a lot but it is peanuts in the bigger picture.
I expect you pesky realists will now shoot at me from afar. Fire in.
Have a look at what else the Government is/has thrown money at before you condemn a wonderful facility that is a pleasure to be in, that provides so many positives to the area and also Scotland in general.
The money sounds like a lot but it is peanuts in the bigger picture.
I expect you pesky realists will now shoot at me from afar. Fire in.
In reply to JimSh:
I've no doubt that Ratho will stay open. It's a great facility and those of us lucky enough to be able to use it appreciate that. Someone said earlier in the thread that all major venues come at a cost and that is spot on. Yes it's expensive to run but it's a magic place to climb. And if they do one day get round to having routes on real rock, mountain bike tracks and even kayak training (I think these have all been mentioned as possibilities), it'll be even better.
Think of all the things our councils waste money on! Why are any climbers complaining about Ratho also costing the taxpayer money? If it wasn't spent on Ratho, they would probably really waste the money on something far less worthy or useful.
I've no doubt that Ratho will stay open. It's a great facility and those of us lucky enough to be able to use it appreciate that. Someone said earlier in the thread that all major venues come at a cost and that is spot on. Yes it's expensive to run but it's a magic place to climb. And if they do one day get round to having routes on real rock, mountain bike tracks and even kayak training (I think these have all been mentioned as possibilities), it'll be even better.
Think of all the things our councils waste money on! Why are any climbers complaining about Ratho also costing the taxpayer money? If it wasn't spent on Ratho, they would probably really waste the money on something far less worthy or useful.
In reply to Dave Morrison:
Answer the core question - "can it be self sustaining?" If it can then the tax payers will be off your backs. Problem solved. Yes they throw cash into lots and lots of black holes and look for high profile scape goats such as Ratho. With a little realism it could have been prevented though ?
> (In reply to dunc56) You realists are terribly impressive, what with your rigid grasp of reality us fantasists just can't match.
>
> Have a look at what else the Government is/has thrown money at before you condemn a wonderful facility that is a pleasure to be in, that provides so many positives to the area and also Scotland in general.
>
> The money sounds like a lot but it is peanuts in the bigger picture.
>
> I expect you pesky realists will now shoot at me from afar. Fire in.
>
> Have a look at what else the Government is/has thrown money at before you condemn a wonderful facility that is a pleasure to be in, that provides so many positives to the area and also Scotland in general.
>
> The money sounds like a lot but it is peanuts in the bigger picture.
>
> I expect you pesky realists will now shoot at me from afar. Fire in.
Answer the core question - "can it be self sustaining?" If it can then the tax payers will be off your backs. Problem solved. Yes they throw cash into lots and lots of black holes and look for high profile scape goats such as Ratho. With a little realism it could have been prevented though ?
In reply to dunc56:
How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
In reply to dunc56: I am a tax payer so should I get off my own back?
I understand your point full well though but we don't have a time machine so it has been built the way it is, in the location it is at. So get real
Having climbed at Ibrox and Alien it is clear to me that Ratho is on another level on every level to these almost dingy spaces.
Happy that some of my very hard earned is going on such a venture. Less happy about free methodone and handouts to bums and immigrants but hey ho reality is reality.
I understand your point full well though but we don't have a time machine so it has been built the way it is, in the location it is at. So get real
Having climbed at Ibrox and Alien it is clear to me that Ratho is on another level on every level to these almost dingy spaces.
Happy that some of my very hard earned is going on such a venture. Less happy about free methodone and handouts to bums and immigrants but hey ho reality is reality.
In reply to dunc56:
Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
In reply to sutty:
That's fine - and in Sheffield - when the cuts came - you know what went ? Public libraries. So to prevent being in the sights be realistic.
They shut Barnsley climbing/bouldering room cos it didn't make enough money ? How much money does it cost to run a room in a building - with no holds to move !
Don't get me wrong - I've been to Ratho - I thought it was wonderful but not a viable self supporting business.
> (In reply to dunc56)
>
> How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
>
> How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
That's fine - and in Sheffield - when the cuts came - you know what went ? Public libraries. So to prevent being in the sights be realistic.
They shut Barnsley climbing/bouldering room cos it didn't make enough money ? How much money does it cost to run a room in a building - with no holds to move !
Don't get me wrong - I've been to Ratho - I thought it was wonderful but not a viable self supporting business.
In reply to sutty:
£50,000 or so on the Fringe which benefits the entire city vs. apparently £500,000 (at least) on a climbing centre that benefits a few climbers. If I was a councillor in would certainly be in my sights.
> (In reply to dunc56)
>
> How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
>
> How much does Edinburgh spend on public libraries, promoting the festival etc? They are a drain as well, till you consider the benefits of them.
£50,000 or so on the Fringe which benefits the entire city vs. apparently £500,000 (at least) on a climbing centre that benefits a few climbers. If I was a councillor in would certainly be in my sights.
In reply to dunc56: No they shut Barnsley because of a court case and subsequent paranoia.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Did they - tell me more ? That was a real pity.
> (In reply to dunc56) No they shut Barnsley because of a court case and subsequent paranoia.
Did they - tell me more ? That was a real pity.
In reply to Bill Davidson:
There would be loads, Alien Rock, for example. With subsidized facilities some balance needs to be struck between the number of people who use them and the cost of the subsidy. From what we hear Ratho wouldn't do very well in that sort of analysis.
> (In reply to dunc56)
>
> Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
>
> Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
There would be loads, Alien Rock, for example. With subsidized facilities some balance needs to be struck between the number of people who use them and the cost of the subsidy. From what we hear Ratho wouldn't do very well in that sort of analysis.
In reply to dunc56: There was an accident and the council got taken to court. It was settled out of court despite a strong case for the defence. Wall shuts down not long after.
In reply to MG: love your creation of £50,000. Edinburgh spends a lot more than that. How much do you think the police cost? Or litter removal.
There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
In reply to muppetfilter:
Yes but it's a lovely handrail
> (In reply to MG) love your creation of £50,000. Edinburgh spends a lot more than that. How much do you think the police cost? Or litter removal.
>
> There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
>
> There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
Yes but it's a lovely handrail
In reply to MG:
My apologies, I meant 'public' i.e. council leisure facilities!
Anyway you obviously have an axe to grind with ratho, you weren't one of the ones that got caught sneaking in without paying were you?
My apologies, I meant 'public' i.e. council leisure facilities!
Anyway you obviously have an axe to grind with ratho, you weren't one of the ones that got caught sneaking in without paying were you?
In reply to MG:
I might have a dig at some finances and compare these Ratho subsidies to other world class sports facilities (50m pools), National Cycling Centre, Wembley, Athletics tracks, kayaking/rowing etc. I shall report back peeps, but my gut feeling is that Ratho won't do so badly.
Meanwhile, here's another small thought - by someone subsidising a world class competition facility, doesn't this in some way "replace" the lack of funding for comps and the squad in the uk.....apart from the facilities, other sports and athletes (swimming, cycling etc)receive fairly generous funding on top of facility provision. The red sock brigade can sleep soundly knowing that their BMC subs are not wasted on a group of useless kids who bring absolutely nothing to the BMC............
I might have a dig at some finances and compare these Ratho subsidies to other world class sports facilities (50m pools), National Cycling Centre, Wembley, Athletics tracks, kayaking/rowing etc. I shall report back peeps, but my gut feeling is that Ratho won't do so badly.
Meanwhile, here's another small thought - by someone subsidising a world class competition facility, doesn't this in some way "replace" the lack of funding for comps and the squad in the uk.....apart from the facilities, other sports and athletes (swimming, cycling etc)receive fairly generous funding on top of facility provision. The red sock brigade can sleep soundly knowing that their BMC subs are not wasted on a group of useless kids who bring absolutely nothing to the BMC............
In reply to MG: Next year Ratho is hosting the World Youth Championships which will attract around 500 climbers from around the world along with their entourage. The Economic Impact for the region of this will far outweigh any subsidy in 2010. If you were a councillor you should have this in your sights as well.
In 2004 111 Americans attended the World Youth Championships, USA Climbing did some research and reckoned they spent $250,000 during their stay.
In 2004 111 Americans attended the World Youth Championships, USA Climbing did some research and reckoned they spent $250,000 during their stay.
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Don't we (the English) subsidise Scotland, full stop ? Should we shut Scotland ? We could save a fortune ! Oh hang on, doesn't London subsidise the North - so we would have to be shut too !
> (In reply to dunc56)
>
> Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
>
> Lol, If you shut every leisure facility in Scotland that wasn't self sustaining you'd have nothing left!!! Jeezy peeps!
Don't we (the English) subsidise Scotland, full stop ? Should we shut Scotland ? We could save a fortune ! Oh hang on, doesn't London subsidise the North - so we would have to be shut too !
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Thaknfully, Edinburgh do! The EYS was well supported by them this year - I for one am confident the Worlds will be better next year. Im sure Bill D would agree.
Thaknfully, Edinburgh do! The EYS was well supported by them this year - I for one am confident the Worlds will be better next year. Im sure Bill D would agree.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Ha ha and the funding for the reasearch cost $2million including expenses
> (In reply to MG) Next year Ratho is hosting the World Youth Championships which will attract around 500 climbers from around the world along with their entourage. The Economic Impact for the region of this will far outweigh any subsidy in 2010. If you were a councillor you should have this in your sights as well.
>
> In 2004 111 Americans attended the World Youth Championships, USA Climbing did some research and reckoned they spent $250,000 during their stay.
>
> In 2004 111 Americans attended the World Youth Championships, USA Climbing did some research and reckoned they spent $250,000 during their stay.
Ha ha and the funding for the reasearch cost $2million including expenses
In reply to dunc56: Some Scots (well one in particular) is supposed to be subsidising my drinking habit. Does that mean I should be shut down?
In reply to dunc56:
You were, just for a second, about to get both barrels!!! Then I realised it was a piss take! Hey, lets be careful out there
You were, just for a second, about to get both barrels!!! Then I realised it was a piss take! Hey, lets be careful out there
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Aye aye, I get the drift, just waiting to formalise my order for the BM & I'll stick the two checks in the post A wee flutter on the SA tour might be appropriate tho
Aye aye, I get the drift, just waiting to formalise my order for the BM & I'll stick the two checks in the post A wee flutter on the SA tour might be appropriate tho
In reply to Climber_Mark:
Such as trams.
> Think of all the things our councils waste money on! Why are any climbers complaining about Ratho also costing the taxpayer money? If it wasn't spent on Ratho, they would probably really waste the money on something far less worthy or useful.
Such as trams.
In reply to muppetfilter:
£48,000 from the Council in 2008 up from £27500 in 2003 if you want the check the accounts
http://web.archive.org/web/20061020154314/www.edfringe.com/uploads/attachme...
and x million generated for the economy so money well spent.
I will happily criticise expensive handrails too if you wish. The fact remains though, Ratho is not a good way to spend taxpayers' money - the contribution to the local economy is small and it will never make money so will be an on going drain on finances.
realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
Even if that's true, its still too expensive.
> (In reply to MG) love your creation of £50,000. Edinburgh spends a lot more than that. How much do you think the police cost? Or litter removal.
£48,000 from the Council in 2008 up from £27500 in 2003 if you want the check the accounts
http://web.archive.org/web/20061020154314/www.edfringe.com/uploads/attachme...
and x million generated for the economy so money well spent.
>
> There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and
> There is a handrail in the Sage in Newcastle that cost £250,000. The glass is tinted and cost £1000 a linear meter. I actually know this for a fact as i helped install it. And come on £500,000 how much did the parliament building cost !!! You need to wise up on value for money and
I will happily criticise expensive handrails too if you wish. The fact remains though, Ratho is not a good way to spend taxpayers' money - the contribution to the local economy is small and it will never make money so will be an on going drain on finances.
realise ratho is a fantastic addition to the world climbing map.
Even if that's true, its still too expensive.
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Good man
> (In reply to dunc56)
>
> You were, just for a second, about to get both barrels!!! Then I realised it was a piss take! Hey, lets be careful out there
>
> You were, just for a second, about to get both barrels!!! Then I realised it was a piss take! Hey, lets be careful out there
Good man
In reply to Bill Davidson: Sold out of BM's though, they went like hot cakes. Trying to get some more made and sent up but Ned & Dan are on their hols.
4 Tests v the Saffers. £5 says we lose 3-1
4 Tests v the Saffers. £5 says we lose 3-1
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Not really, it just seems a waste money, so I will say so rather than defend it simply because I am a climber. If Edinburgh council sees fit to spend £500,000 on climbing then great, but spend it on something can not be provided for less by commercial bodies. I don't think Ratho is *that* special, its just a bit bigger than other walls.
> Anyway you obviously have an axe to grind with ratho, you weren't one of the ones that got caught sneaking in without paying were you?
Not really, it just seems a waste money, so I will say so rather than defend it simply because I am a climber. If Edinburgh council sees fit to spend £500,000 on climbing then great, but spend it on something can not be provided for less by commercial bodies. I don't think Ratho is *that* special, its just a bit bigger than other walls.
In reply to MG:
I would like to know why it costs so much in subsidies, seeing as most walls make money. If it is the initial cost being repaid then forget it, after all if the place closes that will have to be written off anyway.
Looking at its website it appears to want to be all things to all people, conferences and climbing in same area, not a good plan in the first place.
http://www.eica-ratho.com/content/conference-&-events-gallery/1604/
I would like to know why it costs so much in subsidies, seeing as most walls make money. If it is the initial cost being repaid then forget it, after all if the place closes that will have to be written off anyway.
Looking at its website it appears to want to be all things to all people, conferences and climbing in same area, not a good plan in the first place.
http://www.eica-ratho.com/content/conference-&-events-gallery/1604/
In reply to sutty: I dont know diversity seems to work for the foundry.
In reply to MG:
Well fair doos, you're entitled to your opinion but thankfully it's in a very small minority! Not just a bit bigger either, it's miles bigger man. You can at least admit that. e.g. when the WYC's are there next year the wall will still be open to other climbers!!! There's not many walls that can do that! And even tho I like Alien, and will be climbing there again shortly, it in no way can be compared to Ratho, you're comparing apples with horses!
Well fair doos, you're entitled to your opinion but thankfully it's in a very small minority! Not just a bit bigger either, it's miles bigger man. You can at least admit that. e.g. when the WYC's are there next year the wall will still be open to other climbers!!! There's not many walls that can do that! And even tho I like Alien, and will be climbing there again shortly, it in no way can be compared to Ratho, you're comparing apples with horses!
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Is it a small minority. Everyone i know who climbs there, thinks ratho is 'OK', but is well aware that it has many faults (i include myself).
Generally these threads about ratho seem to be full of lots of people going 'it's alright i suppose' - and a very vocal minority (usually those connected with kids comp climbing) saying it's the best thing since sliced bread.
At the end of the day, what people say on here doesn't matter squat. If it's the best thing sinced sliced bread, then it'll be rammed to the roof, and turning a profit. I guess we'll know the answer in 10 years.
> (In reply to MG)
>
> Well fair doos, you're entitled to your opinion but thankfully it's in a very small minority!
>
> Well fair doos, you're entitled to your opinion but thankfully it's in a very small minority!
Is it a small minority. Everyone i know who climbs there, thinks ratho is 'OK', but is well aware that it has many faults (i include myself).
Generally these threads about ratho seem to be full of lots of people going 'it's alright i suppose' - and a very vocal minority (usually those connected with kids comp climbing) saying it's the best thing since sliced bread.
At the end of the day, what people say on here doesn't matter squat. If it's the best thing sinced sliced bread, then it'll be rammed to the roof, and turning a profit. I guess we'll know the answer in 10 years.
In reply to MG:
Looks like Bill's right - you made this same comment earlier in the thread.
So, do you work at Alien or do you just climb there? We all know that the aliens' noses were a bit out of joint when Ratho opened and are now seriously out of joint when it turned out that it was so much better than Alien.
> If Edinburgh council sees fit to spend £500,000 on climbing then great, but spend it on something can not be provided for less by commercial bodies.
Looks like Bill's right - you made this same comment earlier in the thread.
So, do you work at Alien or do you just climb there? We all know that the aliens' noses were a bit out of joint when Ratho opened and are now seriously out of joint when it turned out that it was so much better than Alien.
In reply to es:
Lol, My daughter does climb in comps but why should that influence my thoughts on Ratho? I climb myself and while Ratho has faults what wall doesn't, unless you're looking at the smaller walls with rose coloured glasses. Ratho seems to agitate a few people, like you & MG, but the majority seem to like it for what it is, an exceptional world class facility in Scotland. See you at Alien shortly when I come in for a heat.
Lol, My daughter does climb in comps but why should that influence my thoughts on Ratho? I climb myself and while Ratho has faults what wall doesn't, unless you're looking at the smaller walls with rose coloured glasses. Ratho seems to agitate a few people, like you & MG, but the majority seem to like it for what it is, an exceptional world class facility in Scotland. See you at Alien shortly when I come in for a heat.
In reply to es:
Then why not suggest how to make things better? They change things all the time at the request of customers and if you have some great ideas about how to fix faults, I'd bet they'd be delighted to help out.
> Everyone i know who climbs there, thinks ratho is 'OK', but is well aware that it has many faults (i include myself).
Then why not suggest how to make things better? They change things all the time at the request of customers and if you have some great ideas about how to fix faults, I'd bet they'd be delighted to help out.
In reply to niggle:
Neither. I don't really enjoy climbing indoors although I was actually at Ratho last night.
We all know that the aliens' noses were a bit out of joint when Ratho opened and are now seriously out of joint when it turned out that it was so much better than Alien.
I am not surprised, I sure Alien could do quite a lot with half a million a year extra and building for free.
>
> So, do you work at Alien or do you just climb there?
> So, do you work at Alien or do you just climb there?
Neither. I don't really enjoy climbing indoors although I was actually at Ratho last night.
We all know that the aliens' noses were a bit out of joint when Ratho opened and are now seriously out of joint when it turned out that it was so much better than Alien.
I am not surprised, I sure Alien could do quite a lot with half a million a year extra and building for free.
In reply to niggle: Welcome back!
In reply to MG:
Actually Alien's done pretty well financially as far as I know - but the layouts, features, facilities and format of both A1 and A2 is the same now as it was when I started climbing there many years ago.
I wonder, what do you think Alien would do with that money? They've already got some and they're certainly not spending it on improving the place!
> Alien could do quite a lot with half a million a year extra and building for free.
Actually Alien's done pretty well financially as far as I know - but the layouts, features, facilities and format of both A1 and A2 is the same now as it was when I started climbing there many years ago.
I wonder, what do you think Alien would do with that money? They've already got some and they're certainly not spending it on improving the place!
In reply to MG:
Well tbh I think at first the aliens were a tad worried but I think Ratho has been good for them as well. It certainly hasn't affected their numbers I believe. Ratho has brought a lot of new climbers into the industry but of course not everyone appreciates that either!
Well tbh I think at first the aliens were a tad worried but I think Ratho has been good for them as well. It certainly hasn't affected their numbers I believe. Ratho has brought a lot of new climbers into the industry but of course not everyone appreciates that either!
In reply to MG:
Thanks! I wasn't away, I've just been busy - but Bill said I should get my arse in gear....
Thanks! I wasn't away, I've just been busy - but Bill said I should get my arse in gear....
In reply to niggle:
I do. Not last time but the time before i reported the 'dead animal' smell in the toilets to the staff. The time before that i reported some spinning holds.
You don't have to worry about me being a wall flower - i can moan just as well to people faces (with a smile and manners of course).
I do. Not last time but the time before i reported the 'dead animal' smell in the toilets to the staff. The time before that i reported some spinning holds.
You don't have to worry about me being a wall flower - i can moan just as well to people faces (with a smile and manners of course).
In reply to es:
& before anyone accuses me of bias - i report spinning holds, badly graded routes, 'your musics terrible please change it' and 'can we have the fan on/off' at Alien too
& before anyone accuses me of bias - i report spinning holds, badly graded routes, 'your musics terrible please change it' and 'can we have the fan on/off' at Alien too
In reply to JimSh:
If somewhere of roughly the same height were to open in competition to Ratho would anyone actually be bothered about it's closure?
I'd wouldn't like the place to close but the real disaster if it did might not be the loss of a big climbing wall but of access to the quarry, one of Central Scotland's best climbing venues. Another Ratho would be built but the loss of the quarry would be irreplaceable.
If the shit does hit the fan then the MCofS must fight tooth and nail to keep access to the quarry.
If somewhere of roughly the same height were to open in competition to Ratho would anyone actually be bothered about it's closure?
I'd wouldn't like the place to close but the real disaster if it did might not be the loss of a big climbing wall but of access to the quarry, one of Central Scotland's best climbing venues. Another Ratho would be built but the loss of the quarry would be irreplaceable.
If the shit does hit the fan then the MCofS must fight tooth and nail to keep access to the quarry.
In reply to JimSh: Ratho is a superb concept and the folk trying to make it work, especially on the climbing side have done a fine job. Many new climbers have had their first taste of what climbing is about and with their MI instructors these punters have been able to take their early days with the sport outside.
Like the steamed-bun of the Golden M, there's always the gerkin (I hate them so sorry if the analogy doesn't work for you) - and that is, Ratho is in the wrong place for most users.
Over twenty years ago there was an emerging consortium that supported the idea that Hampden, which was then in dire need of refurbishment and upgrading to meet international standards, should have been relocated and given a new-build instead of being re-vamped.
A proposal was to use some of the land in the triangle of motorways S. of Stirling and to create a sports village around the re-located National stadium: of which a major climbing wall and snow dome would have been part of the package including the ubiquitous conference facilities and so on. Other linked ideas included mountain bike trails on nearby Gillies Hill and a Rowing, Canoe / Kayaking centre based closer to Stirling being fed by The Forth.
Not only did a number of the then local councillors suggest that 'scotland doesnae need any artifical snow' (how wrong they were) and the concept of a dedicated mountain bike trails centre seemed alien to many but somehow the bid to upgrade Hampden won through instead of the bolder and perhaps more realistic idea of re-locating to a central location.
The logic of geography would have meant that a central venue would have been easier for all to access but the industrial-backed bid was always going to win through - you know how these sort of major contracts are divvied out but I'd better not write anything else or I'll get a legal challenge or two.
Later, a local climber, Paul Bamford made a good stab at creating a major wall in Falkirk but too much of the development was under-funded and the wall didn't carry the support of National organisations. Hence McCallum, Anderson et al had a virtually free run at their hugely imaginative concept.
I think climbing and IRATA trg. at Ratho need to survive but its financial foundations have always been thin. Economic necessity might bring the sword down but perhaps, if foresight had been part of the planning, maybe we would have a world-leading sports hub based in Central Scotland in a location more suited to attracting travellers from each city, including those from Stirling, Perth and beyond with the passing trade of mountaineers beating a Southerly retreat across the border from rain sodden hills further North?
I know hindsight is a wonderful tool but in this case history is the witness to part of Ratho's difficulties.
aye, Andy
Like the steamed-bun of the Golden M, there's always the gerkin (I hate them so sorry if the analogy doesn't work for you) - and that is, Ratho is in the wrong place for most users.
Over twenty years ago there was an emerging consortium that supported the idea that Hampden, which was then in dire need of refurbishment and upgrading to meet international standards, should have been relocated and given a new-build instead of being re-vamped.
A proposal was to use some of the land in the triangle of motorways S. of Stirling and to create a sports village around the re-located National stadium: of which a major climbing wall and snow dome would have been part of the package including the ubiquitous conference facilities and so on. Other linked ideas included mountain bike trails on nearby Gillies Hill and a Rowing, Canoe / Kayaking centre based closer to Stirling being fed by The Forth.
Not only did a number of the then local councillors suggest that 'scotland doesnae need any artifical snow' (how wrong they were) and the concept of a dedicated mountain bike trails centre seemed alien to many but somehow the bid to upgrade Hampden won through instead of the bolder and perhaps more realistic idea of re-locating to a central location.
The logic of geography would have meant that a central venue would have been easier for all to access but the industrial-backed bid was always going to win through - you know how these sort of major contracts are divvied out but I'd better not write anything else or I'll get a legal challenge or two.
Later, a local climber, Paul Bamford made a good stab at creating a major wall in Falkirk but too much of the development was under-funded and the wall didn't carry the support of National organisations. Hence McCallum, Anderson et al had a virtually free run at their hugely imaginative concept.
I think climbing and IRATA trg. at Ratho need to survive but its financial foundations have always been thin. Economic necessity might bring the sword down but perhaps, if foresight had been part of the planning, maybe we would have a world-leading sports hub based in Central Scotland in a location more suited to attracting travellers from each city, including those from Stirling, Perth and beyond with the passing trade of mountaineers beating a Southerly retreat across the border from rain sodden hills further North?
I know hindsight is a wonderful tool but in this case history is the witness to part of Ratho's difficulties.
aye, Andy
In reply to Andy Cloquet:
While I agree that there is a certain logic in having a venue in central Scotland, Hadrian's wall failed primarily because it was shite. Almost all the walls were vertical so it was boring, it would have cost nothing more to make some overhanging, the only overhanging wall in the place had a ledge half way up they used a type of hold that gave you flappers if you got onto them the wrong way. I climbed with a Dundee club at the time and we visited the place on the first night it was open and even set some routes, we visited once more and never again preferring to travel to Alien, Dunfermline or Ibrox. I guess most other climbers did the same. The owners could have got advice from others but decided not to, I don't know why.
I do agree that it was a lost opportunity to provide a wall on the same scale as Ratho but it didn't fail for the reasons you give.
Also, regarding location. Do you think Ratho would have greater or fewer climbers visiting it if it were located in the centre of Edinburgh rather than the middle of nowhere?
> The logic of geography would have meant that a central venue would have been easier for all to access but the industrial-backed bid was always going to win through - you know how these sort of major contracts are divvied out but I'd better not write anything else or I'll get a legal challenge or two.
While I agree that there is a certain logic in having a venue in central Scotland, Hadrian's wall failed primarily because it was shite. Almost all the walls were vertical so it was boring, it would have cost nothing more to make some overhanging, the only overhanging wall in the place had a ledge half way up they used a type of hold that gave you flappers if you got onto them the wrong way. I climbed with a Dundee club at the time and we visited the place on the first night it was open and even set some routes, we visited once more and never again preferring to travel to Alien, Dunfermline or Ibrox. I guess most other climbers did the same. The owners could have got advice from others but decided not to, I don't know why.
I do agree that it was a lost opportunity to provide a wall on the same scale as Ratho but it didn't fail for the reasons you give.
Also, regarding location. Do you think Ratho would have greater or fewer climbers visiting it if it were located in the centre of Edinburgh rather than the middle of nowhere?
In reply to Removed User: you miss my point by talking about the merits of other walls: the geography provided by a central hub as I described was a missed opportunity that does no favours to the survival of Ratho.
Many more climbers would visit a better placed large wall and one that was IN Edinburgh, with good parking might have shared its custom with Alien etc. but any wall centred on a geographically biased situation is eventually going to have only local trade using it: hence Ratho and Alien tend to have their repeat visits from a loyal following.
Tha's 'ok' for smaller walls but not one as prestigious and as potentially valuable as a National Indoor Climbing centre
Many more climbers would visit a better placed large wall and one that was IN Edinburgh, with good parking might have shared its custom with Alien etc. but any wall centred on a geographically biased situation is eventually going to have only local trade using it: hence Ratho and Alien tend to have their repeat visits from a loyal following.
Tha's 'ok' for smaller walls but not one as prestigious and as potentially valuable as a National Indoor Climbing centre
In reply to Andy Cloquet:
"Many more climbers would visit a better placed large wall and one that was IN Edinburgh, with good parking"
Seemingly such a site was available in the late 90's - an old brewery. The building they put up there was considerably more expensive than Ratho and running costs are higher.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/holyrood/index.htm
"Many more climbers would visit a better placed large wall and one that was IN Edinburgh, with good parking"
Seemingly such a site was available in the late 90's - an old brewery. The building they put up there was considerably more expensive than Ratho and running costs are higher.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/holyrood/index.htm
In reply to David Gibson: Apologies. I meant to acknowledge your post to the Scotsman forum in a previous post but typed Bill davidson's name instead.
In reply to Andy Cloquet:
I'm interested in this "geographical bias" you mention.
I'm assuming that you've never actually visited the EICA - it's built inside an old quarry, essentially by building walls in the one and a half sides that were open then roofing the space.
Obviously this clever idea had huge commercial advantages - building a free-standing space that large would have been a lot more expensive, maybe even impossibly so.
So the "geographical bias" is based on the simple fact that quarries aren't particularly portable so the centre really had to be built where the quarry already was. Maybe that's inconvenient for you. Perhaps you'd also like us to pop Glen Coe on the back of a lorry and bring it round your house to prevent you having to put yourself out to climb there?
I'm interested in this "geographical bias" you mention.
I'm assuming that you've never actually visited the EICA - it's built inside an old quarry, essentially by building walls in the one and a half sides that were open then roofing the space.
Obviously this clever idea had huge commercial advantages - building a free-standing space that large would have been a lot more expensive, maybe even impossibly so.
So the "geographical bias" is based on the simple fact that quarries aren't particularly portable so the centre really had to be built where the quarry already was. Maybe that's inconvenient for you. Perhaps you'd also like us to pop Glen Coe on the back of a lorry and bring it round your house to prevent you having to put yourself out to climb there?
In reply to niggle:
Perhaps you'd also like us to pop Glen Coe on the back of a lorry and bring it round your house to prevent you having to put yourself out to climb there?
That would be great, thanks. On the horrible commercial storage centre behind my house will be fine.
Perhaps you'd also like us to pop Glen Coe on the back of a lorry and bring it round your house to prevent you having to put yourself out to climb there?
That would be great, thanks. On the horrible commercial storage centre behind my house will be fine.
In reply to niggle: Typically fatuous contributions like yours do nothing for your integrity. Glen Coe wont be moth-balled just because the NTS run out of cash looking after their bits!
Oh and by the way, 'Yes' I've visited the Ratho site and possibly before you ever did as I was on-site during construction!
You are correct in talking about the quarry being immovable and providing ready-made walls but if you remember the cost of the roofing outstripped other building costs and caused no end of dire engineering and construction problems. These were, of course skillfully sorted but as part of the consortium's bid for the Stirling-based project the proposed wall and ski dome would have been integral in the the stadium build.
Lastly, I am not talking about any bias: of course being on one side of the country will lead to more visitors from that locale but the point I was making was about long-term planning that was missed by the original Ratho project developers and its new leisure management is now having to cope with.
aye, Andy
Oh and by the way, 'Yes' I've visited the Ratho site and possibly before you ever did as I was on-site during construction!
You are correct in talking about the quarry being immovable and providing ready-made walls but if you remember the cost of the roofing outstripped other building costs and caused no end of dire engineering and construction problems. These were, of course skillfully sorted but as part of the consortium's bid for the Stirling-based project the proposed wall and ski dome would have been integral in the the stadium build.
Lastly, I am not talking about any bias: of course being on one side of the country will lead to more visitors from that locale but the point I was making was about long-term planning that was missed by the original Ratho project developers and its new leisure management is now having to cope with.
aye, Andy
In reply to Andy Cloquet:
I was simply remarking on how odd it is for you to moan about climbers having to travel to Ratho when traveling to venues has pretty much always been part of our sport.
You don't seem so quick to complain that Glen Coe and the Cairngorms are "geographically biased", so why moan about Ratho? It couldn't be that you have some personal axe to grind with the place which leads you to single it out for needless criticism about issues it shares with almost every climbing venue?
I was simply remarking on how odd it is for you to moan about climbers having to travel to Ratho when traveling to venues has pretty much always been part of our sport.
You don't seem so quick to complain that Glen Coe and the Cairngorms are "geographically biased", so why moan about Ratho? It couldn't be that you have some personal axe to grind with the place which leads you to single it out for needless criticism about issues it shares with almost every climbing venue?
In reply to JimSh: Although your attempt at irony was as limp as a Baldrick stiffy, I will give your reply a little of my time: The Scottish Parliament building is another example of short-term planning. Had it been built in a more central location, even as far from Ed. as say Perth it would have been far cheaper and its location would have invited a far more ambitious project than the bizzare attempt by a modern architect to make a personal mark that has drained Scottish coffers and public patience.
The point I was making was based on the idea that if a climbing facility had to be built in the Edinburgh area, a wall, in or around the Haymarket area, with underground car-parking, close to public transport hubs, other City highlights (red-lights and other seemy nonsense the exception, here) and retail concessions, would have worked.
The Edinburgh Conference Centre works as does the Dalry Rd. leisure and retail park and this far on there are still acres of nearby semi-derelict land that is untapped. A major sports arena with a large climbing facility would have been possible, practicable and sustainable as is the Birmingham Arena.
Any demise of Ratho is not going to be as a result of current problems alone!
aye Andy
The point I was making was based on the idea that if a climbing facility had to be built in the Edinburgh area, a wall, in or around the Haymarket area, with underground car-parking, close to public transport hubs, other City highlights (red-lights and other seemy nonsense the exception, here) and retail concessions, would have worked.
The Edinburgh Conference Centre works as does the Dalry Rd. leisure and retail park and this far on there are still acres of nearby semi-derelict land that is untapped. A major sports arena with a large climbing facility would have been possible, practicable and sustainable as is the Birmingham Arena.
Any demise of Ratho is not going to be as a result of current problems alone!
aye Andy
In reply to niggle: Far from having any personal issue with Ratho as I would love to see it survive and when possible I will continue to use it. However, I am not pushing my point on the back of complaining about 'geographical bias' I am writing about best planning and Ratho's original concept, was in my view hugely imaginative for its time but suffered because of its one-choice location.
I have no worry about travelling to a natural resource but when it comes to planning for developments in our sport, I think we have to look further than a 3-5 year business models. Ratho was able to go ahead because the National stadium issue was settled on a re-vamp and not a re-location. Had a re-located National stadium been favoured I doubt whether Ratho's backers would have been so keen to go ahead.
aye, Andy
I have no worry about travelling to a natural resource but when it comes to planning for developments in our sport, I think we have to look further than a 3-5 year business models. Ratho was able to go ahead because the National stadium issue was settled on a re-vamp and not a re-location. Had a re-located National stadium been favoured I doubt whether Ratho's backers would have been so keen to go ahead.
aye, Andy
The thing that gets me is the attitude of Edinburgh Folk... they are fighting tooth and nail to have the council build a new velodrome, which, will need to be subsidised to the same extent as ratho (due to usage and capacity) all because we have 1 olympic gold medallist! Sport should NOT be about providing 'winners', but providing the facilities for all ages to have fun, and get fit - no matter what sport they want to do.
Ratho does have problems - access being one. So instead of all the rubbish that is going on at the council, press Lothian buses to extend the Ratho Route. Why not consolidate some council services at Ratho (such as out door education) therefore reducing heavily subsidised accommodation elsewhere? Ratho can be made cost effective through savings elsewhere (there is a ton of lovely office space, and storage space)... it will just take co oporation on the part of the Council (what a laugh!)
Ratho does have problems - access being one. So instead of all the rubbish that is going on at the council, press Lothian buses to extend the Ratho Route. Why not consolidate some council services at Ratho (such as out door education) therefore reducing heavily subsidised accommodation elsewhere? Ratho can be made cost effective through savings elsewhere (there is a ton of lovely office space, and storage space)... it will just take co oporation on the part of the Council (what a laugh!)
In reply to Hay:
What cost the Fringe a Director was the unmitigated disaster of the new ticketing system last year. The other stuff is just grumbling that goes on all the time. Not that I think there isn't some validity in some of the complaints, but it's certainly difficult to argue against the overall financial benefit to the city.
> There was a sustained attck on the Fringe over the last few years: elitist, not-for-Edinburgh-folk, too heavily subsidised etc. This undoubtedly cost the Fringe a Director
What cost the Fringe a Director was the unmitigated disaster of the new ticketing system last year. The other stuff is just grumbling that goes on all the time. Not that I think there isn't some validity in some of the complaints, but it's certainly difficult to argue against the overall financial benefit to the city.
In reply to MG:
Do you understand accounts and public finance? The Council paid £48,000 to the fringe organisation to help with the event - the Council spent significantly more than this on the Fringe. Yes it generates more than they payout but that is how a tourisim economy works.
Having been involved in organising events I would make a modest guesstimate that the Council probably spend anywhere between £2M and £3.5M on the Fringe - it generates in excess of £76M for the local economy.
> (In reply to muppetfilter)
> [...]
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> £48,000 from the Council in 2008 up from £27500 in 2003 if you want the check the accounts
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> http://web.archive.org/web/20061020154314/www.edfringe.com/uploads/attachme...
>
> [...]
>
> £48,000 from the Council in 2008 up from £27500 in 2003 if you want the check the accounts
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20061020154314/www.edfringe.com/uploads/attachme...
>
Do you understand accounts and public finance? The Council paid £48,000 to the fringe organisation to help with the event - the Council spent significantly more than this on the Fringe. Yes it generates more than they payout but that is how a tourisim economy works.
Having been involved in organising events I would make a modest guesstimate that the Council probably spend anywhere between £2M and £3.5M on the Fringe - it generates in excess of £76M for the local economy.
In reply to JimSh:
Just read this thread after being away.
Seems a shame that the City of Edinburgh Council can happily spend millions on a tram network that is going to be so over-budget that it goes far beyond scandal. Yet a fantastic climbing facility that is truly world class is given marginal support, and lives under a constant threat of closure.
Why has the Council not invested in putting in place a bus link to Edinburgh?
Where is the realistic marketing plan for the venue?
Why are there not more events at the place?
What are they actually doing to broaden the appeal of the place?
Edinburgh is of course the city which loves to vastly overspend on major projects without the bat of an eyelid - Scottish Parliament building anyone - and then crow about how its such a world leading building.
Ratho is a fantastic facility, but is being chronically underutilised. The climbing wall is busy - its the rest of the place that is not being used properly.
The fact that climbing is thought of as a minority sport kind of says it all. To think of Ratho in the same terms of the Council's other leisure centres shows how short term and lacking in vision these people are. Its not just another leisure centre.
And it also shows a total lack of foresight in investing in the sporting future of young people in our country. Why not see the subsidy as an investment instead of dead money. In fact why not invest in the Centre and put in place a properly thought out training programme for developing climbing talent in the UK?
Just read this thread after being away.
Seems a shame that the City of Edinburgh Council can happily spend millions on a tram network that is going to be so over-budget that it goes far beyond scandal. Yet a fantastic climbing facility that is truly world class is given marginal support, and lives under a constant threat of closure.
Why has the Council not invested in putting in place a bus link to Edinburgh?
Where is the realistic marketing plan for the venue?
Why are there not more events at the place?
What are they actually doing to broaden the appeal of the place?
Edinburgh is of course the city which loves to vastly overspend on major projects without the bat of an eyelid - Scottish Parliament building anyone - and then crow about how its such a world leading building.
Ratho is a fantastic facility, but is being chronically underutilised. The climbing wall is busy - its the rest of the place that is not being used properly.
The fact that climbing is thought of as a minority sport kind of says it all. To think of Ratho in the same terms of the Council's other leisure centres shows how short term and lacking in vision these people are. Its not just another leisure centre.
And it also shows a total lack of foresight in investing in the sporting future of young people in our country. Why not see the subsidy as an investment instead of dead money. In fact why not invest in the Centre and put in place a properly thought out training programme for developing climbing talent in the UK?
In reply to jacobfinn:
I'd go to Ratho if I could but there's no way of getting there by public transport from Glasgow.
If they started a bus service, that leaves at say 6pm and comes back at closing time once a day, I'd use it and I'm sure others would too.
It would be such a shame if it closed, I don't think we'd get another facility like it.
I'd go to Ratho if I could but there's no way of getting there by public transport from Glasgow.
If they started a bus service, that leaves at say 6pm and comes back at closing time once a day, I'd use it and I'm sure others would too.
It would be such a shame if it closed, I don't think we'd get another facility like it.
In reply to jacobfinn:
You're right mate, the climbing wall IS busy, it was hard to get a free line tonight and the place is massive. Im not complaining, its great to see the place like that, so many climbers having a good time, it bodes well for the future.I really hope they can sort out the money woes and we can have the use of this amazing facility for years to come.
Maybe we could build a MTB pump track in the underused corporate facilities?
You're right mate, the climbing wall IS busy, it was hard to get a free line tonight and the place is massive. Im not complaining, its great to see the place like that, so many climbers having a good time, it bodes well for the future.I really hope they can sort out the money woes and we can have the use of this amazing facility for years to come.
Maybe we could build a MTB pump track in the underused corporate facilities?
In reply to SeanB: When the place first opened there was a plan to build an MTB track running around the building and the quarry. I would have thought the council could still get something like that going.
I don't know why they aren't getting more revenue out of the corporate facilities. My employer has used them a few times in the past. Maybe with the recession companies aren't spending money on novelty/prestige venues any more?
I don't know why they aren't getting more revenue out of the corporate facilities. My employer has used them a few times in the past. Maybe with the recession companies aren't spending money on novelty/prestige venues any more?
In reply to Martin W: That's exactly why I think. There has actually been conference use happening this week there (Standard Life and HSBC have been in I think) - but the levels of use of this type are down a bit, that's probably the same in all conferencing businesses though in the current economic situation.
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