UKC

There seem to be lots of threads bouncing around about dry tooling/upsetting people/lack of ice etc etc at the moment so thought I'd ask about a venue me and a mate would like to start dry tooling at.....

Its located at the top of chew valley (peak district) on the left at Rob's Rocks. Its a small quarry about 8m's high in places, very turfy and loose at the top, you would struggle to even get over the top of the walls in summer without axes to slam in the turf!

anyone mind if we put some bolts there this summer for dry tooling?

In reply to tom290483:

Am I right in thinking you don't mean Rob's Rocks itself but the quarry that's a little bit further on that often has a big pond at the base of the walls (iirc - it's a while since i was up that way)?

In reply to Tall Clare:

yeah sorry, meant to write just after Robs Rocks before you reach the reservoir.

In reply to Removed User:

can I ask why? do you climb there?

In reply to tom290483:

I think you're unlikely to find much support for this one.

In reply to tom290483:

I mind that beautiful serene valley being drilled out any more than it already has been already.

Here's a question: Dry tooling is one thing, but why would it need bolting anyway?

In reply to Tall Clare: haha, thats a masterclass in understatement!

In reply to fxceltic:

I thought so.

In reply to Removed User:

how about if i take the drill up in the middle of the night?

being truthful about it we already got dry tooling up there and do just set-up a top rope but fancied the idea of being able to do some leading up there.

how can a crappy little quarry with absolutely no scope for rock climbing cause people to get so opinionated?

plus you live in "deepest darkest yorkshire" so you dont get a say in what happens in Lancashire anyway.

In reply to tom290483:

I was born in Lancashire.

You didn't answer me why you needed to bolt it. Are you aware it is possible to lead without bolts?

In reply to Removed User:

Very aware thanks. Would you lead up there? over the turf and loose rock thats covering the place? I wouldnt. Which is why we top rope it. Leading is the next logical progression but without a lower off would be exceptionally dangerous/pointless as its all choss anyway.

Fair enough if you climb trad there i can see why you would not want bolts but having climbed in and around chew valley for years myself not sure what would be lost by placing a few bolts up there.

In reply to tom290483:

Well maybe before you head up there with your drill maybe you should attend the next meet and discuss it first.

http://www.chewcrags.co.uk/

I look forward to you being dragged out into the carpark...

In reply to Removed User:

you havent answered my question. would you lead up there knowing what the quality of the rock is like?

is it the bolts actually being on the rock you dont like or the actual act of drilling them/the noise created etc?

dont get me wrong i'm putting this out there not to annoy people but as an idea of how to make use of a loose/turfy non summer climbed quarry.

In reply to tom290483: as hardonicus said, for it to happen you would need to gain some kind of concensus from other users.

otherwise we would enter the tedious situation where you put in a bolt, someone pulls it out or hammers it flat, fills in the hole etc, and so on ad nauseum.

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog:

Chris, thanks for the email. It raised points that if i'm truthful I had never even thought about.

Still interested to know what other regular chew/dovestones climbers think.

In reply to tom290483: I say go for it, it's only a shitty old Lancashire quarry fit for heathens.

In reply to tom290483:

Just no, its gritstone, it doesn't need to be bolted, if you want to effectivly turn it into a sport climbing place, abseil down and preplace the trad gear, just dont put bolts in, it's completly unesscessary! not to mention ethics.

Also, I haven't seen Chris' email, but knowing Chris, im sure it contains numerous good points, and generally highlights everything that goes over most peoples head. Cheers Chris.

In reply to tom290483:

and it's only bolts

In reply to tom290483:

In the interests of a balanced debate, I think it would be a good idea to post a photo or two of the place. The suitability (or otherwise) of crags for bolting and/or dry-tooling is often largely down to "feel", and we have none of this at present.

In reply to tom290483: I've climbed a lot in the Chew Valley and to be fair I don't see how your idea will contribute anything to the area.

I notice from your profile that you haven't really done much hard stuff in winter except for a couple of M5/7 dry tool routes in wales.

Why not get out and build up your skills on classic winter routes in Scotland and train on Sport routes for strength. This will give you a good foundation for sending hard M routes in Europe without pissing people off.

A lot of very good mixed climbers have managed to get good in the last 50 years without drilling grit. So can you.

Dan

In reply to tom290483: why not go to Dovestones Quarry on some of the chop routes that nevr get climbed ,and dry tool there,bit high for you ?

In reply to tom290483:


The Chew is deepest darkest Yorkshire, well until 1974 when it became a part of Greater Manchester! Many local people still think it should belong to Yorkshire, the red rose on boundry signs are often changed to white.

I climb in the Chew, as to bolts in that quarry I'd say no, why not try and find a disused viaduct, retaining wall or similar where you could enjoy yourself

In reply to tom290483:

If it's grit or similar soft rock you'll reduce it to a pile of sand in no time.

In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to tom290483)


Lets run through this one step at a time shall we?

Men drill holes into rock, place dynamite and produce a quarry. Nobody climbs there though, as it's a shitehole.

Another man politely canvases opinion as to whether he can drill some more holes, into said shitehole, so that he can use it to become a winter beast of fury.

Outraged Chew Cragsman, guardian of the true pure spirit of rock climbing, implies that such impudence will result in a good kicking round the back of a pub carpark.

Hmm...

Wee Davie makes the only sound point, which is that the main reason for this being a bad idea is how unsuitable gritstone is for drytooling.

In reply to danm:
Yeap typical of 95% of UCK users. They are right and you are wrong. Little room for taking other peoples opinions onboard or using common sense.
As I often post on here, I have an opinion but so do others. What matters is the general consensus of everyone involved ie go with the majority.

SO
Its a quarry already. No one climbs on it. If the local climbers are ok with it then why not. Have you got in touch with local climbing clubs? Local BMC officer? etc

In reply to pigeonjim:

Some reasons why I don’t think placing bolts in this quarry for dry tooling are;

The suitability of the quarry in the first place, it will never be popular due to a 50 minute walk in, the rock is poor and fractures easily, as far as I know most lines have had summer ascents (but haven’t seen any details apart from cleaning of the routes) much of the quarry is less than 8 meters high so is it really worth the effort? There is also how suitable gritstone is to dry tool on; given its soft nature (brought up earlier in the thread).

After all how much practice will there be clipping into equipment on a 6 meter climb, why not just continue to top-rope and abseil to place some gear prior to doing so, this will probably eliminate the chance of a ground fall, which I presume would not be too good wearing crampons and ice axes!

There is also a problem in the Chew Valley with random bolts being placed in popular crags as belays points for about 8 years now; thankfully none have been placed for about 2 years. I think bolting this quarry for the limited use it may see could start bolts being place again at the more popular crags, plus it may be harder to justify the removal of these bolts if we ever find out who is placing them.

There must be plenty of redundant stone or brick structures around Greater Manchester which would be far more suitable to dry tooling than a short, crumbly quarry with a 50 minute walk in, never mind considering bolting this tiny quarry up, given the upper meter is loose I’m not sure what would be gained from placing 1 bolt and a lower off?

Just my thoughts on the matter.

In reply to tom290483:
I'm gonna play devils advocate here and ask why its not OK to dry tool in a manky quarry with no routes in and yet it is OK to make a mess of summer classics like centurion, king rat and the needle?

just curious

In reply to tom290483: Probably worth pointing out that it was fat with ice in January...

In reply to tom290483:

Just don't. It's utter punterdom. Training wise it won't even do you any good because it ain't steep enough or long enough. Stupid stuff like this would set a precedent for other "manky quarries" in the area.

This is obviously a f+cking windup, right?

I dont agree with this argument of "setting up precedent for other places".

If a place is a shytehole and is fit for bolting Im up for it. Preventing ok bolting because it might lead to not so ok bolting is silly. Then we might as well stop climbing on all seacliff crags because some might go climb during nesting which isnt allowed. Its the same sort of argument.

Im generally against bolting, but in this case people are just being "extremists" and taking it to far on others behalf.

Weather drytooling 8 m routes will make you stronger or not doesnt matter, if the OP think this is fun then that requirement is enough. If its a 50 m walking is irrelevant too, some people are ready to walk that distance.

In reply to tom290483:

My point about soft rock is based on this- Newtyle quarry is slate which, while brittle, is a shedload harder than grit. The rate that DT wears the drilled placements in Newtyle is pretty dramatic.
The bottom line is your DT crag will last a couple of seasons before it is fecked.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

There have been an aweful lot of interesting comments regarding my post, first off, i'm going up there tomorrow so will take some pics of the place to see what people think. i'll have axes with me so if anyone plans of battering me round the back of a pub car park then feel free to have a go.

In reply to Alex Thompson:

come on alex it was hardly "fat" with ice. there was one line that looked do-able if your name was dave macleod the rest were above a 2inch bit of frozen pond with absolutely no protection.

In reply to Burns:

are we talking about the same place? not steep enough? 90% of the walls are vertical if not slightly overhanging.

what else is there to do with those other "manky" quarries? leave them to rot? or place some bolts and get strong for the winter?

were not talking about den lane quarry or running hill pits here but a non-descript crag on the top of nowhere that has no summer routes in it.

In reply to Wee Davie:


If nobody ever climbs there, and by the fact that there are no summer routes there now. What does it matter if the place gets fecked by dry tooling?

Unless of course this is a summer venue that has been lost for new routing over the last 70 years of climbing in the area. Correct me if I am wrong?

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

Dan, thanks for your feedback. Your right winter wise probably nothing that hard, just back from a trip to La Grave with WI4 being as hard as it got.

I didnt start this thread as a "lets bolt gritsone" idea. it was purely started because i live local to this area and the nearest place i can go dry tooling is white goods in wales (1.30hrs away). i love to climb grit in the summer and am fully versed on the ethics behind such rock.

i understand that a climbable crag (whatever the rock) should not be bolted but why not a chossy falling down quarry that no one is going to use otherwise?

In reply to andyyyy:

andy. no one climbs here and i dont even think you will find it in any guidebooks (not even on the ukc crag guide!). someone mentioned in an earlier post about dry tooling up dovestones quarry just down the hill from this quarry. strange. as that quarry has noted routes in it which surely makes it unsuited to dry tooling?

In reply to tom290483: Well, mainly because the idea of bolting grit, no matter how chossy tends to annoy people...

In reply to tom290483:

Here's a pic of the quarry as I don't think you managed to get up there today? http://www.flickr.com/photos/21913923@N03/4414903406/

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog:

"The OP obviously hasn't thought things through properly. If they are already top roping then there are belays above. So why not leave a belay insitu to clip in instead of placing bolt lower-offs?

The top of that quarry is a lot less serious than many others I've climbed in ( Lester Mill, Anglezarke, etc.) and they don't have bolt lower offs!

Having said all that, there are more pressing issues concerning use of that venue on United Utilities land!

5, 4, 3... before this gets deleted"

Chris, I get the impression the OP wants to bolt a line up the quarry, not just a lower off. I couldn't see it lasting, based on previous form in the area.

In reply to tom290483:
I wouldn't have bothered to reply to your post until you mentioned Lancashire.
To be fair to you, a lot of people such as your self get your sense of geography from websites such as UKC so I can't say you are to blame.

So here it is, for your benefit and that of UKC people: crags in the Chew ( this includes Den Lane ) have never been in Lancashire. And they never will be.
If you catch a bus out of Manchester you pass through a place called Oldham. At that point you are still in Lancashire.
Soon after you pass through a place called Lees. A bend in the road at Lees is actually called County End. From then on you are in Yorkshire.
You might want to dispute this and tell me it's Greater Manchester. But it's not Lancashire.
By the time the bus stops at the Clarence, you are about six miles inside Yorkshire. Your little quarry must be about eight miles in, then.

In reply to tom290483:

Hi Tom, hmm opinions of local climbers eh.

I don't think anyone (too much) objects to dry tooling as such at this quarry. The main problem with this point, as mentioned elsewhere, is the rock is rather soft. This seems to me the primary possible reason against dry tooling here.

Placing bolts is another debate altogether and one that I personally find objectionable. Why would you need to bolt it when you can so easily top rope it? Because you want to lead it doesn't seem to be a very stong argument. How many bolts would you get on a line to the top? Possibly 2? Its not very many and hardly worthwhile. From what I recall I'm not even sure it is 8m. Possibly 6, but hey who's counting.

You asked for the opinions of local climbers. From what I can see you have received them. Probably about half a dozen of the replies are from local climbers who regularly climb in Chew.

The routes in Dovestones quarry that are dry tooled or mixed are primarily climbed on frozen turf. Of which there is an awful lot on one specific face in Dovestones quarry. For this reason guidebook writers often ask that these routes are not 'gardened' by summer climbers so that sufficient turf is left for winter climbers during a good freeze. During climbing (over 20 years in Chew) I have never seen anyone on the 'winter turf' face of Dovestones Quarry during the summer.

I'm not sure I understand why leading it without a lower off would be 'exceptionally dangerous'. Its not as steep as is proposed either. Vertical certainly, possibly slightly overhanging in places. Very gently by a degree or 2. Re: no one climbing there. I do, or rather have done. Admittedly not top of my list of quality esoteric meanderings I did spend a pleasent morning on the ice there in January.

The use of bolts here just doesn't make sense. If you 'fancied' climbing using your tools during the summer months I'd suggest you take a few stakes up to Robs Rocks quarry belt them in and be happy with a spot of top roping. No one will see you up there after all

Best, SD

In reply to craig h:

cheers for the pic Craig, your right didnt make it up there as we had planned on climbing at Robs Rocks but Aldermans was too tempting seen as it was bathed in sunshine.

the photo shows the wall well. cheers,

In reply to Burns:

the belays at the top are poor and a long way back from the edge of the wall which makes life difficult.

the other idea could be some kind of bolts/stakes over the top of the cliff for running a top rope through (like i've see at other grit quarries).

when you say it wouldnt last does that mean someone would cut the bolts/hammer them in etc?

In reply to tom290483:

Hi, judging by what I have read and seen my opinion is that bolting this quarry is not the best option. Better from a climbing perspective would be to fix some strong stakes at the top, hunt for gear placements and maybe place a peg or two. Practicing placing gear on the lead and topping out might be useful for other routes in the future. enjoy...

In reply to Tom Valentine:


Correct. Saved me from explaining. Its occupied territory. UKC has Pule as Lancashire too.

In reply to tom290483:

Have you thought about the access issue & who owns the land - impact on the local wildlife & the fact that bolting a quarry would need to be discussed at a local BMC meeting?

Si

In reply to tom290483:

Bolt it if you must, but all you will have done will be create a fairly crap dry-tooling venue which will do little to improve your abilities, and which you will probably get bored with pretty quickly. Worth the effort and the possible aggro?

As others have said, you will learn much more about mixed climbing by, er, doing some mixed climbing.

In reply to Red Rover:

there is more to the quarry than just the bit where the water comes down. the previous photo that was posted shows the bit where dry tooling could be practiced. this wall is to the left of the bit that freezes.

not sure why it be pointless though?

the whole ethics thing really confuses me in this country. i think we should all go back to nailed boots and tweed jackets.

In reply to tom290483: Reading back at this thread mate it would appear that most of the negative feeling appears to be because you want to bolt it up:

Looking at this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/21913923@N03/4414903406/sizes/l/

I don't know about anyone else, but most of those lines look to be perfectly protectable, there's plenty of cracks.

So, why not continue in the Gritstone tradition and if you're not bold enough fcuk off home and leave it for someone else? I don't see why this shouldn't apply to dry tooling as much as summer climbing do you?

In reply to tom290483:

Hi Tom,

I can't say I'm particularly enthralled by the idea of drytooling at Rob's Rocks Quarry, but it's worth taking it the CVC meetings and discussing it if you really want to. The stuff about being dragged into the car park's a bit unnecessary and people will listen to you. They might not agree mind...

I climbed on the ice sheet there this winter, on a top rope as I suspect most people did due to the poor quality of the ice and lack of runners. Would a bolt make much difference to your experience from a top rope?

You could annoy much more people than simply climbers by bolting it. The Chew Valley is a pretty special place and bolts will provide plenty of ammunition for people who don't like chalky climbers ruining their views. Again though, if you are serious about it, gauge if there's a concensus at BMC and CVC meetings. Otherwise it'll lead to the tedious bolt and chop scenario.

All the best,
Danny

In reply to wayno265:

Well at least we've got some rock up here,and plenty of fine climbing at that. And we also value our tranquility.So I suggest that u stick with the hordes trashing Stanage every w end. Or u could visit the crags at your end of the woods.

In reply to ruckman:

I'd nodded off waiting to get a bite!

In reply to tom290483:

Hi Tom

Please don't just go and bolt this venue. The bolts will be chopped by local activists (as all bolts up there have been in the past). Many previously unlisted venues up there are climbed on, even I've climbed on many unlisted areas around Robs Rocks and I'm based in Nottingham (although I've never climbed in that quarry). The correct way to approach this is through the BMC area meetings or by emailing the BMC access team as they can tell you about potential problems you may not have realised like rare plants or objections from the landowner that may affect access in more important areas.

Thanks for the all the feedback on this people. Some has been very insightful as to peoples thoughts on the whole bolting/dry tooling area and some has just been plain rude.

I would never start an activity that I thought was going to upset people and certainly wouldnt waste my cash if the bolts would just get cut anyway.

I guess the interesting thing about the whole ethics thing is that everyone has different ideas. I find it quite amazing how upset some people can get about an idea that another person has!

In reply to tom290483: i would think the chew valley cragsmen would dry tool you as so would i

In reply to craig h: hello craig bob whittaker g mason and i climbed in this quarry round about 1969 we did four routes and on site if this little quarry was a 5 or 10 min walk from your car it would be nice and clean and proberly in mr moorlands guide

In reply to tom290483: Lancs climbers should be very wary concerning this issue. Devotees of this fad of the moment have managed to trash a fair number of rock routes in Glen Nevis, where their activities seem to be tolerated. If they were to turn their attention to the classic cracks at Wilton or Angelzarke I'm sure there would be serious aggro.Dry tooling is simply a form of aid climbing.

In reply to brian a:

thanks the abuse. i love getting dry tooled. how about i bring along my biggest cam and stick it up your.......

In reply to brian a:

and isnt that the point? its not 5 to 10mins from the car, its more like 45 mins hence nobody climbs there and its turfy and crappy.

In reply to ruckman:

i would argue its a training for winter climbing.

check out seb montaz's vid on ramons blog.. ramonmarin-uk.blogspot.com...i imagine you'd have a fit if this was raven tor on a saturday, me too probably but i find it strange that its so acceptable in other countries.
hell, they've even got logs bolted to the crag to add interest!

In reply to tom290483:

As Simon says above, have you asked the BMC the question? Also have you asked the landowners? I doubt United Utilities would be that happy to see climbers putting bolts up in what you describe as a manky quarry.

Especially as UU and the RSPB are working together to create a fantastic reserve up there, you could spoil the access to all climbers in Chew and surrounding UU land, and potentially destroy a habitat which is prime for Ring Ouzel and Twite. Not withstanding the possibity it probaby have a good eco system for plants and other wildlfe as it is left alone and ever hardly touched.

With the creation of this reserve access will quite rightly be monitored in the summer as there are nesting Prergrines on Dovestones, which will attract restrictions.

In reply to MattJP:



Judging by his non reply to my post I don't think so!

In reply to tom290483:

As I previously stated, it dosen't really offer much to train on, unless you are planning lots of vertical 8m mixed routes. If that's the case I would forget training and get to the pub.

Different countries, different ethics and practices. When in Rome...

In reply to ruckman:

Drytooling could be aid climbing. But then all winter climbing would be aid climbing too, and telling by all the coverage it gets in UK, there would be an enormous amount of people interested in it. So nothing wrong with it then, move on.

As per that quarry not being good for training, it can be argued. I definitely wouldn't bolt it, and ethics apart, you could a fantastic training ground for british mixed climbing. Setting up a top rope and doing 10 laps on it, up and down-climbing (useful for Dave Mac to reverse Tempest?) would get you well pumped. A few weekends of that and you are sorted for the season!

In reply to ramon marin martinez:

I concur allround Ramon. Bolting idea has gone out of the window due to local feeling/abuse.

Most people seem happy enough with the idea of tooling at the quarry apart from the a few people that did traverses there in 1960.

In reply to Burns:

I suppose you also believe that doing bouldering as training for trad climbing has little effect and is generally pointless?

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog: Yet another climber with no idea.

Dry tooling does not involve "bashing" crags.


"There are enough problems with yobbish behaviour - littering, damage to
rocks and routes"

Every climber causes damage to crags, it's unavoidable. Even the act of walking up causes erosion. Do you use chalk?

And what abouts the "gardening" of crags by trad climbers? It's acceptable to pull stuff out of cracks, chop small trees, hack away brambles etc etc....

In reply to tom290483: I don't see why you'd want to put leading bolts in it if it's for training.

Surely easier and cheaper to just make a few bolted chains at the top for top roping? Plus then you aren't going to have careless parteners put their crampons through your expensive leading rope.

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog: But people climbing the routes without tools is fine? Why? Both leave marks.

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog:

I have a fair bit of experience with dry tooling, have had a fair few Joe Publics come over and talk to me about it. None have expressed that view.

They have, however, made comments that it looks fun, asked if I've climbed mount everest, and several times asked to have a go. Others just watch with interest.

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LII - On the Bog:

Should dry tooling be seen as something bad, something to ashamed of, something to be hidden from view? Some members of this forum seem to regard it in a similar manner to incest.

xxx

In reply to fishy1:

You too have enquired above about the need to bolt the crag if it is only for training.

The fact that this guy is spouting off on here about the need for bolting it suggests he is pretty clueless or trolling.

In reply to fishy1:

I do happen to think that it offers poor training opportunities for "winter" as suggested by the OP. It's short, vertical and limited in terms of tool placements. By the time you have lowered between laps, you have already started to recover- not so good for endurance. It's lack of steepness offers little to train power. In short, it lacks specificity. Also, top roping and tooling a crag like that is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.

An opportunity for inexperienced climbers, new to the sport and lacking an understanding of its sustaining traditions, to utilise their shiny new tools? Probably.

What the hell does an 18yo Scot who prefers to eschew chalk want with a dirty old quarry in Yorkshire? It's a long oar you've got!

Please just try to get what Chris is saying. He is far from clueless, as many will attest to.

In reply to Burns:


That should be obvious; he wants to argue with people on the internet.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Bingo.

In reply to Burns:

Winter climbing is not just power power power. There is a wee bit of skill to it.

And the photos of that wall look like it's covered in small cracks which make great holds.


What's wrong with that? Follow the traditions if you want, don't force others to follow them.

In reply to fishy1:

Here, the tradition is there to protect the rock. Gritstone is completely unsuitable for dry tooling. It's brittle on the outside and soft on the inside. A few tooling ascents of a route will break off almost all of the brittle shell. After that the rock will pretty much fall apart with further ascents. I'm sure the RSPB and UU will look kindly on a fairly public cliff being torn to shreds in a single season.

In reply to stewieatb: It is a quarry. Would you have shouted for the protection of the rock before it was first quarried?

In reply to fishy1: The rock removed from from the quarry when it was active went to build houses. The rock you rip off dry tooling goes on the ground. Also the fact that humans have already damaged something doesn't mean that damaging it further is fine. Large swathes of the amazon rainforest are gone. Does this make it OK to take the rest down? Should everything we damage be given up as a lost cause and allowed to be detroyed?

Also, you missed my point about the RSPB and UU. Dry tooling has a definite visual impact and is inherently destructive on this rock type. If they see climbers wrecking this cliff they may be less nice about us free climbing on their other crags and quarries.

In reply to stewieatb:

Yes or no, do you think the initial quarrying was acceptable?


So does trad or any type of climbing, particularly if you use chalk.

In reply to fishy1: I don't know the history; when was it quarried, and what was it used for? I may agree or disagree given that information.

As for the visual impact, and for your comments about all climbing 'leaving a mark' further up the thread, you can't possibly claim that dry tooling and trad free climbing have the same visual and environmental impact. Dry tooling here involves hard tools on a soft rock type. It is inherently more destructive than trad climbing in soft rubber boots.

Really, it's a matter of sustainability. I would wager that some of the Diff-VS routes on stanage have seen several thousand ascents, and are a little polished but otherwise fine. Dry tooling on gritstone could reduce the line to crumbling sand in less than 200 ascents.

In reply to fishy1:




Ooooo, get you, you hard core maverick!

In reply to tom290483: FFs guys.
Stew,Chris and Burns are absolutely correct.
I've only just picked up this thread and I am local. My early years climbing were spent on Wimberry and Dovestones and we used to boulder on the isolated blocks in Chew Valley, although we did not recognise it as distinct from general climbing, which folks call trad today.
Sure, climbing as anything else, develops and changes, but dry tooling should be in moderation, if at all. I'm not sure why you would want to do it but each to there own. This quarry, no matter how skanky, is not the place and this is the point these guys are making first and foremost. Forget the aversion to dry tooling and just think about the location. Then think about why you "need" to dry tool.
Are you really a "Dry Tool Terrorist", a troll or just an insensitive yoof with a negative attitude and no respect.

In reply to tom290483:
Hold on a minute. I think some people are forgetting how people actually dry tool... It sounds to me like some of the comments on this topic are almost suggesting that dry toolers will smash they're shiny expensive picks on to the blank rock wall as if trying to use the rock as a placement! Surely saying things like dry tooling will reduce the quarry to a horrible mess of chos in a short period of time is a little bit outlandish? The OP will be using the cracks, any small edges etc to place his pick in and pull up not wildly swinging his axes into the rock and smashing it apart. I'm not saying that pushing bits of metal into tiny cracks and putting considerable force on them will not damage the rock but I think it has been blown out of proportion.
Surely falling on a nice wire jammed in a crack will have the same if not more damage?
And as one user commented "why not put in some pegs?" surely this will also damage the apparent rediculously soft rock?

I do not agree that the OP should bolt it as there seems to be ample gear placements and if not then a top rope will not give any worse technical climbing training than leading.

However I think the argument that dry tooling destroys the rock in a faster and bigger way than trad climbing has been blown out of proportion!

*let the flaming begin*

A quarry local to me saw some dry tooling action last year. Peak climbers would upon first impression would say the quarry was a horrible stinking pit however it is home to some superb routes. The dry tooling looks like it only happened the once or twice but has made a right mess of a good low grade warm up / teaching route. The scars are still there. Just because the quarry isn't used now doesn't mean it won't in the future so its best to stick to dry tooling on the many bridges across Yorks and the Peak.
Not sure what drytooling gives you anyway, a long day in Scotland will give you more overall IMO, if you are really pushing hard, say V's and over then IMO you would be a climber that has a fair bit of technical skill and sound judgement. Use that skill and judgement to think before posting drytooling/bolting questions in areas where the ethics are quite clear.
Only my own opinion on the matter, go and bolt it and tool it if you like, nobody is going to stop you but be prepared for other climbers to judge you and your ethics.
<the other bolting thread going on at the moment is more sensible and viable it would seem. I don't know the area the thread refers to but it is in an urban area with no die-hard local ethics I am aware of. It seems without the local activists concerned the small climbing area would lost to the trees anyway>

In reply to CAMDENELECTRIC:

how may trad accent do people weight/fall on nuts on most routes and rubber and hands hardly damage rock. Compare this with every dry tooled accent axes are cutting into soft rock due to the enormous pressure exerted on the rock in one pace at the point of the axe, any fall/axe placement slip might result in axes scraping down soft gritstone causing further dammage.

if you want to try tool get down to a climbing wall that allows it or do it on your own wall and witness how easily axes cut up the holds and then think what would happen outside.

Gritstone ethics have developed into aid/bolt free/no chipping/damage to the rock, as chris has said this could set a dangerous example to others and gives a bad impression of climbers.

Don't bolt it, don't dry tool on it, end of!

ps although not local I have been to the location

In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Not that I'm into drytooling at all, something I have often thought about when these threads pop up. Why not explore the Tissington and high Peak trail? There are loads of cuttings with very steep limestone that has no interest to climbers at present.

In reply to blanchie14c:
>

not sure what dry tooling gives you? its a form of training for winter climbing and in many places is becoming a form of climbing in its own right.
you only have to look at someone like Andy Turner, a guy who puts in a massive amount of time at White Goods quarry in the summer so that he is physically in shape in a specific way as soon as the winter comes round. Whats wrong with other people no matter what there current ability level to train in a similar manner so that they can become....and i quote.... 'a winter beast!'

technical skill is paramount when tooling.....you cant just smear up the rock with crampons you have to place effectively.

In reply to tom290483:


While you are patronising all and sundry, does it ever occur to you that some of those people are far more experienced than you?

In reply to Burns:
Thats the point I politley attempted to make. If the OP's profile is up to date, then to improve winter grade III the real answer is mileage on the Scotish hills for a few years. Hitting a barrier about grade V or VI may well be improved upon by drytooling but can't see that upsetting the long standing grit ethic is worth much to the OP at the moment. Like I say though, must be hundreds of tooling routes in the cuttings that are never touched...

In reply to tom290483:
Andy Turner, a guy who puts in a massive amount of time at White Goods quarry in the summer

You've answered your own question there Tom, get yourself to White Goods quarry!

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Hi Dave, you forgot Arsenbergers first law of ukc; "the harder you climb, the more valid your opinion". Looks like the case here the big boys can do the above but the punters can't play around in a sh!t hole.

The OP should just go do it, personally I wouldn't bother bolting, just top rope, its only training after all.

Wow! three trigger words in one post; dry tool, top rope, bolting. Just add abseil chain for a knee jerking rant fest.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

You are absolutely correct. Good post!

In reply to ramon marin martinez:

Dry tooling at white goods or white cliffs of dover; fine. lancs quarries no thanks.

In reply to MattJP:

Although I havent read all posts word for word, you dont seem to have anwered the question to either myself or Simon.

In reply to tom290483:
Tom I respect your openess and bravery by asking the question in the first place. 3leggeddog has made a good point and it does ring true. In reality yes hard climbers do tend to dictate ethics in that climbers who are doing what is cutting edge can set new ethics and until the ethic is tested i.e climbed in a better style than a routes FA. The new ethic is accepted there after. Milestone for example is a major crag. The ethic used to be that aid and pegs were the accepted ethic. These routes were then free climbed without pegs so a new ethic is spawned. If 'your' quarry has no ethics <due to there being no established routes> then yes, really you should be able to set the standard. If I better your routes by not using your bolts, then the new ethic is born - no bolts/pegs. Its daft isn't it, all this ethical debate! It is no secret that Kinder Downfall has been done it less than ideal winter conditions so in effect, drytooling already gong on in the peak on an uber classic rock climb. Topropers get slated here weekly yet toproping a high E number is fine! A little backwards it seems if you offer the augument that a high E number grit route may well make use of a critical pebble, toprope working of the route will increase the chance of said pebble breaking off. Thats hardly going to happen on a VS is it? Yes the argument then exists that toproping easy classics will polish them thus changing the route, so will wind and rain change routes but that can't be stopped eh? What is more impressive - Dave Mcleods style and accent of Echo Wall or if Dave had gone and on-sighted Strawberries? It would have been the several E grade lower Strawberries for me but it doesn't matter either way, Dave's Echo wall is testing new standards as was strawberries. To on sight the latter would break a 30 odd year hoodoo, a first brit on-sight, in a better style that the original ethic. Tell ya, its a minefield this ethics larks! I'm suprised nobody has picked up on my suggestion of the trail cuttings though? Why not, they not doing anything else are they?! Virgin 'rock' where your own ethic could be set and tested....

In reply to ruckman:


Dry-tooling has never been and never will be tolerated in the Glen. There have been a few transgressions over the years, but they were isolated instances and are less visible now. To the best of my knowledge no new scratches have appeared recently.