UKC

I'm sure this has been done before but still ...

What sport grade do people reckon Resurrection would get?

Also interested in people's thoughts on Right Wall, Warpath and The Axe.

Other comments as to how pumpy, safe etc these routes are would be welcome.

I'm trying to psyche myself up for having a go at some of these routes this year, although I suspect I need to get a good deal fitter after spending the winter bouldering on the grit.

In reply to kingholmesy:

Good luck matey, drop us a text when you plan to do it, I'll come take pictures, and try not to get landed on if you fall off this time.

PS I have nothing to actually contribute to this thread.

In reply to kingholmesy:

I reckon Grooved Arete could be F3+ and maybe Cneifion Arete maybe F2?
The Snowdon Horseshoe is probably approaching F1?

In reply to kingholmesy:

Sport grade for Right Wall?

If only Monty Python was still going.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I appreciate that Right Wall ain't no clip-up, I'm just trying to get an idea of the physical/technical difficulties of these routes.

In reply to kingholmesy:

Less than 0/10. Must do much better

In reply to kingholmesy: my understanding is that resurrection is frog harder than right wall. Seems tho nobodys keen to give rw a frog.Must be the rests n runouts. anybody ??

In reply to kingholmesy:

None (because it's not a sport route), but memory of previous discussions says I might point you here...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...

In reply to petestack:

Cheers, that's more the sort of thing I was after, and may in fact be the thread I had in mind.

In reply to kingholmesy:

Rather than asking "what sport grade?", try asking "what french grade?"; this, after all, is the grade that a frenchman (or woman) would give it, sport or trad.

In reply to kingholmesy:
In reply to kingholmesy:
6c+ - safe
6c - struggle to hurt yourself on it but feels bold
7a - safe but still feels exciting and exposed/awesome. Pumpy headwall.
dunno
Yeah sounds like a plan. Good luck with 'em!

In reply to kingholmesy:

French sports grades would be: Right Wall 6b+ Resurrection 6c and Lord o/t Flies 7a

In reply to kingholmesy: I can testify that Warpath is safe - I took a good couple of lobs off it!

Resurrection is also completely safe as the photo of Tom mid-air in my gallery can testify.

About as much as I can say about grade is that both Right Wall and Resurrection both felt hard and near my limit for trad.

In reply to Mark Stevenson, Caver and Steve Ramsden:

Cheers guys. I guess I ought really just to get on it and find out for myself. It felt like spring was in the air this week, which has got me excited for routes.

In reply to caver:

Not done LOTF but I don't think you're too far out with the other two grades.
Just spent the last two months climbing French euroslabs and I've done quite a few 6b+'s and 6c's which were much much harder than Resurrection or RW. I actually thought Resurrection was easier than RW but many people don't.

Enty

In reply to Ian Parsons:

What's the difference Ian?

Enty

In reply to Enty:

Hi Enty,

I guess Ian is pointing out that were Resurrection to be in France in it's trad state, it would receive a French grade...

In reply to jon:

Oh, what do you think about RW - I'm always interested in this.

I was on a 7a at Baumme Rousse yesterday which would have been E6 6b on nuts!!!!!

(notice I say "on" and not "did")

Enty

In reply to Steve Ramsden:


The Axe - 6a+?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Really - I've booked my flights!

Enty

In reply to Enty:

Probably more like VI/7 at the moment!


Chris

In reply to kingholmesy: so why not search then?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=9&dates=1&na...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=216852
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=9&dates=1&na...

In reply to Enty:

I think people are always putting RW down. Actually I haven't got a clue (well I have really but...) As for the Axe, it's not very hard, but 6a+... I'm not so sure about that one Chris! One thing for sure is that if those routes were bolted, they'd just be very mediocre sport routes. They are brilliant because they are as they are.

In reply to Enty and Jon:

Yes - this is a bit of a red herring, intended to pre-empt the argument that is often put forward in this sort of discussion (though not this time, so far) that you can't apply "sport" grades to trad routes; as Jon suggests, although it may be a struggle for some whose only experience of french grades is in the context of sport routes, it wouldn't be a problem for a french person to whom they are simply "rock" grades, whether bolted or not. So I would say that the only difference lies in the way they are sometimes perceived, rather than in the terms themselves; "sport" carries the suggestion of excluding trad, whereas "french" can include both.

A few years ago I did a couple of 6b+s at Barrots (Monsant) - the two immediately above the approach path as you arrive at the middle tier - and I remember thinking that, as far as the physical difficulty was concerned, they were at least as hard as Right Wall. I mentioned this shortly thereafter to one N Foster who had recently returned from somewhere in France - the Ardeche, perhaps, or some such; he thought for a moment and then opined that, wherever it was that he had just been, Right Wall would probably have five bolts and a grade of 6b.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I'm really looking forward to having a look at this French Trad place near Annot.
It looks wonderful and it will be interesting to see what the French grades are like there compared to French bolted grades say like at St Leger.

I have to say Neil wasn'nt far out with the RW + 5 bolts = 6b equation.
I wish someone had told me that in 1987

Enty

In reply to Enty:

What would that be? I have been on a fair few some easyish others desperate

In reply to kingholmesy: I never understand the point of these sport to trad comparisons. At first I thought that this was one of those "I can climb 7a and now I want to climb the North Face of the Eiger as I have heard there is nothing harder than HVS on it" type of posts but I see that you have led E4. Why bother with the translation to French grades? Doesn't the UK technical grade provide you with the information you want? If I had previously led E4 and spent a winter bouldering on grit I would consider myself ready to attempt any or all of the routes you mention. Any concerns or questions I would have would be with regard to the protection, run outs etc. and not the French grade.

Al

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Have to say you missed something here and I'm guilty as (not) charged...

In reply to petestack:

Although I did simultaneously manage to point the OP towards previous discussion of these routes and am grateful for the reminder that we're really talking French grades in this context!

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I've climbed on the specific crag and route that Neil was referring to (I think). 40m 6c (tough at that) with eight bolts.

In reply to tradlad:

I've always found these comparisons very useful. If an experienced climber has a good element of boldness in their climbing, knowing that a UK trad route with a bit of a reputation is only 6C or 7A for example can be very useful.

Like I said, If I's have known RW was 6b back in 1987 I'd have been like a rat up a drainpipe and not put it off for 15 years lol

Anyone got a French grade for The Cad or The Bells

Enty

In reply to Grimpeur ancien:

ha ha - on reflection it was probably E4 6a !! A route up on the top ledge - very very streneous and pumpy. Arnold fils de Crapaud or something - 3 stars.

Enty

In reply to Enty:

French grade for The Cad is easy - friable.

In reply to Enty:

Ahh yes I know what you mean!

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Phew - not sure about that. I only seconded it and the moves off the stance are tricky and blind.

The moves high on the arete quite hard.

I'd go for 6b+ mesen.

In reply to tradlad:
Well personally I think it can help a lot to know what the French grade would be. I never had problems on bold trad routes, so knowing that something had a very low French grade in comparison to the E grade would give me the confidence to get on the route. (And no, the Brit adjectival and tech grade would not always give me the necessary info. If Chris Craggs is serious about The Axe at 6a+ then I would not have hesitated to do this many years ago. (Though I don't quite see how E4 6A can also be 6a+)

In reply to tradlad:

No.

In reply to martin heywood:


I see Enty has already said this. Anyway I am sure lots of us feel the same.
I also remember seeing Flashdance (E5 6A) down as 6a+ in Leigh Mcginley's old slate guide which struck me as an anomoly at the time. Maybe very "old skool" 6a + ?

In reply to kingholmesy:


Extreme Rock + the various N Wales guide surely give enough info?

In reply to Enty: No I still don't get it. The only thing I can think of is that climbers who have come to trad from a sport background may need the reassurance but I'll bet your going to prove me wrong now.

Does the UK technical grade not provide you with the same information?

Al

In reply to tradlad:




Once again, no.

In reply to tradlad:

A Brit technical grade is VERY broad. Just think how many French grades you can fit into Brit 6b, for instance.

In reply to tradlad:
By that logic Wellington Crack at Ilkley and Fingertip Control at Anglezarke would get the same French grade as they're both E4 5c; but they're radically different routes: one's a pumpy crack with as much gear as your arms will allow you to place and multiple 5c moves, and the other's a solitary 5c move a long way above the gear.
So they'd be several French grades different.

In reply to jon: I still tend to just add a couple of grades to get the equivilent French Grade, any discrepencies I put down to the subjectivity of grading as a whole. Perhaps I need to think a bit more about this but then again I do like things do be kept simple.

Al

In reply to petestack:

Sorry Pete - wrote that on the basis of what I remembered from skimming through the posts yesterday; I think Gordon's suggestion is similar. Note to self: read the thread!

I think that where this sort of exercise has the potential to be useful, as opposed, perhaps, to "interesting, but largely academic" is in preparing people for what to expect when venturing abroad to trad areas where french grades are used; at least two of the Versante Sud guidebooks - Marmolada and Swiss Rock - use french grades (together with various additions - S/R1,2,3... protection grades, obligatory grades, alpine adjectival [TD,ED etc], and others), and while some of their content will fit the description "multipitch sport", a very significant amount won't. These are just two examples; the adoption of french grades seems to be spreading, and I suspect that there will be many more (although, were this not the case, one could have exactly the same discussion about what UIAA grade various routes would get - Right Wall somewhere between VII and VIII, presumably!).

In reply to tradlad:


If you mean you add two grades to the British tech grade then I am not surprised you get discrepancies.
There are plenty of 8a sport routes on the continent that don't have moves harder than Britsh 6a. Adding two grades would give you French 6c, not 8a!

In reply to jon:

Well a F6a+ could have a UK 6a move on it - I reckon the Axe has a bottom-end 6a move at the start and then is mostly juggy romping. I don't think F6a+ is massively wide of the mark - with say eight bolts in it?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I suggest 6b absolute minimum then.
BTW,YHM

In reply to martin heywood: Yep, hands up I'm essentially a trad climber but it looks as though I might be missing a trick or two here. So, and this is a serious question, if I climb E4,6a on a regular basis what sport grade do you consider I should be climbing? Because I'm buggered if I can climb 7a except on a very, very good day and half of those I have flashed have been downgraded which tends to suggest that I am an E4,6a/F6c climber at best which is consistently in line with my two grades comparison. Having said all that I approach ALL climbs in the same manner i.e. bottom up and on sight and thats even indoors.

Al

In reply to martin heywood:

Well, you doubtless have a better idea than me.

Mail replied to,

cheers


Chris

In reply to jon:


I don't know whether he was making a direct comparison with a particular route, or a more general one. Do you mean:

a) There's a tough 40m 6c with eight bolts that's physically about as hard as RW?
b) There's a five bolt 6b that should really have eight bolts and a grade of at least 6c (that's physically about as hard as RW)?
c) There's a tough 40m 6c with eight bolts, compared to which, were it on the same crag, RW would have five bolts and a grade of 6b
d) Something else?
e) None of the above?

In reply to tradlad:

You sound like a very competent E4 leader.If you nearly always onsight E4 then a well protected route would probably usually be 6b+ to 6c (to toprope) and occasionally 6c+ (with bomber pro and not too.) sustained
You are probably more than capable of onsighting 7a but you would need to practise a bit (most trad climbers climb very slowly and do not like risking falls. )Also a bit of redpointing would probably help you widen your movement "vocabulary" a little.
Might I also suggest it could help your trad climbing somewhat?

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Lost me now Ian. A general rule of thumb is that a sport route of 35m will have 13 - 15 bolts to make it feel right. 8 bolts in 40m feels bold. Neil just LOVES that!

In reply to martin heywood:

That's the most exact, precise answer that you could have written. I agree with all that - especially the last comment - which trad climbers are always loathe to admit.

In reply to jon:

True enough - a badly abused grade

Th French grade adds something only if you know if the route is cruxy or not ie 6c/+ for Resurrection tells you what? It's sustained? Has a tricky crux? The E46a and E4 6b trad grades tell you all that

In reply to jon: I will happily admit that redpointing would help me to improve on trad as would doing more bouldering. With regard to the UK tech grade being broad, I think that I would have to disagree. I find it reasonably accurate and concise and combined with the adjective grade it tells me all I need to know. After a bit of a lay off I'm just getting back into it and would add that there was a significant difference for me between UK 5b and UK 5c and I tend to use that as a measure. I could always get up a 5b but 5c would stop me if I was not climbing regularly. At the moment I'm getting up F6bs at the wall and anticipate that translating to UK5c on trad when I manage to get outdoors.

Al

In reply to jon:


Thanks Jon, I was expecting someone to call a knob....

In reply to martin heywood:

Sorry to disappoint! I'm sure someone will!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I used to be sceptical as well but since I started sport climbing more and thinking in terms of french grades occasionally I now think the french grade in addition to the UK adjectival/technical grade does give you more information. E4 6a, f6b - it'll be bold, E4 6a, f6c+ - more sustained but safer.

In reply to tradlad: i just dont see how anyone cant see the value of sport (or 'french' - never heard such quibbling over semantics) grades when considering trad. especially when youre talking E4 and beyond. even the new CC Pass guide has suggested sport grades for all E6s and above. surely that says something?

good thread here which the OP should also check out:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=315050&v=1#x4654534

In reply to tradlad:


Not even close. Lets look at say E4 6a, that covers stuff I'd walk up on a toprope to stuff I'd be off in under 5 moves. Ok, so a look at the route gives you some clues but often not the whole picture, a read of the guide text maybe another few snippets but then someone telling you it's F6b or 7a+ tells you a whole lot more. One is doable, the other isn't.

Uk tech grades seem widely mis-used, 6a could mean "there's a load of nasty hard blind moves that are probably 6b but I'm going to downplay it" or "it felt tough ish and I think E4 but E4 5c implies something it isn't so let's say 6a...".

The E4 part is even worse having all sorts of factors mixed in and covering a pretty wide band of actual difficulty/challenge anyway.

jk

In reply to jkarran: I must be misinterpreting the sports grades. I agree that E46a does not tell you everything you may want to know about a route but what I am saying is that it tells you more than say F6c as a comparison. I thought that F6c was meant to indicate the hardest single move on the route assuming bolt protection. Have I got it wrong?

Al

In reply to tradlad:

yes, the french grade is meant to be a measure of the overall difficulty of the pitch to climb in a single push from bottom to top.

I think the usual example quoted is Right Wall and London Wall, both E5 with a hardest move of uk 6a, but french grades are respectively 6b+/c and 7a+.

In reply to tradlad:


Yes, you have got that wrong. F-grade is overall physical difficulty much like our E-grade but without all the other factors.

An F-grade alone would be no more use than a classic British grade-pair but the two combined does tell you quite a bit more about most routes than either in isolation.

jk

In reply to tradlad:

The trad grade tells me a lot more about a trad route than a sport grade does but, you never have one without the other so, it just adds a little bit

In reply to jkarran: It just goes to show. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks. Thank you, I'll have to give this matter a little more thought now, I obviously don't do enough sport or hang around with enough pure sport climbers.

I have to say however that in my experience on sport mostly in Spain and Portland many of the routes I have done seemed to have been "cruxy". The crux moves are even predictable and dictated by a change in character to the rock which translates to nearby routes whatever the grade at that specific height.

To show that I am not too proud to learn can you explain a bit further. If the hardest move is UK 5c but the rest is 5a what would the route be graded? If every move is UK 5c what would the route be graded?

Al

In reply to Dark Mavis:

That's one in the eye for Andy Farnell then.

In reply to tradlad:

I've done tow 6b+'s at the local crag today - one had quite a fair bit of UK tech 6a on it and the other had nothing harder than UK 5b tech.

Guess which one was 85º and which one was 100º

Guess which one I fell off

Enty

In reply to tradlad:
6a/+ probably
6b+ ditto

The idea is absolute overall difficulty can equate in different styles

eg F6c could be E2 6b or E4 5c assuming well protected routes. or E3 6a, of course.

In reply to tradlad:

White Wall at Millstone, E5 6b.

London Wall, literally a few metres away, E5 6a.

Which one's better protected? Which one's pumpier? Now the bonus questoin, which one's harder?

Combination of English tech + E grade and French grade will tell you. (White wall is 7a, London Wall is more like 7b iirc)

In reply to steve456:
They're both 7a, but in different styles.

In reply to tradlad:


6b at the most
6c

depending on length

In reply to mrjonathanr:

Thats because sport grades can't cope very well with cruxy routes.

In reply to Bulls Crack:
Come again? I don't understand your comment. 2 desperate moves are given the same grade as 30 moderate ones = the overall effort given an equivalent grade.
If you mean that the grade tells you nothing about the style of the climbing, unlike English grading - it wasn't designed to.

In reply to kingholmesy: right wall 6b+
ressurection 6c/+ (height dependent at top)
True Grip 6b+ (one easy enough move after a big run-out)
Zangorilla 2 6c pitches
Roc ness monster 6c
Killerkranky 7a
Run Fast, Run free 7a
Poetry Pink 6c
Heading The Shot 7a/+ (height dependent)

Just a few off top of my head.

In reply to steve456: Whilst I am not wishing to get involved in the trad route French grade debate, London Wall is not 7b. It's about 7a. I have done London Wall a few times and found it relatively OK. I struggled on White Wall due to the size of my fingers.

The grade debate on French grades for trad routes is an interesting one. I like the diversity of the British system as it leaves it open to interpretation. A French grade for a trad. route does not take into account the many variables that the Brit system accounts for. The French grade is the overall difficulty of the route taking into account technicality, sustained-ness, stamina, power etc but does not take into account the difficulty of placing the gear, if there is any. That final issue could leave you in a trap on routes such as Right Wall par example.

It's an interesting conundrum.

In reply to Gary Gibson:
It is interesting but it's also illuminating to talk to foreigners who come to Britain and use the UK system for the first time.

If they're familiar with trad already (and many of them are), then they understand perfectly well that a trad F6c is going to feel much harder than a fully bolted F6c. So if their onsight limit on bolts is 6c, they won't jump on a trad 6c, because it doesn't take much brains to realise that the extra effort and time involved in finding and placing gear will tire you out.

So applying sports grades to trad routes is perfectly sensible IMO. What is not sensible is assuming that "I onsight 7a on bolts so I should onsight this E5, which my mate says is about 7a".

FWIW my thoughts re. the OP: Resurrection is about 6c/+, Right Wall a touch easier because of the better rests, although also a touch bolder.

In reply to mrjonathanr:

Just making the point that the sport grade may not help you a great deal when trying to apply it to a cruxy trad route.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Ah, I see your point better now.

I think it depends a lot on familiarity as we are constantly trying to interpret the grades of routes - they are a description of sorts.

If you are familiar with Fr grades they can work pretty well for cruxy routes. Take a route I fell off last summer, The Alien in WCJ. Now I expected to just do it, classic E4 etc, but had I known the Fr grade was 7a by the time I'd got to the crux after nothing near that difficulty I'd have known there were going to be a couple of really tricky moves and be suitably focussed on what was coming (and it's REALLY cruxy). Instead I found myself fighting harder than expected - and off.

The French grade would have helped me loads - but then I've climbed alot in France/ on bolts .

So I'd say it depends on what you're used to how helpful that system is to you.