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Anyone read Stevies article in Climb? Just read it and it reminded me of the thread on Anubis.
Am I the only one to find parts of that article to be in really poor taste? The parts about of Anubis which werent really truthful. ???
Am I the only one to find parts of that article to be in really poor taste? The parts about of Anubis which werent really truthful. ???
"It was climbed bare, ie black, although Dave is adamant that it was good fun.
Some people have suggested that this precedent of climbing a bare rock route means that it is now open season on any route whatever the condition. Bearing in mind that this route, which is supposed to be E8, and therefore cannot be on easily hook-able features, must be a candidate for damage. Dave took a few days work to make his way up this route and had done it in summer too. HE knew all the placements and all the gear protection- it can hardly be described as a traditional approach."
If I remember correctly Dave was adamant that it wasnt dry, and the only person who though it was open season on any route was Stevie himself. LOL
Some people have suggested that this precedent of climbing a bare rock route means that it is now open season on any route whatever the condition. Bearing in mind that this route, which is supposed to be E8, and therefore cannot be on easily hook-able features, must be a candidate for damage. Dave took a few days work to make his way up this route and had done it in summer too. HE knew all the placements and all the gear protection- it can hardly be described as a traditional approach."
If I remember correctly Dave was adamant that it wasnt dry, and the only person who though it was open season on any route was Stevie himself. LOL
In reply to Scarab: Great article whatever you think of his views.
In reply to Scarab:
I would say, that given Stevie Haston's track record of winter routes and drytooling ascents, he is more than qualified to pass judgement on Anubis
I would say, that given Stevie Haston's track record of winter routes and drytooling ascents, he is more than qualified to pass judgement on Anubis
In reply to liz j: Without having been on it summer or winter? Give me a break you arse licker. It's went beyond pathetic.
My view: Stevie Haston is going to be surpassed by Dave MacLeod. Stevie bristles at this and it comes across in his posts and articles.
Dave on the other hand could not care less, he is climbing, training hard and teaching lots of people how to get the most out of their climbing. He is sucessful. Read his recent post on the Walk of Life or his measured posts answering critisism of his unrepeated routes.
Don't get me wrong, Steve Haston is awesome at climbing and is most likely a real character (hence your crush Liz j?) but he is bitter towards MacLeod big time and it's quite sad.
Of course you Liz j are also a MacLeod hater as evidenced by your previous driv... eh 'posts'
My view: Stevie Haston is going to be surpassed by Dave MacLeod. Stevie bristles at this and it comes across in his posts and articles.
Dave on the other hand could not care less, he is climbing, training hard and teaching lots of people how to get the most out of their climbing. He is sucessful. Read his recent post on the Walk of Life or his measured posts answering critisism of his unrepeated routes.
Don't get me wrong, Steve Haston is awesome at climbing and is most likely a real character (hence your crush Liz j?) but he is bitter towards MacLeod big time and it's quite sad.
Of course you Liz j are also a MacLeod hater as evidenced by your previous driv... eh 'posts'
In reply to VolkMan:
Well said. Liz's extreme support for Haston appears totally unfounded.
> (In reply to liz j) Without having been on it summer or winter? Give me a break you arse licker.
Well said. Liz's extreme support for Haston appears totally unfounded.
In reply to Scarab:
Not read the article in question.
But since Haston qualifies to make armchair comments on routes he hasn't done I'll jump on his bandwagon and comment that this article was a cheap shot and a bit predictable since he'd already 'shot his load' in his previous UKC thread slagging MacLeod.
Does that seem a bit unfair Stevie, or do you not like people passing negative comments?
Not read the article in question.
But since Haston qualifies to make armchair comments on routes he hasn't done I'll jump on his bandwagon and comment that this article was a cheap shot and a bit predictable since he'd already 'shot his load' in his previous UKC thread slagging MacLeod.
Does that seem a bit unfair Stevie, or do you not like people passing negative comments?
In reply to Franco C: Shut it Spraylord,or back to the "Ben" for your apprenticeship.....................
In reply to Scarab:
haston + drytooling....
....what a surprise it erupts into fireworks.
i bet he was thinkin to himself 'thisll get em goin over at the UKC forums' as he wrote it.
haston + drytooling....
....what a surprise it erupts into fireworks.
i bet he was thinkin to himself 'thisll get em goin over at the UKC forums' as he wrote it.
In reply to Scarab:
Obviously Stevie thrives on this topics, furthermore, it's his intention I believe to make really hot comments, that most people think but don't dare to say. But to be honest, I agreed with him on this topic, I can't see the difference on the pics of Dave Mac on Anubis on summer and winter, the rock looks the same in some pictures. And my mates had to turn back from The Hurting because it wasn't plastered enough. I don't understand the ethics. But maybe it just me, being spanish and all, excuse my ignorance...
Obviously Stevie thrives on this topics, furthermore, it's his intention I believe to make really hot comments, that most people think but don't dare to say. But to be honest, I agreed with him on this topic, I can't see the difference on the pics of Dave Mac on Anubis on summer and winter, the rock looks the same in some pictures. And my mates had to turn back from The Hurting because it wasn't plastered enough. I don't understand the ethics. But maybe it just me, being spanish and all, excuse my ignorance...
In reply to Scarab:
I thought of poor taste to see the word DIE on climbers front cover <15 routes to do before you die> or maybe it was just me being sensitive
I thought of poor taste to see the word DIE on climbers front cover <15 routes to do before you die> or maybe it was just me being sensitive
In reply to Scarab:
Climbing bare rock with axes and crampons does much less damage than climbing snow/hoar-covered rock. The climber can see the holds and place the tools more precisely.
If winter climbers are really concerned about doing as little damage to the rock as possible then maybe the ethics need changing.
> "It was climbed bare, ie black
Climbing bare rock with axes and crampons does much less damage than climbing snow/hoar-covered rock. The climber can see the holds and place the tools more precisely.
If winter climbers are really concerned about doing as little damage to the rock as possible then maybe the ethics need changing.
In reply to nb:
Completely right.
> (In reply to Scarab)
> [...]
>
> Climbing bare rock with axes and crampons does much less damage than climbing snow/hoar-covered rock. The climber can see the holds and place the tools more precisely.
>
> If winter climbers are really concerned about doing as little damage to the rock as possible then maybe the ethics need changing.
> [...]
>
> Climbing bare rock with axes and crampons does much less damage than climbing snow/hoar-covered rock. The climber can see the holds and place the tools more precisely.
>
> If winter climbers are really concerned about doing as little damage to the rock as possible then maybe the ethics need changing.
Completely right.
My beef isnt with his opinions on drytooling, but in the way he wrote that article. Its very obvious his done his best to slag off D. Mac.
In reply to Scarab:
I expect that Stevie will be over in Scotland next winter to do a few hard routes in good style to show us all how it should be done.
Oh, mind you he says he hates Scotland so maybe he won't. Anyone know when he last climbed a winter route in Scotland?
I expect that Stevie will be over in Scotland next winter to do a few hard routes in good style to show us all how it should be done.
Oh, mind you he says he hates Scotland so maybe he won't. Anyone know when he last climbed a winter route in Scotland?
In reply to Removed User:
I suspect it was on his guides assessment, 1995ish? Could be wrong though.
I suspect it was on his guides assessment, 1995ish? Could be wrong though.
In reply to liz j:
Utter b*!!*ck$
> (In reply to Scarab)
> I would say, that given Stevie Haston's track record of winter routes and drytooling ascents, he is more than qualified to pass judgement on Anubis
> I would say, that given Stevie Haston's track record of winter routes and drytooling ascents, he is more than qualified to pass judgement on Anubis
Utter b*!!*ck$
In reply to Exile:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2721
Please tell me where he is not qualified to pass judgement?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2721
Please tell me where he is not qualified to pass judgement?
In reply to liz j: By the fact that he has not climbed Anubis.
In reply to Franco C:
That is indeed true, but to discount someone's opinion when they have the experience in the subject matter (ie, mixed/drytooling routes) when they have the track record of Haston is rather rash.
Tell me something, if the article was written by someone other than Haston, would there be the vitriolic outburst on this forum that seems to follow Haston around?
That is indeed true, but to discount someone's opinion when they have the experience in the subject matter (ie, mixed/drytooling routes) when they have the track record of Haston is rather rash.
Tell me something, if the article was written by someone other than Haston, would there be the vitriolic outburst on this forum that seems to follow Haston around?
In reply to liz j:
He does not have 'experience in the subject matter' though, as he was not there and did not do the route. Even if he had done the route previously, he would be still in a poor situation to say whether it was in nick or not.
The picture of Dave M on Anubis shows the buttress to be quite bare and it is perfectly possible that he climbed it in less than ideal conditions, but Haston doesn't know, so he should be silent or go and do the route.
He does not have 'experience in the subject matter' though, as he was not there and did not do the route. Even if he had done the route previously, he would be still in a poor situation to say whether it was in nick or not.
The picture of Dave M on Anubis shows the buttress to be quite bare and it is perfectly possible that he climbed it in less than ideal conditions, but Haston doesn't know, so he should be silent or go and do the route.
In reply to VolkMan:
Then prehaps you should rein in your tongue, you sound very bitter.
Then prehaps you should rein in your tongue, you sound very bitter.
In reply to Scarab: Dave Mac doesn't need anyone on here to fight his battles for him - his achievements speak for themselves and he's shown himself willing to discuss and defend his ethics and decisions on here and elsewhere without ever losing his cool, name calling or coming across as anything but an all round good guy. Stevie Haston has a contrivedly abrasive style which many (myself included) find entertaining and he is in a position, shared by few, to comment with first hand knowledge on the practice and ethics at the cutting edge. It's healthy that he should let fly with these comments if he feels strongly on the matter and equally so when DM comes out with his rebuttal. Maybe this time Stevie has a point, maybe not - let it play itself out in civilised debate and then decide
P
P
In reply to Paul Atkinson:
It's a bit crap when it's in print!
I haven't bought a climbing mag in about 10 years and I'm not about to start again.
Shame is that many who read the article will not be aware of the fact there was an extensive thread about this route on here and that the issue was not cut and dried at all.
In fact the vast majority on here disagreed with Haston's view.
It's a bit crap when it's in print!
I haven't bought a climbing mag in about 10 years and I'm not about to start again.
Shame is that many who read the article will not be aware of the fact there was an extensive thread about this route on here and that the issue was not cut and dried at all.
In fact the vast majority on here disagreed with Haston's view.
In reply to Scarab:
its publishing! mark twight played this game bigger and better in the 90s - hard climber with punkt attitude and reasonable ability to write, a few causticly opinionated articles a year to get the garden variety climbers revved up.
it sells. if not magazines, then sensationalism of the climber cult.
this all harkens of another current thread about trail magazine - just a bit nastier.
really, how ascents a year do these hard routes get? are the effects of tools and monopoints really that dramatic? has anyone actually seen them?
or are we dumbly lumping these hard climbers in with the punters?
time will be the test of these climbers and words.
for now just enjoy it as aging male fanfare using tried-and-true teenage agitation methods.
its publishing! mark twight played this game bigger and better in the 90s - hard climber with punkt attitude and reasonable ability to write, a few causticly opinionated articles a year to get the garden variety climbers revved up.
it sells. if not magazines, then sensationalism of the climber cult.
this all harkens of another current thread about trail magazine - just a bit nastier.
really, how ascents a year do these hard routes get? are the effects of tools and monopoints really that dramatic? has anyone actually seen them?
or are we dumbly lumping these hard climbers in with the punters?
time will be the test of these climbers and words.
for now just enjoy it as aging male fanfare using tried-and-true teenage agitation methods.
In reply to liz j:
I have no problem with people having their own opinions, but one climber 'passing judgement' on another is utter b*!!*ck$
I have no problem with people having their own opinions, but one climber 'passing judgement' on another is utter b*!!*ck$
In reply to Exile:
Maybe so, but it happens all the time at the top end. I've witnessed it many times, and Dave MacLeod is not immune, see his Walk of Life report, titled, "Tendon Therapy" that's quite a put down.
It is very competitive especially at the top end for any money/sponsorship, not all top climbers engage in dissing others off, but many do, especially in the alpine arena.
> (In reply to liz j)
>
> but one climber 'passing judgement' on another is utter b*!!*ck$
>
> but one climber 'passing judgement' on another is utter b*!!*ck$
Maybe so, but it happens all the time at the top end. I've witnessed it many times, and Dave MacLeod is not immune, see his Walk of Life report, titled, "Tendon Therapy" that's quite a put down.
It is very competitive especially at the top end for any money/sponsorship, not all top climbers engage in dissing others off, but many do, especially in the alpine arena.
In reply to liz j:
No one is discounting his opinion on drytooling, but the way he wrote that article, left out some truths and added some drama that he created himself is what rubbing people wrong. If someone only had read Stevies article they would get a very distorting image of the actual case. Its very obvious that he was out there to get him. Its embarrassing and childish. Didnt have much opinion on Haston until I actually read that article, will be very suspicious when reading his articles in the future.
> That is indeed true, but to discount someone's opinion when they have the experience in the subject matter (ie, mixed/drytooling routes) when they have the track record of Haston is rather rash.
No one is discounting his opinion on drytooling, but the way he wrote that article, left out some truths and added some drama that he created himself is what rubbing people wrong. If someone only had read Stevies article they would get a very distorting image of the actual case. Its very obvious that he was out there to get him. Its embarrassing and childish. Didnt have much opinion on Haston until I actually read that article, will be very suspicious when reading his articles in the future.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I know it happens Mick, doesn't mean it's not as I previously described, (in my opinion!)
I'm not jumping to Dave's defence, (I've not read the article,) but he had climbed Walk of Life when he wrote it, I'd pay a lot more credence to Stevie's writings if he'd climbed Anubis.
I know it happens Mick, doesn't mean it's not as I previously described, (in my opinion!)
I'm not jumping to Dave's defence, (I've not read the article,) but he had climbed Walk of Life when he wrote it, I'd pay a lot more credence to Stevie's writings if he'd climbed Anubis.
In reply to Exile:
Perhaps Stevie could take some inspiration from Dave's attitude as well as his climbing - Dave carefully avoided making big pronouncements about Si O'Connor's work until he actually got on the rock in question himself. Of course once he had done that, his word carried real weight. Maybe Stevie should try it.
Perhaps Stevie could take some inspiration from Dave's attitude as well as his climbing - Dave carefully avoided making big pronouncements about Si O'Connor's work until he actually got on the rock in question himself. Of course once he had done that, his word carried real weight. Maybe Stevie should try it.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I don't remember his article seeming like a put down when I read it? He was struggling with a bad elbow at the time I think and looking for slabby stuff to do which didn't stress it which TWOL seewmed to be. From what I recall his whole article was quite praising of James for doing the line and of the quality of the route. If by "put down" you mean that he rubbished the E12 grade (and "harderst trad route in world claim), well yes he did but I suspect that was because as time has now shown the route isn't E12 rather than because he wanted to have a pop at James P.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Jumping to the defense of your new writer, Haston.
The article you mentioned is the complete opposite of Hastons.
The fact remains that Dave M climbed the 'hardest trad route in the world' and weighed in with his opinion.
Is that what Haston did?
Are you and Liz j related?
The article you mentioned is the complete opposite of Hastons.
The fact remains that Dave M climbed the 'hardest trad route in the world' and weighed in with his opinion.
Is that what Haston did?
Are you and Liz j related?
In reply to hexcentric:
In support of your interpretation and by way of comparison didn't Gresham choose to work then do Indian Face because of elbow problems? I'm not sure he wrote about it as Tendon Therapy mind.
In support of your interpretation and by way of comparison didn't Gresham choose to work then do Indian Face because of elbow problems? I'm not sure he wrote about it as Tendon Therapy mind.
In reply to liz j:
Because he has never been on the route in summer or winter. Non of us are qualified to pass judgement except Dave Macleod. He climb it knowing the conditions and has done plenty of other scottish climbing to have an idea of what is and isnt acceptable.
> (In reply to Exile)
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2721
> Please tell me where he is not qualified to pass judgement?
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2721
> Please tell me where he is not qualified to pass judgement?
Because he has never been on the route in summer or winter. Non of us are qualified to pass judgement except Dave Macleod. He climb it knowing the conditions and has done plenty of other scottish climbing to have an idea of what is and isnt acceptable.
In reply to VolkMan:
How very bizarre?
I offer no defence for what Stevie Haston writes or his opinion.
I respect both Stevie and Dave MacLeod equally for their contributions to climbing and climbing writing and culture.
It is quite clear that to offer an opinion on a route, your opinion has more value if you have done the route.
But top climbers taking potshots at each other is as old as the hills, most of them do it.
Haston is not alone in that I can assure you.
You wouldn't believe some of the shit I have been privy too, recently too. Or maybe you would?
Public perception and reality are far apart.
One thing I do give credit to both Haston and MacLeod is that they are both forthright, transparent and honest in their views and opinions, which can't be said for all top climbers some of whom, to paraphrase someone, 'are too busy airbrushing their images to get much climbing done'.
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Jumping to the defense of your new writer, Haston.
How very bizarre?
I offer no defence for what Stevie Haston writes or his opinion.
I respect both Stevie and Dave MacLeod equally for their contributions to climbing and climbing writing and culture.
It is quite clear that to offer an opinion on a route, your opinion has more value if you have done the route.
But top climbers taking potshots at each other is as old as the hills, most of them do it.
Haston is not alone in that I can assure you.
You wouldn't believe some of the shit I have been privy too, recently too. Or maybe you would?
Public perception and reality are far apart.
One thing I do give credit to both Haston and MacLeod is that they are both forthright, transparent and honest in their views and opinions, which can't be said for all top climbers some of whom, to paraphrase someone, 'are too busy airbrushing their images to get much climbing done'.
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
In reply to Scarab: Well posted Mr Ryan,
DM has achieved some hard ascents, but like all who operate at the top has his flaws. He claimed a Winter ascent of Against all odds while his partner said it wasn't. He claims an ascent of Unicorn, when he misses the last (crux)pitch out by retreating(failure), and its never grade V111.Then the photo's of Anubis are clearly not in Winter Condition. If these photo's were on any other route or with any other climber then the ascent would be ignored.When ethical boundaries are streched we only cheat ourselves and the sport is lessened.If a few snow flakes on edges and a dribble of ice make it winter , then I am glad to be out of it, but you youngsters can do far better...
DM I am sure is a nice guy,remember he approaches climbing from a different perspective to most.
DM has achieved some hard ascents, but like all who operate at the top has his flaws. He claimed a Winter ascent of Against all odds while his partner said it wasn't. He claims an ascent of Unicorn, when he misses the last (crux)pitch out by retreating(failure), and its never grade V111.Then the photo's of Anubis are clearly not in Winter Condition. If these photo's were on any other route or with any other climber then the ascent would be ignored.When ethical boundaries are streched we only cheat ourselves and the sport is lessened.If a few snow flakes on edges and a dribble of ice make it winter , then I am glad to be out of it, but you youngsters can do far better...
DM I am sure is a nice guy,remember he approaches climbing from a different perspective to most.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Bloddy hell! In terms of dishing the dirt on someone;
Your example definitely sits in the catagory "scrapping the bottom of the barrel"
Bloddy hell! In terms of dishing the dirt on someone;
> and Dave MacLeod is not immune, see his Walk of Life report, titled, "Tendon Therapy" that's quite a put down.
Your example definitely sits in the catagory "scrapping the bottom of the barrel"
In reply to MattDTC:
No it isn't. And it isn't dirt, it's funny, and was picked up by many people, not just me.
The subtext was... I can do this climb, cheekily given the grade of E12, even with bad tendons.
Many people are just too sensitive about things these days.... it's freaking climbing we are talking about, not finding a cure for AIDS or ending world starvation.
Get over yourself
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Bloddy hell! In terms of dishing the dirt on someone;
>
> [...]
>
> Your example definitely sits in the catagory "scrapping the bottom of the barrel"
>
> Bloddy hell! In terms of dishing the dirt on someone;
>
> [...]
>
> Your example definitely sits in the catagory "scrapping the bottom of the barrel"
No it isn't. And it isn't dirt, it's funny, and was picked up by many people, not just me.
The subtext was... I can do this climb, cheekily given the grade of E12, even with bad tendons.
Many people are just too sensitive about things these days.... it's freaking climbing we are talking about, not finding a cure for AIDS or ending world starvation.
Get over yourself
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Oh yes... scrapping the bottom of the barrel with your big stirring spoon hehe
Oh yes... scrapping the bottom of the barrel with your big stirring spoon hehe
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
That is not a subtext. That is what happened! He did the route cheekily given the grade of E12 with bad tendons in a weekend or so. Considering that was the case, I thought he was very nice about the route and James in the article he wrote.
>
> The subtext was... I can do this climb, cheekily given the grade of E12, even with bad tendons.
> The subtext was... I can do this climb, cheekily given the grade of E12, even with bad tendons.
That is not a subtext. That is what happened! He did the route cheekily given the grade of E12 with bad tendons in a weekend or so. Considering that was the case, I thought he was very nice about the route and James in the article he wrote.
In reply to hexcentric:
Yes he was, very nice indeed.
Pete Livesey is raihlhao (rolling around in heaven laughing his ass off) and would never use the word, inappropriate.
Yes he was, very nice indeed.
Pete Livesey is raihlhao (rolling around in heaven laughing his ass off) and would never use the word, inappropriate.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Bizarre? I think not.
Your example was pish. End of.
I get your point about top climbers digging into each other but your example was terrible.
Scrape a little harder and come up with a real dig by Macleod. With your 'insider' knowledge it should be very easy. If it exists.
Your example was pish. End of.
I get your point about top climbers digging into each other but your example was terrible.
Scrape a little harder and come up with a real dig by Macleod. With your 'insider' knowledge it should be very easy. If it exists.
In reply to Scarab:
Dave Macleod is doing plenty new hard routes in many disciplines of climbing right now, he's getting loads of publicity and this helps him earn a living. It's right that his achievements are tested and confirmed, Stevie Haston has done this, Dave Macleod has answered his criticism, Stevie has not accepted this. He's entitled to his opinions
Stevie gets loads of publicity for his abrasive writing, not so much for his climbing any more, I'm sure the lime light is addictive, maybe I'd hang on to it any way I could as well.
Dave Macleod is doing plenty new hard routes in many disciplines of climbing right now, he's getting loads of publicity and this helps him earn a living. It's right that his achievements are tested and confirmed, Stevie Haston has done this, Dave Macleod has answered his criticism, Stevie has not accepted this. He's entitled to his opinions
Stevie gets loads of publicity for his abrasive writing, not so much for his climbing any more, I'm sure the lime light is addictive, maybe I'd hang on to it any way I could as well.
In reply to Scarab: Well the thing is that looking up a winter climb can often be deceptive as to the winter nature or not of the route, we only have Dave Mac's words and a picture taken looking up the route to go on that it was or wasn't in nick, so normally in climbing you'd believe the climber who was there unless their name was whatever that conner bloke was. I think Tom Patey wrote about photographing down the route for maximum whiteness in the 60s some time so the whole thing isn't new.
In reply to Scarab:
I take Dave at his word.
I think it's funny that Stevie accuses top level climbers of headline grabbing grades for maximum publicity, when he writes aggressive pieces with teenage humor for maximum publicity.
I take Dave at his word.
I think it's funny that Stevie accuses top level climbers of headline grabbing grades for maximum publicity, when he writes aggressive pieces with teenage humor for maximum publicity.
In reply to Graeme Ettle:
IIRC the discussion was about that at the time. The overhanging bit wasn't hoard but DM said that ice in the cracks actually made tool placements possible, then once through the overhangs, the upper section was blootered with hoar and snow.
What are you up to now Graeme? For a long time that Cubby pic of you on Sterling Bridge was set as my PC wall paper. I convinced myself staring at it that it was doable so went to try the route on I think it was the first UKC winter meet. I fell off. You cannae win 'em all!
> If a few snow flakes on edges and a dribble of ice make it winter ,
IIRC the discussion was about that at the time. The overhanging bit wasn't hoard but DM said that ice in the cracks actually made tool placements possible, then once through the overhangs, the upper section was blootered with hoar and snow.
> then I am glad to be out of it,
What are you up to now Graeme? For a long time that Cubby pic of you on Sterling Bridge was set as my PC wall paper. I convinced myself staring at it that it was doable so went to try the route on I think it was the first UKC winter meet. I fell off. You cannae win 'em all!
In reply to robmack:
Don't be silly. Whatever Stevie wrote, he and Steve McClure are clearly the two strong Brit rock climbers currently. His climbing speaks for itself regardless whether you agree with his opinions or not (I probably don't on this issue).
> Stevie gets loads of publicity for his abrasive writing, not so much for his climbing any more,
Don't be silly. Whatever Stevie wrote, he and Steve McClure are clearly the two strong Brit rock climbers currently. His climbing speaks for itself regardless whether you agree with his opinions or not (I probably don't on this issue).
In reply to Scarab: all i'm saying is professional climbers should let their climbing do the talking. Stevie's journalism is more prominent at the moment.
In reply to TobyA:
Sorry to be awkward but I would say (at least) three strong British climbers. Tom Bolger being the third with 3 9a's already in 2010.
>
> Don't be silly. Whatever Stevie wrote, he and Steve McClure are clearly the two strong Brit rock climbers currently. His climbing speaks for itself regardless whether you agree with his opinions or not (I probably don't on this issue).
> Don't be silly. Whatever Stevie wrote, he and Steve McClure are clearly the two strong Brit rock climbers currently. His climbing speaks for itself regardless whether you agree with his opinions or not (I probably don't on this issue).
Sorry to be awkward but I would say (at least) three strong British climbers. Tom Bolger being the third with 3 9a's already in 2010.
In reply to chris_j_s: Does Macleod not get to join the party? He's ticked 9a?
In reply to chris_j_s: Good point. I was desperately wracking my brains for Brits who have done 9a, and was thinking of Gaskins and Carson, which is why I went for "currently" but of course forgot Bolger. Sorry Tom! You are clearly making far too little fuss about your considerable achievements. Get into a slanging match with someone for maximum name recognition!
I guess Dunne is another possible Brit 9a-er. Can the hard sports climbers tell me why The Big Bang hasn't been repeated in over a decade?*
*"because it's bloody hard" is not useful enough to be a good answer unless Ste Mc or B. Moon give it!
I guess Dunne is another possible Brit 9a-er. Can the hard sports climbers tell me why The Big Bang hasn't been repeated in over a decade?*
*"because it's bloody hard" is not useful enough to be a good answer unless Ste Mc or B. Moon give it!
In reply to TobyA:
I'm not a hard sport climber but.....Nasty moves I heard from one climber (a hard sport climber), nails but not pleasant.
> (In reply to chris_j_s)
> Can the hard sports climbers tell me why The Big Bang hasn't been repeated in over a decade?*
I'm not a hard sport climber but.....Nasty moves I heard from one climber (a hard sport climber), nails but not pleasant.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I'm enjoying reading this thread. I've had a few points about D. macleod having climbed some routes. I read on Dave's Blog that he's been climbing on some Scottish Islands and bolting crags there. I tried to email him through his blog to see if it is true. It's seems to me as Dave macleod has worked hard at becomming one of Scotlands best but why is he romping about with his drill, climbing and claiming winter routes which are not in acceptable condition. Could write more but I'm sure he's a nice guy. A lot of younger climbers look up to him. Slowly Scotland is getting more bolted and when will dry-tooling become the norm?
In reply to Pete Main:
Can you post a link to his blog on the bolting you refer to, I must have missed that one. Cheers.
Can you post a link to his blog on the bolting you refer to, I must have missed that one. Cheers.
In reply to Removed User:
The only reason I didn't mention him is that I thought Toby was referring to climbers with current form on ~9a climbs.
Dave did his only 9a in 2007 and hasn't done another since (that I'm aware of), although I do hear noises that he has a 9a/9a+ project in Scotland. Maybe he'll be trying some of the 9a's in Yorks/Peak/Wales this year as he nomally seems to try other routes around the grade of his projects.
> (In reply to chris_j_s) Does Macleod not get to join the party? He's ticked 9a?
The only reason I didn't mention him is that I thought Toby was referring to climbers with current form on ~9a climbs.
Dave did his only 9a in 2007 and hasn't done another since (that I'm aware of), although I do hear noises that he has a 9a/9a+ project in Scotland. Maybe he'll be trying some of the 9a's in Yorks/Peak/Wales this year as he nomally seems to try other routes around the grade of his projects.
I can't sympathise with the view that folk shouldn't question an ascent that they don't believe to be in condition. Dave says that much of the pitch was in essence proper winter climbing. That could well be the case, but the roof was black. As it turned out the buttress didn't hoar up again this year so if he had waited he wouldn't have got it done. That would have been very frustrating I'm sure but was climbing it in 'hybrid condition' worth it? Maybe for Dave but as a laudable example of Scotland's hardest winter route? It's obviously an extremely important ascent but perhaps not the masterpiece it could have been.
Oh and to suggest that folk need to climb it to be able to comment on conditions is just nonsensical!
Oh and to suggest that folk need to climb it to be able to comment on conditions is just nonsensical!
In reply to catt:Arisaig is I believe is on an Island off the West coast. Read his blog. If you have a look at page two on Rock talk thread; heading "where to bolt climb in Scotland". Then go to Daves previous blogs and he described bolting some project. It's hard to describe where this bolting is but I understand it to be at Arisaig.
Thanks Pete
Thanks Pete
In reply to Pete Main:
> Arisaig is I believe is on an Island off the West coast.
A fairly large island, off the West coast of mainland Europe. In reply to Pete Main:
Your geography is a bit duff.
> (In reply to catt)Arisaig is I believe is on an Island off the West coast.
Your geography is a bit duff.
In reply to tony: Typical moronic answer you get from some UKC poster. If my geography is off then feel free to correct me. Instead you say my Geography is a bit duff. So help me out don't be a prat.
We have already seen a line of bolts around Ossians Cave in Glencoe which I've been lead to beleive was to be a winter climb.
We have already seen a line of bolts around Ossians Cave in Glencoe which I've been lead to beleive was to be a winter climb.
In reply to Pete Main: You could have just googled it Pete. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaig it would have been quicker than moaning at Tony.
In reply to Pete Main:
Arisaig isn't on an island off the West Coast. Anyone who knows the Highlands knows it's a cute wee village on the West Coast, on the road to Mallaig. You can catch a ferry across to Rum and Eigg from there.
If you'd really tried, you probably could have found this out for yourself. The fact remains that your geography is a bit duff.
Arisaig isn't on an island off the West Coast. Anyone who knows the Highlands knows it's a cute wee village on the West Coast, on the road to Mallaig. You can catch a ferry across to Rum and Eigg from there.
If you'd really tried, you probably could have found this out for yourself. The fact remains that your geography is a bit duff.
In reply to Scarab: did Dave bolt the line at ossians cave? I thought he was bouldering at Arisaig? Regardless, the crag at Arisaig may well be fair game for bolting
In reply to robmack: Fairly sure that his traverse project, "At eternity's Gate" was the only thing at Arisaig, repeatedly refered to it with sport grades, but a traverse boulder problem none the less... http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/search/label/Arisaig%20cave
In reply to Pete Main: See http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=407723#x5834876
Regarding the Ossian's Cave Bolts...
Regarding the Ossian's Cave Bolts...
In reply to Pete Main:
Not sure what you are referring to re. bolting. I am not bolting any island crags. My drill has sat in my loft for nearly three years. But when I do romp about with my drill, it's because I'm a sport climber (in between being a trad climber). Opening new sport routes is a good thing to do, and I hope I can open many more in Scotland and that new Scottish sport crags are bolted quickly rather than slowly. I'd really appreciate if you showed me the respect of asking me about rumours before spreading them.
Dry tooling is already the norm, on the dry tooling crags.
To repeat, I'm totally happy that Anubis was in acceptable winter condition. Someone above was correct that it was not in ideal conditions, but climbing in less than ideal conditions is quite important for getting climbs done in Scotland. If people think thats wrong, no problem, I don't mind.
Graeme - Thanks for taking the time to look for my flaws. There are many as you say. I was unaware that the top pitch of Unicorn was the crux. I didn't take the guidebook with me to the crag as I was heading for a different, specific route and just decided to go up Unicorn as an afterthought. I was under the impression most people abseiled from a ledge with loose blocks before the short final pitch and thats what we did. If I'd known we'd be missing out on another good pitch, I'd have done it, but too bad... On Against All Odds I didn't do anything other than climb it. I didn't claim anything. I described exactly it's condition, and that was it.
> I read on Dave's Blog that he's been climbing on some Scottish Islands and bolting crags there. I tried to email him through his blog to see if it is true. It's seems to me as Dave macleod has worked hard at becomming one of Scotlands best but why is he romping about with his drill, climbing and claiming winter routes which are not in acceptable condition. Could write more but I'm sure he's a nice guy. A lot of younger climbers look up to him. Slowly Scotland is getting more bolted and when will dry-tooling become the norm?
Not sure what you are referring to re. bolting. I am not bolting any island crags. My drill has sat in my loft for nearly three years. But when I do romp about with my drill, it's because I'm a sport climber (in between being a trad climber). Opening new sport routes is a good thing to do, and I hope I can open many more in Scotland and that new Scottish sport crags are bolted quickly rather than slowly. I'd really appreciate if you showed me the respect of asking me about rumours before spreading them.
Dry tooling is already the norm, on the dry tooling crags.
To repeat, I'm totally happy that Anubis was in acceptable winter condition. Someone above was correct that it was not in ideal conditions, but climbing in less than ideal conditions is quite important for getting climbs done in Scotland. If people think thats wrong, no problem, I don't mind.
Graeme - Thanks for taking the time to look for my flaws. There are many as you say. I was unaware that the top pitch of Unicorn was the crux. I didn't take the guidebook with me to the crag as I was heading for a different, specific route and just decided to go up Unicorn as an afterthought. I was under the impression most people abseiled from a ledge with loose blocks before the short final pitch and thats what we did. If I'd known we'd be missing out on another good pitch, I'd have done it, but too bad... On Against All Odds I didn't do anything other than climb it. I didn't claim anything. I described exactly it's condition, and that was it.
In reply to Pete Main:
I think the responsibility is yours to check your facts before spreading rumours that someone is bolting island crags.
There has been a sport crag in Arisaig (which is on the Sottish mainland) for a few years. But I have never been there. In anticipation of more rumours, I have not bolted Ossian's Cave either.
> (In reply to tony) Typical moronic answer you get from some UKC poster. If my geography is off then feel free to correct me. Instead you say my Geography is a bit duff. So help me out don't be a prat.
>
>
I think the responsibility is yours to check your facts before spreading rumours that someone is bolting island crags.
There has been a sport crag in Arisaig (which is on the Sottish mainland) for a few years. But I have never been there. In anticipation of more rumours, I have not bolted Ossian's Cave either.
In reply to Dave MacLeod:
Ahhh, no fun! You've probably stopped at least another 10 posts of sly inuendo and ill-informed speculation now Dave! That's a whole afternoon's entertainment for someone.
I don't know... some people coming on here with their "facts" and "first hand knowledge". What is the interweb coming to?
> In anticipation of more rumours, I have not bolted Ossian's Cave either.
Ahhh, no fun! You've probably stopped at least another 10 posts of sly inuendo and ill-informed speculation now Dave! That's a whole afternoon's entertainment for someone.
I don't know... some people coming on here with their "facts" and "first hand knowledge". What is the interweb coming to?
In reply to TobyA:
Next you'll be telling us it's full of facts :-p
> What is the interweb coming to?
Next you'll be telling us it's full of facts :-p
In reply to Dave MacLeod:
So Pete don't you think you owe Dave an apology then?
> (In reply to Pete Main)
I'd really appreciate if you showed me the respect of asking me about rumours before spreading them.So Pete don't you think you owe Dave an apology then?
In reply to Dave MacLeod:Thanks for your quick reply and I must say I'm sorry. I did try to email you through your blog. If you maybe explained in your blog better then some of us may not jump to conclusions. I never said you bolted Ossians cave. Your a great climber and your dedication to the sport is inspiring. If you re-read your blogs you,ll understand what I mean when I think that your running around with a bolt gun. Remember watching a film about your old house in Fort William and one of the first scenes was of your bolt gun on charge in your bed room. Your one of Scotlands best climbers and good for you I just don't feel where your comming from.
Anyway good luck.
Pete
Anyway good luck.
Pete
In reply to Pete Main:
Bolting isn't illegal you know. Some cliffs are better bolted, and it's the only way you will get routes on them.
> (In reply to Dave MacLeod)Thanks for your quick reply and I must say I'm sorry. I did try to email you through your blog. If you maybe explained in your blog better then some of us may not jump to conclusions. I never said you bolted Ossians cave. Your a great climber and your dedication to the sport is inspiring. If you re-read your blogs you,ll understand what I mean when I think that your running around with a bolt gun. Remember watching a film about your old house in Fort William and one of the first scenes was of your bolt gun on charge in your bed room. Your one of Scotlands best climbers and good for you I just don't feel where your comming from.
> Anyway good luck.
> Pete
> Anyway good luck.
> Pete
Bolting isn't illegal you know. Some cliffs are better bolted, and it's the only way you will get routes on them.
In reply to Pete Main: As I said, sometimes I AM running around with a bolt gun, being a sport climber. And will be again. However, I have never said I anything about having bolted island crags, or Arisaig, so jumping to that conclusion was going too far. I'm thinking the film you mean must be To Hell and Back, a film about a trad route I did. My drill was probably on charge for bolting Stolen (8b) on Steall crag at that time, which is now reckoned to be a bit of a classic and one of my best new routes I think.
In reply to Dave MacLeod: Hey Dave, did you ever get chance to look at that crag face I sent you the picture of a year or so ago? Wondered if you may have taken a diversion to see it on your way to Orkney.
In reply to Pete Main:
Dave wouldn't bolt a mountain crag:
- Dave MacLeod ? on - 16 Jun 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:
.......
Fair enough, on the basis this view, applied to the current argument I think you have won the argument and the majority view that there should be no bolts in the Scottish mountains must prevail. I accept this majority view and will never bolt a Scottish mountain crag. However I should make two additional statements:
......
......
Thanks for the argument, see you on the hill...
dave
> (In reply to Dave MacLeod)Thanks for your quick reply and I must say I'm sorry. I did try to email you through your blog. If you maybe explained in your blog better then some of us may not jump to conclusions. I never said you bolted Ossians cave.
Dave wouldn't bolt a mountain crag:
- Dave MacLeod ? on - 16 Jun 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:
.......
Fair enough, on the basis this view, applied to the current argument I think you have won the argument and the majority view that there should be no bolts in the Scottish mountains must prevail. I accept this majority view and will never bolt a Scottish mountain crag. However I should make two additional statements:
......
......
Thanks for the argument, see you on the hill...
dave
In reply to Dave MacLeod:
Two things I've just noticed in the above blog. Steall crag is on an island it's called The British Isles and although Steall crag may not be a mountain cliff per-say but it sur is in a nice piece of mountainous country. Every year more cliffs get bolted routes that look to have no ice or hoar getting high winter grades. What next! Sorry Dave but my partner and I climbed Eagle ridge last year and there was more snow on that then on Anubis yet we climbed it boots no axes and we never dared claim a winter accent.
Anyway dry-tool, bolt, solo, lead, second whatever please be careful a new generation of climbers are watching and copying you or trying to. I'd love to debate more but i'm away to do some mono pocket pull-ups while eating a bacon buttie.
> (In reply to Pete Main) As I said, sometimes I AM running around with a bolt gun, being a sport climber. And will be again. However, I have never said I anything about having bolted island crags, or Arisaig, so jumping to that conclusion was going too far. I'm thinking the film you mean must be To Hell and Back, a film about a trad route I did. My drill was probably on charge for bolting Stolen (8b) on Steall crag at that time, which is now reckoned to be a bit of a classic and one of my best new routes I think.
Two things I've just noticed in the above blog. Steall crag is on an island it's called The British Isles and although Steall crag may not be a mountain cliff per-say but it sur is in a nice piece of mountainous country. Every year more cliffs get bolted routes that look to have no ice or hoar getting high winter grades. What next! Sorry Dave but my partner and I climbed Eagle ridge last year and there was more snow on that then on Anubis yet we climbed it boots no axes and we never dared claim a winter accent.
Anyway dry-tool, bolt, solo, lead, second whatever please be careful a new generation of climbers are watching and copying you or trying to. I'd love to debate more but i'm away to do some mono pocket pull-ups while eating a bacon buttie.
In reply to Scarab: are there that many sport mixed routes in Scotland?
In reply to Dave MacLeod:That is exactly my point with regards "Against all odds", you actually climbed it out of nick.
And while I am on a little soapbox, how can you claim an onsight ascent of The Tempest on your second day. Correct me if I am so out of touch, but does on sight mean as it says, or can you have most of the knowledge already. If the latter is now accepted then surely the terminology is wrong.Either way, I am sure you enjoyed the climbing.Best carry more gear next time. Felicitations from the Swiss Alps.
And while I am on a little soapbox, how can you claim an onsight ascent of The Tempest on your second day. Correct me if I am so out of touch, but does on sight mean as it says, or can you have most of the knowledge already. If the latter is now accepted then surely the terminology is wrong.Either way, I am sure you enjoyed the climbing.Best carry more gear next time. Felicitations from the Swiss Alps.
In reply to TobyA: Living in the Swiss Alps,family, sunshine and learning about ice.
In reply to Pete Main:
Pete, Steall has nothing to do with winter climbing, and as far as I can remember no bolts have been placed in the UK for winter climbing since -what?- the 70s except the one Udlaidh route that was subsequently chopped.
You're not really making much sense.
> Steall crag may not be a mountain cliff per-say but it sur is in a nice piece of mountainous country. Every year more cliffs get bolted routes that look to have no ice or hoar getting high winter grades. What next!
Pete, Steall has nothing to do with winter climbing, and as far as I can remember no bolts have been placed in the UK for winter climbing since -what?- the 70s except the one Udlaidh route that was subsequently chopped.
You're not really making much sense.
In reply to Graeme Ettle: Nice one. Enjoy the ice and sunshine!
In reply to Scarab: pete, it would appear that you are the one who shouldn't be influencing any newbies with all these false allegations! You question Dave's honesty when you are perpetuating myths about his ethics!
In reply to TobyA:I was making a point that had been raised earlier or are you not following the thread. I'm always take with a pinch of salt anyone who post with no Profile. Think you better search utube.
Goodnight
Goodnight
In reply to scooott:
BullS**T leave then alone if they can't be climbed.
> (In reply to Pete Main)
> [...]
>
> Bolting isn't illegal you know. Some cliffs are better bolted, and it's the only way you will get routes on them.
> [...]
>
> Bolting isn't illegal you know. Some cliffs are better bolted, and it's the only way you will get routes on them.
BullS**T leave then alone if they can't be climbed.
In reply to Pete Main: I'm trying to follow the thread and understand what you have written but I'm now very confused. What has youtube got to do with anything? And what did you mean "Every year more cliffs get bolted routes that look to have no ice or hoar getting high winter grades". What cliffs? What routes?
Steall is a summer cliff. The bolted routes are sports routes. It has nothing to do with winter climbing.
Steall is a summer cliff. The bolted routes are sports routes. It has nothing to do with winter climbing.
In reply to Scarab: do you think people with normal jobs have to defend themselves this much...?
poor dave!
re. the article,
in this case it is hastons job to write articles that sell magazines, and get people talking. let him have his rants, seems that you all read it, and it certainly got people talking, so I guess it did its job.
poor dave!
re. the article,
in this case it is hastons job to write articles that sell magazines, and get people talking. let him have his rants, seems that you all read it, and it certainly got people talking, so I guess it did its job.
In reply to Pete Main: I bolted two local crags recently, one of them just has lower offs. I bet nobody knows about it and apart from my local pals nobody will for a long while.
Why?
The crags are both devoid of cracks, have bad slopey landings and have terrible top outs. However, they are very close by and the routes are great with a lot of variety. The bolts and my time ain't cheap and I would be very unhappy for them to be removed by some utter idiot who shares P.Mains psychosis.
Live and let live. Climb and be happy.
Why?
The crags are both devoid of cracks, have bad slopey landings and have terrible top outs. However, they are very close by and the routes are great with a lot of variety. The bolts and my time ain't cheap and I would be very unhappy for them to be removed by some utter idiot who shares P.Mains psychosis.
Live and let live. Climb and be happy.
In reply to robmack: There will be soon, times are changing.
In reply to Graeme Ettle:
I climbed it from the bottom to the top without falling off or weighting the rope. If that's not onsight, fair enough. Call it what you want. As far a I'm aware down-climbing is allowed.
> (In reply to Dave MacLeod)That is exactly my point with regards "Against all odds", you actually climbed it out of nick.
> And while I am on a little soapbox, how can you claim an onsight ascent of The Tempest on your second day. Correct me if I am so out of touch, but does on sight mean as it says, or can you have most of the knowledge already. If the latter is now accepted then surely the terminology is wrong.Either way, I am sure you enjoyed the climbing.Best carry more gear next time. Felicitations from the Swiss Alps
> And while I am on a little soapbox, how can you claim an onsight ascent of The Tempest on your second day. Correct me if I am so out of touch, but does on sight mean as it says, or can you have most of the knowledge already. If the latter is now accepted then surely the terminology is wrong.Either way, I am sure you enjoyed the climbing.Best carry more gear next time. Felicitations from the Swiss Alps
I climbed it from the bottom to the top without falling off or weighting the rope. If that's not onsight, fair enough. Call it what you want. As far a I'm aware down-climbing is allowed.
In reply to Scarab: i for one welcome more sport venues, my last two summers were spent on trad, this year i'm clipping bolts. Everyone knows the rules and as long as they're adhered to i welcome more sport!
In reply to Scarab: regarding what's fair game to bolt, if you need a refresher check the mcofs website
In reply to robmack: The MCofS has guidelines, not rules.
And they are pretty terrible guidelines at that. Fortunately there are many who regard the MCofS as irrelevant.
And they are pretty terrible guidelines at that. Fortunately there are many who regard the MCofS as irrelevant.
In reply to Scarab:
are there more that find the MCofS irrelevant than relevant? I've not got an opinion so it's a genuine question. I think your views are of the minority re bolting, as most people are happy with considerate bolting. It's a vocal minority who are strictly anti bolts or have a bolt anything mentality.
are there more that find the MCofS irrelevant than relevant? I've not got an opinion so it's a genuine question. I think your views are of the minority re bolting, as most people are happy with considerate bolting. It's a vocal minority who are strictly anti bolts or have a bolt anything mentality.
In reply to Pete Main:
So even when your accusations have been proven unfounded, you're still trying to say that it's Dave's fault for writing a misleading blog? It's funny - I read Dave's blog too and have never once jumped to the conclusions that you appear to. Although I suspect that unless Dave started each blog post with the words "Pete - I've not bolted anything today", you'd still be accusing him of riddling the mountains/islands with bolts, and still not have the decency to post a genuine apology when you're proven wrong.
> (In reply to Dave MacLeod)...If you maybe explained in your blog better then some of us may not jump to conclusions....If you re-read your blogs you,ll understand what I mean when I think that your running around with a bolt gun.
So even when your accusations have been proven unfounded, you're still trying to say that it's Dave's fault for writing a misleading blog? It's funny - I read Dave's blog too and have never once jumped to the conclusions that you appear to. Although I suspect that unless Dave started each blog post with the words "Pete - I've not bolted anything today", you'd still be accusing him of riddling the mountains/islands with bolts, and still not have the decency to post a genuine apology when you're proven wrong.
In reply to robmack:
All the MCofS, or the BMC can do is offer guidelines and recommend good practice as regards activities such as dry tooling or bolting.
They can't enforce anything. Climbers decide what they want to do out at the crag.
> (In reply to Scarab)
>
> are there more that find the MCofS irrelevant than relevant?
>
> are there more that find the MCofS irrelevant than relevant?
All the MCofS, or the BMC can do is offer guidelines and recommend good practice as regards activities such as dry tooling or bolting.
They can't enforce anything. Climbers decide what they want to do out at the crag.
In reply to Scarab: thanks for the clarification
In reply to Graeme Ettle:
Regarding Dave's ascent of The Tempest, what fresh ground on that route was climbed with prior knowledge?
If a climber downclimbs 2 metres to a ledge that they were just on so as to compose themselves/sort out footwork/rearrange gear/etc, and then proceeds to continue up the route to the top, would that downclimb have blown the on sight? I wouldn't think so.
If a climber downclimbs 20 metres or 200 metres, again in the same style (no weighting of the rope etc), then proceeds up the route to the top, is that not the same?
In all of those cases, the climber has no more knowledge of virgin ground than they did when they first arrived at the base of the route.
Out of interest, on Dave's blog, he's quite clear about abbing off Unicorn after he "climbed the third pitch to the big ledges". For a Grade XII (?) leader, I don't think an ascent of Unicorn is going to be added to his CV in the same way that you may rush to add it to yours. After all, for a Grade VIII leader, that's equivalent to missing out a pitch on a Grade IV
Regarding Dave's ascent of The Tempest, what fresh ground on that route was climbed with prior knowledge?
If a climber downclimbs 2 metres to a ledge that they were just on so as to compose themselves/sort out footwork/rearrange gear/etc, and then proceeds to continue up the route to the top, would that downclimb have blown the on sight? I wouldn't think so.
If a climber downclimbs 20 metres or 200 metres, again in the same style (no weighting of the rope etc), then proceeds up the route to the top, is that not the same?
In all of those cases, the climber has no more knowledge of virgin ground than they did when they first arrived at the base of the route.
Out of interest, on Dave's blog, he's quite clear about abbing off Unicorn after he "climbed the third pitch to the big ledges". For a Grade XII (?) leader, I don't think an ascent of Unicorn is going to be added to his CV in the same way that you may rush to add it to yours. After all, for a Grade VIII leader, that's equivalent to missing out a pitch on a Grade IV
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