UKC

I just bought Septembers issue of 'Climber', the first in years, and was struck by one thing, it just didn't appeal to me anymore! (maybe it was my frame of mind)
On the cover it said 'Britain's leading climbing magazine' Ha!
It seemed to cater for some form of elitist climber, the sort that goes to Denali regularly or isn't sated by anything less than an E4 over six pitches in length and generally abroad; For the regular Joe there wasn't really anything with the exception maybe of the gear reports.
Even the story at the back, I felt, unintelligable. Reports closer to home didn't really have a bearing on climbing as such.(sorry to those, that I am sure spent a great many hours, writing these pieces)
Am I the only one that doesn't appreciate the changes in Climber? (I used to think it was worth buying)
Is there another publication that is aimed at 'the common man'?
Is there a market for a new Climbing Magazine?

Steve (hacked off) W

In reply to Steve Ward:

Know what you mean. I remember when there was information (useful information like topos) on unsung crags around this country which I photocopied. Even articles on crags I might visit nowdays don't give enough route information. Gear reviews are rubbish as well - the cost of gear doesn't appear to be a factor at all - howcan you justify 80 quid or more for a nylon mac ?

Shiny format makes crap(sic) bog paper as well.

In reply to Steve Ward: Don't you think a magazine that focussed on sub E4 British climbing would be really really dull? Wouldn't give you anything to aspire to, wouldn't show you the rest of the world and the endless opportunities it holds.

Poor analogy I know, but I'm sure most of the women who buy eg Vogue won't ever wear the clothes in it, but would be really pissed off if every feature had models wearing clothes from Top Shop.

In reply to Steve Ward:
I've been noticing lately how improved Climber has become, it looks good and has interesting writers (John Horscroft, Ed Douglas, Jim Perrin). Also the news sections are better than other mags with regular columns on bouldering and alpinism. I'm not massively into these but its nice to know whats going on around the world at the cutting edge, the Mountain info section in high is too longwinded unless you know the areas it talks about intimately. It has more of a global view than the other mags and acknowledges the existence of Scotland. OTE on the other hand is really becoming crap.

In reply to Steve Ward:

Check out www.peasantmagmacedonia.com it converts into a quadcam after you`ve read it.

Yep, I used to like Climber now it`s c**p, still, OTE is pretty dire these days.
Oh my God, does this mean I`ve got to buy High? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Tyler:

Point taken about Jim Perrin and Ed Douglas but I'd still like to see some proper coverage of British crags - the sort of article that makes me think that I might want to try it out this weekend without having to shell out on the guidebook straight away. Bill Birkett used to have a good series.

In reply to Naomi:
I'm not complaining that the mag caters for E4+. But that it doesn't really cater, in the same way that it once did, for a broad spectrum of climbing abilities. It would be nice to read about something in the Vs-E2 range, with topos etc
Yes it is nice looking at the world but to me that's a land of dreams,
SteveW

In reply to Tyler:
I too bought Climber for the first time in many an issue (long flight), and actually, it seemed pretty much the same as I remember - thin on content, and not really worth the cash (which is why I rarely buy climbing mags of any flavour).

That said, I actually enjoyed some of the articles. The Gogarth one was good (plenty for the mid grade leader), the Sardinia one got me into the travel agents and the Mt Hunter article was pretty inspiring stuff (and a refreshing change from the Gritstone scene which is so much in vogue right now).

So there.

Ps I have never led E4, never mind unable to sate myself on anything less

In reply to Steve Ward:

I'm no jet-set cutting-edge Alpinist, but was utterly inspired by the Denali piece. The fact that I'm a total bumbly makes reports of continuous 48 Hr pushes and Scottish 7 at altitude all the more jaw-dropping. It's also worth noting that the Figg/Bass new route on Hunter came from a team with very little experience in the Greater Ranges. Next year it could be me or you.

JAMIE B.

In reply to Naomi:
Not trying to be to clever here...but your profile says you've been climbing for ten years and are LEADING HVS.
Just about the same as most climbers, in fact better than most. I for one would be more interested in Topos descriptions about Classic/long/interesting whatever climbs than the grade obsession which seems to prevail. I will never climb an E9 and although interested to read about Indian Face etc. I do not wish to read about the 40 repeat climbs between E7 -E9 that happened last month. How about more technical articles, ropework etc? Are you the editor? Why am I asking you? Man, I'm confused, Sorry it's been along day!

In reply to Tyler: I'll agree that the writers are good. Pity, in my opinion which doesn't usually ammount to much, that it's like finding out about what music's good to listen too then finding you have to sit a music theory exam to appreciate anything.
SteveW

In reply to Will: Chris Craggs writes some nice articles about nice areas with nice rock, like Spain and Italy (and bolts). I always buy it when it has a place I would like to visit. Selective buying!

Stu

In reply to Naomi:

"Don't you think a magazine that focussed on sub E4 British climbing would be really really dull?"

Interesting analogy - but it doesn't work for climbing. And no, the magazines wouldn't be boring if they focused more on Vdiff to HVS climbs, at all.

In fact, if done properly they would be very interesting, sell more, and have more relevence to more climbers - the majority of climbers operate sub E1.

The mags have always paid lip service to moderate climbs when the features, mini-guides/topos, and photos of these climbs should make up the bulk of the magazine.

It's surprising really because both Bernard at Climber and Geoff and Ian at High, and Gill and Neil at OTE are lifer bumblies.

That's not to say that E1 and up coverage should be neglected, of course. And the E8 and up 'bite' is of interest to us all to various degrees.

Mick
Rockfax USA

In reply to Mick:

Exactly Mick it is about balance which they don't seem to have. I gave up buying these rags on a regular basis years ago because they were so irrelevant to my climbing and my aspirations.

Wonder if it has anything to do with advertisers??

In reply to Horse:

Spot on. Equipment reviews of overpriced rain macs take up too much space and the balance in the climbing is way off.

In reply to Steve Ward:
I have been reading Climber for a couple of issues (new to climbing, me) and found it piss poor, esp. when compared to other hobby/sport related mags. I had hoped it would be a climbing version of Trail, with lots of detailed info aimed basically at the general enthusiast, but w/aspirational E-whatever grades for me to wow over, but it seemed v.much to be the climbing version of a computer mag -- full of the sort of stuff which draws in the advertising. The whole thing seemed pitched at the image of climbing as a youthful, cool, competitive sport, which is certainly not why i got into climbing.

still -- there's plenty of good info on the net. Leave Climber as something to browse through in the caff when you visit a Wall.

In reply to Horse: I wouldn't have thought that advertizers would want an elitist mag that caters for a minority
They might prefer a broad spectrum range within a mag which hopefully would equal higher sales which would equal more publicity.
Maybe it is time for a new magazine!
SteveW

In reply to Stu T:
NOOOO!!! Chris Craggs articles are generally dull. They are all the same "This is a fine coastalmountain crag with advantage of a beautiful walk in eing next to the car. The first route you come to is XXX and is a fine introduction to the crag. Next to that is YYY which is touch harder at EX, this must have been a tough challenge in 19XX with big bootsonsight. Next that are the real challenges of the crag, the soaring groove of ZZZ and the arete to the left." Throw in a picture of Colin Binks in a silly pink peaked cap and thats it. Its a formula applied to every crag he's written about. I hope he doesn't read this as I bet he's a really nice bloke and a keen climber.

Unfortunately the argument about what makes a good mag will not reach a conclusion here, some people want cutting edge news others articles about stuff they can do (why not just go and do it then). For my part I want to read about cutting edge stuff for the same reason that if I watch football on telly I want it to be of premiership talent not some cloggers on hakney marshes. After all this is a sport....

In reply to Naomi: Yes, I'd be really p**sed off if the kind of magazines I buy featured models 'wearing clothes'.

In reply to Steve Ward: On a personal note, I sent some articles to Climber. Bernard wrote back saying he 'really enjoyed' reading them, but couldn't 'find a slot' for them.

In reply to Marc C:
I think that must be a standard reply. I've seen one too.
Maybe if more people sent in articles, the editor might get the hint that his mag doesn't cater enough for the the regular crag goer, even if the articles are rejected at first.
Stevew

In reply to Steve Ward: You read my mind mate, I was just thinking about which mag to start buying instead yesterday. The problem is that they are all crap. I read Dirt magazine (downhill mtnbiking and BSX) and I find it hard to put down. I find all the climbing mags hardwork o pick up, and even harder to find something to read - apart from the job section, which is also crap these days.
Lets stop buying these sleep inducing mags and use the internet instead.

In reply to Tyler: ." Throw in a picture of Colin Binks in a silly pink peaked cap"

I like Colins Hats. Hes a great climber as well.

Stu

In reply to Tyler:

Totally agree, both that Climber is improving and that the style of writing you describe is a major turn-off.

What I would like to see in the mags, but never do, is the occasional historical article/series. For example, interviews with climbers who were active in the sixties or seventies. They don't necessarily even have to be hard climbers. I'd just like to know more about how people saw climbing then, and what people who were climbing then think of climbing now.

In reply to Naomi:
But here's the point Naomi. You can save up and one day buy the expensive togs you saw in Vogue. On the other hand, like so many others, I will never have the time or the ability to put into making myself an e-climber, however much I enjoy being on the rock.
I may be aspirational but more than anything else I am realistic. Posssibly I'll up my grade a little (hope so, running out of mods), but I know I'm a recreational climber who'll break no ground but will enjoy myself doing the stuff I can do.
Now I don't blame Climber for not covering climbers like me. They've chosen a market to serve (yes, climbing publications are driven by revenue) and they're sticking to it. My complaint is that there isn't a publication that does aim itself at the vdiff, severe and VS climbers who form a huge section of the climbing community.
More than this Climber is also narrowly focused on a certain age group and style of climber. Ever seen a pic of someone wearing Ronhills in Climber? But I see Ronhills at the crag every time I go out. What are those people, probably aged 35 and upwards, reading? Don't think it's Climber (just invited a load of trouble on myself there, I know).
My challenge to the publishes is to do their research and aim at a market a lot of us intuitively know must be there. High does a bit, but it's all over the place in terms of design and focus. We deserve more for our money.

In reply to john cox:
beat me to it!
One of the other mags i buy is a VW mag, in that they have How To's, features, history, etc etc. Would be nice to have a very broad cross section like in that mag.
A percentage of us must be interested in the history of climbing, contributions from the likes of joe Brown, Joe Simpson and any other Joes, would be a most welcome diversion from something (High E climbs in the US) the majority of us are unlikely to achieve.
SteveW

In reply to Steve Ward: I quite like climber actually. It has a broad range of topics (bouldering and alpinism mentioned earlier) which means that there is something for everyone to appreciate, whatever level it's pitched at. The Cricketer, for instance, never has coverage of village matches but many of the players would still read it.

In reply to Steve Ward:

No, i personally hate reading about Denali and all the E9 stuff all the time....I don't find it inspirational i find it boring.....occasionally yup thats fine and interesting but as someone said above.....do we really need to know the ins and outs of 40 various E8+'s?........he's right, its an elitist load of crap. I used to buy it....not now. Mind you..with the exception of Trail or on the Hill(who regard HVS as positively suicidally extreme climbing)a lot of the mags are tending towards the same way.

More stories of the 'lower' levels ta...and before you think this is coming from a disgruntled bumblie..I climb a lot higher than that....

maybe its cos i could never afford Vogue?

In reply to Jo:
Don't mince your words Jo, Just say what you think....
Whoops, it appears you did!

In reply to Stephen:
We normally buy OTE because in West Wales that is all you can get! We managed to get our hands on the latest Climber and found it to be excellent (I love Gogarth and Sardinia is on my tick list for easter).

The problem climbing magazines face is that climbers are such a mixture of people. as many people are board by VDs as are board by hearing about E7s. They will never satisfy everybody so they go for the things that have always sold.

I find they are all much the same, dissappointing!

Becky

In reply to Tyler:
In the past couple of years I have written articles on Stanage, Vilanova de Meia & Montserrat (Spain), Handegg and Locarno (Switz) Canada, and Finale (Italy) and there has not been a single picture of 'Binky in silly peak cap' (I have just been and checked my files to see).
If you reckon they are dull then for you they are, but I hope some folks will be inspired enough to try somewhere new. In the mean time get that word processor out and lets hear from you, and always remember there are those who do and there are those who talk about it,

Good climbing

Chris Craggs

PS. City of Rock, The Dolomites, Devil's Tower are in the pipeline, along with several Spanish destinations, any interest?

In reply to Steve Ward: Climbing for me is about reality - facing personal fears and overcoming them to succeed (usually on sub extreme routes). Yes, reading about superhuman efforts on the high E climbs is boring, it's armchair bullshit with fancy numbers for those who like to talk a good climb...I'd much rather hear about personal struggles on VS's and original features and get away from the stagnant, lazy format that the magazine has fallen into. It's boring. If we didn't need a fix of something climbing related in the dark, wet nights perhaps we could stop buying this rubbish and the writers would be forced from their stupor and give us what we want. Climbers are obsessive, they buy any rubbish with a rock on the cover, and the magazine writers are dirty pushers who care nothing as long as we keep buying. And we do!

In reply to Horse:

"Wonder if it has anything to do with advertisers??"

The advertisers would be better served by more comprehensive coverage of lower grade stuff. The demographics of climbing has changed dramatically over the last ten years. There are more people in the sport, and as well as youngsters (who love reading about the cutting edge stuff) there are more and more older people entering the sport - these people have more disposable income, are usually gear freaks, they want the best and latest stuf f, they have a thirst for technical climbing knowledge (they don't want to die) , and are happy to climb between Diff and HVS.

In addition - I bet a lot of these people are excellent writers. The problem with the UK mags is that they are very passive as regards to catching and cultivating writing and photographic talent. They are usually happy with the same old faces - who, while competant don't have much to contribute in the way of novel stuff.

In fact the same old faces are editing the climbing magazines - I presume they are a bit jaded. Maybe they should get proper jobs like hanging a door or changing a car engine. Either that or they should listen to their readers a little more - maybe the web will help them.

One of the problems is that there are three magazines. This dissapates income and talent. If one of them actually did a good job, I think you would see one of them disappear.

As it is at the present, their mediocracy ensures their survival as readers and advertisers are unsure which way to turn.

Mick
Rockfax USA

In reply to Steve Ward:
I brought it as a mementoe of my 2 minutes of fame at being mentioned in the yorkshire section after putting some route up at chevin-sad I know.
Anyway looked through the rest and its mostly readable-denali and sardinia but prefer to hear about more uk stuff with pics/topos at grades that are obtainable.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
What are you Chris,a millionaires' bastard or what.Most off can't afford to do our climbing on the international stage and confine ourselves to our local crags.
Reading what Chris Craggs did on yet another sun kissed foreign crag is about as interesting to me,and about 90% of active climbers,as watching traffic lights change !
'Climber' continues to be irrelevent to most climbers because writers like yourself appear to have been given a free reign to write what they like with guaranteed publication at the end of it.
Little wonder at the dearth of new writing talent coming through.
Sorry,but most climbers just won't pay £3 for ten minutes of Jim Perrin against two hours of glossy bilge including..'What Chris Craggs did on his holidays' chapter 967.
Climbing magazines;who needs em !

In reply to Jonno:
A millionaire’s offspring - I wish! Guaranteed publication - I wish!
I'm just a teacher and fanatical climber (with no kids or other commitments) who spends all his cash and all his spare time climbing.
After 35 years rocking in the UK I find the need to travel a bit to stay motivated.
Anyway, the answer is simple if you don't like the mags don't buy them, and if you have got any decent ideas send them in - how are you at coping with rejection?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

"always remember there are those who do and there are those who talk about it, "

And then Chris - there are those who do and who talk about what they do. Which probably includes most climbers.

cheers,

Mick

In reply to Chris Craggs:

"Anyway, the answer is simple if you don't like the mags don't buy them, and if you have got any decent ideas send them in - how are you at coping with rejection? "

If it were only that simple Chris. I believe that the magazines are beholden to their readers as well as their advertizers. They don't like them don't buy them argument is a cop out. Climbers should want to buy the magazines for godsake. You know how passionate we are about our sport and how we love to read about it and stare at the pictures. Mediocraty in the UK climbing media is endemic and has been for a very long time. Many don't actually realise this because they only get exposed to the status quo and are used to what has been fed to them.

And my giddy aunt they've had long enough and the resources to get their shit together.

Prove to me that they would listen to any good ideas submitted to them. And then prove that whoever submitted that good idea that they then realized would get a thank you of the mags - like a couple of free copies.

I mean - why aren't the editors contributing to this debate here (and don't say that they are too busy) this is business surely.

cheers,

Mick

In reply to Mick:
Hi Mick,
hows life in sunny Bishop? Maybe your right about mediocraty, but I am not convinced; I don't think all of the UK mags are complete shite any more than I think the US ones are the complete bizz. I think in general climbers would rather moan than doing something about it, I've seen punters in the climbing shop pick up a mag, flick through it in seconds and return to the shelf muttering crap - a great way of checking out the content!
As to moaning about wasting £3 on 100 pages of 'poor content', perhaps that would be better value if spent on one and half pints of beer or a gallon of gas.
Anyway all the best and wait 'til you see the new grit guide,

Chris

In reply to Mick: If the editors take a look around they will find a plethora of walking mags, routes for bumblies upwards to via ferrata.
There is nothing between that and the ego routes apart from some holiday ideas, I suggested putting some of the old articles on the web to be met with a deafening silence from the editors.
The reason I think is that they are too lazy to even reply to this rant about them, come on Geoff, Bernard, and the one who does the on the edge mag tell us why we have no intermediate routes and mountain routes in Spain and Majorca that you can do with a minimal rack, eg,grade 3/4 max.
Chris Craggs, if you do a series of that type of route and don't get them accepted collect them together and publish them under something like "Intermediate grade routes up to grade iv." Should sell as much as the latest guide.

I have not bought a guide for ten years, I bet a fiver nobody has done all the routes in most of the ones I have, without new ones.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

"Anyway all the best and wait 'til you see the new grit guide"

I can't wait Chris.

As regards general mediocraty. I'm being unfair whitewashing all the content in the UK mags, they have their brilliance that is unmatched in the world: they are just generally inconsistant depending on the monthly hormone levels of the editors. The US climbing mags suffer from being too polished, although Climbing is becoming more 'real' - my god I saw the word fuck. twice this month.

If in Bishop - drop by.

Good Egg.

Mick

In reply to sutty:

"I suggested putting some of the old articles on the web to be met with a deafening silence from the editors. "

That sounds familiar Sutty.

I mean JCT should be given a monthly column. But will they....will they? Jude you out there? Will they let you...? Jeez I'd even get a subscription to read any learned text Jude had published.

all the best,

Mick

In reply to Mick:

Burn down the magazines, Hang the blessed Editor, because the stuff that they constantly print it says nothing to me about my life, Hang the editor, hang the Editor Hang the Editor etc..to fade.....

Morrisey (or Si)

In reply to Mick:
I would agree that British Mags have a brilliance unmatched... But I think this problem of content might go beyond hormone levels of the editors. From what i have read above, it seems that the MOR climber, the likes of me, climbing stuff from Dif to E2, is completely superfluous, as, it appears, is the majority of climbers in the UK. It makes me think that the editors just don't have there heart in the magazine, that what they are producing is merely a way they can draw a wage at the end of each month.
I think that were a panel made up, employing people across a broad range of ability within climbing, bouldering, Alpenism... Then the magazine would have a quality far superior to that now available.
SteveW

In reply to Mick: Hey Mick! How are you? Interesting strand, and a lot of the points will be taken on board -- I hope. (It's a fine line between being dedicated and stuck in a rut, but then I'm sure that thought has occurred to you over the years.)

Inconsistency is a British trait. Just look at out football teams.

Take care,
Ed

In reply to Steve Ward:

the only good thing in climber is some of the "tarquin's"

In reply to Naomi:

I'm new to the climbing game and am looking for inspiration. Unfortunately, having read a handful of articles on E4+ climbing I am now bored. I want to read about routes and levels of climbing I am likely to achieve in the next couple of years, not in the next 10 to 20 years.

Hell I'd love a TVR Tuscan but I'm not at the stage where I'm getting brochures (just look at pictures every so often), I've not even seriously looked at a Skoda brochure yet.

Through concentrating on the highest levels of a sport to the detriment of the popular levels of a sport the magazines may be in danger of demotivating the masses. As the postings in this thread demonstrate, many are now deserting the main media sources for climbing. Where is the motivation in that?

In reply to jude:Which Sheffieldite writes as Tarquin Thin?

In reply to Steve Ward:

Must say I like John's idea of some historical articles, how about my old favourite of Central Pillar on Esk Buttress for starters.

And if the Editors do look in on this, take a good look around you might find a few potential authors/good stories worthy of your attentions.

hmmm .. surprised to find myself with a non-consensus view. I think Climber is pretty good these days and vastly preferable to OTE. Nicely balanced and well edited/ put together. Seems to me these things go through cycles dependent on the inspiration and energy level of the editors. For me other great epochs in UK climbing mags who'd be Crags in the late 70s, Mountain under Bernard Newman and OTE under Ed Douglas.

Biggest gripe with Climber would have to be too much Jim Perrin or at least could he stop writing that same basic 'when I was young we was hard' article over and over again. But I sense I'm way too middle-class / mediocre to be in his target demographic.

In reply to tobyfk:

But you can't deny that Jim Perrin is a good writer, or Ed Douglas or even Andy Kirkpatrick. My experience of writing for some of the mags is that they don't really treat their contributors like they want to hang onto them (maybe they just didn't want to hang onto me!). And I reckon what makes a good mag is good writers, good photographers, an editor who is in touch with what the readership want (rather than what the advertisers want) - unfortunately it might not make much economic sense!

In reply to Faff, King of England, Scotland but not:I didn't get the feeling that the editor was in touch with what the readership wants. Well written it may be, but it needs to be more relevant too, or at least have a broader spectrum that includes the Mr Average climber as well as the Mr E4+ and Mr Continental. (Mr or Mrs Ms)
I don't know whether the Climber Editorial staff read these bulletin boards but i think they would be advised to. A lot of material and ideas comes up here which is of far more interest/relevancy to the people that might buy the magazine ( Any Magazine)
Very few threads concentrate on elitist routes, most contributors seem to be between Dif and E4, surely these are the same people that Climber is trying to cater for.
SteveW

In reply to Steve Ward:
Me. It's me. I write Tarquin Thin. And I'm killing him off. He dies in the next issue. And do you know why? Because we did a reader survey and -- apart from competitions -- Tarquin was the least favourite department. So you've got blood on your hands.

Not that I'm bitter.

Ed

In reply to Ed Douglas:

Eh up Ed....or should I say Wassup Dude.

Yes that thought occurs often and I've a lot of sympathy with the weary old dogs at the magazines. They should know when to step aside (it's difficult to let go) - without losing control.

Maybe you should start another Ed. Mountain Review was perhaps the best since Wilson's Mountain. Shame that.

Hey I'm sure you could get the funding. I'll have a word with some angel investors over here.

Back to the grind - freakin guidebooks - at least its alpine instead of bouldering at the mo'.

all the best,

Mick

In reply to Ed Douglas:

Yes, but the kind of people who send back reader surveys are clearly not us who are too busy wasting our lives on Rocktalk. Maybe Tarquin Thin was too, well, male...what people want is a Juicy Jude (loosely modelled on the Queen in Exile)....

In reply to Ed Douglas:
Unfortunately ( i think) I never got to read any other Tarquin Thin episodes. As i said, this is the first time in years that I have picked up a copy of the said mag so it is u nlikely that i would understand tarquin fully, from one episode. It's the problem with series.
Tarquin for the regular reader would mean more than it did for me.
Sorry bout the loss of contract, maybe put some individual stories together with a start, middle and end. At least, then, the new buyer would understand.
SW

In reply to Mick:
Yes, well I was never very good at business. If I'm ever wherever you are now I'll buy you a beer and tell you all about it. What alpine guide are you working on?

Ed

In reply to Steve Ward:
To be honest, I shan't go into a long sulk about it, and as you say, a series is a bit lost on the occasional reader. And anyway, I shall be doing different things which, judging by the comments in this strand, will be more welcome -- at least here.

Ed

In reply to the general thread:
Yonks ago there used to be a "Quality Climbs" feature, usually by Bill Birkett, where a particular crag was featured, with an "easy" and "hard" route on that crag described; in fact, there was even a best of supplement. That was really good, as it often featured less well-known features and routes.

As sensible readers we all surely realise that the magazines are funded by the advertisers, and take the gear revues with more than a pinch of salt...

In reply to Ed Douglas:

Sierra Nevada, the Range Of Light: on both counts Ed - Bishop, CA.

The guide is being written with Sierra Mountain Center - Todd Vogel and SP Parker. <ahref="http://sierramountaincenter.com/">Sierra Mountain Center web site.

Beer...Talk...Mmmmm....sounds good.

Mick

In reply to Mick: 'It's surprising really because both Bernard at Climber and Geoff and Ian at High, and Gill and Neil at OTE are lifer bumblies'

Amongst much of the frequent ill-informed bollocks that emanates from USA Mick was the above. I'll reply to just that sentence, only for the sake of historic accuracy. (Ian at High) will confess to being a 'lifer bumbly' but 'Geoff at High' come on, he pioneered up to E4 on Peak grit, limestone, Wales and Norway before the invention of sticky rubber, wires, Friends, chalk made climbing a lot more 'friendly' and a list of some of his climbing partners includes Street, Proctor, Livesey and Fawcett, bumbly not. As for 'Gill and Neil at OTE' Gill has climbed F7c (approx UK E6) and Neil F8a+ (approx UK E7) a very, very strange definition of bumbly. Might not all be operating at those standards any more but still keen to get out and climb.

In reply to ian smith:

Got you there Ian eh? E4 and 8a+. Like I said you're all bumblies and you should be proud of it. I mean I am.

You don't like me do you Ian. Well I'm afraid the feeling isn't mutual. You rock Smith. And I enjoy putting a burning stick under your ass (arse) in the hope that it will raise you to greater things.

By the way - nice name dropping, but not upto JCT's or Jim Currants standards.

love,

Mick
Rockfax USA

In reply to chris H KOBI: No, I think you'll find my profile says I have been climbing 4-10 years. Actually I started climbing in 1996 but have only got into it properly since last August. So I don't think the LEADING HVS comment was entirely necessary.

The point I was making is that if magazines don't inspire you to attempt harder, more technical, climbs in different parts of the world - what is their point? You can learn plenty of ropework tips from hanging out at the crag/wall - personally I would rather learn ropework first hand than try and copy drawings in an article.

And no, I'm not the Editor - but if the vacancy arises, I'll be more than willing to take on the onerous task!

In reply to Naomi: Or maybe I'm the only one that looks at pictures of E4 and above and thinks "one day...." rather than settling for a life at HVS. Not that there's anything wrong with HVS, but I don't see anything wrong with aspiring to greater things.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Chris,
I stand corrected on the Colin Binks hat issue!
You're right, it is easy to be critical about the efforts of others and hats off to you for doing what you are doing but the argument "if you don't like it do better yourself" is also a bit of a cop out. I watch TV and wish a lot of it was better, I watch football teams and wish they were better, I sit in a restaurant and wish the service was better. I probably couldn't do better but as a paying customer I am entitled to my opinion, I am equally entitled to take my custom elsewhere and I was just pointing out some of the things I like and dislike about climber.
I also think its a bit lazy of magazines to keep printing these articles whic are just a precis of the guide to a particular crag, the editors seem to show little imagination in broadning their horizons. People are generally more interesting than another limestone eurocrag so why don't the magazines get out there and write about them. I'd love to know more of the stories and adventures of people like Graham Livingstone, Jim Holloway, Robert Jasper, Charlie Fowler. These are all people who have done great stuff with very low profiles in this country, lets read about them not El CragX.

In reply to Naomi:

Well, sorry, but thats pretty obvious isn't it! I mean yes, we may look/have looked at how to tie a kleimheist in the books but I don't think many people would rely solely on books/magazines to further their climbing 'career' - thats not what some of us are getting at...i think from reading the posts its more a caseof why do we have to read about so and so's intricate description of FA of bingly bongly E9 7c when the vast majority of us are climbing a wee bit below that and would relate more to mid E's and below.

As for inspiration coming from mags.........reading through the posts on this site (and also from 'real life' - most of the aspirations are not E8's. This site I think has a wide cross section of the climbing community contributing so i figure the responses were atypical for a 'normal' climber. Of course we all want to do an E8 sometime but in reality, we aspire to levels within our reality.

It is nice sometimes to read of Big Wall climbs and who's done a new route on Troll but its the wrong percentage of content in my opinion.

In reply to Naomi:Yes but you like to look at all the grades and not just the high ones, I like to know what others are doing as well, but also like to have normal climbing to read about.

Stu

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes:

Surely this whole thing is a fight about nothing. Someone says that they wish climber did more articles on low grade climbs? Well OTE has done about an article a month on that sort of thing plus all of the training tips. Why not let climber produce an aspirational magazine? We have a specialist interest, with the same circulation as "Tea Cosy Collectors Monthly", we do not need to have the mags battling it out for the same space on our shelves. OTE seems to be the popular choice among younger and less experienced climbers...let them do it. I like the idea of Climber being "Vogue - with rocks".

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes:

Jo, well said. There is so very much more to climbing than the numbers game. Lets here about great days in the hills, a bit of adventure and a few epics voyages. Maybe such things might inspire some of those new to the sport to move beyond the popular end of Stanage.

In reply to SammyB:

well it is a fight about nothing true, but not for the reasons you give...mainly because we can sit and moan but nothing will happen anyhow.

and as for Climber being Vogue with rocks.......so you want a magazine that talks nothing of stuff you could do, only of stuff thats way out of reach? Thats a waste of paper!
Same with Vogue (reading while waiting in surgery) - 200 pages of glossy images that mean nothing to most people.

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes: The original thread was complaining of routes E4 and above, not E8. I know a lot of people who aspire to/are capable of leading E4 - mags have to cater for them as well as the "lifer bumblies" who are happy on VS/HVS.

And do you really want intricate descriptions of VS/HVS routes that you have probably climbed at some point, or know you could climb if you were standing at the bottom of them? I don't.

In reply to Tyler: Well I like Chris's articles on far flung crags, they are informative, useful and have been the inspiration for some cracking holidays. You shouldnt be so parochial. There will always be a place for this sort of article in the mags.

In reply to Horse:

I agree it is not a numbers thing, but there is nothing wrong with aspiring to high grades, and it interests enough people on this site for there to be a publication for those that DO want to read about it. There are at most times between 3 and 5 mags out there for us, so yes at least one ought to focus on cool adventures and low grade stuff to give people a goal that is imminently achievable, but at the same time there is a call for people to see something REALLY hard. I generally only buy issues of OTE with articles on big wall stuff. Not because I stand a chance of climbing that sort of thing, but because when I climb, XYZ crag becomes, I dunno, an extension (?) of that wall. I like to see what I am aiming for.

In reply to Naomi:

I said "when the vast majority of us are climbing a wee bit below that and would relate more to mid E's and below. " in my mind thats E4/5 and below...seeing as 5 is mid way between 1 and 10 (or is it 12 now?)

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes: "Same with Vogue (reading while waiting in surgery) - 200 pages of glossy images that mean nothing to most people."

Without meaning to sound patronising, Vogue isn't really aimed at the average female climber who has crap fingernails, unkempt hair and lives in fleece. But it's still nice to look at the pretty pictures....

In reply to Naomi:

gonna bite my tongue here and back out before i do say something i regret.......(not about you!)

In reply to ian smith:

I think a climbing magazine should inspire, but I loved the way that Mountain (+ Mountain Info) documented significant climbs in a more historical way. The Denali piece in Climber was great, but what is historical in terms of British Alpinism is lost alongside yet another 'Sun Rock' article (didn't you once write something about whether sport climbing could produce good writing Mickfax?). And Mountain Info in High is a year out of date by the time it comes round...

Remember back in the day when top climbers wrote articles about British Crags? (Pollit's 'Riding the Stack' and Pritchard's Left hand Red Wall article etc). Do those at the cutting edge write...Dave Birkett?

From what I've heard, I don't think the mags particularly seek out and encourage new writers and I think good photographers could be photographing more interesting things. Take the logo shot and then take one of someone having a gnarly time on a VS.

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes: Boo. Come on, call yourself a Barbarian?! Stand up and fight like one!!

In reply to Naomi:

Right, ok...Vogue (sorry to digress) - 200 pages of utter and complete claptrap. Clothes no one in their right mind would wear with women (so thin you could use them as a nut key) done up looking like they've just fallen 2000ft (hairstyles)and the cost? jesus christ....£3000 for shoes? FOR A PAIR OF SHOES?????

It draws parallels with a lot of magazines.......not just climbing ones........there seems to be a theory that we ALL actually want to either look, behave, eat, dress, have our homes, climb, etc like the 'elite' .........bugger off!

and i wish people wuld read posts sometimes.........i don't think anyone has actually said that NO stories on mega climbs should be included.........just cut down on the amount/percentage of content!

In reply to Steve Ward:

As pointed out previously it's the same old faces in the mags, Grimer, Perrin, Birtles, Craggs etc. etc. Not that there is anything wrong with that but it does suggest that the editors do not have the confidence to try something new or take a chance. There was an old, old thread on here about people posting articles to OTe with a less than gratuitous response.

Surely it would be possible to produce a magazine (or re-invent a current one) which did cater for the majority of climbers (VS & HVS) with route topo's crag descriptions and experiences of climbs to aspire to i.e- E1 - E2 which most climbers will probably achieve at least once in their lives.

New E8s and Boulder problems require coverage, but in the "news" section. But likewise, bouldering venues also require reviews, i.e- Caley, Widdop, Burbage South..... there is room for mountain VDiffs as well.

I haven't bought a mag for years, but I bought OTe and the 'Scottish News' was all about the new hard routes put up, nowt about where was good and where one could reccomend to get away from the madding crowds.

The best mag i ever read was the 100th issue of High, which had all of the Articles ever published (the true story ones) like "Indian's Head Soliloquy" and "Gill and Ron Fawcett's road trip to the states" and Joe Brown's account of falling off the pedestal on the drue.

When was the last time you read an article like "My 1st E1/HVS", an Experience we can all relate to, and the feelings we encounter in such situations are the most memorable in climbing. The editor's should give authors of such articles a regular 2 page spread, not much really considering how much they give to advertising, which no-one pays attention to anyway.

Maybe JCT should have a column, but certainly not a regular X amount of pages to the expense of readers' climbs. Her articles in OTe weren't that interesting. Ironic though that the OTe editor told her to check out this website, yet they themselves seem oblivious to the comments regularly being made here about themselves.

I believe a mahg that covered topo's, mountains, scrambles, obscure crags, VS - E2 routes in the main, and then Hard new routes boulder problems in the news section would be marketable. I also believe it may have to have more pages to accomodate this, but there's probably plenty of people willing to pay £5 a month for this. Especially if you can keep picking it up and reading something new for 2 weeks, rather than 2 nights like all the current mags.

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes: Vogue - sells thousands of copies a month? Climber - sells thousands of copies a month? Obviously the demand is there for both, or they wouldn't keep going. If people were really that pissed off with Climber, wouldn't they just stop buying it? I'm sure the editors would soon get the message.

Digressing slightly - £3000 for a pair of shoes? At the end of the day, expense is all relative. If you are earning enough, spending £3k on a pair of shoes will be the equivalent of you/me spending £30 on a pair. I'm sure most women who buy Manolo Blahniks don't flinch as they hand over their credit card. Equally, I guess most climbers don't fret too much when they pay for new gear. You buy what you want don't you? If you don't want it, don't get it. QED.

In reply to WillyB:

And then there's Summit! OK, we don't pay, but are always after good articles on...anything.

Although a lot of the content is "good practice" info, or "technical info" on gear, we always try and make space for interesting articles on any aspect of climbing & walking.

So, contributions always welcome - alex@thebmc.co.uk

In reply to WillyB:
Fully agree, but 2 nights????????????
Come on. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
I read everything in both High and OTE in the space of a 90 mi flight!
5 quid for a mag that caters for my climbing ability in the lower grades? I'd buy it.

In reply to Barbarian Queen of Scottish Hordes:

I did read the posts, and do know what I am saying. If all the magazines were built in the way that you are suggesting there would be no choice. I was being emphatic to make a point (very minor really). 3 mags...should they all be the same? No. Lets see Climber as a home for Alpinism, Big Wall Climbing, hard sports climbing and frontier pushing stuff. OTE can quite easily sell as many copies as it already does and produce technical articles, how to's, inspirational articles giving people options, pointing out new areas and giving a broad range of low to mid level routes and crags.

To be honest, I don't buy 'em anyway cos I'm not the sort of person that cares what Joe Climber does. I tend to do my thing, but I do know that this is a really silly fight over something that will undoubtedy not change.

Sorry if I irritate. I'm having that effect on people at the moment.

The real question is...does anybody actually read High? What purpose does it serve?

In reply to SammyB:
What purpose does High serve? Self congratulatory cobblers to all who go to the big ranges and follow the "original route of 1921 by Lt. Col. VD Bar (and scar) rtrd. With a slight variation that they went 2 meters to the right of the route on pitch 34."

In reply to SammyB:

You may have, but some don't.........anyway, we agree on some points which is quite good for people on here!

I too, and i guess most people do, do my own thing.......oh, no....i'm gonna stop here.......this thread is in danger of being re hashed.........

*backs out gracefully* to read Chicken Farmer Monthly

In reply to:
The articles, such as Chris Craggs', have a place in magazines as long as there aren't too many of them. How else do we find out about sunny rock climbing destinations? I tend not to read the articles at the time (or maybe just the introduction) but if I am planning a holiday it's a great resource.

I would also like to see more historical articles in magazines. As for grades - I think that you need to cover the entire spectrum. Give us something to relate to, aspire to, and dream of.

In reply to Naomi: Vogue may have no relevance for you but it still sells and it still makes money.

You're still missing the point. What's needed is a mag that is correctly targeted. Mags can never be all things to all people or they would never sell their advertising. And by the way, that's whay they are their for. Revenue.

There just happens to be a gap in the publishing market and I can't figure out why it's not being filled.

In reply to HarryH: I'm not missing the point mate! As you say, Vogue still sells and it still makes money, just as Climber and OTE do. Again, as you say, magazines can never be all things to all people - I reckon Climber/OTE have a reasonably fair spread across the grades as, contrary to popular belief, they do have articles on sub E4 crags on a regular basis (see the article on Shepherds in last months OTE as an example). By doing this they cater for all grades of climber, from beginner to E4+ flasher (if you'll pardon the expression). So what's this gap in the market you are on about?

In reply to HarryH:

So what you're after is a climbing magazine which is aimed largely at the average grade climber. A mag for the V.S climber everywhere. Great. I don't think anyone would argue that if you can make this interesting it would sell very well and appeal to more climbers than the present setup.

So, whaddya gonna put in ya mag?

Well, we've got topos and descriptions of classic climbs "the roof is turned on large holds which gives...." Yawn.

We've got a sort of "readers climbs" section. "It was a bit scary but I didn't fall off. Then we went to the pub". Yawn.

The problem is filling such a mag with content. Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that there's nothing interesting about mid-grade climbing. I reckon that some of the best articles I've ever read in climbing magazines (a short walk with ron, by Pete Livesey or stanage thru the grades by grimer) have either been about mid-grade climbing or the standard of the climb wasn't relevant. It was good writing, end of story.

What I am saying is that perhaps less interesting material is produced from mid-grade climbs. I can think of two reasons for this. One is that mid-grade climbing throws up (in general) less epics and adventures than high-level stuff. The second is that real climbing fanatics, those who live, drink and dribble about climbing are those who are most inclined to write about it. These people are also unlikely to operate at V.S or below. So naturally our magazines get filled with high-grade stuff.

Magazine editors are not grade-obsessed bigots. If they're presented with a bit of work with they feel is genuinely good writing about a Severe climb - they'll publish it. You can criticise an editors taste - but I reckon the grade imbalance in magazines is much more to do with the contributors than it is to do with some concious strategy of our magazine editors.

In reply to Queen Nim of the North: Sorry - forgot to change name back to normal!

In reply to the all new midget show: Thank God - the voice of reason!! Round of applause for someone who also thinks a VS based mag would be dull beyond words!

In reply to Naomi: IMO, climbers buy climbing magazines for much the same reasons people buy other 'lifestyle' mags. They speak to the fantasy side of our personalities. They're glossy, and hold out an image of how we'd like to be (fitter, wealthier, sexier, slimmer, etc.). Climbers also like to hear ther latest 'goss' in the climbing world (voyeurism - satisfying our imaginary belonging to a climbing 'community'), get information about routes and gear (satisfying our belief that if we only had enough information and the right gear, we could all be cruising E9s and soloing El Cap). Most important of all, by buying a magazine in the area of your interest you confirm to yourself that you ARE a climber, trainspotter, scuba diver, whatever. I suggest, however, that most climbers don't read anything like 100% of the mags' content. Personally, I don't buy High, rarely buy Climber, and sometimes buy On the Edge (but often I just skim through them). So, your statement 'if they were so rubbish no one would buy them' is a little too simplistic. They're certainly not rubbish, but I'm sure - from what many people have posted - that mag editors could do more market research to find out what climbers want to see. Also, there's very little competition - it's very difficult to start up a new magazine or brand - so there's something of a captive audience. And, being voyeuristic, aspirational sheep we all are to some degree, we will carry on buying - regardless of our dissatisfaction with some elements of the mags.

Anyway, that wasn't my main reason for posting. I want to know what these Manolo Blahniks are, where I can get them, do they have Stealth soles, and will they boost my leading grade ?

In reply to the all new midget show:
Well, we've got topos and descriptions of classic climbs "the roof is turned on large holds which gives...." Yawn.

We've got a sort of "readers climbs" section. "It was a bit scary but I didn't fall off. Then we went to the pub". Yawn.

I disagree, just like a good teacher can make a dull subject interesting so could a good writer talk even the poorest climb up. Phrases like ' the positions were magnificent' I have seen used on lots of climbs right through the grade range. Also I find no difference in stories told by friends who lead E5 to those who lead S, the same words crop up, pumped, gear, sweating fingers, scared. I mean a couple of HVS leaders taking about an epic E1 will sound the same as a couple of E4 leaders talking about an epic E5 if you see what I mean. It's all about how it's told and whether it's well written, when someone tells you about a climb they've done if you did it ten years ago, it's still great as they remind you of all the good bits and you almost wish you could forget it all and do it again cold. Hope I make sense.
Cheers
Toby

In reply to Marc C.: Beautifully phrased as ever Mr C (didn't you used to be in The Shamen?) - don't know if I would agree we are aspirational sheep (maaaaaa) as, to my knowledge, sheep don't whinge on about issues half as much as RT posters do. If people are so dissatisfied with their mags they should write and tell the editors exactly what they do want to see. If enough people did it (ie the majority) I'm sure they would change the format as requested.

I've got a pair of Manolo's you can borrow if you like - do a trial run before you invest. Find the pointy toes really +ve on limestone. Not really grit boots but see what you think. Hey, they've got me up to HVS!!!

In reply to HarryH:

I don't think the problem with Climber (and the others) is so much with the subject matter, more the style and content detail.

None of them have a clear identity in the way the US and continental mags do - if you read a British climbing article, would you honestly be able to guess which mag it came from? Something that's not true of the UK walking and travel press.

They rely far too much on tedious 'local news' - it's an easy way to guarantee a certain no. of pages will get filled each month, but do we really need it in that detail? Surely a page of major highlights would be enough. Pad out the mag with historical pieces instead. Far more interesting to most of us, and I would think not a great challenge to produce.

Most of the feature pieces are dull, unstructured, and lacking in real informational content. Under-researched, under-thought-out and lazy. Maybe that's because a lot are written by good climbers, and good climbers aren't necessarily good writers. But in that case, it's the responsibility of the editor to lick things into shape. I sometimes honestly wonder if the editor even reads the articles, based on the number of spelling/grammar howlers that creep in. On the rare occasions you see an article by someone who can write, and knows what they're talking about too, (and I can only think of Andy Kirkpatrick at the mo) it simply shines out.

If they're suffering from poor/falling circulation, as I believe they are, they've only themselves to blame.

And the price! I worked out a while ago that a year's sub buys 2 or 3 guidebooks, and I know which I'd prefer.

In reply to Toby_W: Just to add, the mags should talk about it all (variety) & I think they do. I only pick one up when there's something that catches my eye and I want to read it.
Cheers
Toby

In reply to Toby_W:

"I disagree, just like a good teacher can make a dull subject interesting so could a good writer talk even the poorest climb up."

Which was precisely my point Toby. Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but what I was saying is that if the mags are bad, blame the lack of good climbing writing, not the editors grade-obsession (which doesn't exist).

My other point, which is probably where confusion arose, is that (for the reasons I gave above), hard climbing tends to throw out better writing. Which explains the grade bias of the mags....

In reply to the all new midget show:
"Which was precisely my point Toby"
Oh yes so it was, do forgive I sloped off yesterday to go climbing & now I'm tired and ache.
Cheers
Toby

In reply to the all new midget show:
Just trying to catch up with replies...
I can't agree that only high E grade climbing is the only thing that...a/ encourages good writing or b/ throws up epics. It's the writer that instils adventure, not the subject matter.
Hown many books have you read that just don't inspire, yet they describe stuff which you aspire to. One of my favourite books is Joe Simpsons 'Touching the void'. I feel it was totally the writing that made it inspirational.
I tried writing a few years ago, I'll never be that good, but I feel that just a few articles within Climber, written well, encompassing a broader range are needed. (For me anyway!)
My own paltry effort can be read on my website, possibly crap, but more like what i want to read in conjunction with the aspirational harder routes.
http://www.fionabeetle.co.uk/climbing.htm
SteveW

In reply to Steve Ward:

No, I'd agree there - high E grade climbing isn't <it>the only thing</it> that gives
good writing or produces epics.

I only said it was more likely to do both these things. You nicely prove my point with Toching the Void - an epic on a cutting edge route which inspired a climber (who had not written before) to tell his tale. The excellent writing made it a classic.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to say...

Thanks for sharing your efforts, btw, the more people that try - the more good writing we'll have - I'll read it when I get a spare five (promise!).

In reply to Naomi: Dr. C to you. My PhD was on The Woman as Climber: A Feminist Iconography of representyations of women in British climbing magazines 1990-1997. Better go, these blinking Manolos are killing my feet - but, hey I feel sensual in them.

In reply to Queen Nim of the North:
I too would consider an all VS mag to be boring beyond words. What I am getting at is a mag like climber might be improved if it included VS articles in the same way that it extols the virtues of E8 climbs (alongside those E8 articles). Two points here...
a/ It would give the mag a wider appeal, a majority of us would find something of interest within its pages.
b/ It would increase the content, ergo, more than 90 minutes of reading.
SteveW

In reply to Naomi: What makes you so sure that sheep don't whinge? All that plaintive baaing; it's just one long whinge, about the quality of the grass, about the rain, about the sun, about the amount of time they have to spend travelling around the country, about the government's piss-poor handling of F&M ("s'only a sniffle, after all"), about the lack of entertaining articles in 'Grazer', 'Ruminant Monthly', 'On the Hill', 'High Fell Grazing' etc....

In reply to Steve Ward: okay. more sensibly now. The only copy of Climber I have is one I purchased for charity in my local Cotswolds. It's the July 99 issue. It has articles about Stanage, Chris Bonnington, British Alpine rising stars. Seemed pretty well balanced to me. Maybe the stress on the past tense is appropriate here.

Oh yeah, one last thing, there was a picture of Paul Higginson on a boulder problem at PYB, a couple of pages before the CB article. No text, though. Now, where have I heard those two names together before....

In reply to captain paranoia:
I'll swap my Sept 01 issue for your July 99!

In reply to Steve Ward:

"if it included VS articles in the same way that it extols the virtues of E8 climbs (alongside those E8 articles)."

Quality isn't related to the difficulty of a climb, although many think it is.

Mick

In reply to Steve Ward:

I think that what you are saying; observing is that there is not a lot of difference these days between Climber and dare I say - High Mountain Sport the official magazine of the BMC.

Climber for some obscure reason, is apparently trying to entice the BMC back.? Hence the elitist content these days. Considering the way in which the BMC dumped the magazine in favour of High in 1984 I would have thought that Climber would been more cautious and stayed with the requirements of their long term readership. I believe it used to be called - loyalty.

But you are correct, there is a market for a new Climbing Magazine.

Dennis M.

In reply to Dennis:

From the publisher's point of view it's very profitable to be the official organ of the BMC and have that 'captive' audience.

But from a readers' point it is a negative. The BMC organ can just feed the reader horse shit and the reader has to accept it .

I think there is a conflict of interest there. I've always held the belief that the BMC have it's own magazine, which is Summit, then the BMC treats each of the magazines the same: that being all three have a BMC page produced by the BMC.

This would mean that no magazine has an unfair advantage and the playing field would be level, and their quality would have to increase to stay competitive; the reader would benefit.

Mick

In reply to Mick:
In an ideal world eh?
Unfortunately the climbing public are playing uphill with the wind in their faces.
Maybe a fourth magazine could redress the balance and provide some well needed competition to the complacent three.
SteveW

In reply to Steve Ward:

Hmmmm...there is a lot of Chris Bonnington being talked above but also some good stuff. As I said before you want

Quality writing
Quality photographs
Quality Editors (and possibly also designers)

The argument used by the three British mags seems to be that the market is too small for them to afford to pay the price required for quality. It may also help if they treated their contributors like the people who can actually make a magazine.

I decided to send my first climbing article to all three magazines simultaneously and asked them to get back to me if they wanted to use it. OTE got back straight away and said yes. I immediately informed the other two magazines so that they didn't use it. I got a very upset response from Geoff B at High moaning that he was planning to use my article and that wasn't how contributors were supposed to operate. Well, I'm sorry Mr Birtles, but I'm not going to wait forever for you to decide, at your convenience, when you are going to use my articles, and not even have the decency to tell me that you want to use it, when other mags may be quite happy to commit themselves. Since then I've only sent the very occassional bit of writing and photography I do to OTE who have used all of them. That being said you get paid very little and you are lucky if you get your photos back within six months which is hardly going to attract good writers or photographers. Now Charles Arthur, who is a well-paid and very good journalist, used to write quite a lot for OTE but hasn't done anything for ages. It may be his work and family commitments, but I don't suppose the pocket-money payments would encourage him over much. If he's got to juggle lots of things which one to drop? Anyway no doubt Charles will tell us his thoughts on the subject if he wants to and he may well not want to because he's too diplomatic.

In reply to Steve Ward:

"In an ideal world eh?"

In a fairer world Steve, or a more objective world, where the quality of the product is judged rather than the personality and connections of the the producer.....if you know what I'm getting at.



Mick

In reply to Faff, King of England, Scotland but not: Hmmmmm, interesting. Personally I think High MS and Climber pay quite well for articles and photos, certainly better than 'pocket money', not over generous but not vastly different to any other mags with similar circulations. I have never had anything published in OTE. It would be interesting to see the relative rates for the three mags. Can anyone supply this info?

In reply to Al Evans:

The going rate for 1000 words among most magazines when I was actually trying to make a living out of it in the early Eighties was about £150. OTE was paying less than a third of that (plus a free mag!) when I last wrote for them (and that included two photos)- mind you I don't know what they pay their more prolific writers like JCT etc. It may be they pay the ones they want to keep more, I don't know. I may be a slow writer but to write something half decent, check it, correct it, add a few photos, send it off, try and get the photos back, etc. must take a good day of work plus your own costs so you may end up getting £30 net for a full days work. There are not many writers out there (if any) who can make a living writing for magazines. Now if you start writing for newspapers (like Ed Douglas or Charles Arthur) or for popular general mags like...ah....er...Vogue... the rewards are much better and you can make a decent living.

Because in my normal work I would earn about £150 per day (Kings are well paid I can tell you) and my time is limited I only write if I feel the personal need for some creative buzz. If climbing magazines actually paid more I may be enticed to take up the pen more often and could justify it more easily to my partner.

In reply to Dennis:

Dennis you had me worried. The thread was over 100 posts old and I thought you weren't going to be able to manage it, but in the end you didn't disappoint. You managed to turn it round to another BMC conspiracy theory. Outstanding.

In reply to Faff, King of England, Scotland but not: Yeh, my approach to writing is similar. I get paid about £200 per day,( obviously Lord Protecters are better paid than kings) so writing is not a viable alternative, however it does fulfill a creative void and if published massages the ego. I tend to think of writing rather like many think of golf, I'll take it up seriously when I retire (or there is a counter revolution)

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Sorry about the absenteeism, but internet cafes have not quite made it to East Africa (outside of Nairobi) and then a modem packed in...

That the BMC is an important part of the picture between Climber/Climber & Rambler, Climber & Hillwalker (certainly the way that the BMC broke its contractual agreement) and moved to High for pieces-eight is common knowledge - down our way...

Dennis M.

In reply to Mick:

As you say Mick; '... there is (once again) a conflict of interest there.' A definate conflict of interests.

Dennis M.

In reply to Anonymous:
I'm not aware that Climber is interested in becoming the official magazine of the BMC, partly because, as I understand it, the BMC doesn't HAVE an official magazine anymore after launching Summit. The politics of the relationship between the BMC and magazine publishers is complex and obscure and far too boring to go into here, but it's important to remember that there is a real division between a magazine's editorial staff and its commercial staff -- or at least, there should be. One thing that interested me in this debate was the assumption that advertisers call the shots in terms of content. That's not the case. Really.

Ed

In reply to Steve Ward:
That's it, game set and match to the revolting peasants !
Interesting to see that Ian Smith,Ed Douglas and Chris Craggs from climbing's literary establishment have been listening in.Did you get the message lads ? As the man who quoted 'The Smiths' said " It says nothing to me about my life...Hang the editor,hang the editor hang the editor ! '
OK, it was DJ originally but you get the message.
I would be suprised if 'Climber' survived another couple of years.Shame really as I started buying 'Climber' when Jim Perrin had just started his column which developed into 'on the rock with' which was excellent.Why wasn't a young Ed Douglas featured with venerable ancient Harry Griffin in the same feature ? Anyone remember Pete Livesey's quirky monthly columns, Bill Birkett regular classic rock features.
Ahhh...the golden Peter Evans years.

In reply to Ed Douglas:

"but it's important to remember that there is a real division between a magazine's editorial staff and its commercial staff -- or at least, there should be."

All magazines claim this, like you said Ed, "at least there should be". But there isn't, in fact there can't be. Front cover choices can be influenced by advertizers for one. It does depend on the particular magazine as to how shallow and narrow that division is. I'll give you an example look at Climbing magazine and look at the Prana adverts that mirror a particular months news item. Klem climbs Alligator shouts Hot Flashes and Oooo look Klem climbs Alligator in the adjacent Prana advert. Not really collusion, just savy marketing on behalf of Prana?

"One thing that interested me in this debate was the assumption that advertisers call the shots in terms of content. That's not the case. Really. "

They do sometimes. The Editorial staff at some magazines do pander to the advertisers or the rock climbing stars of the advertisers. I'm sure you can think of some examples.

Mick

In reply to Jonno:

'...Peter Livesey's - quirky columns,...' Pete Livesey's spot on: hit-the-nail-on-the-head everytime column - I think you mean? Surely?

Dennis M.

In reply to Ed Douglas:

I must make a note of that: The BMC, no longer receives approximately £11,000 per annum from - High Mountain Sport... I must get the BMC to alter their 'returns' as listed in Company House...

Dennis M.

Right, let me get this right:
You want climbing mags to cover attainable grades but still do enough about hard stuff to inspire you. Mind blowing!

Some of you are left completely cold by talk of the greater ranges while some of you find it inspirational. Shock horror!!

And anyway, whats this crap about mags not catering for the average crag goer? Ed’s article in Sept Climber contained pictures of a VS, an HVS, two E1’s and a couple of E2’s. Hardly cutting edge is it? January, Dartmoor, grades from severe to E whatever. April, Idwal, May, Ogmore, June, Avon and all featuring climbs at all grades. So, what was your point exactly?

HarryH, what are you on about? I may not wear Ron Hills but my dress sense is incredibly bad, I’m old, I climb pretty crap most of the time (even if I do manage to slip in the odd shot of me on something harder just before I fall off) and I identify fully with the average crag bod. I even wrote how much i love being a bumbly. Bloody hell there’s no pleasing some people.

Becky – spot on. Climbing is a broad church. Yer just can’t please all the people all the time.

Jonno – get a fuckin’ life. If you really hate the mags that much, don’t buy them yer sad bugger. Problem solved. Even though I write for the same mag as Chris Craggs I hardly know the guy. But I do know your comments are a load of ill informed bilge. Save your spite for someone who deserves it.

Wise words Queen Nim of the North...........

In reply to John Horscroft:

Your column is one of the stars in the climbing magazine firmament. Personally I think Mr Newman has improved "Climber" enormously, whereas "OTE" lacks some of its early vibrancy when it was more of a cult mag. As for "High" it really needs to sort itself out and get into the 21st century.

As you say most people don't really have a clue what they want. Personally I think good writing and photography will shine through whatever the subject matter. "Touching the Void" was popular because it was well written, not because it was particularly what people said they wanted (stuff about VS climbing apparently) or that the subject matter was identified with my a lot of people (I mean not many people actually have experience of alpine climbing let alone Andean peaks).

Quality, Quality, Quality - am I beginning to sound like Tony Blair here?

In reply to Mick:
Yes, savvy marketing on the part of Prana. When Michael Owen puts three past Germany, who gets on the front page of every newspaper? Lokost is the man of the moment, that's all.

I've worked for a lot of different titles, both in Britain and abroad, and compared to -- say -- the motoring press, or the travel pages of national papers, the climbing press is squeaky clean.

Come to think of it, where are my backhanders?

Ed

In reply to John Horscroft:

"And anyway, whats this crap about mags not catering for the average crag goer? Ed’s article in Sept Climber contained pictures of a VS, an HVS, two E1’s and a couple of E2’s. Hardly cutting edge is it? January, Dartmoor, grades from severe to E whatever. April, Idwal, May, Ogmore, June, Avon and all featuring climbs at all grades. So, what was your point exactly? "

The subject matter is there, but the content, the quality and the delivery of that content is lacking. It's glossed over. Check out www.supertopos.com for an example of how to cover lower grade routes, then add a bit of English quirkiness, make sure that the author views his job as a celebration of the climbing and you'll be a long way to making the reader happy (well most of them).

Above all more editing and editorial direction.

"If you really hate the mags that much, don’t buy them yer sad bugger. "

You're missing the point John - that comment is a cop out.

Mick

In reply to Ed Douglas: to all the mag editors, cut the crap, i open amag and what do I find? At least 4 pages of more bloody overpriced jackets etc up for review. At least two pages of wall climbing, what has that to do with the outdoors, competitions are not what most people want in the mags, all right I dont.

I went to the much vaunted Planet fear site to look for the articles for the mediocre/bumbly/average climber in the back issues and what do i find? all the info on new routes in the alps and greater ranges but ideas for a holiday with a non climbing partner where you snatch a few days on some mountain scramble, zilch.
John Horsecroft, you do a reasonable job but if I was marking mags for content you would all get 6/10 and for presentation the same.
End of term report, could do a lot better if you tried.

In reply to Faff, King of England, Scotland but not:

(stuff about VS climbing apparently)? Or even more apparently - about cutting your already injured mates rope - and getting away with it...apparently.

Dennis M.

In reply to John Horscroft:
" Get a fuckin life'....'yer sad bugger'...."ill informed bilge'...Yes,a well structured and articulate response to a contributor from one of 'Climber's regular writers.
Hard to believe that Jim Perrin and yourself write for the same journal.
Where 'did' you hone your writing skills...'Kerrang' ?

In reply to Jonno: Oy! Don't you knock "Kerrang!"!

In reply to Steve Ward: Oh go on then. Metal is shite anyway.

In reply to Steve Ward: I think it would be extremely difficult for a new mag to find a niche. I believe the best way is for the existing mags to take notice of what people like us are saying and tailor their product accordingly. They could even use this forum or others like it to trawl for writers and new material. God knows there are enough good riters posting on here. Isn't that right Tiny Clanger? (reedy piping sound)

In reply to Jonno:
Ooh, get her! And this from the man who coined the phrase, “What are you Chris, some kind of millionaires bastard or what?” I bend my knee before such a wordsmith. Such poetry, such mastery of the English language, I’m reminded of Keats, Golding, Amis, Alexei Sayle................

Anyway, I’m off duty. Why should I put myself out to write proper when replying to the drivel you lot are pedalling?

In reply to Mick:

Editing? What the Fox hat?

In reply to John Horscroft:
'bastard' as in 'a person born of parents not married to each other,.Apart from a bit of sarcasm I never use profanities to insult other contributors.
Anyway,what's rattled your cage...the spectre of a column without a home when 'Climber' goes belly up or what ?

In reply to John Horscroft:

"Editing? What the Fox hat?"

That's proofing isn't it John? Or did you mean: Where's the fox's hat?

Mick

In reply to John Horscroft:

That's better!: '...the drivel you lot are pedalling?' Much better than your observations about people on this site in December, 2000 when you were: a) sick to death of web-whingers and b) a chat-site that has become home to some pitifully ill-informed nonsense.

Dennis M.

i've just read through pretty much the whole debate here for the first time and what most people propose (more 'average' level content generally) would be nice, and sounds good, but there's only so much to say. i think that most mags have the right sort of balance. high occasionally still has bill birketts stuff (does it?), OTE bangs out the area guides every now and again and climber has a decent range of stuff. oh, and OTE has those fantastic cartoons from time to time.

you are never going to please everyone. that's the important thing to remember. it would be nice if you could, but at the end of the day content will have to be a compromise between reporting cutting edge stuff, and bumbly level material. just get over it. there are 3 mags out each month, choose the one that suits you best and buy it.

if you don't like it don't buy it. get over it.

In reply to Mick:

Wears the fox's hat surely Mick

In reply to Jonno:

No, I'd be fine Jonno. I'd just put more on Rocktalk where you seem to be able to get away with any old crap..........

In reply to Hindu:
Ahhh,Paddy Ashdown lives.Good to have the Liberal Democrat
perspective on the great 'Climber' debate

In reply to John Horscroft:
Should be a seamless transition then........

In reply to the world:

Alright, alright, I’ll stop mucking about. It’s been a good thread and I agree with a lot that has been said. Trouble is, British mags have much smaller circulations than the yanks and tiny staff by comparison. In fact I reckon they do pretty well given the constraints. (I’m sure Mick will tell me I’m wrong, he usually does.) Sure, we all have bad months when the muse doesn’t strike and the resulting work ain’t as good as it should be but, hell we’re only human. But I reckon the variety is pretty good and the amount of stuff about medium grade climbs ain't bad - it's all I can write about cos it's all I climb. I’m interested by one of the posts though, can’t remember which one, where the guy reckoned it generally took him a day to turn out an article. Good effort son. I reckon I usually spend anything up to six or seven days turning out my drivel if I’m lucky. Now, this could be because I’m crap, a slow typewriterist, or just running out of ideas after having done a column a month for the last five years. I dunno, but I reckon most correspondents spend a good deal of time turning out there work. The return for actual time spent is pretty paltry, so money isn't the prime objective. Now if you don’t like it there’s really only one answer. Get writing and do better. You can bet all the editors are looking for the next Paul Pritchard, Grimer or Perrin, so send your stuff in. Sorry if I was really rude.........

In reply to John Horscroft:

I liked your column Guide me not unto Prostration, in the issue with JD doing Breathless on the cover.

Maybe I'm easy to please, but I quite like Climber. I ooh and ahhh at good photos of derring do, and reports of wild regions I'll never visit, by which I mean pretty well anywhere outside Cornwall, and it seems to me that there are quite enough articles on VS stuff I could do. Variety is what I want, and good writing. If editors can find someone, or something, like the Scottish word of the month, that is funny, then I'll read it, however crap the climbing. And I like review of overpriced rain macs.

Even reports of competitions aren't as dull as you'd think they'd be for me, given that I never go near a wall. The editors are canny. If you give out details of any old league for long enough, (some) people become hooked, as though to a soap opera. I'm one of them. Malc and Gaz - who the hell are they? Don't know, but I follow their ups and downs, new diets and foibles, just as I once followed 2nd division Swiss Ice Hockey, and follow football in a non-partisan, Ambrdgey kind of way.

In reply to John Horscroft:
Thanks for the apology John, I was starting to regret starting the thread. At the end of the day it's only opinions that are being expressed and i hope that some of those might be used constructively to better the readers lot.
Judging from what i've read, there are more negative replies (ie people feeling the need for some change)than posotive (ie satisfied with the magazines as they are).
I don't know how many people responded, who contribute or are connected with any or all of the magazines, hopefully those that did will at least realise that there are viewpoints which are not being covered adequately. And that was all i was trying to say.
Cheers
SteveW

In reply to John Horscroft:

"In fact I reckon they do pretty well given the constraints. (I’m sure Mick will tell me I’m wrong, he usually does.)"

I will John. The disparity between what the editors get paid and what the contributors in the UK mags is obscene. And it's misguided. Pay the contributors more and you get better quality work - circulation will rise (I know so many people in the UK who don't or have stopped getting the mags) and their revenue will increase.

The problem is that the editors are all hired hands and have little insentive to excell.

Saying that, they are paying better than they used to.

cheers,

Mick

In reply to sutty:
There's a really nice german mag called Berge which seems to be more about the Mountains and routes than personalities. Pictures are great and there's info about minerals, flowers and local culture & history as well. Different mag for a different market, but I'd buy a british equivalent.

In reply to Mick:

At least I kew you'd know better................

In reply to John Horscroft:

Aye, it was I who takes about a day to write something but then it's not up to the quality of such as yourself. However when you are short of time and you aren't being paid for it (much) then you can't really afford to work on anything that takes longer than this.

However I feel I must write again for one of the mags before the year is out. Now what would folks like me to write about......?

In reply to Steve Ward:

And right on cue, we have what must be the most useless article that I ever - started to read: 'The Quest for Mongolian Grit...' Climber, October, 2001. No, I just could not read on.

To then be faced with: 'But most of all, let's begin to - revere climbing magazines.', on the back page...

Dennis M.

In reply to Steve Ward:

Nine bloody pages of climbing in - Mongolia...

Dennis

In reply to Dennis:

I don't know - we don't get to hear much about the climbing scene in Mongolia. Seems more interesting than an article about chossy Lancashire quarries.....

In reply to John Horscroft:

"Trouble is, British mags have much smaller circulations than the yanks and tiny staff by comparison. "

Just out of curiosity, how tall are the staff in Brit mags? >:-P


Fraser

In reply to Faff:

Likewise - thought the Mongolia article was moderately entertaining and I liked one or two of the pictures. I think Mike Roberston writes well. On the other hand it did seem pretty self-indulgent. Could have paraphrased the article as: 'We went to Mongolia. It was quaint and third-worldy. We made friends with a local though we were paying him. We found some climbing on a granite outcrop but to be honest it wasn't that different to a thousand other bits of granite around the world. You wouldn't really want to bother to go there to climb but we had fun. The food was vile. Thanks to our sponsors, hope the logos are clear in the photos.'

Am I unusual because I don`t like either Jim Perrins or Ed Douglas`s articles,for some reason I think they are totally boring.

In reply to Iain:

No, you're not unusual, you're illiterate.

In reply to Dennis:

You're just Jealous....!

In reply to Faff: Does illiterate mean the number of times you can use a lighter before it runs out of gas? o)

In reply to Steve Ward:

Late to this thread, but (i) The word is mediocrity, and (ii) No more Tarquin Thin?? NOOOOOO!!!!!!! The only thing that makes my monthly trip to stand in my local library (aka WH Smith) worthwhile, now that Jim Perrin seems to have stooped writing. At least tell me you're going to have them collected and printed as a sort of Christmas stocking type book, Ed?

In reply to John Cox:

You're wrong - even in this month's Holiday in Mongolia Special, JP gets his usual 10,000 words on Other Stuff I Haven't Yet Dredged Up From The Sixties. Unless I misunderstood the meaning of 'stooped'?

In reply to tobyfk:

'has stooped' was intended to mean 'No longer has a regular column'. I know he still writes occasionally: less often that I would wish, and more than you would wish. I dare say there's a moral there!

How are the hands? Not so crusted over you can't type, I'm glad to see!

In reply to John Cox:

Dictating to my P.A. obviously ...

No you need to get out to WH Smiths more - I think you'll find he still appears monthly (more supply- than demand-led I would think).

Actually I too worshipped at the altar of Perrin many years back. I just think his subject matter needs to be refreshed.

In reply to John Cox:

have you thought of stepping into JP's shoes. Enthusiasm for verybiglongwords, propensity to lapse into latin, retro-trad attitudes, crack evangelizer, dodgy haircut ...