/ THE LOWDOWN: Nalle responds

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Björn Pohl - UKC - on 31 Mar 2010
First of all I never started this conversation in the first place. It just escalated from a few people asking questions on my blog. In my opinion, internet is not the proper forum for this type of conversation.Chris's point of view is very understandable and although I am against red-tagging, I...

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Saucisson #3 (nivlac) on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I think both perspectives are fair. Unfortunately, no easy solution and I can understand Nalle's frustration at watching some buddies climb when he's been asked not too.

Nalle, perhaps you'll be able to try it in the near future (after the FA or after it's made an open project) and I hope there's no lingering bitterness about it to taint your experience.

You and Sharma both seem like reasonable people.
pav on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Standing of the bottom of the route watching not only Chris but also 2 of his friends (Dave and Dani) try it?? This sounds really bad. All the previous comments justifying Chris's approach (Chris trying to avoid hold breakage by other climbers etc) are kind of invalidated. It must have felt horrible for Nalle, "you're not part of our little circle, so please go away".. Elitist and simply stupid was Chris?s approach, this is my take. If he red-tagged it for everyone, it would be different. If Chris, Dave and Dani tried the project while Nalle wasn't around, it would be different. But like this, it was just not cool..
indigo on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
what a terrible attitude these days to promote climbs/boulders before they are even done (meskalito, the game, frfm, ...). nalle, take it as a compliment that you were not allowed to try it. they are afraid of your ninja skills :-)
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle, just to know: if Adam Ondra had a trip to that piece of rock where you imagined Ninja Skills... If Ondra after some try on it would have FA it, how would you react? "Nice Job Adam, I'm happy for you"?. Sharma has shown us to be human, while we who climb on sunday and work the rest of the week are dvided between who sees Chris as the prophet, and who sees Sharma as an Antichrist. Now be human you too, and show us that both of you can act with others the same way you wish others to act with you, not playing with words and trying to look easy and smooth while you just wait to be claimed the winner of this media contest.
Mr.kalled on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I Totally agree with Indigo.
It's very bad attitude to promote unclimbed lines, as it a boulder or a route
Claudio on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I agree when Nalle says that internet is not the best forum for this discussion. To balance whether the internet is doing more good things or more bad things to climbing, that´s another long topic.

Was Action Directe a closed (or "in between buddies") project? Hopefully this debate might come up with one good thing: to change BigUp´s marketing strategy of putting poor Chris up on a pedestal.
Nalle Hukkataival on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
@anonymous:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I don't think there are any winners here and I think I'm acting very respectfully towards Chris.

You say: "act with others the same way you wish others to act with you"

If this was the case, there wouldn't be an issue, because I believe all projects should be open. However, I'm not forcing my views on anyone and respected Chris's way.
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
What's weird, what's sick Nalle, is that if you tried and FA the route, you probably would ahve gotten a big part of climbing world against you. This is th way things work when the game we play everyday is to pt people on and off the pedestal of our frustration. Good luck to you and to Chris. (the anonymous who talked about acting with others... Andrea)
spencer on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle, sounds like you got a great head on your shoulders. opinionated yet respectful. that speaks huge as this should be how the ambassadors of the sport we are all so obviously passionate about should be.
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
There is no question here, Nalle, though polite enough, is being a jerk. Chris' comparison to Tommy's project is perfectly apt. Chris lives in Spain, found the project, bolted the project, and has been working on it like a madman for months and months. Then along comes Nalle, who feels bad because Chris didn't want to let him climb.

Imagine you're an architect and you are about to do the ribbon cutting ceremony on an incredibly important public building. Everybody's watching, you've spent months and months working on this project, and you've been waiting for this moment with great anticipation. But then some other architect comes in and is like "Hey, can I cut that ribbon?"

Pffffffffffft. Go climb anywhere else in the world! Or, AT LEAST, Nalle should have talked to Chris about climbing FRFM before even leaving for Spain.
jasonkonysky on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Maybe the other guys we're trying for beta and not the send? I mean, if they're Chris's friends, than they may also know his feelings on the FA process and we're simply trying to figure out the moves for themselves while still respecting his motivation for the ascent? Because, dude, you're an ANIMAL, and they probably would've felt burned if you came up and walked the thing in front of them. I've never discovered, bolted and projected any routes, but it seems like it can be a very personal process and to close it off with the FA is probably the one of the most satisfying feelings you can have as a climber. You guys are both rad people probably, and it's too bad you didn't meet under a different rock.
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I find it very interesting that Nalle went to Spain to specifically try FRFM (Sharma's main project) awhile is was out of town, knowing that Sharma had not sent the route yet. Try to steal some thunder maybe? I'm thinking so.....
jasonkonysky on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
And don't pay any attention to the people that respond anonymously, it's clear they're morons.
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle you sound like a great guy, and have spoken very nicely on an issue on which there may very well may not be a black-and-white correct vs. incorrect answer.

For the record I always side with the equipper on most issues that are "grey." In this case as well, I think Sharma has made a sound argument for _asking_ Nalle to give him some more time on the route.

In my mind, it's the internet community that is making an issue out of what happened, and I am glad both climbers have responded with class and refused to get dragged in the mud.
Ryan on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
After reading Chris?s response on Daila?s blog site I have to agree with what he is saying. I really liked Chris?s reference to Tommy Caldwell on Mescalito (on El Cap). How would Tommy feel if Chris flew out to just try Mescalito (and nothing else) (without Tommy), after Tommy has practically dedicated his life to this project? He wouldn?t be happy. He would feel like Chris was trying to steal his thunder. Anyone would feel that way. Thought the scale of Mescalito is 1000 times bigger than FRFM the concept essentially the same. I think if Dave or Dani wanted to work on FRFM without Chris, Chris wouldn?t have had a problem with it because they are his close friends. Let?s not forget the reason Chris Sharma is so popular is because of his ability to be a climbing visionary. Like he said FRFM wouldn?t exist today if he had not bolted the line. For Chris being the visionary he is and for all the hard work he has put into bolting and establishing FRFM he deserves to work on the project alone until he gets the FA. Nalle seems like a great guy and I was happy to see he respected Chris?s wishes but to fly all the way out to Spain just to try FRFM knowing Chris bolted the line and has put so much work into it (without the FA) makes me feel like he was trying to steal some thunder from Chris and put the spot light on himself. I think Nalle learned a-lot about sport climbing?..that it is much different than bouldering. Bouldering doesn?t require any bolts to establish a finished product, bouldering is all about vision. You see a set of moves that look hard and you have yourself a tough boulder problem. In sport climbing you have to not only envision the route you also have to bolt it. Chris has the ability to envision top end sport routes and the dedication to bolt them, Nalle on the other hand seems to be just learning the difference.
Nalle Hukkataival on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
It is very easy to be the anonymous person here calling me a jerk, for doing absolutely nothing but respecting the equippers wish, or throwing out assumptions that are not true.

Chris was not out of town when I was there and I climbed with him a lot. Is it possible that maybe I just wanted to try the route because I thought it was cool, instead of "trying to steal some thunder" like the very credible Anonymous seems to think?

This whole issue got blown way out of proportion. Even though I don't agree with Chris's call on this one, not getting to try FRFM was not such a big deal for me.
toothbrush on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I get what you are saying. I could imagine standing under a route watching other people climb with me not allowed to climb it and things feeling a bit odd. But likewise, imagine being one of 3 friends standing below it watching some dude you don't even know hop on something that is quite personal to all of you when you weren't even invited in the first place. I think it would be equally as weird but it is a hard realization to place yourself in those shoes. You seem capable though.

Unfortunately, you did kinda start this cause it all originated from your blog and the response to comments within your blog. There should be some ownership on your part or some acknowledgment on that rather than a "I don't feel the internet is the right place to deal with this". If that's the case, you shouldn't have said anything in the first place. I don't think you realized the impact this would have on the climbing community as we who are not pros must feed our climbing addiction at work by surfing the web for news and feeling like we're involved in something climbing related. These are hard things to consider for yourself, but I think you should consider some sense of "starting the fire" here.

We've all had experiences like this. Not getting picked on the good team to play football and then scoring points against the team you wanted to play on. Or simply sucking at it cause I suck at football. Not an exact example, but we can relate so it's not like the public doesn't understand this.

Sometimes, an example of respect is in NOT asking, but awaiting to be offered - or in appreciating/respecting other peoples honesty with relation to things very personal to them. I think there was an unknowing violation on your part of the etiquette in that area and I don't think you should take it as personal as you are. I don't think anyone is holding you accountable either, like, as if you've made some mistake here. I think the mistake was making a deal out of it, but it's clear you did not do this on purpose. It's also clear that Chris understands your bouldering mindset and I think he has a valid point about the route he bolted and has invested months into. Live and learn move on and I'm sure it's the start of a beautiful relationship. :) Cheers! BTW, your my favorite climber!
bord on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I think characterizing the route as "open" before Nalle went to Spain is wrong. Just because Chris let Dani and Dave climb on the route does not mean he would have invited them to send it. Also, they are close friends and climbing partners of Chris', whereas you are not. Chris likely invited them to climb on the route, perhaps to help with Beta. Certainly they would have held off and had respect for Chris if he wanted to do it first. It seems you went to Spain to try the route without even inquiring about its status. It seems you walk up, when Chris is falling of the last move of a project he has been actively working on (and had been getting shut down by weather on) and basically say "nice to meet you, I haven't really done anything else around here but I came here from Finland to try and do this route you bolted." Why did you choose this route? My guess is because 1) it is bouldery and seemed to fit your style, and 2) because it is now "famous" and you saw it and it looked cool, and 3) because of this fame the ascent will be publicized.
Route climbing is different from bouldering and costs money as well as taking way more time to establish routes than boulder problems. Also, anyone arguing that FAs don't matter is clueless. What is more important, Wolfgang Gullich's ascent of Action Direct or Iker Pou's? The answer is obvious. Although I agree somewhat with Chris' comparison to Mescalito, I think that route is even more of an "open" project than this, in that it has been an established aid route for a long time and those guys are just trying to free it. Here, Chris is the one who put up the route! If you want to try an "open" project he should go to Buoux and try the famous project there.
You seems like an amazing climber and a great guy, I am sure you did not mean to cause any trouble. I think the fact Chris did not want you to try it says loads about the respect he has for your climbing.
Daniel Bähring on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Both Chris' and Nalle's statements are reasonable and they both seem to be nice guys. Climbing is inherently selfish. Or what's the point of moving up a rock? This seems to be a bit of an unfortunate situation. Chris' point of view is absolutely valid and his 'red-tagging' is de facto standard practice in the sportclimbing scene. I can also understand Nalle being psyched on trying FRFM. It really looks badass! Nalle's expectations turned to disappointment. Sad, but that's life and as he said it is not the end of his world.

So, I would encourage everyone to let bygones be bygones, sit back, take a couple of deep breaths and relax and never to forget a basic truth of life: This too shall pass :)
dom on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Nalle, its great to hear first hand from both you and Chris. I think what this episode illustrated is that red-tagging is not a simple good/evil debate and that it should be discussed sensibly. Thanks to the LowDown as well for facilitating this discussion.
Heikki on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Whoa! Some discussion indeed...

Some might say that it's gotten blown out of proportions...

Anyhow, this really seems to be something that divides opinions, and people feel the need to take sides.

While I totally respect Chris's vision of the route, and I'm really impressed about it; Many have brought up how much work it is to actually bolt something and that should be respected. I've always imagined one could do the actual bolting of a (short) route in a day or two. Ofcourse if it needs huge amounts of cleaning, then maybe add a day to that. Atleast I've thought that the top climbers have a really good eye for that. And that the sponsors provide you with the appropriate gear for doing the bolting. Finding and envisioning it could be the hard part. And as I said, that is something I appreciate.

Many have also brought up that it was rude to not to contact Chris before flying to Spain. I don't think anybody meant that you can't actually go into the same country where somebody has a project.. Yes, admittedly, Nalle mentioned that he was really excited to try out FRFM; And that he made the assumption that it was an open project. I mean why not? It was shown in a well known movie by one of the industrys top filmers, BigUp. It was not said on the movie that it was closed, nor were there any indication of any kind of that. Even further so, there had been pictures posted about other people trying it. Fair to say, If I would have been in the neighborhood, I would have been excited to try it out aswell. (But no, I don't think I could have done it. No way. Propably wouldn't have even made it to the first draw, but would have been nice to try it anyhow.). Would I have contacted Chris to ask if I could try it? Based on above, propably not. I'm not sure actually how either; I've googled Chris Sharma sometimes to read news about him, but never have I seen his phone number or email-address... So contacting him wouldn't have been easy for me.
I guess when you're at the top of the sport, then you propably know someone who knows someone who knows...

Anyhow, the story goes so that they do talk to eachother before Nalle tries it. Chris asks Nalle to give him time to finish the project, Nalle agrees and gives Chris time and doesn't go on the route.

My take on this is that asking is polite, and giving is polite. Why some (better friends?) were allowed to try it even after that, I can only guess, though that part does seem a bit weird. Maybe it was beta, maybe something else. Don't know.

Anyhow, It would be interesting to hear your take on how much time is reasonable? I've heard about places that have been kept secret for their location for years, but this was after all well told in a movie where this is. So how much time should one be given? The amount he asks? Or is there a reasonable standard that has evolved in the community?
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Such an uncool attitude from Chris the cool climber..
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
It's interesting how many people in this discussion do not take into account that apart from the effort of bolting and equipping a line and the personal relationship to close friends who you trust not to send your line and spread the news in the climbing media, each professional climber who is not a fulltime climbing bum like some unique individuals e.g. in Yosemite must earn a living and support their climbing and travelling. All famous climbers chose this path and go on presentations and tours where they describe their journeys and efforts and at the same time promote their climbing in DVD releases. The same applies to climbers who have decided to go on expeditions to Patagonia or Baffin Island.

When someone has put a tremendous effort into equipping a route, working the project and waiting through bad weather periods like this extremely cold and wet winter in Spain, I would consider it natural for such climber to reserve the first ascent and the payback for all his efforts for a certain period of time.

It is nonsense to speculate on whether Nalle would have sent the route even though it may be short and bouldery. Apart from the personal journey and setbacks connected to redpointing the route, both Chris and Nalle are professional climbers and the news of Nalle trying or successfully sending the route would have found attending in the climbing community.

IMHO, Chris is right in pointing out that there are other futuristic and likely also short/drastically overhanging/bouldery routes in the same area but only FRFM draws this attention due to the media coverage it receives. While I agree that media coverage of routes tried is not the same as routes sent, as non-professional climber, I do enjoy watching the challenges that people like Chris, Nalle and other world class climbers take on.

Bottom line: a big drama about something which should not be.
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle was standing at the playground looking at the other kids playing and he wasn't allowed to join them. Very childish of Chris and definitely not the way it works in bouldering where Nalle learnt his ethics.

All the chipping, red tagging and controversy in sport climbing makes me glad I'm a boulderer. Let them have it.

- Fred
Anonymous on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
.........(just a small reminder that the drama is on these stupid blogs, not between Chris and Nalle, look closely)............................................................................................................
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V6LCLUvoqQI/S4j9DcNpGhI/AAAAAAAAAt8/tNKom5-KYdc/s1600-h/cerveza!.jpg
Randall Baum on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
@Spencer

I totally agree with your comment. I think Nalle and Chris are handling this bit of drama in a very admirable manner. They are both not only outstanding climbers, but respectful and humble individuals.

I think the issue of red-tags are best decided on an individual basis. Boulder problems and routes take all shapes and sizes. Some require days of cleaning and equipping, while others are naturally pristine. It is up the equipper and the other climber to decide who gets the FA. And, as always, respect and honesty are of the utmost importance in these matters, as well as all other things climbing.

Best of luck to Nalle and Chris. You guys are class acts!!
Unai on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Chris and his friends try his rute and nalle have to choose another rute to try. Is that a big world problem?
Nalle mate, bolt a nice project or just repeat La Rambla but leave quiet people live life at it´s crag..
peace out.
Noah Kaufman, MD on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle,

I can see your frustration with this issue! This is a hard one. Driving all that way... I wonder if you could have climbed on it with those guys after a promise not to send. Did you ask if you could just work it in sections so that you could come back with beta sussed? That might have been some solace. I respect other's wishes, but it's hard when they seem to interfere with your own wishes. You were a mensch to have given Chris the time he needs to send. He obviously cares deeply for this rad climb. That being said, I know Chris will have no problem with me trying it!
fastKO on 31 Mar 2010 - thelowdown-blog
"Later on I found it extremely weird standing there on the ground, watching Dave Graham and Dani Andrada trying FRFM, when I wasn't allowed to. I totally understand when Chris says he doesn't want to turn it into a contest to see who does it first, but I surely felt left out standing there below the route, watching others trying it. I don't think it's cool to be separating people like that, who's allowed to try it and who's not."

actually, this is the core of the whole thing! this is for sure not the picture i wanna get while thinking/talking about "climbing etiquette"! and as we talk about red-tagging... this is an old european redpointing thing, where the bolters put some shoestrings into the first bolt to sign that the so marked route is still projected by the bolter and is therefore not allowed to do. but this didnt mean you were not allowed to try! especially not after having asked, and even less while all parties were at place trying/working together! and as we draw the line to hard projects, we can be sure that trying is not going for it! its big difference between trying something and giving something a burn!!! so i dont see why nalle should not have tried it!?! maybe you would have onsighted it? man, this story is just sad!!! and they really sat there talking to eachother wondering howdahell you got the idea to come to spain to try this route without asking??? THIS is strange!!! nalle, its great how easy you take this, i would be really pissed!!! because this is really not okay! and for sure: respect is something you have to earn not something you just can ask! and sometimes you should not blindly give respect! otherwise king of the jungle will be the one screaming the loudest...
ese on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I appreciate the way you two guys come along with that probem face-to-face. Isn't that a big pile of shit???
There is some etiquette(or maybe there WAS) e.g. in Frankenjura in the '80s and '90s that says a project is for the one who bolted the route, unless he's not clearly opening the project for others and the naming of the route is for the first ascender (though many of the french guys will have a different opinion).
To point that out clearly: I never read any comments (or anything else) about the fact, that Chris opened FRFM. If Nalle goes there with the objective trying FRFM, it's kind of naive. On the other hand, I don't understand why Chris is so unsocial, to not let Nalle also try the route, above all when his friends are obviously 'allowed' to...
In my opinion there are just two huuuuge EGOs colliding...
johnson & johnson on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle quote " Even though I don't agree with Chris's call on this one, not getting to try FRFM was not such a big deal for me" than stop replying = end of discussion. too bad this whole bitxhing started.
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
I?m so fed up with the old ?have you ever bolted a line before? excuse. If you ever did bolt or open ( it doesn?t have to be bolted now does it?) a line than you should better now that:
- nobody forced you to do it (I hope :))
- it?s a lot of unselfish and probably unrewarded work that?s gonna benefit a lot of strangers that you?ll not meet or hear anything from
- your name might not be remembered or mentioned related to that but ultimately you did improve this climbing world we live in and that should be part of the reason you did it in the first place, cause see point n?1
- unless you bought it you?re on public space and you don?t own it and sadly bolts, glue?ins etc can?t be taken out once you?re done with, so you can?t restrict access to because it?s not your backyard remember
- if you wanna keep it a secret until you send it, don?t flaunt it, don?t run beating the drum to the media so you get your name out there to sell more products(I don?t think there?s anything wrong with marketing), wait to be ready for the attention it?s gonna draw cause it doesn?t belong to you and you won?t be able to keep others away, same backyard we?re talking about 
? if you?re such a public figure remember that you have to own your image or don?t have one

You guys think that Randy Leavitt felt bad about all his projects that he opened and CS or others sent. He actually seemed genuinely happy that he helped the ?new generation? push things forward and acomplish the things that eluded him, remember Chris?
 Maybe you don?t anymore, but maybe it?s time to and time to pay it forward!
Oh and about TC, I remember him putting it out there for the strong climbers to join him. Or that?s not how Kevin Jorgeson ended up on that wall with him right now?!
And yeah, I know the energy it takes to hang on a fifi and hand drill a bolt hole.
We?re transient on this world fellas let?s try to make it better and improve it for when we won?t be around :)
CMI
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
"You guys think that Randy Leavitt felt bad about all his projects that he opened and CS or others sent. He actually seemed genuinely happy that he helped the ?new generation? push things forward and acomplish the things that eluded him, remember Chris?"

Randy is a great guy who has contributed massively to the sport, but BITD he guarded his projects just as jealously as Chris is doing with FRFM. There is no comparison between a mid 40 year-old Randy letting others try routes he bolted but has no hope of doing anymore, with something that Chris, in his prime, bolted and is literally one move away from.

Watch this Made In China segment on Vimeo and you'll see and hear Chris talk about projects he bolted but was unable to send.

http://www.vimeo.com/6540226

Someone who has put in as much time and effort as Chris has at bolting routes should have their wishes respected, especially in an area with virtually unlimited potential.
abraham on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle u seem like a really cool dude and all. Climbing appears to be more of a life style than a hobby. Its also obvious that you like to keep the public in the loop, but for reals bro !!! who gives a shit what other people think man. Most people will never know what it is 2 climb at an elite level. It also appears that there was some sort of issue with FRFM but this hole internet thing has turned it into some straight online drama. Don't let that shit get you down Man, just stay positive and continue crushing.

abe -
gian on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
"each professional climber...must earn a living and support their climbing and travelling"

(quote : anonymous above).

funny that this is used as an argument in favour of red-tagging: for me it's exactly the opposite!
I would understand it much more in case of amateur climbers, in a way...

so, let's forget the climbers for a minute and focus on the professionals.
My understanding is that chris sharma starts from a kind of dominant position in the sponsorship market, am i wrong with that?

is it fair that a dominant player calls himself out of competition in this particular way, eg marketizing an unfinished "product" (the route) well before the arrival on the markets (the FA) and puts an absolute ban on anyone trying something similar?

imagine that a dominant rockshoe compani called "LaS.10" had a very clever, unprecedented concept for a new shoe. The idea could be a real step forward, but needs to be tested and refined a fair bit.
Despite being very early in the developement, they start a massive ad campaign on the new model, and send athletes around with the prototypes.
A smaller rockshoe company somehow gets to inspect a couple of prototypes very closely, and starts to work on a "copy" that cleverly gets around the patents LaS.10 has already registered...
LaS.10 gets to know what's going on and menace a legal action if the copycat doesn't stop the developement of its own model immediately...
would you think that the copycat is being an asshole or that LaS.10 first made an ovious, naive error in letting the world know what they are working on?
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle did the right thing respecting Chris' wishes but he could've left a comment on Daila Ojeda's blog asking permission if there was absolutely no other way to get in contact with Chris before flying over to Spain.

I imagine if he had chris probably would have allowed him.

But nevermind eh, there's plenty of good rock about. Think it's time this whole drama thing was put to rest, nuff said.

- Steve
Andreas on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
hey nalle, i saw you climbing demencia senil (i even have a photo on my blog)...how was the progress on that line?
(sorry for not stepping in on the FRFM thing ;)
Morgan74 on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Nalle - I sympathise but I am just wondering were you interested in trying the route if it had already been climbed (by anybody) or was this just about doing an FA?
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
While many commentators suggest that it is ?fair? that a person who bolts a route gets the right to do the first ascent, one could also look at the issue from a more ?economic? point of view which is related to the analysis of the optimal strength of intellectual property right protection: the trade-off here is that giving a ?first ascent monopoly? to the equipper increases the reward for him and therefore the incentives to bolt new routes but at the same time temporarily prevents others from climbing/ trying the route who might enjoy doing so. Making red tagging a common practive might therefore lead to more routes being bolted and therefore increase the number of climbs that can be done in the future, but at the cost of keeping them ?private property? for a while and excluding enthusiastic climbers from trying them. So, the question is what extent of red tagging (if any) is required to optimally solve this trade- off. The relevant question is clearly to which extent equippers are motivated by the prospect of having a ?monopoly? on the first ascent and whether not respecting red tagging would actually reduce the number of bolted lines. There are clearly different cases here: if someone knows all the routes in his home area by heart, he would probably even bolt new lines without being granted the first ascent monoply as the joy of climbing them in the future (repeatedly) more then outweights the costs (in terms of time and money) of equipping them. Then, no red tagging is needed as it would only reduce the number of climbers enjoying the climb without increasing the number of bolted lines. If there is however the choice between repeating one of many available routes or equipping a new one, one might not want to do the latter if chances are high that someone else will do the first ascent. In such a case, allowing some red tagging might be a good thing to encourage the bolting of new routes. Coming to proclimbers, they would probably not stop searching and bolting beautiful lines and trying to climb them if they were not guaranteed the first ascent right (they might still be the first ascendant with some probability or even enjoy a second ascent). So, no red tagging might be needed. However, these pros might then try to keep their projects secret until they have done them and therefore deprive the internet community of interesting reports about what they are doing and how close they are to sending. While sponsors might mainly care about first ascents, they might care even more about first ascents of open projects so that top climbers might actually choose not to red tag a project in order to show that they got the first ascent because they were the best or most committed. (continued in next post)
ads.ukclimbing.com
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
(last post continued)
Getting mentioned as the equipper of a route in a guidebook and getting credit for that from the climbing community might also be incentive enough to bolt a line and last but not least there might even be climbers who do not care that much about first ascents and reputation and enjoy giving to the community or simply like to climb beautiful lines and hang out with friends in nature... However, in other cases, even allowing to red tag a route might not be incentive enough to to equip it although eqipping it might be ?socially optimal? in the sense that the total benefit derived by all future climbers that might climb it outweights the costs of equipping it. Then, one might even want to introduce ?super red tagging? that allows equippers of a route to charge money (or some other compensation) from repeaters. As this is clearly not practicable and would exclude even more climbers from trying existing routes than red tagging does, one might want to consider another solution to provide incentives to equip routes: some climbing club or even a government agency might pay people to bolt lines but require them to make them freely accessible to everyone witout allowing any red tag. While this option has the benefit of increasing the number of climbs while at the same time allowing the maximal number of climbers to enjoy them, the problem is clearly where to get the money from and also whether such a club would be able to hire people that have the vision to bolt nice lines...
Given that there are more and more climbers with drilling machines and less and less unbolted rocks, one need not fear that no more routes get equipped if there is no red tagging, especially because first ascents are not the only thing that motivate equippers. However, if no club or whatever is willing to pay for equipping, allowing red tagging (of a limited time span) might in my view be good compromise to give incentives to eqip.
Anonymous on 01 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
http://www.deadpointmag.com/articles/view/chris-sharma-big-nalle-hukkataival-and-red-tag
Puli on 02 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
One thing is having open projects to work out with your friends.

Another thing is non invited people taking aeroplanes to step on your own projects in an attempt to take the first ascent out of you.

Thump up to Chris.
dantheman52089 on 04 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Conrack says...
Nalle, you are wrong.
Professional and weekend climbers alike all relate climbing to art, finding the line, having the vision to see moves going down, working the painting, clay, spray paint, sculpture, novel, rock etc. until the final work is completed to the best of the original artists interpretation.
I don't understand why every other single sport in the world, ego is accepted, understood and ultimately expected. Sharma is the Michael Jordan of climbing, he has opened the most difficult routes in the world, he's the only climber in the world with a major shoe brand marketing shoes off of his name, why shouldn't his ego come into play regarding possibly THE most difficult route in the world? It is entirely human nature to have an ego, to thrive off of said ego. You wouldn't even contemplate the possibility of trying frfm if your ego weren't inflated enough to believe you could climb the hardest route in the world, ESPECIALLY when you don't even climb routes! It's as if climbers try to be so far from the mainstream that they end up being entirely hypocritical.
You can't be an accomplished artist without believing you're work is at the very least respected, and more likely, admired.
Think of FRFM as the fresco that adorns the sistine chapel created by Michelangelo; four years of work to create arguably the greatest work of art in history, frfm is possibly the first 9b+ in the world, almost two years of work in the making. Now imagine one of michelangelo's peers inviting himself after 3 years of work to add his own flair to it without an invite from the original artist, wouldn't it make sense for michelangelo to ask for more time to finish it before the peer had a chance?
Nalle you say you don't understand why people are attacking you for your point of view, if you simply stated that chris is wrong, and that you don't respect chris's view on this matter, you wouldn't be a hypocrite. You argue that you respected chris's wishes and were more than honorable. Yet you continue to argue that chris is in the wrong for trying to finish the artwork he viewed, cleaned, and has dedicated himself to .. just because you say, 'i somewhat understand why chris didn't want me climbing his route..' doesn't mean you have respected chris's wishes. taking potshots at chris through your blog is childish and cowardly. "I find it interesting how I'm being judged for doing absolutely nothing at all, except respecting Chris's request and the effort he has put in the route." if you actually respected his wishes and the effort he put into the route, you wouldn't be acting in this manner.
You argue that it would've been entirely a different situation had BigUp prefaced the airing of frfm with a 'closed route' warning. You expect the climbing community to believe you go to the single greatest concentration of hard, bouldery sport routes in the world only content on working the most hyped up route in the world? And have no intention of benefiting from the media coverage from said route?
there is one hundred percent difference between dg climbing the redtagged girl talk, which amounted to 8c+, and frfm 9b+? media sensationalism and coverage, sponsorship, and ego.
Nalle, you're in incredibly gifted boulderer, when you work on a 9a super hyped boulder problem for 2 years and someone tries to swoop in and take it from you, then you'll understand. Until then, either stay off a rope or put in the effort to create your own routes.
dantheman52089 on 04 Apr 2010 - thelowdown-blog
Conrack says...
Nalle, you are wrong.
Professional and weekend climbers alike all relate climbing to art, finding the line, having the vision to see moves going down, working the painting, clay, spray paint, sculpture, novel, rock etc. until the final work is completed to the best of the original artists interpretation.
I don't understand why every other single sport in the world, ego is accepted, understood and ultimately expected. Sharma is the Michael Jordan of climbing, he has opened the most difficult routes in the world, he's the only climber in the world with a major shoe brand marketing shoes off of his name, why shouldn't his ego come into play regarding possibly THE most difficult route in the world? It is entirely human nature to have an ego, to thrive off of said ego. You wouldn't even contemplate the possibility of trying frfm if your ego weren't inflated enough to believe you could climb the hardest route in the world, ESPECIALLY when you don't even climb routes! It's as if climbers try to be so far from the mainstream that they end up being entirely hypocritical.
You can't be an accomplished artist without believing you're work is at the very least respected, and more likely, admired.
Think of FRFM as the fresco that adorns the sistine chapel created by Michelangelo; four years of work to create arguably the greatest work of art in history, frfm is possibly the first 9b+ in the world, almost two years of work in the making. Now imagine one of michelangelo's peers inviting himself after 3 years of work to add his own flair to it without an invite from the original artist, wouldn't it make sense for michelangelo to ask for more time to finish it before the peer had a chance?
Nalle you say you don't understand why people are attacking you for your point of view, if you simply stated that chris is wrong, and that you don't respect chris's view on this matter, you wouldn't be a hypocrite. You argue that you respected chris's wishes and were more than honorable. Yet you continue to argue that chris is in the wrong for trying to finish the artwork he viewed, cleaned, and has dedicated himself to .. just because you say, 'i somewhat understand why chris didn't want me climbing his route..' doesn't mean you have respected chris's wishes. taking potshots at chris through your blog is childish and cowardly. "I find it interesting how I'm being judged for doing absolutely nothing at all, except respecting Chris's request and the effort he has put in the route." if you actually respected his wishes and the effort he put into the route, you wouldn't be acting in this manner.
You argue that it would've been entirely a different situation had BigUp prefaced the airing of frfm with a 'closed route' warning. You expect the climbing community to believe you go to the single greatest concentration of hard, bouldery sport routes in the world only content on working the most hyped up route in the world? And have no intention of benefiting from the media coverage from said route?
there is one hundred percent difference between dg climbing the redtagged girl talk, which amounted to 8c+, and frfm 9b+? media sensationalism and coverage, sponsorship, and ego.
Nalle, you're in incredibly gifted boulderer, when you work on a 9a super hyped boulder problem for 2 years and someone tries to swoop in and take it from you, then you'll understand. Until then, either stay off a rope or put in the effort to create your own routes.
joy on 16 May 2010 - thelowdown-blog
JasonKonysky disappeared off the face of the Earth! DOUCHE BAG ANYWAYS!

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