UKC

I am guessing this may on here already??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8514820.stm

In reply to Blue Roses: Seen the rescue of the walker with the broken leg where he must of slipped was quite steep snow and ice. Hope he is OK and was in the same area as the Ice climber around the same time
Andy

In reply to andyd1970: I'm fairly sure we passed the group from Chester as we descended to Llyn y Cwn. They were making fairly slow progress up to Glyder Fawr, and the slope there was treacherous.

I'm glad everyone escaped in one piece (albeit with broken bones!).

In reply to Mike Peacock:

You can study ice climbing in London?

In reply to Blue Roses: sorry to be a pest if anyone who knows the name of the guy mind messaging me there name, just have a few friends at imperial who are roughly 19.

In reply to The third: why dont you contact them then! dont rely on forums! what is the world coming to?!

In reply to The third:

If people are not named in incidents then its usually because they don't know the name or are keeping it private the first people to want to know are the press and they use some pretty devious tactics to get the names. Not suggesting you are the press but don't be surprised if you get the odd in- polite reply !

Dan

In reply to RachelP: well I don't have phone numbers as I lost my old phone recently and I have sent them a message but I haven't got a reply from either of them. Sorry if you know a way of telekentic thought exchange from london to leeds, your welcome to share it. I'm sure if people(from imperial aged 19) were involved in an accident in north wales after you had chatted to friends(from imperial aged 19) about them going to north wales to go ice climbing you would sit around and twiddle your thumbs. Occasionaly I wonder if people are arrogant chodes on UKC for a reason or just becasue they haven't got anything else to do with there crappy lives.

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:
fair enough, thanks for the informative reply.

In reply to Blue Roses: 'Evening everyone, I just got back from Wales. I was the belayer during the fall. He's actually doing fine and was discharged from hospital tonight and is now back in London with a suspected broken bone in his face and a bust lip! He was leading the first pitch of Tower Slabs (I think, forgive me, it was my first time in Wales) when the two halves of his right crampon separated whilst very run out. He took a very long tumbling fall and ended up level with the belay, he was held by his previous runner (screw) just unfortunatley owing to thin ice it was a very long way below.

On behalf of all of our party, I'd like to thank everyone who assisted with the rescue, in particular the two climbers who ran over to help us almost instantly and Andy (I think, sorry, I'm terrible with names) from MRT who was on the scene within seconds and did a truely fantastic job of coordinating things.

We'll be in touch with the crampon manufacturer as this kind of thing shouldn't happen, particularly on gear that's under a year old.

The third, I guess you know Sam and Mike since you're a wales boy, it wasn't either of them though Mike was on the trip but only bouldering. I'm not going to post the climber's name because we're already getting press enquiries etc. and I don't think it's something any of us have any desire to get involved in.

In reply to AlistairB:


I hope your mate recovers fully and quickly. On the crampon: having ice climbed and mountaineered for many years with a fair number of different crampons, I think more often to do with a bad combination of boots and crampons, or a too loose fitting binding - that is unless something actually breaks on the binding/crampon body (I've managed both over the years!).

Do you know exactly what happened to your friend's crampon? Did something break?

In reply to AlistairB:
thanks, hope the guy recovers well.

In reply to AlistairB: Hi Alistair,

I was one of the climbers who helped you guys out on Saturday. Hope your mate is ok. Was it just a bloody face in the end or did he break his arm?

Hope you guys got back to London ok and will keep winter climbing, just make sure you check your crampons next time before you put them on!

Cheers

Rob

In reply to adie84: got to be one of the brand new pairs of G14s. I'd like to know if anything actually broke, or it just fell off...

In reply to TobyA: Yeah, I would've thought that but he was climbing with some slightly older kind of Sportiva B3 and the crampon was the New-Matic type. They were properly adjusted (or at least were when we put them on) and the climber was reasonably experienced from Scottish winter climbing. We have all the pieces apart from the adjustment stud, the adjustment bar that runs along the middle is gouged from where the bar has slipped, essentially the two halves separated, it wasn't a case of them just popping off. Now I know very little about winter (it was my first time in fact!) but this strikes me as strange. I dunno, we'll email the manufacture and send them the pieces if they want them and see if they can tell us anything. It may well just be user error so I don't want to go defaming the manufacture or anything but it was a strange thing to happen.

Somehow his arm was fine, they kept him in to monitor for potential internal injuries. A broken bone in the face (which will apparently heal on its own) and a cut lip are all he's gotten away with. Unfortunatley climbers at our University are now being indiscriminatley hounded by the press which is sad because I don't think any of us are interested in talking to them.

What a first day out on the hill! Whilst it was a shocking experience, we did go out again the next day (he wanted to come with us if he got discharged in time!) and whilst I dunno if we'll go again this season, we will winter climb again, I'm pretty sure.

In reply to Blue Roses: Sorry to hear about the accident. I have seen first hand, a few times now, the spring pin pop on newer models of Grivel articulated crampons. Luckily the times I've seen this happen, the consequences were not serious, but we've had to bodge a repair on the crampons to get us back down safely (as the spring pin was lost). I have Grivel crampons myself, but have used a bolt to fix the bar in place. Last year I contacted the distributor for Grivel in the UK, to highlight this problem. I also e-mailed them some other threads from UKC with people experiencing the same issue of the spring pin popping. I hope the bloke who fell has a speedy recovery.

In reply to AlistairB:

Speedy recovery to your mate.

As for the crampons I'd suggest he send them to the BMC for investigation by their Equipment Investigation Panel. See:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Faqs.aspx?category=5
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=67

Not only will they investigate it thoroughly but as a well respected body they will have more clout dealing with gear manufacturers, should there be a need, than individual climbers.

Ahh, yes, i can totally imagine it. I have seen the pin pop off before, most of the time its actually because its not perfectly set into the hole properly though. It actually happens more often than people expect. with ice and snow adjusting the bar length in the freezing cold with gloves is very fiddly and once in a while the pin isnt as securely holding the bar as people think, this is the MAIN reason why alot of pro climbers (who obviously have their own crampons that only need adjustment once) replace the pin with a bolt which cannot be taken apart easily. For expeditions this is standard practice, this way u will never loose the pin and it saves a few grams!

In reply to shantaram:

We saw the same problem on a friends crampons in Rjukan earlier this year. Fortunately he was seconding so got away with it, we were lucky that we were using a 70m rope and it was just enogh to get him down to the point where he could slide off the bottom of the route on his arse.

Grivel insist it was because the crampons and boots were mismatched. He was using a C1 crampon on B3 boot. I'd say that I've seen this combination used countless times with no issues apart from this absurd spring clip failing. If Stubai and Charlet Moser could make it work why can't Grivel?

I really don't understand why Grivel persist in using such a silly little clip.

In reply to AlistairB:

We've got the university press office involved in the past when press have been harassing us in the past (Bristol MC) - turning up at the pub demanding to interview us, phone calls at 2AM, etc etc. All a bit much really.

In reply to Blue Roses:

I saw the bloke being airlifted from Glyer Fawr. Good to know it was (only) a broken leg, could have been much worse.

In reply to DomS69:


Agree totally. Grivel seem to be aware that there is a problem and are ignoring it. Much better to send it to an impartial 3rd party authority on the subject than an all-denying manufacture.


Hope he's back on his feet soon. Sounds like a horrible accident.

In reply to AlistairB: I would echoe what Dom says above - use the BMC to assess what happened rather than the manufacturer - they will liaise with the makers, but they have independent engineers to look at this.

I have a pair of G12s with the spring clip adjusters. I've had them for 10 years and not had a problem with that (I was one of those who had the first generation yellow front plastic binding piece break though). I can't see how it happens myself - but this definitely isn't the first time its been discussed on here, so I'm sure the BMC would be very interested if nothing else to assess whether it's a design fault or user error.

In reply to TobyA: Having seen the crampons in question and also working for the BMC I will pass the information onto Dan Middleton our technical officer, but I am not sure what they will be able to do.

The crampon was in two separate pieces and the silver spring loaded clip that holds the stud in the hole of the connecting bar was just not there. It was no where to be seen. There was no broken metal anywhere, it had just disappeared. Whether this piece disappeared when the crampons fell apart or it was never there in the first place I can not comment, but I am sure Dan will be interested.

Cheers

Rob

In reply to adie84: The problem with the spring clip seems to have been on more recent Grivel crampons. The design of the spring clip changed a couple of years ago, and the problem seems to have arisen from this. I have brought this up with the distributors, and they said they would pass on the info to Grivel, but nothing seems to have changed - no design alteration or product recall. I would be very happy if the BMC were to look into this independently. The consequences of this type of design fault are very serious.

In reply to shantaram:
my g14s didn't come with a bolt, although I haven't had a problem with them opening whilst climbing as there is a rubber part on the sole tread on my nepals which prevents it opening. That said I'm beguinning to think that a bolt would be safer.

Does the bolt have to be of a specific type?

Thanks,
Stevo

In reply to Blue Roses: Sounds awful. I've had quite a few of the imperial climbers come to the shop being kitted out for winter climbing.

My g14s have been taped together ever since I heard of the problem of them falling apart. Out of curiosity, what size of boots were they fitted on?

In reply to James Jackson:

There is a "Robin Smith story" that he once punched a journalist in the face outside the Clachaig in similar circumstances (He was with the Edinburgh Univ Mountaineering Club and they'd lost one of the freshers on the Aonach Eagach, the lost fresher turned up the following morning...)

In reply to Hannes: They were on size 12 Sportivas, I dunno older Sportiva models but they were bright yellow and looked a lot like some variety of Trango.

In reply to AlistairB: some nepal extremes would be my guess. Just a random guess, i wasn't there

And if thats the case, there is no way that the crampons wont fit. In fact, I have fitted G14s and equiv on some 50 yr old american ice boots, modern crampons are so well designed they go and should stay on virtually everything - unless the boots are B1 or below....

In reply to CurlyStevo: My G12's came with the bolts. I know that Needlesports in Keswick have a load of bolts that will fit, as should any good climbing shop that stocks Grivel articulated crampons.

I had problems with Grivel G12s falling off too. I figured out that the problem was actually the soles of my boot (Nepal Extreme Evo, size 12) which have a gap in the profile exactly where the clip is located. As a result, ice, snow or little stones can push in between the clip so that the pin rides up in its hole. The spring action of the clip is unfortunately not strong enough to overcome the friction caused by the longitudinal stress on the joint once the crampon is attached to the boot so that the connection will sooner or later just fail.
A bolt easily solves this problem but Grivel should be ashamed not to point this out.

In reply to adie84: Howdy all, im in charge of stores for the club he was with and was running the trip

When I lent them out on friday the clips were definitely on them and the crampons were pretty much brand new, they were bought last year and im pretty sure they've only been taken out once (2 weeks in the alps this summer) where they were barely used.

In reply to Blue Roses:

I saw the budgie in operation from Crib Goch, glad it was nothing more serious.

I was using a pair of Ait-Tech's i've had for a couple of weeks. When they arrived the pin didn't seem to 'lock down' as snugly as i'd have expected and seems to foul on the 'accordian' anti-ball device on the bar. Think i'll be replacing with a bolt asap just to be on the safe side.

CT.

In reply to CT:

Last year on a climbing course, one of the guides insisted that we taped up, very tightly with gaffer tape, the joins where the crampons are adjusted to fit your boot. She explained that she has heard of, and seen herself, quite a few cases where Grivel crampons have literally fallen apart and she wouldnt take us out on the hill til we had done this. We use G12's on B3 boots, but she still wanted to see this done, and did so to everyone on the course. What she was explaining sounds very similar to what happened with the poor guy on this post. It seems that its something to do with the clips on the new grivels.

Glad to hear you're all ok, wishing him a speedy recovery.

In reply to chassy:

thats interesting, i might do the same to my crampons (not Grivel), although i get the impression the pin "sheared" rather than "popped", which tape won't help with.

I wonder what sort of forces these adj pins (in any crampon) are under, as possibly they are a weak point.

In reply to Jim Hamilton: The times I've seen these spring pins come out, they popped out and definitely didn't shear. This leaves this heel and front section of the crampon dangling. One time my mate was on the lead on a grade 3 and I saw the whole spring pin come past me bouncing down the gully. Luckily he was on easier ground, and we were at the top of the route. Not good though, and the day was saved by the metal ring of his key ring being used to temporarily hold the crampons together for the descent.

In reply to Nille:

I had exactly the same thing happen with my old Nepal evos and G12 Crampomatics.

Problem solved by using a nylock nut and bolt. I got in touch with the UK supplier who sent me some revised adjusters FOC.

I think the spring adjusters are well avoided.

In reply to Blue Roses:

This happened to my friend on the first pitch of Point Five just over a year ago. The problem seemed to be that the pin on the adjustment clip was too short. The older models have a longer pin I believe.

In reply to Blue Roses: It was me that fell off.

We were on Idwal Slabs(a party of 4 split up into 2 ropes of 2), conditions were brilliant, no wind, was my first time climbing winter stuff in wales and it was ace. Plastic ice in places which made a nice change from exhausting hard glacier ice.

Anyways, the route:

Set up a belay just below the first pitch, excellent sling over a spike, really just in case my belayer slipped off the ledge. Got a bomber threaded sling about 6m above the belay after a bit of chopping. Took the left side of the route as it looked a bit more interesting.

Placed a screw(16cm) in some good looking ice about 20m above the belay. It went in easily enough but then felt like it was hitting an air/water pocket and then bottomed out. Thought I could tie it off or use my only stubbie, but decided the better option was to unscrew it and place it again. So I did, and it bottomed out again. Placed it a third time, and it went in perfect. Then climbed about 15m above that on a mix of neve and water ice, thought about getting a runner in but the ice was pretty easy and there looked like a good sling placement over a spike another 5 metres above me.

Proceeded to start climbing up ice heading to this spike, then I fell off. I can't comment on why I fell off, it's being investigated.

Remember being briefly in the air as I fell and thinking this was not good, then I was upside down, had a bit of pain in my left elbow.

Then I opened my eyes and saw red out my right eye. Very shortly after that a gentleman(or 2) came up to me and engaged me in pleasant chitchat while doing a lot of checks of me. Then various other people appeared, I'm afraid I forgot all of their names, but I do remember one was ginger, and they all gave me assistance in getting off the slope and onto flat ground where I was winched and then taken to Bangor.

The hospital folk reckoned I potentially had a few troublesome injuries so I stayed overnight, which beat sleeping in the tent, but it turns out I'm pretty much unharmed apart from a possibly broken zygoma(face bone).

None of my gear ripped which was nice, it was quite a big fall for one screw to hold.

I'd like to say thanks to: Everyone who gave me assistance, including the MR people who happened to be close by, random people who were also close by, everyone who gave me clothes to keep warm/banter, the helicopter folk, and everyone at bangor hospital.

Also, thanks to:

Ali, my belayer, who did an excellent job of holding my fall and appararently took in a couple of armfuls of slack as I fell off.

Johnathan, for organising such an awesome trip and not being pissed off when I made him spend time filling in loads of accident report forms.

Murray, for kindly taking stuff of mine down the hill and eating all my lunch.

In reply to Blue Roses: Oh yeah, and cheers everyone for the good wishes.

In reply to All:

On behalf of Grivel in the UK we would like to issue the following statement relating to the above thread. Firstly we are very sorry to hear of the incident and wish the climber a speedy return to full health. We take these situations in great consideration. We are happy to provide our feedback, and we would welcome the opportunity to examine and review the parts if so desired. Without the evidence of the crampon and boot combination, it is impossible at this stage to comment on any compatibility issue here and or why this incident of crampon detachment occurred.

In respect of additional comments relating to the spring clip and potential slippage , we feel we must advise that in our experience users encountering this situation have in 100% of cases - forced the spring to open the crampon and adjust its size. If the force used for opening the steel spring passes its elastic limit, the spring deforms permanently and it does not go back to its original position. The pin can then stay open and can no longer fix the rear part of the crampon.

The other possible case is that the user has placed the Accordeon BELOW the spring, preventing it from working properly. If on the other hand the Accordeon is in its right position above the spring, it will help the spring to keep the pin in the correct position.

We suggest that the spring, like all components should be regularly checked to ensure full operational order. If customers have any concern, then replacements spring parts are available. We would also advise a further solution- that is replacing the spring with a fixed bolt. With this option you lose the facility of “on the hill” adjustment, however where crampons are pre-adjusted to your own boots, this gives extra security and even saves a few grams. Spare springs and bolt kits are available from Grivel UK dealers or contact Mountain Boot co LTD info@mountainboot.co.uk www.mountainboot.co.uk