UKC

Typing this with 4 fingers heavily gelled and bandaged (by the lovely people at Chesterfield Royal ) after getting severe rope burn yesterday.

(My leader came off a a lot worse - looks like he's been a few rounds with the Haymaker...)

Scenario is: leader fall, top gear rips (9mm rope) and second gear holds (on 8.2mm rope). Leader flips upside down, goes someway down facing into crag, hence the bad facial damage but fortunately the helmet took a lot as well.

I've held lots of leader falls, some with ripped gear and never had rope burns that take full layers of skin off, maybe just a soreness. So I'm wondering is the brand new 8.2mm rope in my 15 year old belay device partly to blame for mine (and his) injuries??

Should I change belay device? Have others experienced this when changing to thinner ropes? My last was 8.5mm and no problems but I'm wracking myself with guilt now...

In reply to Babika:

Helps if we know what device you were using

In reply to Babika:

Ouch. An 8.x mm rope is going to be hard to hold in something like a classic Bug or ATC, worse still if it's new, soft and slick. You could add an extra HMS (back to back) for extra friction though it may become hard to use (works well when abbing). Better, and for similar money, invest in a smaller device or one of the modern designs with grooves, notches etc to better handle skinny ropes.

Hope you and your partner heal well,
jk

In reply to Babika:
Thanks. I have a standard ATC and will change. I also have a newer grooved one which my son was using but we both hate it (jerky, not fluid etc)

From the lack of similar experiences it sounds like this was a one-off bad luck thing rather than common occurence with new skinnies and old ATCs

In reply to Babika: so how far did the rope slip in your hand then? I'm wondering whether the difference in diameters meant that you were holding the larger rope tighter. Hope you both get well soon.

In reply to Babika:
Hi Babkia, Am sorry to hear about your injuries.

If you were indeed using an 'old style' atc (without the grooves) then they are very slick with skinny ropes and what happened isn't surprising.

So yes, you may well need to change belay devices.

In reply to Babika:
hmmmm. thats difficult to calculate...

with the amount of claret and general confusion it wasn't something I could say. My mates pulled the ropes down later and abbed for the gear.

But I think you're right and its highlighted a problem for me and made me think for the future.

In reply to Babika:

i found my atc guide to be a bit annoying to start with compared to my normal atc but i'd chose my atc guide every time for use with skinny ropes now.

In reply to andrew sandercock:
thanks for the recommendation - i'll try it. Does it take, say, an 8.2m and a 9mm ok or must they both be skinny?

In reply to Babika:

I have used a modern skinny rope in sport climbing & was far from happy with the feel of the ATC which was very slick.

I finally settled on a 'bugette' which feels much more reassuring to someone who grew up with the sticht plate.
Having said that it does look more like something that Cheryl Cole would hang from her ear than climbing kit but I'm trying not to let that put me off

In reply to Babika:

Read the posts. Looks like it may be time to buy something like a Buggette or similar, espacially if you stick with ropes that diameter.

Hope it heals quickly by the way.

In reply to Babika:

i've used odd 1/2 ropes with mine before and had no trouble. it will be a bit annoying/sticky at first (as will and grooved belay device compared to an atc) but you learn to adapt your belay technique slightly and its fine.

also, unless you need the guide/autoblock mode just get an atc xp as they're cheaper.

petzl reverso 3 is also a good option as they are specifically designed for skinny ropes (won't take larger singles) and are lighter (they do heat up quicker though on abseils)

so in short atc guide - takes singles and skinny doubles, heavier but stays cooler on abs.
reverso 3 - lighter but gets hotter on abs and only takes doubles (and skinny singles)

In reply to Babika: Don't feel too guilty, the following is from my brother Jim's website http://climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm and scroll down to section 7, the conclusions are at the bottom.
"Belay devices in general are limited in their capabilities, something few climbers seem fully aware of. With only one exception no device available on the market is proven to be capable of stopping a climber in a reasonably long factor 2 fall and with most devices the belayer risks severe rope burns and loss of control even in considerably lower (less than 1) factor falls."

In reply to scott titt:

Great website! Not sure I totally understand all the graphs but I am interested in the following comment:

"The amount of slippage is limited by the amount of pain and injury the belayer is willing or able to tolerate and at some point in long falls there is going to be a break-even point where the belayer is better off letting go and saving himself from injury since he will anyway be going to be forced to drop the faller, sad but true!"

Blimey. I hope my belayer never reaches that point....

In reply to Babika:

The ATC XP is much better for skinnies, and you can still get less friction if you want by reversing it and using the back edge - when belaying with a thick/stiff rope, or abbing with a prussik back-up, for example.

In reply to Babika:

You have learnt the hard way I'm afraid. Belay plates need to matched to the diameter or rope that you are using and this is often over looked by the majority of climbers.

Hope that you both get better soon!

In reply to Babika: Ouch bud hope you're recovering ok! When I switched to Beal iceline which are 8.1mm I traded my ATC in for a reverso 3. The grooves on it I find very effective at gripping smaller ropes and I would defo reccomend it for skinny ropes!

In reply to scott titt:


I can believe that. It's a pretty good grip work out trying to hold a second who's flailing around in space with no extra friction between the rope and rock/runners.

This is one thing that concerns me about belaying in winter with gloves on as I can't grip the ropes so hard. Anyone know how gripiness of the new reverso compares to the old?

In reply to Kane:
The drop tests from Manin et al give the old Reverso as having a braking coefficient of 5.5 with an ATC at 7 and an ATC XP at 11. Possibly the braking hand force used was a bit low though and as the force is raised the difference wouldn´t be so marked. The Reverso³ is about 10% weaker than an ATC XP at normal braking forces..
Jim

In reply to Babika:

It's surprising how easy it is to get rope burns - the only time I've held an unexpected fall (and it wasn't a particularly bad one) I got some. I think it's generally an underestimated danger. Some wise climbers (I think Sutty might be one of them)are proponenents of always wearinhg gloves to belay. Re skinny ropes (which I do myself use), I'm no physics expert but I imagine they will also be more prone to causing injury owing to the energy/heat being transmitted through a smaller surface area.

In reply to andrew sandercock: My reverso 3 takes a 10.5mm rope. It is rubbish with wall ropes though i have to admit. But singles for the reverso 3 are greater than or equal to 8.9mm up to prob 10 or 10.5mm I'd say. Not so skinny! And have no problem holding falls.
Shane

In reply to Kane:


The BMC
http://thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1436
group belay devices (well rope device combinations really) into
slick, intermediate, grabbing & locking.

If what you say above is true then I'd say you're using a combination that is very far down at the 'slick' end of the spectrum.
I'd question whether this is appropriate for the complexities of double rope work or indeed anything other than redpointing of sport routes.

In reply to scott titt:


Yikes. Please could you clarify that for the less technical among us. Are you saying that MOST belay devices on the market WILL NOT hold factor 2 or even many factor 1 falls with or without the belayer suffering rope burns, unless gloves are used?

Should this not be more widely known if it is the case?

In reply to jimtitt: Thanks for that. Do you have a link to the paper? I couldn't find it on the website Scott posted above.
Kane

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
Amongst many warnings from manufacturers and other bodies such as the DAV here is the warning from Petzl which puts it fairly clearly:-

With intermediate runner (my note);
"If the fall is severe, a force of 2 or 3 kN is soon exceeded. Then significant slippage of the rope in the hand occurs, which causes burns and carries a risk of releasing the rope."

Without intermediate runner (my note);
"Warning: absence of a running belay will result in very severe slippage of the rope in the hand. Stopping the fall becomes impossible with a figure-eight (huit) or belay plate (because of the severe burning that occurs) and difficult with an Italian Hitch. This risk is avoided by using the GRIGRI, but the impact force transmitted to the belayer is then higher."

Jim

In reply to Kane:
Published in Engineering of Sport 6 Vol 1
Authors are Manin, Richard,Brabant and Bissuel.

In reply to i.munro:
Thanks for the link.

I use a DMM bug. I like it for belaying and most of the time there is no problem as there is normally added friction in a runner or against rock. It's just on overhanging stuff where the rope makes a direct line through the air between plate and flailing second where it's noticeable, or an overhanging abseil on a skinny rope. Both easily fixed by running the rope through a biner on one of the anchors and adding a brake respectively.

I normally use an old reverso in winter, but may get a new grooved one as gloves don't grip the ropes as well as skin.

Interestingly a lot of people recommend wearing gloves to stop burns, however most gloves will make the ropes more likely to slip as you can't grip them so well. My advice: improve grip strength!

In reply to Babika: Ouch, sounds painful - hope you have a fast recovery.

I'd go along with what a few folk have said above and for skinny ropes look at a device with grabbing style teeth. The ATC XP is one but I prefer the Reverso3 as it's a bit smoother. Another one to look at, if you want something smaller, is the Verso - it's the same as the Reverso but without the guide bits, so much neater. Has the teeth for grabbing the rope though.

Good luck and hope you're both back out soon!

C-:

In reply to jimtitt: Cheers for that, interesting read.

Kane

In reply to all:

There's another variable involved in all this: whether the belaying technique could be improved. There can be a surprisingly large difference in the slickness of a belay device with only small changes in the angle of the dead rope.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I think that depends on the device. I find that with the ATC-XP for example angle doesn't make much difference whereas with the bugette (or the BMCs example of a 'grabbing' device the unsprung sticht) it's the most important factor.

I would take great care with which belay device you use with half ropes - especially very skinny ones. I use a Bugette or a Reversino - both work well. It's worth noting that when buying gear, look at the style of climbing in the country where it's made - BD is made in the US, where they don't really use half ropes, hence the ever popular classic ATC is not really suitable - I've watched Ben Bransby take a 70ft fall and burn his belayer's hand with exactly this gear configuration. It's all in Trad Climbing+ ...

In reply to Babika:

This is one of the reasons I use an old springless Clog Stitch, it's a bit clunky to handle and you have to manually lift it for slack sometimes but it's brilliant for catching falls on skinny ropes.

Seems like you've raised an important issue.

jk

In reply to jkarran:
Is that one of the thin slot ones? I´ve tested a newer Camp plate with the fatter slots which is an adequate performer but nothing better, my brother uses another model which is fierce as hell but a challenge to get a thickish rope in!

In reply to Babika:
Hi there.

A good while ago my local wall changed the ropes (as you do) and I found difficulty in holding my partner via my reverso. so, I incorporated another Krab into the system to improve the braking, and used a single glove on my right hand to further inprove my grip. The belay device continued to do all the work, but it just helped to take the slickness off the system until the new ropes furred up a bit and got sticky again. I have used the same trick (another Krab) when I had to belay a fattie (who climbed like a sack of sh*t).

As suggested, you may want to at least temporariy change to another kind of device such as an ATC VC that you can reverse to that one side is grippier than the other face, at need. At least you have a choice which side to belay with, and vary the stickiness of the device.

Sx

In reply to jimtitt:

Slots are 13.5 x 30mm (+-, no verniers to hand), it's 62mm OD, forged and marked 'Clog Wales', I've idea how old it is, I found it in a bin after a locker clearout at uni

It'll pretty much hold hands free at the start of a 40m ab on old 8.5 halves. Much nicer to catch a fall with than my ATC or Reverso.

jk

In reply to jim
Mine is a bit tighter 12.2mmx28.9mm and is probably a bit older, it's marked Clog and Great Britain!

In reply to jimtitt:

I've a cassin sprung sticht plate and thats grabby but not excessivly so and definately not like the V-twin. V-twin really is hellishly grabby, it'll pretty much auto-lock a lead fall on a 10 mm full rope.

In reply to Babika:
I sense a return to my old stitch plate (unsprung) - or at least it can live in the lid of my sack and I can vary my choices depending on mine and partners' ropes. I never had any problems belaying double ropes through quickly with this so I'm sure it won't be too hard to return!

Of course the unspoken question in all of this is not just what do you use for belaying - but what does your partner use for belaying you when you're leading on a skinny? and would you insist they change? Hmmmmmm.

Not a problem with a regular partner but for groups of mates or clubs it might be!

In reply to i.munro:

Many thanks for the BMC link - the picture really is worth a thousand words!

In reply to Babika: Glad to hear that you are both ok. As most folk have said you need to match the belay plate with the diameter of rope you are using. This is probably the most likely factor.

But you held the fall so there is no point feeling too guilty.

Trad Climbing+ and Libby Peters Rock Climbing have some good info on this. There is also some info about single pitch cragging at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1238

In reply to Babika:

It's interesting that the 9mm ripped. I wonder if it was the other way around would you have had as much difficulty holding the fall? It sounds like a sort of unexpected shock loading might have ocurred, which could be hard to hold normally, but which might be even harder with a thinner rope. Anyway if you have the scars to show you did your best to hold the fall i wouldn't beat yourself up about it....plus there are plenty of good recommendations for alternative devices above. FWIW i found an 8mm in a standard reverso felt a bit on the skinny side but defo better than the standard ATC.

In reply to Babika:
i really reccomend my omega pacifice belay device, it grips very well and cant get jammed up.

In reply to trimtram:
Not heard of that one - have you held any big lobs on it?

In reply to Babika:
my partner is heavy, dont tell them that though, and no trouble.
i've taken some good falls on the device.
the device can be used with thick or thin ropes by clipping to the device differently.
i bought mine from V12.
t

In reply to trimtram: & babika

Hoping that the op and partner have made a good recovery.

was imprested by the versatility of this http://www.omegapac.com/op_products_sbgii.html but have not seen one for sale, shop or web. Anyone know where I can get one ?