UKC

In this clip from the forth coming film Welsh Connections we see British climbing legend Johnny Dawes do battle with pitch 4 of his girdle traverse of Scimitar Ridge, Llanberis Pass, North Wales.

On being confronted by the large pendulum potential and hard climbing when he comes to follow the pitch, Johnny's climbing partner thinks better of it and opts not to follow...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=50403

In reply to UKC News:

That was brilliant! ... And inspiring enough to buy the DVD when it comes out. Having Dawes as such an influence when I started climbing makes it extra special to see him climbing nails stuff again

In reply to UKC News:

Love the attempted head jam to gain a rest.
The guy is a legend.

In reply to UKC News:

Absolutely glorious. The spirit of real climbing personified. I love the kind of inherent contradictions there - the cool, Zen-like Johnny getting very snappy indeed! So like my brother and I climbing when we were very young .. or rather, my brother snapping at me. My rope work was never right, somehow! Yet, the thing is my brother was right: I was a bit of wally with the ropework!

In reply to UKC News:

Stopped it after a while since it just seems to be and unpleasantly impatient fat man climbing a rubbish looking route with pegs in.

At least its put me off spending money on the DVD.

In reply to UKC News:

Superb soundtrack too. So many climbing videos now have absolutely atrociously inept music, and suddenly we have this, which is fantastically well-judged every inch of the way, yet is never obtrusive, never distracts us from the subject, but actually sharpens our focus on it a bit.

In reply to petellis:

You were probably fishing for this comment anyhow but, regardless, I'll oblige; shut up you tit.

In reply to UKC News:

Enjoyed the Dawes thing... Warts and all.

Liked the Geldard stuff too. Lots.

In reply to Clauso:

No, it wasn't a wind-up. I thought the grumpiness with his belayer really was unplesant and its not pretty climbing becase he clearly is unfit. I might be in a minority but really can't subscribe to the loving Jonny Dawes hype, it isn't a good video just becase its him.

In reply to petellis:
It's a good video because it's a bloke onsighting an E6, nevermind who. The fact that it's Johnny Dawes just makes it even better for most of us, because we like him and respect his place in climbing history. And his grumpiness with his belayer is probably because he's on difficult ground with a lot of rope drag and a darned good chance of coming off, not to mention the fact that he doesn't even know whether the holds are about to run out as it's a first ascent. Find the person who has never snapped at a belayer on a trad lead when they were shitting themselves...

You'll get no points for standing out from the crowd on this one...

In reply to petellis:
Not pretty climbing because he is clearly unfit....get out there and do better then!
JD older, although no wiser ,unfit and slapping still has more natural sense of balance and movement than most of the rest of us put together, and that's what makes him fun to watch. And judging from the lack of queue to follow or repeat this route he's still one of the boldest too!
I am thoroughly looking forward to this DVD appearing in my Xmas stocking.

In reply to petellis:Come on, your the grumpy one. I don't subscribe to the Jonny hype either, but you can't take away from how heart in mouth that was!

The fact that it was clearley onsight, and not rehearsed, added to the reality of the film that a lot of people could probably attach to, whatever grade you climb.

In reply to andyyyy:

I liked it as it was refreshing to watch something different from the over-rehearsed headpoint or redpoint.

Perhaps good style trad climbing might become 'sexy' again.

In reply to petellis:

Unfit? beceause He's puffing a bit on an E6? Compared to who? Compared to Steve Mclure yes. Compared to most, including, judging from your profile, you, no.

I'm sure you're a great guy in real life, but on this thread your doing an excellent impression of a tit.

In reply to petellis:

...who's onsighting a new E6.

If I ever onsight any E6, let alone a new route, i will undoubtedly be at the peak of my climbing fitness (i.e. way above what I am now!).

The fact that Dawes is capable of doing such a thing while not as fit as he was two decades ago is, to me, pretty cool.

I thought the film was awesome. Welsh Connections is already on order (though in fairness, it was already before I watched this clip).

In reply to petellis:

Oh dear. I gave a reasoned explanation as to why I didn't like the film. I'm sure all the things I didn't like are justified becasuse its a hard route onsight etc but for me it doesn't make the film good, compelling or plesant watching.

I don't think my own fitness is relevant, nobody has made a film of me climbing, posted it on the internet and invited comment. Please don't turn a disagreement about my critique of a film into personal attacks.

In reply to petellis:
I don't buy the Johnny Dawes thing either...but it is a great video that shows what it's really like: not "I'm in control and a perfect gentleman", or "look how dangerous it is but I'll give you the hollywood smile to show you how brave I'm".

Regarless of JD, the E6 grade or the fact that a fat and grumpy english man is being snappy...I enjoyed watching it.

In reply to UKC News:
Is he carrying a wooden wedge in the rack???

In reply to Mr Lopez:

No thats a (wire?) brush to get lichen/dirt off holds if needed

In reply to petellis: Funnily enough I think everything you dislike about this clip, I love. This isn't a criticism of you Pete, the world would be pretty grey if we all liked the same things. The fact that the climb, belayer, climber's temper and his waistline don't go smoothly makes this all the more refreshingly real. The ending is great, hats off to the belayer for making the right decision!

In reply to UKC News:
Agree with Ian. Great clip. So, did JD reverse the pitch to retrieve the gear, or ab it?

In reply to 1234None:

I think they abseiled and came back another day.

I've seen Welsh Connections and the JD bits are great: as well as this ascent...I mean crablike shuffle across the wall....he also comments on a lot of the ascents featured in this film: good value entertainment.

In reply to UKC News: Anyone else notice how little he chalks up. Does he even chalk up? It's a short pitch but i for one would be sweating a bucket.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Its OK - I wasn't the one hurling abuse or taking it personally. I can see your point, similar to Andy Kirkpatrick's live blogged ascent of the eiger perhaps (in terms of fitness/lack of it going smoothly)? Its just if you watch the next vid down Jack is clearly just as scared and stressed but he doesn't have to shout at his belayer. If I want to see climbers making a meal of a route that isn't cutting edge I can just go to the Peak on a weekend.

In reply to UKC News: Looked like a pretty poor route, more like something that happens when you go off route.

In reply to UKC News:

Brilliant stuff. Such a refreshing change - fighting for nearly every inch, getting a bit sweary at his belayer, which I'm sure a few of us have done when we're stressed out and pumped to oblivion.

In reply to keithpeck:

My God, I should hope not...

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Totally agree


I ve been waiting for vids of proper trad climbing for a long while now. Not the typical headpointing stuff although that is inspiring too. Its just so more awesome to watch people onsighting mid high egrades. The fear, uncertainty, fiddling with gear, routefinding, decision making and shaking.
It looks less polished and professional but more real, which in my book is a positive thing.

In reply to Scarab:

Also agree. Great video, and it goes to show that no matter what grade you climb at, you can be affected by stress, tension, insecurity, rope drag, and then experience the relief at getting to a secure belay. VDiff or E6, it's the same experience for that particular leader onsighting at their limit.

In reply to Scarab:


Except in this one all you see him do is clip pegs!

I always thought Mr Dawes was all about flow and movement and perfect balance, karma and all that jazz - it's nice to seem him wobbling, snatching, puffing and swearing on this like me on an E1!

In reply to TobyA:

Massive pendulum potential with E6 climbing... on sight... might be clipping pegs but its certainly a long way from 'sport' anyway. Besides, look closer, one rusty peg with a bunch of trad gear (nut and sling) followed by the wild traverse and 1 final peg at the end...

Do agree though, watching him in desperation going for the head jam is sure to mimic things we've all done desperate for a rest.

In reply to Silum: Interesting discussion. I thought it is worth mentioning that the film is premiering at Kendal tomorrow evening (before Asgard). Quite a bit more of Johnny in the full film. The DVDs have just arrived as well.

dave

In reply to Ian Parnell:


Agree - what a cracking effort!



Thank God he did. The 'crunch potential' looked ridiculous.

Mick

In reply to petellis:

i only saw him asking for slack, maybe a bit too sharply on the first few moves, then quite rightly when he was out of sight further on. didn't detract for me but to the realism....you of course are entitled to feel otherwise.

In reply to Caralynr: again I agree, great stuff. Great Video of Jack too, placing loads of gear becuase it all looks dodgy and testing all the hollow sounding holds followed by the obvious relief when he finds the 'thank god' jug.

In reply to petellis:

Pete, next time you climbing why not get a mate to film you and post it on UKC for to watch - I bet it would be great.

Johney is the Syd Barrett of UK climbing, not matter what he does I garantee it'd be of interest.

In reply to andy kirkpatrick:

Hehe, It'd be crap, I don't finish half my routes. Maybe I could make a bouldering vid, I'm much better at that.

Mind you I think I'll take a leaf out of JD's book next time I get a clusterf--k with the ropes and have to shout at my belayer "COME ON, THINK FOR ME!!!" Slightly more creative than just swearing like I normally do.

In reply to andy kirkpatrick:
That's a piss poor response, if you complained about the food in a restaurant and the chef said 'why don't you go in the kitchen and see if you can do better then' you'd be rightly aggrieved.
I didn't think it was a very good clip either, but because it's JD I'm not allowed to say that.

In reply to UKC News:
Didnt think he was particularly bad with the belayer, he's obviously stressed - I get like that on most of my routes! And it sounds like they're good mates from the film so I dont see the issue. Just seemed like a normal coupel of guys doing a route together and communicating!

I agree with Gordon abotu the soundtrack - much better than the ridiculous music that seems to be on, and completely spoil, most climbing videos these days.

Having said all that I wasnt particualrly taken wit hthe video - (a) because it doesnt look like a good route - it doesnt inspire me to think how great it would be if I was capable of climbing it, and (b) because I dont think much of the camera work - it was all a bit same-y and while he was on the hard bit there were no zoomed out shots showing the exposure.

In reply to petellis:

Looks like you two have something in common. xxx

In reply to petellis:

I'm with you on this (and as you know I'm a fan of shuffling traverses). It's not a pretty route*, it's not pretty climbing and it's not an especially inspiring clip.

*It probably climbs better than it looks but then I like this sort of thing.

No, I couldn't do better. Yes I'm a weak punter etc etc.

jk

In reply to Si dH:
He is rather terse in his responses, I imagine if he'd done that to his belalayers' on Stone Monkey they'd have laughed at him and fed him more slack. Perhaps 20 odd yrs of adulation and beer have gone to his head.Although it a staggering grade, he does look faintly silly in that Italian policeman's helmet with his paunch and his dad's shorts on. I suppose its hard to accept middle age when you are johnny Dawes.

In reply to Ada:

Never mind Dawes shouting for slack what about the belayer at the end when JD is taking in - 'slack on red, slack, SLACK FFS! DON@T PULL ME OFF!!!'

In reply to Ada:
he does look faintly silly in that Italian policeman's helmet with his paunch and his dad's shorts on. I suppose its hard to accept middle age when you are johnny Dawes.

FFS why don't you say his hair's a bit long and he should have gone to the hairdressers before making a movie!!!

In reply to krikoman:

His hair is a bit long and he really should have gone to his hair stylist before starring in a movie!

In reply to Richard123:

Yeah but in fairness most E6 pitches don't start by going downwards for 4 or 5 metres matey. Dawes is on toprope for most of the pitch.

In reply to petellis:

Ah the very reasons I liked it
I actually didn't find any grumpyness, at least no more then I would expect, and I think for that it made it real. We have all seen Johnny the legend and gasped in awe, and seen Johnny the bonkers commentator with his surreal statements but I found it a nice change to see Johnny the human, not quite as super fit as he was, struggling a bit on his climbing but still doing a route I would never be able to do. It isn't a good video just because it's him. It's a good video because it shows the struggle with a route that is familiar to all of us. For real gumpiness you ought to see me fing and blinding in extremis

In reply to UKC News:
Hi Jack,
Are you sure this is pitch 4? He's starting at King Wad, and I recall only 2 or three routes to the left of that within about 30 ft of crag!
As for the pitch, I'd rather lead it than second it looking at where the gear is!

Cheers
Graham

In reply to petellis: Do you have any idea how the 'impatient fat man' has played such a pivotal role in british climbing during the last 25 years? I guess not. I am not saying that johnny dawes is not impatient or that he is not heavier than he was in 1986 when stone monkey was made. I am not suggesting either that he is some kind of climbing saint. I am suggesting though that you look at indian face, the medium, the quarryman, the scoop at strone ulladale or any of the numerous hard grit routes that nobody was queing up to do back when they were done. There are not too many people in their 40s onsighting E6. I would stake a bet that you probably won't be one of them. Johnny Dawes has always followed a slightly odd path in british climbing playing by his own rules and long may he continue to do so. As for the pegs: I just have to echo a previous post and say again that you are obviously a clueless tit!

In reply to UKC News:
Nice to see your trip to 'Beris wasn't wasted Jim! Come on though, surely seconding the pitch was worth a punt, might have made a good video ??

In reply to mann9076:
Miaow!! Come on boys, play nice.

In reply to mann9076:

I'm not sure what your point is here... you can't make me like the video clip by repeatedly telling me how amazing JD is.

In reply to andy kirkpatrick:


A comment that could be interpreted in many ways! But is it even remotely appropriate? One aspect of Syd Barrett's fame was that he essentially vanished after leaving Pink Floyd. For example, he didn't pop up running incomprehensible coaching sessions in psychedelic guitar.

In reply to mann9076:

Stop calling pete a clueless tit, he was expressing his opinion about a video clip, which I for one agree with on many points.

Why just because Johnny is/was famous doesnt mean that the video clip is any better!


Sam

In reply to UKC News: I think we are suffering from climbing dvd saturation, crap film but novelty value with dawes doing a new route. Preferred watching jack onsite the E7, that was gripping viewing

In reply to Sam Mayfield:


Firstly Sam, your sentence doesn't make sense (see above). All sentences opening with a question prefix must end with a question mark and not an exclamation mark! Secondly, I think that Mr Dawes has made enough of a contribution to the wonderful whole that is british climbing not to be referred to as an 'impatient fat man'. That was the point!

In reply to mann9076:

Oh grow up.


But you can't deny in the film he lives up to both of those attributes. Is he your dad or something? You need to stop taking it personally.

In reply to Sam Mayfield:

I disagree. It's a great video clip. The film, WELSH CONNECTIONS, which Dawes features in, climbing and commenting, is a great film and an even better historical record.

Particulary I like James McHaffie at Gogarth, the Tim Emmett bit at Pembroke, Pete Robins doing Liquid Ambar.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Great to see Mr. Dawes in later years still cranking away, losing his temper, getting hot and sweaty, in baggy shorts, bit of a paunch.

Well filmed as well.

Good one.

In reply to petellis:



he he he.....
given that a true 'Trad' ascent has to be onsight -(redpointing is sport regardless of protection)
how is onsighting E6 not 'cutting edge'?
to my knowledge no-one has onsighted harder than E7?
feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but the closest so far to a true E8 ascent was Alex Honnold on Gaia which he didn't claim due to having seen the moves on Hard Grit.
E6 onsight is as cutting edge as a worked E10 as far as i'm concerned
but then who am i?
but then who are you?

In reply to Will Cox:
James Pearson on-sighted End of the Affair.

i stand corrected, thanks

In reply to andy kirkpatrick:

You're completely missing the point of petellis's critique of the clip, which I felt was perfectly valid. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the clip, but I didn't disagree with his comments either.

In reply to Will Cox: Dave Birkett's done I think 3 E8 onsights (1 at Nesscliffe, 1 at Dove Crag and I think one somewhere else I don't recall). E6 onsight is still pretty damn impressive for me though, let alone E6 onsight 1st ascent (which you won't see everyday in the Peak, from an impatient fat man or not!). Enjoyed the clip for what it's worth, looking forward to the DVD, not sure if I can make myself wait until Xmas for it...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The only clip I saw was the Johnny one so that is the only one I can comment on, I found it boring, but thats MY opinion, how can you disagree with someones opinion, you cant!

Its a great clip in your opinion!

When I watch the whole film then I will be able to comment, but thats not what I was talking about.

Sam

In reply to mann9076:

You are so clever and I am so stupid, I really should pay more attention when writing on something so important as UKC!

Next time I cross over into this horrible bitchy world I will try to get someone to proof read me.

"impatient fat man" was not the point as I read it.

Sam

In reply to Sam Mayfield:

Anyone guessed who mann9076 is yet?

Someone used to posting on here I would guess and not a newbie as the L would lead us to believe!

Sam

In reply to Will Cox:
Because people do it too often.

It's not though, is it. Lots of my friends have onsighted E6s (check me the f*ck out) but none of them have done E10. Or E9 for that matter.

E6 onsight on a new route's pretty-fly-for-a-fat-impatient-guy though

In reply to UKC News:

I've hardly a clue who Johnny Dawes is and not remotely interested in what he might have done for UK climbing or his celebrity status. The footage is grand though!

While plenty of impressive climbing footage exists, none has captured my "epic" experiences of off-route, roped dragging, head jamming, belayer out of earshot, pumped uncertainty of what lays ahead, as this did. And I'm not sure I've even seen an E6, let alone considered climbing one.

Brilliant! I'd love to see more of it.

In reply to UKC News:

Great DVD with a lot of variety thrown in - loved the fact there is footage of trad, sport and bouldering.

There really is something for everyone - a much better dvd than some of the others i have watched.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Totally agree. It's pure triumph of the will stuff. It's like watching George Best or Mohammed Ali come back decades later, when the body has sagged but the mind is still pushing through barriers.

He's giving it some. FFS, he's panting like a walrus at the start but he goes on, and on, and on. He's giving it all that he's bloody well got - and more. Streetly did the first ascent of Bloody Slab when he was a 'beginner' - and, supposedly, a crap beginner at that. It's the same kind of deal.

It's f*cking great - so there!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Maybe it´s more enjoyable to people that have struggled like that in real life?

Or just old men that like the clip? ;oP

Sam

In reply to UKC News:
This clip is brill, just for the fact that we've all done/said similar things! Especially love the bit where JD uses his head as a jam! Innovative!

In reply to Sam Mayfield:

Hi Sam,

You could well be right. It may be more appreciated by strugglers and old men (who, by definition, have to struggle - yes, even Stevie too.) But if climbing - and living(?) - is about the joy of struggle then, for me, this clip is an absolute winner.

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to UKC News:
all I can add - anyone who thinks that clip shows a poor display of obestity, age, bad temper and unremarkable climbing ability would faint dead away on meeting some of my mates...

It's a good motivational video - I'm now determined more than ever not to have that paunch in my 40s

Plus, without wanting to denigrate the achievement, to the posters who above commented along the lines of "see if you can do better in your 40s"... plenty of Japanese climbers out here in their 50s and 60s doing exactly that. Plenty climbing hard stuff (12s, 13s and 14s), without the paunch, and with style. No offense to JD intended.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Setting aside whether Johnny is too grumpy/fat/whatever, to me the real issue with this clip is - what a cr*p route!! I mean, about 20' of meaningless traversing on no real "line" - what was the point? (it may be hard/runout etc, but so what)...

..or have I missed something?

In reply to SARS:


I certainly agree with you about the standards that a lot of older guys out here in Japan are climbing at, but I'm not sure as many as you might be implying are doing it on trad gear, as there just isn't that much trad rock out here that hasn't been bolted. And then how many of them are doing it at those grades on onsight first ascents?

Tony

In reply to Nic:


Yes, you have... that 20' was the fourth pitch of the route.

In reply to TonyG:
I'm not sure as many as you might be implying are doing it on trad gear, as there just isn't that much trad rock out here that hasn't been bolted. And then how many of them are doing it at those grades on onsight first ascents?

I agree not many doing it on trad because as you say there just isn't that much. However, plenty of hard onsights being done, although maybe not that frequently.

Put these guys in the UK for a year and I'm sure they would tear the trad grades up. Particularly as I think Japan grades tend to be stiff compared to UK/Europe.

Anyway point stands. Age alone is no excuse for letting yourself go...

In reply to TonyG:

Ah, OK, I stand (or sit) corrected then. In which case why choose that as the clip I wonder, it hardly inspired me to get the DVD!

In reply to SARS:


Agreed, and it simply amazes me what so many Japanese people in their 60s, 70s, even 80s are capable of doing... I was on Mt Tsurugi in the N Alps this September at the same time as an 86-year old bloke, and he was taking it all in his stride. 2 weeks ago at the Mt Jinba Trail Race there was a 75-year old bloke putting in a hell of a good time. And these guys are nothing really special... lots of old timers still doing the business out here. I often wonder what it is that keeps them so healthy... diet? A lifetime of hard work and a tough mental constitution? I hope I've got a fraction of it when I'm in my 70s!!!

Tony

PS Just random musings about Japan... not connected in any way to Johnny Dawes

In reply to UKC News: I'm coming to this late in the day and without wanting to read through the 82 previous messages more than it took to see some thought it was crap and some didn't, I probably needn't bother posting ... but for what it is worth:

I think this video sums up what climbing is all about...

If you have never got hot, sweaty, pumped, freaked out and cranky then perhaps it doesn't gel. Personally I found it pretty gripping viewing. The desparate nature of the climbing, coupled with the obvious fact that this was close to the climber's limit on that day just brings back all the best bits about onsighting to me. Doesn't matter who the climber is...I was watching it feeling like I WAS THERE. That is why, for me, it is a good clip.

I also think that the level of grumpyness, having read the thread before watching the clip, was overplayed by some commenters, especially given that, at the end, the belayer is equally snappy as he starts to climb. I don't now how well the two know each other but from my experience it is acceptable between good friends who climb together often to make comments in extremis that are taken for what they are and not given a second thought.

In reply to UKC News: Has climbing turned into a fashion show?

When did how you look or how old you are or what you are wearing become worthy of comment?


"I see that Joe Brown put up a load of routes in the Peak district"
"Yeah, but did you see what he was wearing, it's an outrage!!"

Surely, climbing is about climbing, the rest of the sh!te is for 14 year old girls swigging cider on the park swings.

I don't care whether you like him / the video / how he clipped the pegs, but is there any need to be that personal? It's banal.

I have to agree with Andy above, I was there doesn't really matter who it was or how good the route is. I was climbing it with him, so it worked for me.

In reply to UKC News:

I agree with the last two posts. I loved the clip.
Slapping for holds, trying to find rests which aren't there, at my limit.
I can totally relate to that and the grade is irrelevent.
That's what it's all about for me.

Enty

In reply to TonyG:

A lifetime of low fat sashimi, white rice and eating with chopsticks. Combine that with respect for society, good looking women and fast trains and you have a recipe for climbing well in to your 90s.

I do have a theory on Japanese old age which goes against the grain of use it or lose it biology: extreme hygene and general cleanliness. As they aren't being ravaged from a young age by germs and disease, the Japanese appear healthier in later life....in stark contrast to you typical English porker.

In reply to Enty: At the Kendal film festival this weekend there was a panel discussion called Climbing spirit or sport, or something like that. I think the differing reactions to this clip probably depend where you view climbing on that continuum.

Also the theory that there may be legions of Japanese pensioners who are better trad climbers than Johnny Dawes has got to be a potential UKC classic!!

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Well no offense Ian but I'm at the crags in Japan every weekend and you aren't. As we already noted above there's not much trad here so no-one is saying that. There are certaintly 50+ year olds pulling 5.14s though, whether you care to believe it or not.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Tosh. Reactions to the clip probably depend more on personal BMI, I'd guess. Talking of which, why do they call you "Bubba"?


Or just accurate perhaps? Even in lardy unhealthy Britain, there are quite a few climbers in their 50s and 60s climbing at a pretty high level, no? Back with the Japanese, Yuji Hirayama is only marginally younger than JD and just did Cobra Crack (5.14 R, E10?).

In reply to tobyfk: Dear me Toby you do seem to take these things all rather seriously. Some of my friends call me Bubba because Ive got a belly and I still climb harder than them in the mountains (thats called a smiley by the way)

So there are LEGIONS of Japansese PENSIONERS climbing harder TRAD than Johnny Dawes. Well then I'm very impressed I still think it's a great film clip even if it turns out Johnny is a punter out east.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Possibly ... possibly not!

Anyway, respect to JD for preserving his cult status for so many years.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Ian, you were the only one who said "legions", "pensioners" and "trad". I simply made the point that old does not have to equal unfit and that I know some 50+ out here doing 5.14 (sport to clarify though I thought it was obvious).

BTW, I also enjoyed the video. Also, as I said, motivational.

In reply to Ian Parnell:


Hey, great route name!

I guess there's somewhere where we're all punters or, err, perhaps invert the dubious logic and posit that there's somewhere where we're not punters. (Phew, that seems safer!)

And what, one wonders, does the aforesaid Johnny think:

1. 'Wish I'd never feckin' left the deck...'

2. 'I tried... Dear Lord I tried... But I just couldn't impress enought of those punters, err critics on UKC.'

3. 'Hey, who gives a shit?"

Let's hope it's the latter.

Mick

In reply to petellis:

What are you talking about?
JD hardly says a word to the belayer who was caught daydreaming by the cameraman a couple of times. A lot of seconds are fooking clueless when it comes to anticipating the need for slack at crucial times.
I agree he is fat and unfit but I can relate to that.

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

To be fair on the belayer, the rope drag looks excessive (not helped by a first clip which probably could have done with a bit of extension). Also, pretty hard to see or hear what is going on ahead, maybe.

In reply to UKC News: You know, even better than this great little clip of climbing, are the responses from people that keep mentioning his belly,it gives me far more desire to prove how well climbers with belly`s can perform as they get older, and how technique can overcome absolute fitness and strength, especially when climbing in the unknown!

Go on Mr Dawes, do your stuff!

In reply to UKC News: go Johnny go... duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude..

In reply to markmcgowan01:

After watching the clip of this on Welsh Connections, I think it says a lot about UK climbing, that so many people worship this guy.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Now that is what you call highly ambiguous. Nice.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Not a Jonny-worshipper personally but I don't understand your comment.... care to elaborate?

In reply to phil kelly:

have you watched the clip?

and when I say UK climbing- I mean climbing in england, not UKC.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

In which case you should say what you mean!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sorry, but I'm talking about equating the UK to England, not Johnny Dawes!

In reply to Franco Cookson: What do you mean by that then?

In reply to Franco Cookson: K, sorry Franco. I have a habit of exaggeration.

In reply to stewieatb: no worries.

In reply to Franco Cookson: You dont think theres any art in fine movement, rythm and contorl then? You are a trogoolidite!

In reply to tonanf: or art in beautiful location, amazing rock formation, art in adventure and endurance and pasion?

In reply to tonanf:

not really no.

In reply to Franco Cookson: You based that opinion on one clip from the Welsh Connections video? It's not really a fair picture of what he's achieved.

Have you seen him in Stone Monkey?

In reply to jezb1:

Nope. Onsights and stuff.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I don't know him either but as far as pretending goes if he was pretending or not all I can say about his 'madness' is Indian Face. That's not really pretending is it?

Genuinely, what do you think about Indian Face?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, if you look at grit history you'll see Johnny's name against some of the real breakthrough routes of the '80s and '90s, routes like Gaia and End of the Affair (amongst the first E8s) as well as technical masterpieces like Smoked Salmon (possible 7b?).

He achieved these by amongst other things having a highly individualised approach to fluid and dynamic movement; he's short and not a powerhouse but was able to solve LGPs because his understanding of movement (especially on grit) was ahead of the curve.

For an example of what I'm on about, watch the film of Katy Whittaker on the crux of Kaluza Klein. To get to a good hold on the arete she has to do a wierd horizontal fast-feet move which is almost a controlled fall/loss of balance to set up for the hold. Archetypal Dawes; I posit that nobody was doing that kind of climbing before him, and certainly not in groundfall territory as KK is. These routes dont get onsighted for a reason.

In a way it's a shame that JD is best remembered for Indian Face; although it is a blood-chilling piece of committment his grit routes showcase his technical ability far better for me. So maybe he's a bit older, tubbier and gets gripped on E6s; so what? His place in climbing history is assured.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Let's congratulate him on the routes he's climbed then, rather than people loving the BS he talks.

'you've got to love johnny' and such statements just seem a cheesy encouragement to spout crap.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I don't know about spouting crap. On the one occassion that I met him, he was engaging, eloquent and entertaining. Not necessarily more so than anyone else, but coupled with what he's achieved, it's not hard to see why he's held in high regard.

You may consider some of his notions to be slightly ridculous, as do I, but don't worry about it; life's rich pageant and all that.
Cheers,
Tom

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Oh the irony!

In reply to jdunnesbicep: Is there no way you could have got across your opinion without sounding like an angry child?

In reply to Rob15:

Nope cause he's a chode.

In reply to jdunnesbicep:

And you're incorrect actually. First of all I haven't heard of him onsighting any E6s recently and second of all I aspire to be better than him, not top rope classics like the Indian Face.

In reply to Rob15: some times one has to just put the boot in! : -) ts good for the newbee maybe learn faster and get better quicker - a good result all round!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Ambition is a great thing.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Hahahaha.

In reply to Franco Cookson: haha chode best insult ever.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Hey Franco,

You might be right that he's not "all that" anymore. I'd put money that when you're well into your 40's you won't be all that either. If you can hold onto enough technique and skill to still put up an E6 girdle traverse you'll be doing well. Especially if you peak as young as Johnny. With his taste in routes if he'd continued with the sort of projects he set himself as a young man I doubt he'd still be with us.

Meanwhile you come across as a tw*t. If you were currently equalling or beating him at his best then you might be justified in being snippy about the man. You can aspire all you want, you've not put up yet. If he's a "has been" you're a "never was". There's a catchy phrase that suggests what those who can't put up should do...

I'm impressed that when "unfit" he's able to do a route like this and I find it much more inspirational because of my lack of athleticism. Kinda removes a lot of excuses for people like me. Maybe his video is aimed at a different audience than you?

In reply to Wrongfoot:

you're not reading what I wrote though are you?

In Welsh Connections he makes a ludicrous comment about how Pete Robins et al aren't at his level yet.

I was criticising his personality, not his climbing ability.

But like all UKC idiots just read what you want to hear.

In reply to Wrongfoot: So in order to comment on other people as a person and not a climber you have to be able to climb better than them? Franco is just questioning certain aspects of Johnny Dawes as a whole, not his climbing, and why he is SO adored by English climbers to the point that he could do or say what he wanted and people would still be feverishly looking for a change of underwear. If Franco had climbed a few harder routes than he had, this is not questioning any of Franco's achievements which I think are deserving of a fair bit of respect if only for the balls he has shown to do them, would anyone here who has a problem with him questioning Dawes as a person suddenly decide everything Franco says or does is just a loveable quirk of a great Brittish climber? Does climbing a few grades harder make your views on other people's personalities any more pertanent? No does it bollocks.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


That is somewhat ludicrous. I agree.

In reply to melonmike:


This is really what I want to challenge. Those people who see Johnny as some sort of god who can't do anything wrong. If I was climbing as well as the welsh lot and Johnny was prancing around saying how it will be 'interesting to see if reach his level' i'd expect people to to be give him the abuse users on here seem to give me.

Anyone who thinks I'm arrogant should really watch welsh connections. Being good isn't an excuse for being a chode.

In reply to Rob15: Why bother, best to get to straight to the point and say what you're all trying to.

In reply to jdunnesbicep:

If you have a name and profile picture you can insult me as much as you like. In your current state you're just a coward.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I do wish you all the best with your climbing career Franco, your aspirations are great and I'd be delighted if you succeed. It takes a driven mindset and strong personality to get where you want to go so it's understandable that you have strong opinions.

But you're making mistakes here. I recall Richard Simpson sounded off about all sorts too from what I saw it didn't help him much. He was walking the walk too, you've a way to go yet, but you might get there. I thought the girdle traverse you did the other year was fun and exciting.

Saying you think Johnny Dawes personality is rubbish or that he's a verbose bullshitter isn't going to help you with sponsorship or support. You'll just alienate people so they want you to fail. In many peoples eyes he's earned the right to be a bit like that. It's no good to you grumbling about it. If you're successful you'll learn to play a savvy game over time, it's part of the process, meanwhile you could minimise your mistakes a bit. I did say and mean you were coming across as a tw*t I'm sure you're actualy not that bad.

Pete et al can all speak for themselves you know? You might know more than me? Have any of them taken on TIF successfully? What routes that they've done do you think comparable?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Exactly if Johnny Dawes didn't have the climbing ability he had and came on these forums nobody would give him the time of day. Just because he has achieved some incredible feats shouldn't make his personality unquestionable. I have the utmost respect for him as a climber, I don't know the man personally and so I'm not going to go out of my way to defend everything about him like some on here do.

In reply to jdunnesbicep: yeah maybe on an issue that actually matters. But when somebody brings up what is actually a fairly reasonable point I don't think it's particularly necessary to call them an pri*k to be honest.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Lesson for young wide-o, never over use a good but unusual insult. (chode)

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I predict that you will be banned again quite soon. Probably not for the above, but for something of its ilk. Despite initial attempts to walk the line following your reinsatement, you are now getting increasingly worked-up about silly things, and are starting to snap at people. Chill it out man.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Whatever.

In reply to La Volpe:


sorry just on my mind a lot recently after the operation.

In reply to jdunnesbicep: nice one. you've really got your point across here.

In reply to Rob15: To quote the fool, when asked what he bases his opinions on- "Nope. Onsights and stuff." As I said.

In reply to Wrongfoot:

I don't have deep desires for sponsorship and i'd prefer to speak my mind and challenge what a lot of people tend to accept, just so they can fit in.

I know I come across as a bitter youth who is a fair way off achieving anything like Dawes, and I am. But I still think my points about Johnny's arrogance are pretty valid, and if people want to alienate me from the climbing community because I'm not willing to worship an person who say's pretty outrageous things then so be it.

In reply to jdunnesbicep: Andy?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Franco, surely you have seen jdunnesbicep at Malham cove - i remember seeing it warming up on Obsession for breakfast - up and down. i also climbed with Johnny Dawes and he was great fun to be around as well as controversial - but he was doing the worlds hardest traditional routes of the time - so try googling them

In reply to markmcgowan01: Did John Dunne ever onsight owt?

In reply to Franco Cookson: hilarious...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Eh? Am I missing something, or is the whole point of the article not about him on-sight FA'ing an E6?

In reply to Franco Cookson: It's not about fitting in, it's about showing respect- a concept you obviously have no concept of. So you think he says some wild things, so what. He's Johnny Dawes, he's earned the right to say whatever the f*ck he wants.

In reply to jdunnesbicep: In relative terms though. Johnny Dawes has put up some amazing routes and been at the forefront of British climbing so Franco can't question his personality. Franco climbs a lot harder than me, has put up some very impressive routes and is only getting better so if I wanted to I would have no right to take isse with anything he says? Who decides at what point you can say whatever you like? Johnne Dunne was onsight soloing E5 at 14 for example so I disagree with Franco on that but I should have more respect for Franco because of what he has done so I can't actually voice my criticism. Johnny Dawes has the authority and respect to talk about climbing and for people to listen but that doesn't mean people can't disagree.

In reply to UKC News: I still insist that there is art in form and movement. Even the 'art' of seeing and following a line. Not wanting to criticise personality of any one, is Franco a mostly sport climber?

In reply to melonmike:


Was this post one huge joke? Meant to be sarcastic or something? I couldn't really tell.

I have no respect for people just because they climb hard stuff. I think this is a great attitude to have.

In reply to fishy1: Yes, in essence all but the last sentance was sarcastic. I was asking if what I said is represantative of how some people on here think life should work.

In reply to all:


I'm amazed this debate has happened. Johnny climbs hard, says what he likes. So does Franco. So do I (except the climbs hard bit - I sort of climb squishy rather than hard) No skin off my back, or any of yours. It's no issue!

In reply to bouldery bits: I don't think climbing ability should influence people's views, if you choose to not speak against said person then fine. If you start agreeing with people just because they climb E9 thats a bit sad. If however you choose not to challenge their views because of ability and accomplishment, thats cool.

To start wading in with 'you haven't climbed what he's climbed' and 'say that when you climb harder' is just ridiculous.

In reply to phil kelly:

Yes I've watched the clip, but I can't see any other reason for your comments than to stir up a completely pointless 'debate'.

A few lessons in humility wouldn't go amiss, I feel.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I think he he was joking about the 'Pete Robins' comment. I like you, think there are some odd comments from people on UKC, but none more than you.

In reply to Dave Warburton: Are you Franco's keeper?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

http://www.johnnydawes.com/Indian_Face.htm

Read this

In reply to andyyyy: I generally have similar views as Franco and funnily enough Vice Versa.

That's a shock?

Oh no, wait, we're best mates no it isn't...

In reply to Dave Warburton: On reflection after a good nights sleep - i remember thinking thati was the dogs baws when i was 18. if tinternet was around with my thoughts as a young ambitious climber then its hard to say what trouble i would have got myself into...

i remember thinking I was better, but never saying it out loud - until i met Johnny in wales where he demonstrated an affinity with the rock that i had never seen before. i was younger than you Franco and climbing well with E6 onsite second ascents solo in the slate quarries of Llanberis and loving it.

the best plan is to climb with the best or get yourself into their den and LEARN from them, until they cant teach you anymore... then you are there dude...

regards Mark

good luck and im out on this one..

In reply to UKC News: Interestingly enough, the "angry young man" that Franco comes across as, reminds me a lot of the young Johnny Dawes. I can remember him annoying various people in the Peak before he had climbed any significant routes.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

WTF is a chode?

In reply to phil kelly:

unpleasant by most definitions...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chode