UKC

Hi

I've noticed a certain problem with my grades. Now, I haven't done much sport climbing yet, but after doing a good few indoor and outdoor routes, I've realised I've got a problem with leading!

So far I've managed to onsight F6c, and flash F6c+ on toprope. But I've never climbed harder than F6a+ when leading. I've never redpointed, and I'm not good enough to need to.

Is it normal for these differences in grades? I'm starting to think I have a psychological commitment problem when leading or something. Or is it just due to pumping out when clipping? I can't understand it. I took a pretty large fall recently (about 15-20ft), my first "proper" fall, so I should be over the psychological thing. But I just can't get my leading grade up!

Any help?

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

HAve you tried toproping a 6b loads of times til you know it off by heart then leading it? Sounds simple but tends to work.

Just because you fell doesn't necessarily mean you are over the psychological thing. Could be working the opposite way.

Worth a try anyway...

Ellie

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: you may find that on the lead, you're using extra (unnecssary) energy to hold on with, especially when you're fumbling clips! noticing when you're doing this and making a conscious effort to calm down seems to help me anyhow!

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Hi,

Maybe you're right about the pumping out when clipping thing. Do you find yourself faffing with the clip or are you smooth? I had a cheeky look at your profile and noticed that you boulder Font6b+ so the crux moves on a F6c+ should be no problem if you have the stamina.

For the walls I go to (Foundry and Edge), the lead grades seem harder than the top rope grades anyway so this may play a part.

When you're below the crux moves on a lead and feeling pumped do you worry about falling? Do you hesitate and/or get tempted to shout take? or do you just go for it and run out of steam anyway?

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
can't understand that. If you are trying to get better on sport routes you need to work routes, regardless of grade.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

There is no minimum level. And to be honest if your problem is not being able to translate your toproping ability to the lead rope I'd have thought its the ideal solution - get on your 6c+ on toprope a few times, get it wired, and then get on it on lead and see what happens. The "zone" you get into when youre really flowing on a redpoint is a good one since it shuts out other distractions, gets you used to pulling hard moves on lead, potentially gets you used to taking falls (if you're in that zone the fall will probably come as a complete surprise so you don't get the chance to agonise over how bad its about to be and things), you build in the extra stamina of clipping - whats not to like about it?

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:


Yes you are good enough, a 6c/+ flash is a pipedream for me. Have a play redpointing, I bet you'll be straight into the mid 7s if the routes you've done have been accurately graded and we're not just talking one-offs with a following wind


Could be either or both but my bet is it's mostly psychological, you're probably climbing slower and more deliberately while leading, you may also be overgripping with nerves if it's not 100% familiar being on the sharp end.

Some of this you'll already know. Do you climb slower, fumble clips, pump out, have to fight your belayer for slack etc etc?

jk

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: The best thing you can do for your self is actually get someone to record you climbing. Better do it when it's quiet cos your camera person need to be steady unless using a tripod.

The thing is you will learn from your mistakes when you are more concious of what you are actually doing. I get negative when people are climbing next to me particularly, if they stray on to my route!

But recording your mistakes you can see were you need to improve in posture etc, try it!

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

When I had a similar difference in lead/top rope grade the single best thing for me was to practice falling. There shouldn't really be a difference in lead/top rope grades as you should have equal confidence that if you fall off in either situation the system is safe and you won't hit the ground.

There are lots of threads on here about falling (search for clip-drop or something) and once you're confident about it you should only be using a top rope when working something harder than you've climbed before.

Getting a swift clipping technique is very useful too so if you're a geek like me set up a quickdraw at home and practice clipping it with either hand and with the quickdraw facing different directions until it's one quick movement. Watch how quickly Sharma clips when climbing Dreamcatcher (search on youtube).

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: The other thing about top-roping is it does give you a bit of 'aid', especially if your belayer keeps the rope tight, which can help you up stuff you'd struggle to lead even if your head was completely in gear. When top-roping, you could try making sure your belayer doesn't pull you too tight on the rope - so you don't get that help. Also, a slightly slacker rope might feel a little more like being 'at the sharp end'

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

You have had some decent advice on this thread, I am probably only going to repeat what has been said.

First off, I wouldn't say that grade spread was unusual particularly if you haven't been leading long. I think leading, especially when you start out, is a specific skill which you need to conquer in its own right. The biggest factors here will be psychological, and are learned just like physical technique but in my experience take longer and are harder won unless you naturally 'have a head for it'.

I agree with everyone so far who has said there is no minimum standard for redpointing, and I do think it would help from what you have said. It would mean you can separate out the psychological elements of leading near your physical limit from technique and also the specific issues of onsight climbing. Even if you start out redpointing something you would consider easy (my first outdoor redpoint was 6a+) don't underestimate the confidence boost you can get from redpointing something harder than you have onsighted, for convincing yourself of how you could onsight in an ideal world.

When I started out leading indoors I got to onsighting 6a+ fairly rapidly but did notice that things slowed down significantly from there. The things that helped were getting stronger through bouldering, so I knew I had the ability to do the moves (it sounds like you have done this) and just lots and lots of leading to get used to climbing above your clip. Mix in a large amount (say 50%) of leading within your limit where you feel completely unbothered. People do not learn well when they are scared, and if you are spending a large amount of your lead time trying to push your grade, you will a) be learning poor technique, and b) be conditioning yourself to associate leading with feeling scared.

Do continue to try to push your grade on lead however.


In all likelihood there is not one single factor. It is most likely the reult of all these things. You are pumping out when clipping which is making you stressed, which affects your mindset making it harder to continue to press on upwards, which makes you more pumped, which means you start fumbling clips, which makes you more stressed etc. etc. etc. What you could do is to strip out all of the elements and practice them individually. If you clip slowly, practicing leading within your grade will help. You can also specifically practice clipping by getting a quickdraw and a bit of rope and practicing clipping in its various orientations. Do it while watching TV or something until it is like second nature and you can do it without having to focus on it.

Intimidation when leading is a big factor and can be addressed through a number of strategies. There are tons of climbers who don't think too much about this and just crack on with doing lots of it, and this works fine for many. Personally I am quite an introspective person and find this stuff fascinating so quite like the conscious mental process. Isolating what's going on with something so open-ended as 'intimidation' or 'a bad lead head' is a big job in itself and will likely take a number of years, so settle in for the long haul. There are top competition climbers who still have lead head problems if they haven't done it for a while, don't assume that there is a quick-fix, or that once fixed, it is fixed for good.

There are lots of things that could be going on, fear of failure, fear of success (yes, it happens) fear of falling, fear of being out of control - but all of these fears are large categories and lots of quite specific things can all be lumped together into the same pot. It's a complex beast and that is part of why climbing is brilliant. Simply trying to analyse why you are intimidated is a good start, and then working out strategies for dealing with specific fears using general techniques (eg. progressive desensitisation) is a good way to start chipping away at it.

There are some good mental training books out there, The Rock Warrior's Way is good but is written in very Americanised language and is offputting for some. I think there are some powerful ideas in there though and he takes an all-round holistic approach which considers all angles, so it's worth persevering IMHO.

Performance Rock Climbing (the psychedelic coloured one) is getting a bit dated now (there are better books out there for the physical side of climbing) but still has a good section on the psychological side and some practical mental tactics for dealing with it, such as visualisation and 'progressive desensitisation' for dealing with things that intimidate you.


Just want to pick up on this, don't assume that one whipper will 'cure' a fear of falling overnight. Dave Mac makes this point better than I can:

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2009/07/beating-fear-of-falling-in-...

There is also a thread on here at the moment where we were specifically discussing fear of falling which also has more links you could explore.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=383042

Hope there is some stuff of interest in that ramble.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Sometimes the elite climbers give this impression that "you shouldn't need to redpoint until you're climbing high 7s and 8s". It's nonsense.

While it's true that most routes below 7a are graded more for the onsight than the redpoint, there's no reason at all why somebody can't redpoint a 5+, let alone a 6c.

Maybe next time you go sport climbing try to find a nice 6b+ or 6c and work the moves on it, figure out the crux, find the good holds and best positions, then go for the redpoint. It's very satisfying.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Nice post with some great info and advice, thanks for taking the time to write this.

I'm working through similar processes at the moment. It seems there are no shortcuts, and in some strange way I'm glad that there aren't. Time and experience are great 'healers' though.

Climbing requires you to be a very rounded individual, and I'm not taking about physical shape there. You have to be strong both mentally and physically, amongst other things, to climb well. That's part of the challenge and that's why I love it!

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

I am starting to appreciate that people vary massively in how big a factor the psychological element of climbing is in pushing ones self.

Some people just don't have a problem climbing at their limit above a massive winger, they could be on a top rope for how it affects their climbing. Other people, well, find it harder to a greater or lesser extent.

There is sometimes a perception that just because something is 'all in your mind' that it is easy to correct. Actually I think the converse is true, it is easy to look at your climbing and notice you are weak on slopers, or weak on gaston/press moves, but a lot harder to deal with psychological fears as they often don't come with convenient labels making them easy to identify, and they often get dumped into general pots like 'intimidation' or 'poor lead head' and the first job is to work out exactly what is holding us back.

I think there are tactics that can speed up the process though. Addressing a fear of falling directly through falling practice might be one, another might be overcoming things like fear of failure or fear of success with motivation based tactics such as short, medium and long term goals. You just have to look at it as training. Like, you don't need to fingerboard to get strong fingers, but you might get stronger fingers faster if you do (injury excepted), and there might be a limit to how strong you will get without specific training. You also wouldn't reasonably expect that if you did a couple of fingerboard sessions last year that you would still be seeing the benefits now. It all depends on the individual, though, some people have naturally strong fingers and others need training to get to the same point. Some people respond quickly to training and for others it takes more time.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

First of all, thanks especially to plexiglass nick, who wrote a brilliantly detailed response that I could definitely relate to. After considering his points, I think I am psychologically holding myself back, because I almost feel like I'm rushing the route to try and get to the "safety" of the anchor.

This, in turn, has the physical problems that others were also mentioning. Perhaps poor technique, DEFINITELY fumbling quickdraws and when clipping, and also desperately pulling holds as if I was climbing for my life!

Getting pumped out is something I can remedy relatively easily from some stamina training - as a couple of people rightly pointed out, the cruxes are within my bouldering comfort zone, so it's got to be stamina and psychology.

I read MacLeod's article, and I'll definitely try "practising" falling. And I'll give that redpointing a go whilst I'm there!

Anyway thanks for the great responses - they were of much help.

Chris

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

Glad you found it helpful.

Also don't underestimate overgripping as a factor in pumping you out. If you are tense or nervous you will tend to grip harder than you need to in a 'death grip', which will restrict blood flow to your forearms meaning you get pumped very quickly. Both redpointing and doing lots of leading within your comfort zone should help here, as you are learning the moves in a relaxed environment, and learning the habit of only gripping as hard as you need to, respectively. You could also try a drill on a boulder wall, where you consciously keep relaxing your grip until you become so relaxed you fall off. Then try climbing for a bit keeping your grip at the absolute minimum you need to stay on. If you do this enough it should give you an idea of how little you actually need to grip to stay on the holds.

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: I must say what a fantastic post. excelent replies. Plesiglass, thank you for a wonderfull read. its posts like this that keep me comming back to these forums time and time again. Thank you once again

In reply to highlander1:

You might want to pass that on to the climbing mags where it seem in vogue at the moment to slag off climbing forums!

In reply to Chris Ellyatt: redpointing can be done at any grade and is a good way to progress and learn more about unlocking a route and therefore also helping your onsighting. if you can onsight 6c on TR then you should certainly be onsighting 6b at least on lead. always worth throwing yourself off something steep indoors - spend half an hour falling, upping the distance each time.

as for whats normal i reckon you can climb much more sketchily on a toprope and get away with it. here, youre climbing more quickly and probably not gripping as much both of which will make the climb easier to complete physically. however, if the clips are in good positions / off good holds then clipping shouldnt however make that much difference (assuming the fall risk aspect / distraction is minimal) and so discrepancy between TR and lead onsight grades should be small, 1 max perhaps?

id give the 6b redpointing thing a go and try to break the barrier that way. by the way are we talking indoor / outdoor grades here? also possibly worth trying different venues / routes as you might find youre getting hung up on / frustrated by something that you just dont like (even if youre not aware of it)?

In reply to ripper: So next time at the wall you just want a "slightly" slacker rope....???