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I was wondering what people think of climbers and their weight. As a self confessed fatty(ish) at 14.5 st. and somebody who enjoys his food I find it concerning that some leading climbers take their weight very seriously, to the point that they don't really look healthy any more. What effect does this have if any on other climbers, their own body image and their dietary habits? Is there any real need for concern or am I being overly sensitive? Does the climbing press who are responsible for promoting competition results and the general success of these climbers have a responsibility to select images carefully or is this one step too far? These are all loaded questions, but I'm interested in how the way in which the conquests of famous climbers are reported affect the ambitions of young and old climbers, and the lengths to which people go to emulate this success?
Take for example Mr. Haston and the film made years ago of him cranking out pull ups, 2000 a day. I remember thinking "shit - if I could do that, I'd be laughing" and so started trying to do more pull ups. Unfortunately my general sloth intervened and I never even got past 100. But even if I had been able to do 2000, would it even have made a good climber? I know I would have been better, but would I have been the best? Sorry Stvie for using you as an example... I know that I currently climb the best I ever have, and I can hardly do 10!
Take for example Mr. Haston and the film made years ago of him cranking out pull ups, 2000 a day. I remember thinking "shit - if I could do that, I'd be laughing" and so started trying to do more pull ups. Unfortunately my general sloth intervened and I never even got past 100. But even if I had been able to do 2000, would it even have made a good climber? I know I would have been better, but would I have been the best? Sorry Stvie for using you as an example... I know that I currently climb the best I ever have, and I can hardly do 10!
In reply to mike kann:
I can just do 1 pull up, am the same weight I have been for 3 years and am climbing the best I ever have. I think you just need to learn to climb with whatever weight you have. Of course getting lighter would help you climb better but only if you were working on your strength at the same time.
As long as you're happy with what you've got then surely it shouldn't matter if you're climbing 6a at 14 stone or 10stone! The more you climb the better you'll get.
I can just do 1 pull up, am the same weight I have been for 3 years and am climbing the best I ever have. I think you just need to learn to climb with whatever weight you have. Of course getting lighter would help you climb better but only if you were working on your strength at the same time.
As long as you're happy with what you've got then surely it shouldn't matter if you're climbing 6a at 14 stone or 10stone! The more you climb the better you'll get.
In reply to mike kann:
The climbing press report on leading climbers doing new hard routes and winning competitions. If those leading climbers happen to be thin and athletic then so be it, the press can't change that, same as they can't do anything about the build of marathon runners. Every now and then you get a heavier climber that gets reported about (John Dunne springs to mind and Johny Dawes isn't exactly svelt these days). If you look at climbers like Neil Gresham, he used to be built like the Hulk, there was no fat on him, it was all muscle but to progress through the harder grades he had to lose weight and that was losing muscle bulk which is even harder to do without losing strength.
If you want to get an idea of what losing a stone would do to your climbing ability on steeper stuff where you are using your arms more, try climbing with an extra stone on a weight belt and see how much harder it is, even doing pull ups will show you the difference.
That said, I'm a chunk (13 1/2st at 5'10") and whilst I'd like to be a stone to a stone and a half lighter, I've got no willpower to compel me to be a salad botherer and my startling lack of technique, abject terror on bold routes and lack of committment to any sort of useful training programme ensure that my weight will never be the thing that keeps me in the league of the bumblies.
The climbing press report on leading climbers doing new hard routes and winning competitions. If those leading climbers happen to be thin and athletic then so be it, the press can't change that, same as they can't do anything about the build of marathon runners. Every now and then you get a heavier climber that gets reported about (John Dunne springs to mind and Johny Dawes isn't exactly svelt these days). If you look at climbers like Neil Gresham, he used to be built like the Hulk, there was no fat on him, it was all muscle but to progress through the harder grades he had to lose weight and that was losing muscle bulk which is even harder to do without losing strength.
If you want to get an idea of what losing a stone would do to your climbing ability on steeper stuff where you are using your arms more, try climbing with an extra stone on a weight belt and see how much harder it is, even doing pull ups will show you the difference.
That said, I'm a chunk (13 1/2st at 5'10") and whilst I'd like to be a stone to a stone and a half lighter, I've got no willpower to compel me to be a salad botherer and my startling lack of technique, abject terror on bold routes and lack of committment to any sort of useful training programme ensure that my weight will never be the thing that keeps me in the league of the bumblies.
In reply to mike kann:
As Hemingway (never) wrote: there are just two sports, rugby and rock climbing. If you are a lardarse, take up rugby.
As Hemingway (never) wrote: there are just two sports, rugby and rock climbing. If you are a lardarse, take up rugby.
In reply to mike kann:
I don't fancy Stevie Hastons' 700 calories a day - that's not enough by some way but was only for a limited time presumably
I don't fancy Stevie Hastons' 700 calories a day - that's not enough by some way but was only for a limited time presumably
In reply to tobyfk:
Quote: There are but three true sports--bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games.
And more:
This is one in a long list of quotations mysteriously attributed to Ernest Hemingway. While the general public seem to agree that this is in fact a Hemingway quotation, scholars have some reservations and for good reason. The early Hemingway did not believe that bullfighting was a sport. For him it was a tragedy. See his October 20, 1923 article titled "Bullfighting A Tragedy" reprinted in By-Line: Ernest Hemingway Selected Articles and Dispatches of Four Decades edited by William White. Hemingway reiterates his beliefs regarding the tragedy of bullfighting in his 1932 book, Death in the Afternoon.
Chris
Quote: There are but three true sports--bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games.
And more:
This is one in a long list of quotations mysteriously attributed to Ernest Hemingway. While the general public seem to agree that this is in fact a Hemingway quotation, scholars have some reservations and for good reason. The early Hemingway did not believe that bullfighting was a sport. For him it was a tragedy. See his October 20, 1923 article titled "Bullfighting A Tragedy" reprinted in By-Line: Ernest Hemingway Selected Articles and Dispatches of Four Decades edited by William White. Hemingway reiterates his beliefs regarding the tragedy of bullfighting in his 1932 book, Death in the Afternoon.
Chris
In reply to teflonpete: Perhaps I'm not expressing myself very clearly. What I meant was not necessarily guys who are thin and athletic - there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - I fully appreciate the difference weight makes in terms of being able to pull harder on holds. Really I'm referring to people who have perhaps taken things a little bit far and become obsessive about losing weight. Now I suppose you could look at this sort of person and say they are just doing everything they need to to be their best, but does that extra little push, going from being skinny to what I would consider as borderline emaciated, really help? And whilst the climbing press cannot change what these people do, they ultimately are responsible for what appears between their sheets, so have editorial control over images. Surely this gives them the responsibility to make sure that what they publish is not likely to give impressionable young (or indeed old) minds the wrong idea, just as Marie Claire or Vogue should not be printing pictures of dangerously thin supermodels?
In reply to mike kann:
Hi.
Surely that's a climber's own problem. B*ggered if I'm going to start worrying about it...it's like saying "I opened a rugby magazine and they were all big b*stards..."
...the world has gone mad and oversensistive in my opinion. If somebody wants to stave themselve to get up an 8c then let them I say
Hi.
Surely that's a climber's own problem. B*ggered if I'm going to start worrying about it...it's like saying "I opened a rugby magazine and they were all big b*stards..."
...the world has gone mad and oversensistive in my opinion. If somebody wants to stave themselve to get up an 8c then let them I say
In reply to Dan J M: Of course it's their prerogative. But what message is it sending younger climbers who don't know any better? That you have to be painfully underweight to enjoy climbing? Because plenty of young climbers associate the enjoyment of climbing with climbing hard...
In reply to mike kann:
At the top end ... yes. Absolutely. Have a look at stuff written by those at the top of the sport climbing game. You don't have to be a waif to get up a grit E9 but if you want to do hard, steep sport routes then power-weight is critical.
> I fully appreciate the difference weight makes in terms of being able to pull harder on holds. Really I'm referring to people who have perhaps taken things a little bit far and become obsessive about losing weight. Now I suppose you could look at this sort of person and say they are just doing everything they need to to be their best, but does that extra little push, going from being skinny to what I would consider as borderline emaciated, really help?
At the top end ... yes. Absolutely. Have a look at stuff written by those at the top of the sport climbing game. You don't have to be a waif to get up a grit E9 but if you want to do hard, steep sport routes then power-weight is critical.
In reply to mike kann: In my oppinion the responsibilty is with the parent not the climber, people have enough to think about doing what they need to for themselves without needing to worry about what others think.
Just my 2p
Just my 2p
In reply to mike kann:
I can't think of a single example of a "leading climber" who looks "emaciated". Adam Ondra's build seems strange to me, he looks very very thin but there's meat there, he's hardly Christian Bale in The Machinis - he looks healthy to me (I am not a doctor though)
Aside from him, everyone else I've seen pics of looks fine.
Would you care to name names? You mention Haston only in respect to an exercise regime and someone else mentions a calorie intake, but you haven't connected him to "looking emaciated".
I can't think of a single example of a "leading climber" who looks "emaciated". Adam Ondra's build seems strange to me, he looks very very thin but there's meat there, he's hardly Christian Bale in The Machinis - he looks healthy to me (I am not a doctor though)
Aside from him, everyone else I've seen pics of looks fine.
Would you care to name names? You mention Haston only in respect to an exercise regime and someone else mentions a calorie intake, but you haven't connected him to "looking emaciated".
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The dreadful inevitability of it all. You want to scream at the protagonist, "Don't f*cking do it - walk away!!" But, of course, he can't.
That museum by the old bull ring at Ronda... those ancient photographs of glory, followed by gored figures huddled on the sand. A place of ghosts. Brave, so very brave.
Mick
> (In reply to tobyfk)
> Hemingway reiterates his beliefs regarding the tragedy of bullfighting in his 1932 book, Death in the Afternoon.
The dreadful inevitability of it all. You want to scream at the protagonist, "Don't f*cking do it - walk away!!" But, of course, he can't.
That museum by the old bull ring at Ronda... those ancient photographs of glory, followed by gored figures huddled on the sand. A place of ghosts. Brave, so very brave.
Mick
In reply to Blue Straggler: Well OK emaciated is maybe a strong word, maybe painfully thin would be more appropriate. I specifically haven't named anybody mainly because I'm curious to see if others have noticed the same thing or as I say whether it's just something in my mind... I guess for every meathead, there is also the skinny technician?
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I assumed that was who the OP was referring to and must admit, there's one photo in which his leg made me cringe.
That actually made me laugh. I've met Haston in the flash a couple of times and emaciated was never a word that came to mind. I'd have said "stacked"!
> (In reply to mike kann)
>
> I can't think of a single example of a "leading climber" who looks "emaciated". Adam Ondra's build seems strange to me, he looks very very thin but there's meat there, he's hardly Christian Bale in The Machinis - he looks healthy to me (I am not a doctor though)
>
> I can't think of a single example of a "leading climber" who looks "emaciated". Adam Ondra's build seems strange to me, he looks very very thin but there's meat there, he's hardly Christian Bale in The Machinis - he looks healthy to me (I am not a doctor though)
I assumed that was who the OP was referring to and must admit, there's one photo in which his leg made me cringe.
> Aside from him, everyone else I've seen pics of looks fine.
> Would you care to name names? You mention Haston only in respect to an exercise regime and someone else mentions a calorie intake, but you haven't connected him to "looking emaciated".
> Would you care to name names? You mention Haston only in respect to an exercise regime and someone else mentions a calorie intake, but you haven't connected him to "looking emaciated".
That actually made me laugh. I've met Haston in the flash a couple of times and emaciated was never a word that came to mind. I'd have said "stacked"!
In reply to galpinos: Yep - stacked is definately a word I'd use... skinny waist, massive arms...
In reply to JimR: Yeah yeah... I know... things seem to be moving in the wrong direction. It seems I've reached that age where I have to work at staying half way light? Still, I'm treating it as training for when I finally to get skinny
In reply to mike kann:
>Of course it's their prerogative. But what message is it sending younger climbers who don't know any better? That you have to be painfully underweight to enjoy climbing? Because plenty of young climbers associate the enjoyment of climbing with climbing hard...
Fair point, and I for one would prefer to see a few tubby punters on VS routes in the mags. Does it not get a little monotonous to hear how 'such and such' has made the umpteenth flash of some French sport route. Or at Malham for that matter.
>Of course it's their prerogative. But what message is it sending younger climbers who don't know any better? That you have to be painfully underweight to enjoy climbing? Because plenty of young climbers associate the enjoyment of climbing with climbing hard...
Fair point, and I for one would prefer to see a few tubby punters on VS routes in the mags. Does it not get a little monotonous to hear how 'such and such' has made the umpteenth flash of some French sport route. Or at Malham for that matter.
In reply to Dan J M: I can see the headlines now - "totally average punter with barrel chest makes the 1 millionth ascent of Three pebble slap and declares it to be definitive E0".
In reply to mike kann:
or Curbar wrecked after Mike "Six bellies" Kann rescued by hydraulic rams from Peapod
or Curbar wrecked after Mike "Six bellies" Kann rescued by hydraulic rams from Peapod
In reply to JimR: OIIII. F*cker. Peapod is huge - I'd need to eat a serious amount of doughnuts for THAT to happen
In reply to mike kann:
Yep, climbing mags have gone like Top Gear. They never show cars you can afford any more!
Yep, climbing mags have gone like Top Gear. They never show cars you can afford any more!
In reply to Dan J M:
Ah yes, but the programme is so much the better for it
> (In reply to mike kann)
>
> Yep, climbing mags have gone like Top Gear. They never show cars you can afford any more!
>
> Yep, climbing mags have gone like Top Gear. They never show cars you can afford any more!
Ah yes, but the programme is so much the better for it
In reply to mike kann:
If 'fatty training ready for skinny performance' is your plan mike you need to eat nothing between now and a week saturday, I have have a feeling we may need as much power as we can find!
If 'fatty training ready for skinny performance' is your plan mike you need to eat nothing between now and a week saturday, I have have a feeling we may need as much power as we can find!
In reply to Somerset swede basher: I've heard its soft touch E3 Whatever that means! I'm up for Pitches 1,2 and 5, which leaves you a pitch of 5c/6a and a pitch of 5c... That way you get to the hard bits fresh and firing - what do you reckon?
As a bit of a sidetrack did anyone see the intereviews with bradley Wiggens regarding how much weight he had lost for the tour. He was saying what a balancing act it was i.e low weight vs malnutritioned
In reply to mike kann: Sounds good to me. What are the tech grades of 1,2 and 5? Hopefully I wont finish pitch 3 pumped out of my mind! Having said that I lead the top pitch of Lyme Cryme the other day without a pause after seconding wicks up the first pitch and it was all ok. I think Katharine is planning on coming too (not up the route, just to the crag) so hopefully she will be up for taking some photos. I think she wants me to be belay bunny for her on some of the sport on the bend once we are done too.
Glad to see it isnt just me who should be working!
Glad to see it isnt just me who should be working!
In reply to Somerset swede basher: Its 5b, then 5a to a grassy top out (urrrhhh!) then 5a at the top... all I hope is that after following you up two pitches of 5cish that I'm gonna be able to pull to the top! Might be an idea to warm up on somthing as well so Belay bunny idea sounds good... Horseshoe bend is polished shite though - will find something much better for her...
In reply to mike kann: Nah, we can warm up as we go, a quick traverse around the bottom to warm up then just get on it Birkett Style! Presumably the top will be a grassy top out too? Remember what I discovered about using your nut key as some sort of mud dagger last time!?
In reply to Somerset swede basher: Nah. The top is a crisp sharp edge. Pitches 3 and 4 look awesome and not vegitated (by cheddar standards anyway!) whereas the first couple of pitches do seem to be sprouting a bit here and there. However the longrange weather forecast doesn't look intensely promising ;(
In reply to mike kann: Cool, i'll get praying to the sun gods.
In reply to mike kann:
To get back on topic. A million years ago there was an article in On The Edge about Malcolm Smith and Stuart Cameron partaking in the broccoli diet.
At the time myself and my mates were all fairly young and impressionable. Even we thought it was a fecking daft idea to eat nothing but broccoli morning, noon and night. I think Cameron dropped from 11st8 to something like 9st7 under the impression that he'd lose weight but stay the same strength. Don't think it quite worked out.
Anyway my point is that it's going to take a pretty obsessive individual to take training to that sort of extreme and that most mainstream climbers will see/realise that building up strength is more apt for their progress through the grades.
To get back on topic. A million years ago there was an article in On The Edge about Malcolm Smith and Stuart Cameron partaking in the broccoli diet.
At the time myself and my mates were all fairly young and impressionable. Even we thought it was a fecking daft idea to eat nothing but broccoli morning, noon and night. I think Cameron dropped from 11st8 to something like 9st7 under the impression that he'd lose weight but stay the same strength. Don't think it quite worked out.
Anyway my point is that it's going to take a pretty obsessive individual to take training to that sort of extreme and that most mainstream climbers will see/realise that building up strength is more apt for their progress through the grades.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Yes those articles were very informative particularly about how careful his team were being and how he was going to allow his wieght to rise again for the classics and the winter training season. His nutritionalists were saying that as soon as the tour finished he had to put on 3-4kg's.
> As a bit of a sidetrack did anyone see the intereviews with bradley Wiggens regarding how much weight he had lost for the tour. He was saying what a balancing act it was i.e low weight vs malnutritioned
Yes those articles were very informative particularly about how careful his team were being and how he was going to allow his wieght to rise again for the classics and the winter training season. His nutritionalists were saying that as soon as the tour finished he had to put on 3-4kg's.
In reply to SFM: That is pretty extreme indeed. I guess what sparked my thoughts about it all was that people these days look for any and every way to improve, from buying the lightest gear to buying a particular brand of rubber because they reckon it's stickier, right down to pre climb rituals. The vast majority of these things are mainly psychological, and in this sense they make a difference - you feel you have an edge even if it's not true. However some people do get very obsessive about these sorts of things. I know frinds who have (perhaps still do) take creatine supplements feeling that it will help, and I remember other friends who claimed a pre climb Caffine dose from coffee would improve their performance. All of this is perfectly fine, if a little irrational. However this sort of behaviour does extend into the young, and I feel that we as adults should be doing everything we can to push the next generation in the right direction, giving as much good advice as we can, and debunking the myths. One of the main sources of information used to be magazines which had a major role in passing on good information (even here as you point out this was not always the case!)... However this has become vastly diluted with the advent of the internet. UKC is a perfect example of ways in which rumours can become "fact" and it's blindingly obvious to me at least that no everybody is capable of sifting through the bogus from the substantiated. Obviously the owners of the site cannot censor in any meaningful way what is being said other than for truly outrageous comments, so how do we protect those who don't know any better?
In reply to mike kann:I read in one of the UK magazines that Malcolm Smith became a better climber or boulderer after he put on more weight and muscle, I guess being lighter or heavier could have more of a difference on longer routes than on boulder problems? I still have dodgy elbows (which are improving), but when I lost a stone a couple of years ago going from 11.5 to 10.5 due to health reasons, I noticed it made climbing on our garden wall and also into one of our lime trees to do some pruning noticably easier, I was surprised it helped somebody like me to lose a stone. From reading about S Haston on here and Planet Climbing I thought he wrote something about living on not very many calories before climbing his latest route? I suppose it can't do any harm long term if you only lose weight for a short time while you're trianing for a route, and put it back on again afterwards, if you keep in sight mentally that that's what is happening, with regards to eating problems
I think people in a lot of sports watch thier weight before an event, in the Tour de France I think the racer from the Isle of Mann (iirc) decided to lose a stone or two to help him in the mountains, and found that it made a big difference.
Maybe having more detailed information in mags and on the web from top climbers about them putting on weight again after completing a hard route, and about structuring htier trianing, could help younger people see that they don't always have to be thin? Probably climbing is in it's early stages compared to other sports ,with regards to knowing how to train well, and healthily.
Cheers
Tim
I think people in a lot of sports watch thier weight before an event, in the Tour de France I think the racer from the Isle of Mann (iirc) decided to lose a stone or two to help him in the mountains, and found that it made a big difference.
Maybe having more detailed information in mags and on the web from top climbers about them putting on weight again after completing a hard route, and about structuring htier trianing, could help younger people see that they don't always have to be thin? Probably climbing is in it's early stages compared to other sports ,with regards to knowing how to train well, and healthily.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to mike kann:
Like most elite altheltes, top climbers don't carry much excess weight. Of course they take their weight seriously. More specifically they take their diet seriously. It directly affects performace. This is normal in top level sport. I don't agree with you about them not looking healthy anymore.
Like most elite altheltes, top climbers don't carry much excess weight. Of course they take their weight seriously. More specifically they take their diet seriously. It directly affects performace. This is normal in top level sport. I don't agree with you about them not looking healthy anymore.
In reply to mike kann: I weigh 10.482345824567999999182 Stone. Obsessed with my weight? I don't think so. I can't be as I only climb on a top rope and you said climbers that lead.
In reply to mike kann:
being fat is good. it keeps you warm in scottish winter when you're stuck on the belay ledge & your mate is having an epic on his pitch.
on the whole i don't think climbers get that obsessed with weight. they generally get it drummed into them that it's about technique and finger strength. rarely do you hear weight mentioned.
i've never worried about my weight and i am a BIG BOY.
being fat is good. it keeps you warm in scottish winter when you're stuck on the belay ledge & your mate is having an epic on his pitch.
on the whole i don't think climbers get that obsessed with weight. they generally get it drummed into them that it's about technique and finger strength. rarely do you hear weight mentioned.
i've never worried about my weight and i am a BIG BOY.
In reply to mike kann:
I think there's quite a lot of evidence related to creatine use for improving strength and endurance gains, not that many climbers use it due to fears about water retention. I've not tried it but it is on my 'to do' list. I think there's a limit on the amount of caffine you can have in your system in the olympics too so it's obviously not just climbers. Why do you think using those two substances 'irrational'? Is this a conclusion at looking at studies or just a random opinion?
Weight: I've often wondered if getting super-light would really be worth it in terms of worse recovery times, fatigue making you less motivated to train etc, and surely if it made THAT much difference more other - better developed and more scientific - sports would be at it? However, my biking friend tells me that Bradly Wiggins lost about a stone for the Tour de France and emerged to crush compared to his previous performances, so maybe it is all worth it. No excuses, back to the broccoli.
I don't think the media has that much of a responsibility - should they not publish stuff about Paxti doing 7 hours a day 6 days a week or whatever it is he does, just because some kid might try to copy him and get injured and broken? I feel that people can make up their own minds about what the limits are for them in terms of how much they're prepared to sacrifice - be it time, jobs or health - to gain that extra half grade.
> (In reply to SFM) I know frinds who have (perhaps still do) take creatine supplements feeling that it will help, and I remember other friends who claimed a pre climb Caffine dose from coffee would improve their performance. All of this is perfectly fine, if a little irrational. However this sort of behaviour does extend into the young, and I feel that we as adults should be doing everything we can to push the next generation in the right direction, giving as much good advice as we can, and debunking the myths.
I think there's quite a lot of evidence related to creatine use for improving strength and endurance gains, not that many climbers use it due to fears about water retention. I've not tried it but it is on my 'to do' list. I think there's a limit on the amount of caffine you can have in your system in the olympics too so it's obviously not just climbers. Why do you think using those two substances 'irrational'? Is this a conclusion at looking at studies or just a random opinion?
Weight: I've often wondered if getting super-light would really be worth it in terms of worse recovery times, fatigue making you less motivated to train etc, and surely if it made THAT much difference more other - better developed and more scientific - sports would be at it? However, my biking friend tells me that Bradly Wiggins lost about a stone for the Tour de France and emerged to crush compared to his previous performances, so maybe it is all worth it. No excuses, back to the broccoli.
I don't think the media has that much of a responsibility - should they not publish stuff about Paxti doing 7 hours a day 6 days a week or whatever it is he does, just because some kid might try to copy him and get injured and broken? I feel that people can make up their own minds about what the limits are for them in terms of how much they're prepared to sacrifice - be it time, jobs or health - to gain that extra half grade.
In reply to abarro81: I mean irrational in the sense that whilst Creatine occurs naturally in the body, why would anyone feel the need to increase levels by taking supplements? At the end of the day climbing's there to be enjoyed, and yes some people really enjoy the buzz from trying to be the best, but to my mind that is an aim which should be achieved through natural and practised ability and sheer bloody hard work. I'm not saying taking supplements makes it easy, I just don't think it is worthwhile because at the end of the day you will always wonder if you could have done it without... With Caffeine, hmm yeah I guess it does enhance the performance, but again, why do you feel the need to enhance it? Why can't you just rely on the ability which is within you anyway? After all if you are strong enough with Caffeine then in reality you will be without. And surely focus comes as much from your mental state as from what you drank that morning? Would learning to meditate and settle your nerves not be more effective?
With weight, I guess it works for some people and not for others. I'm guessing the only way you can tell is for each individual to experiment. I know I find things easier when I'm lighter, but then again I'm climbing the best I have and I'm at my heaviest. Mind you I am only a punter and I suspect it has more to do with my mental state than anything else...
I see what you mean about people take responsibility, what I would like to see is a good balance. If a top flight athlete is interviewed and gives details of his training regime, then it would be good for the publisher to also ask how he got to that regime, and to qualify it by giving background information. As you say kids will copy and will hurt themselves as a result, and although it's not entirely the magazines responsibility, surely they have some sort of duty of care?
With weight, I guess it works for some people and not for others. I'm guessing the only way you can tell is for each individual to experiment. I know I find things easier when I'm lighter, but then again I'm climbing the best I have and I'm at my heaviest. Mind you I am only a punter and I suspect it has more to do with my mental state than anything else...
I see what you mean about people take responsibility, what I would like to see is a good balance. If a top flight athlete is interviewed and gives details of his training regime, then it would be good for the publisher to also ask how he got to that regime, and to qualify it by giving background information. As you say kids will copy and will hurt themselves as a result, and although it's not entirely the magazines responsibility, surely they have some sort of duty of care?
In reply to mike kann: Be interesting to see how 'clean' climbing is. As comps increase, testing will increase and we'll find out. We've just had (potentially - awaiting B test) our first drugs bust in mountain running. I think money = corruption, put money into a sport and at some pont you'll see drugs. That doesn't mean I think the top performers have to dope.
In reply to mike kann:
Because there's research showing that supplementing it can give better gains in strength and endurance, and because you'd have to eat an awful lot of steak to reach 5g (I think that's what most talk about using) per day.
So what counts as an unnatural supplement? Creatine, even though it does occur naturally? Protein shake at the end of a session so you can recover quicker to train harder the next day? If that's out, what about chocolate milkshake right after your training, which is supposed to be very good as a recovery drink? Is taking a tin of tuna to the wall cheating? Having some lucosade mid session? I doubt lucosade's much more natural than most supplements. It all sounds a bit like the "training's cheating" bollocks.
> (In reply to abarro81) I mean irrational in the sense that whilst Creatine occurs naturally in the body, why would anyone feel the need to increase levels by taking supplements?
Because there's research showing that supplementing it can give better gains in strength and endurance, and because you'd have to eat an awful lot of steak to reach 5g (I think that's what most talk about using) per day.
> At the end of the day climbing's there to be enjoyed, and yes some people really enjoy the buzz from trying to be the best, but to my mind that is an aim which should be achieved through natural and practised ability and sheer bloody hard work. I'm not saying taking supplements makes it easy, I just don't think it is worthwhile because at the end of the day you will always wonder if you could have done it without..
So what counts as an unnatural supplement? Creatine, even though it does occur naturally? Protein shake at the end of a session so you can recover quicker to train harder the next day? If that's out, what about chocolate milkshake right after your training, which is supposed to be very good as a recovery drink? Is taking a tin of tuna to the wall cheating? Having some lucosade mid session? I doubt lucosade's much more natural than most supplements. It all sounds a bit like the "training's cheating" bollocks.
In reply to mike kann:
Well Mike who are these alleged anorexics pray?
> (In reply to teflonpete) Perhaps I'm not expressing myself very clearly. What I meant was not necessarily guys who are thin and athletic - there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - I fully appreciate the difference weight makes in terms of being able to pull harder on holds. Really I'm referring to people who have perhaps taken things a little bit far and become obsessive about losing weight. Now I suppose you could look at this sort of person and say they are just doing everything they need to to be their best, but does that extra little push, going from being skinny to what I would consider as borderline emaciated, really help? And whilst the climbing press cannot change what these people do, they ultimately are responsible for what appears between their sheets, so have editorial control over images. Surely this gives them the responsibility to make sure that what they publish is not likely to give impressionable young (or indeed old) minds the wrong idea, just as Marie Claire or Vogue should not be printing pictures of dangerously thin supermodels?
Well Mike who are these alleged anorexics pray?
In reply to abarro81:
If you are competing with yourself it's a zero sum game and so doing anything too weirdly performance enhancing and potentially unhealthy is pointless. If you are competing with others it stop becoming cheating and starts becoming acceptable and widely used and part of da rules (like cam, training, chalk and sticky rubber) in which case its OK, I think.
Creatine on nomenological basis is cheating. Sounds like Create. What are you Creat(ine)ing - Alex God of Climbing ? - Kneel before me and tremble...
If you are competing with yourself it's a zero sum game and so doing anything too weirdly performance enhancing and potentially unhealthy is pointless. If you are competing with others it stop becoming cheating and starts becoming acceptable and widely used and part of da rules (like cam, training, chalk and sticky rubber) in which case its OK, I think.
Creatine on nomenological basis is cheating. Sounds like Create. What are you Creat(ine)ing - Alex God of Climbing ? - Kneel before me and tremble...
In reply to GreatBigFat8aClimber: May I congratulate you on being a great big fat 8a climber. I think I have acknowledged that I am indeed a punter sufficiently during this thread. Tah for pointing it out though
In reply to abarro81: I understand what it does, I just don't understand why you would want to, that's all. As for training being cheating I think you might be putting words in my mouth. You know perfectly well what I mean by supplements. And besides, it's up to you what you do, just because I don't think I would want to do it, doesn't mean that you shouldn't. I just kind of saw what friends were doing and didn't understand why they would feel the need. Maybe that's because I climb because I enjoy being in the outdoors, putting myself in exposed positions that not many people get the chance to be in etc. rather than because I enjoy climbing hard... maybe that is my problem with it? I dunno - just musing aloud...
In reply to Grimpeur ancien: If you read on, I have specifically said I don't want to name people because I want to see if my perception is incorrect and see what others think.
In reply to mike kann:
To be stronger and fitter. To be able to turn up at the tor, crush all my projects and burn everyone off. To be able to go to europe and onsight 8b. For the fame, glory, cars and women. What that says to me is 'I can't be arsed to train, why would anyone want to bother with that', and yes, it's because different people get different things out of climbing.
Not really. I think I know what you mean, and my point is that you're drawing a line in the sand at a totally arbitrary point, somewhere around where products start being marketed at people involved in sports. I'd say draw it wherever the olympics and tour de france do (I have no idea if they ban creatine?). Seriously - if chocolate milk is ok and protein shakes aren't, what about the new milkshake I see in Tesco's which is marketed as a recovery drink?
Simon: I ain't no cheater, I don't take no creatine. I just take whey protein, l-glutamine, HMB and chocolate flapjack...
> (In reply to abarro81) I understand what it does, I just don't understand why you would want to, that's all.
To be stronger and fitter. To be able to turn up at the tor, crush all my projects and burn everyone off. To be able to go to europe and onsight 8b. For the fame, glory, cars and women. What that says to me is 'I can't be arsed to train, why would anyone want to bother with that', and yes, it's because different people get different things out of climbing.
> You know perfectly well what I mean by supplements.
Not really. I think I know what you mean, and my point is that you're drawing a line in the sand at a totally arbitrary point, somewhere around where products start being marketed at people involved in sports. I'd say draw it wherever the olympics and tour de france do (I have no idea if they ban creatine?). Seriously - if chocolate milk is ok and protein shakes aren't, what about the new milkshake I see in Tesco's which is marketed as a recovery drink?
Simon: I ain't no cheater, I don't take no creatine. I just take whey protein, l-glutamine, HMB and chocolate flapjack...
In reply to abarro81: I don't think it says that at all. Why does training have to involve taking supplements? The two do not need to go hand in hand. Just because other people might take it and you want for whatever reason to attain the same level as them... so maybe its ambition that is the difference between us?
As for supplements, yes I guess I am drawing an arbitrary line in the sand but don't we all? Climbing is full of arbitrary lines which are self imposed, otherwise trad climbing wouldn't exist, aid climbing in this country would not be scorned and you could use supplementary oxygen to get up Mont Blanc! All I'm saying is that in my arbitrary set of rules in my head, Creatine seems like overkill. I don't take protein supplements either but thats becasue I don't climb at a level at which I feel I would benefit. I would probably just get lardier
As for supplements, yes I guess I am drawing an arbitrary line in the sand but don't we all? Climbing is full of arbitrary lines which are self imposed, otherwise trad climbing wouldn't exist, aid climbing in this country would not be scorned and you could use supplementary oxygen to get up Mont Blanc! All I'm saying is that in my arbitrary set of rules in my head, Creatine seems like overkill. I don't take protein supplements either but thats becasue I don't climb at a level at which I feel I would benefit. I would probably just get lardier
In reply to mike kann:
Indeed, it was "I just don't understand why you would want to" that made it sound like the old anti-training balls. If you see why people would want to but don't yourself then that's fair enough.
My supplementation is to try to recover quicker, thus meaning I can do more sessions and harder sessions, thus getting stronger.
I take your point about artibrary lines.
Indeed, it was "I just don't understand why you would want to" that made it sound like the old anti-training balls. If you see why people would want to but don't yourself then that's fair enough.
My supplementation is to try to recover quicker, thus meaning I can do more sessions and harder sessions, thus getting stronger.
I take your point about artibrary lines.
I don't know if Mike was referring to Adam Ondra, as was suggested earlier, probably not.
I don't know him, but I would very much doubt that he even thinks obout his weight, or his calorie intake at all, let alone as much as any of the posters on this thread, including myself, and I am probably the fattest poster here at over 16st and 5'9"!, Some people don't need to worry about body compostion, but are blessed with a naturally thin/light body-type, and keep that for life.
Others have to focus very hard on not overeating, just so that they can fit into last-years trousers .
Some people (again, like me), the more they think about food intake,etc, the more they eat, to try and console themselves about never being thin/light etc....
I don't know him, but I would very much doubt that he even thinks obout his weight, or his calorie intake at all, let alone as much as any of the posters on this thread, including myself, and I am probably the fattest poster here at over 16st and 5'9"!, Some people don't need to worry about body compostion, but are blessed with a naturally thin/light body-type, and keep that for life.
Others have to focus very hard on not overeating, just so that they can fit into last-years trousers .
Some people (again, like me), the more they think about food intake,etc, the more they eat, to try and console themselves about never being thin/light etc....
In reply to abarro81: I can't say I'm big into training - I lack the motivation - it's near on an hour to get to UCR for me, so that means 2 hours driving to spend cash on training on plastic which I don't enjoy. I'd rather get down to cheddar and clip bolts when I can as I feel it improves my climbing more than climbing on plastic ever did. However that doesn't mean I don't treat THAT as training! I tend to bumble along, scaring myself on E2's and am slowly improving which keeps me happy and I feel that improvements I make are through learning to climb better, controlling my brain better and slowly getting stronger...
In reply to mike kann: Can't say Chris Sharma looks 'anorexic' to me? Slim, yes, but as others have said most top climbers DON'T look emaciated.
In reply to abarro81:
But potentially less healthy? There is certain medical opinion that excess protein over long periods can lead to a number of health problems (arthritis for one), so whilst the juries out I wont be buying £40 tubs of maxi-muscle chemicals and instead eat nice ingredients out of the ground. I will just have to accept that I might miss out on that 8b onsight, I will prob have a beer instead to commiserate myself.
> (In reply to mike kann)
> [...]
>
> To be stronger and fitter.
> [...]
>
> To be stronger and fitter.
But potentially less healthy? There is certain medical opinion that excess protein over long periods can lead to a number of health problems (arthritis for one), so whilst the juries out I wont be buying £40 tubs of maxi-muscle chemicals and instead eat nice ingredients out of the ground. I will just have to accept that I might miss out on that 8b onsight, I will prob have a beer instead to commiserate myself.
In reply to mike kann:
Like who?
Sharma - big strong lad
Klem Loskot - ditto
Hubers - again
Gaz Parry - same
John Dunne - Hmmm
Dave Macleod - Normally shaped (excluding the chin)
Caff - Normally shaped (if not very normal)
Dave Brikett - Not especially thin
Lucy Creamer - Normal athletic weight
I really struggle to think of any current top end climbers who fit an anorexic type description. A couple like Steve Mac and Andy Earl are pretty slender i guess but I suspect that's more down to natural body type than deliberate diet. Are you sure you haven't just imagined this whole thing?
It's OK for you to be big you know as long as you're happy with yourself you know, you don't have to get everyone else to bulk up to match.....
> I find it concerning that some leading climbers take their weight very seriously, to the point that they don't really look healthy any more.
Like who?
Sharma - big strong lad
Klem Loskot - ditto
Hubers - again
Gaz Parry - same
John Dunne - Hmmm
Dave Macleod - Normally shaped (excluding the chin)
Caff - Normally shaped (if not very normal)
Dave Brikett - Not especially thin
Lucy Creamer - Normal athletic weight
I really struggle to think of any current top end climbers who fit an anorexic type description. A couple like Steve Mac and Andy Earl are pretty slender i guess but I suspect that's more down to natural body type than deliberate diet. Are you sure you haven't just imagined this whole thing?
It's OK for you to be big you know as long as you're happy with yourself you know, you don't have to get everyone else to bulk up to match.....
In reply to neil the weak:
It's entirely possible. The more I get responses the more I realise this may well be true...
> Are you sure you haven't just imagined this whole thing?
It's entirely possible. The more I get responses the more I realise this may well be true...
In reply to mike kann: As a self-confessed obsessive about my power-to-weight ratio in the pursuit of achieving ever increasing grades of difficulty I can give you one piece of advice; you sound happy with your weight and ability, stick with that and don't worry about what anyone else in the sport looks like or achieves, that is for them to worry about. I am always verging on misery where mine is concerned; don't eat this, don't eat that, must hang off the finger bar, must do more...etc. On the other hand I also agree with one of your respondents in that I don't notice any well known climbers looking unhealthy or drawn as a result of their weight, quite the contrary, they mostly look seriously healthy.
In reply to neil the weak:
Dave MacLeod did a talk at Stowmarket a few months ago, and one of things I remember ('cos I thought it rather funny) was the comments he made about his weight.
He was doing his Echo Wall project, and to start it he needed to shift lots of snow from the top. He showed us two photos, and his comments went something like this :
"This is 10 stone Dave, he can shift this amount of snow in 6 days, but can't climb for toffee"
"This is 9 and a half stone Dave, he can climb at the level needed for Echo Wall, but is really grumpy when he wakes up, you really don't want to be near him before he's had breakfast!"
Even at 9½ stone he looked thin, but still healthy (definitely not emanciated), and it was obvious that 9½ wasn't his natural weight, was only necessary for the project he was doing, and also that losing any more weight wouldn't have been worth doing.
And it was a trade-off between feeling grumpy and horrible and climbing at your peak, or looking better and feeling happier and climbing at a bit less than your peak. I'll take the second one.
Of course 10 stone Dave can probably still climb an E9 or something...
Dave MacLeod did a talk at Stowmarket a few months ago, and one of things I remember ('cos I thought it rather funny) was the comments he made about his weight.
He was doing his Echo Wall project, and to start it he needed to shift lots of snow from the top. He showed us two photos, and his comments went something like this :
"This is 10 stone Dave, he can shift this amount of snow in 6 days, but can't climb for toffee"
"This is 9 and a half stone Dave, he can climb at the level needed for Echo Wall, but is really grumpy when he wakes up, you really don't want to be near him before he's had breakfast!"
Even at 9½ stone he looked thin, but still healthy (definitely not emanciated), and it was obvious that 9½ wasn't his natural weight, was only necessary for the project he was doing, and also that losing any more weight wouldn't have been worth doing.
And it was a trade-off between feeling grumpy and horrible and climbing at your peak, or looking better and feeling happier and climbing at a bit less than your peak. I'll take the second one.
Of course 10 stone Dave can probably still climb an E9 or something...
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