UKC

Quick question,

is it accepted practice to have a single screwgate as the only thing a top rope goes through at the top of an artificial wall? I've only ever come across one place where this is not backed up.

Cheers

Nikki

In reply to nikinko: My local wall uses a single steel screwgate to use as a lowering/top rope krab on the top of routes.

In reply to nikinko:

Seen it at a couple of walls, but don't like it - if you've only just managed a route it's nice to get clipped into something quickly at the top. Also they are frequently hard to undo, which could be the last climber doing them up too tight, or maybe the screw getting bunged up with chalk dust.

A pair of heavy-duty snaps gets my vote.

In reply to nikinko: Really there should be two anchors at the top of a *top rope* as this is the only anchor for this type of climbing - there is no other protection. For a lead climb I am happy clipping just a spring loaded krab (at my local wall there's a spring loaded and screwgate at the top of each lead)....if this fails then there are further draws down the wall that will hopefully arrest the fall. I guess different walls have different rules and practices. I wouldn't climb a top rope that only had one anchor, and on lead I'm lazy and really should spend the time using all the pro I can.

In reply to nikinko:

I'd rely on a single screwgate outside without a seconds hesitation, I'm not sure why that should differ inside. Is there evidence of them failing?

Screwgate belays are a pain when you get to them on lead and find them done up but there's always the option to jump and lower off the draws if you can't free the gate.

jk

In reply to ahaynes:

Maybe they should put 3 in, just encase the other two fail! Hmm what about if the bolts at the top come undone, they must be backed up as well, 4 of them!

In reply to nikinko:

do you use 2 screwgates or a screw and a snap when abseiling? If like most people you only use one, what the difference here?

In reply to red1200: I'm no H&S fiend, but the difference is a) the gear is probably being used and stressed a lot more on a wall and b) it's an easy step to take so why not?

In reply to red1200:

er, usually if I'm abseiling I don't use either as I've rigged it in a way to leave minimal gear, and would just use a sling or some tat.

>If like most people you only use one, what the difference here?

the difference is between personal climbing and having the care of a group of kids.

In reply to nikinko:


Why do you think it's necessary to back up a hefty steel krab?

In reply to bpmclimb:

If faced with a screwgate at the top of a tricky route it's easy enough to clip in with a spare quickdraw whilst you sort things out. Things aren't always handed to you on a plate when you're climbing

In reply to nikinko:


So why stop at two krabs, what about the rope and harness, neither of those are fully redundant*?

*ok, so a harness can tolerate some limited failure in the legloop area while remaining reasonably safe.

jk

In reply to JoshOvki: That's going a bit far I'm sure you'd agree - what I'm saying is that it's just a good idea to eliminate as many single points of failure as possible. I agree with the subsequent post that the harness and rope are also SPF, but these are easily checked from the ground. These items when used on a top rope route aren't going to take too much strain on a fall anyway because of the amount of rope in use; lead is another matter as I'm sure you appreciate.

In reply to ahaynes:

Sorry it was a tongue in cheek reply. One is safe enough. Even if you had two they would be the same rating and under the same stresses, so possible they could both fail together! Saying that, has there ever been a case of a top-rope krab failing?

In reply to timjones:


The context of the OP was indoor routes, and like just about everyone else, I don't tend to take QDs to the climbing wall. Were you thinking of outdoor sport climbs?

In reply to bpmclimb:



Most walls I climb at require you to use your own quickdraws. Even if they're in situ it's not exactly hard work to carry a QD or single krab up the wall with you!

Or are the stories about softy southerners all true

In reply to fimm: It is alarming sometimes to see the wear on the maillons holding the quickdraws on !!

In reply to ahaynes:


I think he's just pointing out the absurdity of adding redundancy where it simply isn't required. Worry about the important things... checking knots, doing up harnesses, attentive belaying, heels behind ropes etc. Not about frequently inspected equipment working at <10% of it's rated capacity.

Are there any (worldwide I'd expect a few to be honest) cases of a belay krab failing or releasing a toprope at a wall?

I'd also contend that the rope cannot be checked easily in most walls. If each end only just reaches the floor (common) then it's very awkward to inspect the rope without pulling it.

There are plenty of risks associated with indoor climbing... failing belays must be somewhere near the bottom of the list.

jk

In reply to nikinko:

I think single steel screwgates are quite normal for top roping at walls. I'm perfectly happy to use them.

In reply to nikinko: Nothing to really worry about tbh, more chance of your own rope failing than the screw gate.

In reply to nikinko:

I have no problem with single screwgates, although I do prefer the snap gate + screwgate option so you have something to clip into before you start fiddling trying to get a stuck screwgate undone.

In reply to nikinko:

BS 12572 simply states that a top protection point must prevent a rope escaping from it (i.e. not a single snap-link carabiner). Hence one locking carabiner is fine.

The top belay must also be fixed back to the structure at two points capable of taking a 20kN minimum breaking load, and that any link between the structure and the e.g. locking carabiner must also be capable of taking that load as a minimum.

Most walls these days also provide a snap link for leaders to clip since folk have a tendency to crank lockers down which can be a pain to undo at the top of a lead.

In reply to timjones:

Well all the walls I use have in-situ draws, so I never need to pack any for indoor climbing.

I've always thought that packing completely unneccesary gear is a bit stupid, but I see now that I was just being soft. I'll be sure to take my entire rack from now on

In reply to jkarran:
Hiya

A toprope can be checked by tying the two ends together and running the whole rope between your hands as usual, assuming the knot will go through the krab at the top - I see them checking the ropes in this way at my local wall.

Please tell me if I'm completely bonkers (it has been known), but on lowering a bulky adult, would two krabs at the top increase the angle the rope has to travel through and therefore decrease the wear on the rope? Maybe the wall does it 1) for H&S and 2) to save on rope wear? Might be a stupid suggestion, but just popped in there.

Best wishes
Andy

In reply to S i'm on & on:


What happens is that people normally do the screwgate up after they have taken their weight on it, when the weight is released, the crab then is no longer under tension, and squeezes against the screwgate making it very hard for the next person to undo. It doesn't have to be cranked tight, just normal tight will do it.

So if you come across a stuck screwgate, weight it (using a quickdraw or even just your fingers) before undoing it and when you tighten the gate, unscrew it 1/4 of a turn, so that it is still done up, but it will make the life of the next climber a lot easier.

In reply to BIgYeti86:

To be honest, I can't see the point of doing up the screwgate if you have just lead the route and are just lowering off. In the 'very-hard-to-conceive-how' event of a failure, you still have all the quickdraws in the route below. Different if someone will subsequently top rope on your rope of course.

In reply to ahaynes:


Good point... obviously too much blood in my caffeine system this morning! It's obvious now you mention it.


You don't change the angle the rope turns through (180deg+-) but you may reduce the stress concentration in the rope. I doubt it makes that much of a difference.

I suspect the main reason some walls run 2 krabs for topropes is to make it harder for people to erroneously un-clip themselves at the top of the route. People can do the weirdest things!

jk

In reply to jkarran:
Seeing some of the people at the wall I suspect you may be right )

In reply to nikinko: I was told it should be either a single screw gate or 2 snapgates in opposite orientations. I would also expect that wall staff would be checking for wear etc on a regular basis, so I am quite happy with that.

In reply to bpmclimb: I thought we were on about top ropes.

In reply to marsbar:

Yes - I've just read the OP a bit more carefully :0