UKC

Now seems a pivotable time to make steps to getting the closed system on Cairngorm lifted. You only have untill the 30th September to have your say and get the closed system lifted so we can all use the mountain again as before, its uplift and have this restriction to our free access removed.

For those not in the know if you take the funicular train to the top in the Summer you are not allowed to leave the building...also Winter climbers, Guides/Instructors, ski-tourers etc in the Winter if leaving the ski area are not allowed on the funicular either...but if you are skiing within the ski area you can leave as you like.

Cairngorm Mountain are now offering guided summit walks but highly qualified and vastly experienced Guides/Instructors locally cannot. Surely also Cairngorm are missing out on a redily available revenue also and perhaps need our support to get the legislation in place removed ?

Please take five minutes to write to Ian Whittaker and express your interest to having this rediculous system forced upon us lifted. We all should have the choice to access the mountains as we wish and not have something forced upon us as a result of perhaps over inflated visitor numbers as part of a European funding application for the Funicular, seized by the environmental bodies and as a result have access squeezed to the unfavourable closed system we now have in place.

Please use the link below to see details :

http://www.cairngormmountain.co.uk/mountain-access-and-conservation

In reply to JML: thanks for drawing my attention to this consultation. I will email my views to the ski company.

Here's some more information for those not in the know. We all have access to the northern side of the Cairngorms any time we want, winter or summer, by walking up from the ski car park. Access to the plateau and climbing areas by walking from the car park is easier than in any other part of the Cairngorms, and indeed most other parts of the Highlands. Being allowed out from the top of the funicular would not save us (i.e fit mountaineering types) a great deal of time or effort. The restriction was Scottish Natural Heritage's condition for not opposing the construction of the funicular. Their main concern was the likelihood of increased numbers of casual summer visitors to the plateau, which is a very fragile quasi-arctic ecosystem with rare ground-breeding birds.

Rob F

In reply to rif: I'm with you Rob. Anybody with any sense knew when the funicular went in that they would sooner or later try to overturn the restriction preventing them from allowing all and sundry to wander about the plateau without going to the not unreasonable effort of walking up there. Get stuffed. If you want to wander about on the plateau, walk. That's a far better way of limiting numbers than rationing by cost, on whether some fat git can AFFORD to pay a few extra quid to get out.

In reply to JML:
>...have this restriction to our free access removed.

You do know that is complete rubbish don't you?

In reply to JML:

Thank you for drawing my attention to this...

I have an issue with your views regarding "free access". There is nothing closed about Cairngorm. It's a mountain. You can walk up it at any time you want.

I shall indeed wtite to Mr Whittaker and express my views to him.

SFM

In reply to JML:

I like the closed system also. The only main cliff it makes a real difference to is Stac an Fharaidh. I'm happy with the present system of not having tourists wandering about the plateau and damaging that beautiful place.

In reply to JML:
Hmm. Carting people, who wouldn't normally walk there, up the funicular, then letting them loose on the Cairngorm plateau.
And in winter, too, you say?
Sounds like a great idea, I can't see how that could possibly go wrong.

In reply to JML: The closed system is fine with me, it's not like it's much further to walk to go to any cliff as a result of having it there, and encouraging random members of the public to get out at the top on an apparently sunny winter's day could go very wrong

In reply to JML: Can't see the issue with lifting the restriction myself. All this talk about 'right to access as we want' is a bit silly though - as said before you can walk up.

But since the funicular is in place, why not allow access to the summit? There is practically a fenced in path the whole way, and I'm not aware of anything of great ecological interest in the immediate summit area (someone can probably correct me on this). The amount of people that will actually take the initiative to wander off around other parts of the Northern Corries will be pretty minimal I would think, so not likely to affect the fragile ecology greatly.

I've noticed (more in the hillwalking fraternity) a lot of upset about this due to the perception that it is cheating and will allow the 'wrong' type of people access to the summit. That is a load of nonsense.

In reply to JML:

I'd like to point out that the guided summit walks are provisional. They have to show that there is no detrimental impact on the environment because of them.

Mehmet

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Do you think climbers damage the place? The tourist climbers I mean?

In reply to JML:

There are aspects of the closed system that don't make sense as you point out, but as others have pointed out, open it up completely, and guaranteed you will have a whole heap of greater problems "forced" upon others (e.g. rescue teams).

If you are that upset about the situation, don't go there. It's clear what the situation is if you buy a ticket. If you don't agree with it, don't buy a ticket. There's absolutely nothing stopping you buying a day pass for the resort, then going for a tour. Nothing at all.

The road already takes you to over 2000ft. It's really not that much effort to get onto the plateau if you are a hillwalker/ski tourer/climber. Or is putting the effort in being "forced" upon you as well, and it's your "right" for easy access ...

In reply to JML:
I'm pretty comfortable with the closed system they have. It takes little time at all to walk from the ski centre carpark up to the cairngorm plateau. Walkers and climbers certainly should not be complaining that they can't get a train to the summit (or nearby in this case).

There is a line of fence posts (not connected) that goes about 2/3 of the way to the summit from the Ptarmigan, but not all of the way so although it may seem easy enough for folk with a bit of hill nouse to walk to and from the summit, I can easily see how people can could get disorientated and loose their way if the vis is poor or the weather craps out when they are out of sight of the Ptarmigan. Hell, pleanty of experienced people have gotten lost on the plateau!

The one area thing I would change is the rule about rucksacks (which may already have been changed) where even though we were in downhill gear we were denied access to the funicular due to carrying them (this was a few years ago now though).

The difference it would make to most hill days bar cairngorm its'self would be minimal by the time you've queued for tickets, to get on the train etc so I do wonder what the reason for the OP is. One of the "vastly experienced guides/instructors locally"?

As has been pointed out - we have free access to the mountain, just walk up from the carpark.

It is wrong that Cairngorm Mountain can offer guided tours from the top station whilst refusing to allow others to do the same though.

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to JML:

I've filed a couple of recent pieces on this for the Caledonian Mercury, possibly of interest:

http://outdoors.caledonianmercury.com/2010/07/25/guides-and-paywalls-the-la...

http://outdoors.caledonianmercury.com/2010/08/06/steady-uptake-and-satisfie...

In reply to Dave Hewitt: Bluergh! Who the hell invented the word 'staycation'?

Anyway, those figures would tend to back up my feeling that very few people would wander much further than the Ptarmigan/summit area.

As far as increasing incidents where the MRT would need to be involved, this is always trotted out when changes to access are discussed. Anybody actually have any examples to back it up? Slightly different situation, but how many incidents do Nant Peris MRT attend where walkers who used the train to get up Snowdon have required a rescue? I don't know, but I'd quite like to.

In reply to zzz:

The same unutterable arsehole that came up with "Glamping" I assume.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Good pieces there. Get rid of the restrictions I say.

In reply to JML: There is a lot of background and history about this on the MCofS website, from the time when the funicular was proposed, and being objected to by a large number of individuals and conservation bodies (including the MCofS)- http://www.mcofs.org.uk/cairngorm-funicular.asp

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned above, is that the "Closed System" was the Cairngorm Mountain company's OWN proposal in order to get round many of the objections and concerns about conservation, and to meet conditions laid down for funding. Their Visitor Management Plan summary states -
"•The implementation of a "Closed system" prevents non-skiing visitors from leaving the Ptarmigan throughout the year and is consistent with European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) conditions"

The MCofS information also refers to "The parties to the Section 50 agreement have all signed legally binding documents committing themselves to the Closed System" and having to "re-pay the £2.7M of EU grant money which has to be paid back when any one of their strict conditions is broken", so it doesn't look as thought getting the closed system lifted would be a simple thing to do (even if you believe it would be a good idea!)

The MCofS news item about this consultation says they will be responding themselves after careful consideration. Given their past views, it seems unlikely they will be in favour of relaxing the closed system, so it would probably be a good idea to copy any responses (in favour of against) to them as well as just responding to Cairngorm Mountains own consultation exercise.

I'm quite happy to see the closed system remain, and as said above we already have full (and much cheaper!) access to the mountain simply by walking!

Cheers
Andy

In reply to zzz:

There often seems to be a lack of awareness of just how far it is from the Ptarmigan to Cairn Gorm summit. 500ft on a good path might not be far for regular hillgoers, but it must look near-insurmountable for large swathes of the population, including lots of those who go up in the funicular. Because of this, like you I don’t think that huge numbers would wander far afield were the exit doors to be flung open (not that I’m saying that should happen).
The figures produced by those who worry about wholesale tramplement feel somewhat cranked up. I studied stats many years ago and this, allied to standard journalistic scepticism, means I’m always wary of estimates and generalised figures. There sometimes almost seems to be an implied linking with the Snowdon situation re summit numbers, whereas in one case the summit is a hop and a step from the top station, in the other it’s a fair old hike.

In reply to JML:

As most folk have said it probably doesn't make a huge difference to climbers and I wouldn't use it for that.

However I'd be pretty stoked on the opportunity to pay a tenner for a day ticket and use it to access the corries on skis. You could easily get 4 or 5 descents of gullies in sneachda using the train.

No doubt they will work out a way of stopping you doing that or charging you more.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

In good weather, I think it's one of those that looks further than it is.
In poor conditions (ie when at its most dangerous), it doesn't look so far, as it's easy to think that you can see the top, when you get there it isn't but you think you can see the top just ahead, etc.

In reply to JML:

I'm all for restrictions to protect the fragile plateau environment. They should be taken further with a fat parking/toll fee inclusive in the price of the funicular/ski pass, payable at a gate in Glenmore. That would certainly thin out the crowds. We would all still be free to walk up.

In reply to JML:

'Closed System' my arse. I've seen plenty of folk up there wander in and out as suits them. I've been up on the funicular during winter and they were letting folk out to go sledging and have a wander around. I was up again a few months ago with my daughter and saw a couple of tourists leave the building and head up the path.

In reply to StuDoig:

"It is wrong that Cairngorm Mountain can offer guided tours from the top station whilst refusing to allow others to do the same though"

It's their ball, seems fair enough to allow them to pick the team. If you were an ML etc - How much could you charge someone for short stroll up to Cairngorm from the station? £5 + ticket?

In reply to Donald M:


Nice to see you back Donald.

Any chance of a reasoned argument or are you just expressing an ill considered opinion?

In reply to JML: The only justification for these restrictions can be the environmental effect of visitors accessing the plateau. However, before the funicular was built there were no restrictions on using the old chair lift to access the summit plateau. Were no studies done to measure the environmental impact from these visitors? Did stopping this access result in a significant improvement?

If there are genuine environmental benefits then the restrictions should continue. If not, then they should be lifted.

In reply to Removed User:

None whatsoever! This is UKC, any well reasoned argument is a waste of time and resources as it get's shouted down by self-important Geoffreys who are so clueless but so sure of themselves that their bottom lip quivers leading to the dummy being spat and a huff. Total waste of time.

In reply to Donald M:

Thanks for such a self assured answer. Cheers.

In reply to JML: Bait the hook and how they bite...I myself do not agree or disagree with the closed system. In fact any development and upgrading of the antiquated uplift at Cairngorm is a good thing. I have been an active winter climber,ski-tourer for over 25 years both for leisure and work related activities.
Most seem to miss the point...walking into the Corries, over the back or to the top of the hill instead of using a train is not the issue. Perhaps freeing access a little should be our agenda, just remember the leaner winters especially if driving from the West as there is no snow or poor conditions over there, how good would an early train taking you into the snow line quickly be for your days work eg Aonach Mor (also a SSSI site with no access restrictions). Also if taking a beginners,intermediate ski touring group out on day one or two and not wanting to knacker them for the rest of the week but faced with a 1 to 2 hour walk to the snow line in ski-touring boots, carrying skis!!
Also in the summer months Cairngorm could perhaps offer some other activities other than the pink rinse coach tour brigade of the two wheeled variety again like Aonach Mor.
The issue seems to be education rather than restriction. Let people know where they are, what is there, what damage they can do and if they dont know what they are doing or dont want to listen then not to bother !!

In reply to JML:

"Also if taking a beginners,intermediate ski touring group out on day one or two and not wanting to knacker them for the rest of the week but faced with a 1 to 2 hour walk to the snow line in ski-touring boots, carrying skis!!"

What's wrong with that? Sounds normal to me, and should be an integral part of a course in ski touring here In fact, you've got it a bit wrong. It's easier to walk in in trainers, carrying the ski boots and skis, then change into the ski kit for your tour.

As I said earlier, the car park at Cairngorm is already at 2000ft. The fact that the train exists, but there's restrictions regarding it's use, is neither here nor there with regards to someone offering a ski touring course in the area. Just get on with it.

In February, the Cas car park was full, so we parked in the Ciste car park. There was a shuttle bus service to the Cas car park. I kid you not, there were hillwalkers and climbers queueing to get on that bus to save the 15 minute walk up the road. I agree that education rather than restriction would be the ideal, but that area seems to attract a particular level of crazyness.

In reply to Donald M:
Get rid of the restrictions I say.


Totally agree with you Donald.

Am I right in thinking there were no restriction when the chairlift was in place but there was little encouragement?

If visitors are allowed out isn't the danger that plateau is actively marketed with the danger of large numbers affecting the environment beyond the ski area negatively? I am also sure a few will fall of cliffs/freeze to death/pop out in Tomintoul, but I am less bothered about this.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:
Dave

One of those Mercury articles contained a link to another interesting one of yours, from March this year, which went into a lot of detail about the recent financial problems of Cairngorm Mountain Ltd, and possible solutions -
http://outdoors.caledonianmercury.com/2010/03/03/cairngorm-funicular-slamme...

While the MCofS isn't unbiased on the subject, having consistently opposed the funicular right from the start, they seem to have foreseen this when they said in 2000 -
"There is a very real possibility that if the funicular is built the UK taxpayer will end up paying for it 4 times over. Firstly to build it, and secondly to re-pay the £2.7M of EU grant money which has to be paid back when any one of their strict conditions is broken. Thirdly, when the facility begins to struggle and show signs of failing there would be the inevitable attempt to "make it work by throwing more public money at it" phase. Finally, when Clause 10 is invoked, there would be the demolition phase, which for the fourth and final time would be funded by us, the UK taxpayers!".

Since you clearly know a great deal about the background to this maybe you could expand on a couple of things -
- how easy would it actually be to relax the closed system, given that there seem to be a number of legal obligations signed up to by all the parties?
- what would be the position re having to pay back the almost £3million EU grant which seems to have been given on condition that access was restricted?

Thanks
Andy

In reply to Andy Cairns:

Had forgotten I’d written that March piece! Brain = sieve. My knowledge of CML matters goes back quite a long way but is patchy, and takes the standard journalistic form of cramming re background/quotes etc in the process of writing a piece, then promptly half-forgetting most of it once the piece is out there and I’m thinking about some completely different subject.
But re your questions, the first one is very hard to call – there are legal lock-ins but I seem to recall these might be time-constrained (and we’re now not that far away from ten years of the funic, which might be one of the thresholds, although I’m not sure).
A lot depends on circumstance, however – one of the reasons I’m so interested in the “escape” scenario re the guided walks is because if someone did this and then had an accident it could/would become very high profile and could well change all sorts of things – eg it would probably result in a much stricter closed-system setup than we’ve seen previously. (Incidentally I concur with Toby S’s observation upthread – anecdotally the system doesn’t seem to have been kept entirely closed thus far.)
Obviously I hope to goodness that such an escape/accident situation never happens, for the obvious reason – but also because my overall take on the whole CML etc saga has long been that it’s essentially comic, with all sides steadily cranking up the oddness/weirdness.
Good example of this is the situation if you walk up then suddenly fancy a cuppa. My experience of this (in Sept 2004) was: ring doorbell round back of the Ptarmigan, someone answers and gets you to sign in. Then have cuppa and scone no probs (quite nice). Browse gift/bookshop which is itself comic as it contains books by high-conservationists who presumably disapprove of the whole ski centre dating back to 1960s or whenever. Then seek out staff (this took some time) to get signed out and ushered out into the 1100-metre weather. All rather odd/entertaining – I particularly liked the idea of a doorbell at that altitude.
Re the second question, the EU money situation is definitely something I’ve half-forgotten – will rummage through some old notes and see if I can find anything that might help to clarify things – not that it’s ever easy to get the words “Cairn Gorm” and “clarification” into the same sentence.

Dave

In reply to JML: It really would be appalling if commercial interests werent allowed to renege on any commitments previousley made to secure funding when there is more money to be made from "Theme Park Scotland"

In reply to Dave Hewitt:
Walked into Sneachda once, found it was too windy to climb pleasantly and, rather than waste the day, staggered over the plateau in an hoolie, walked in the back door of the Ptarmigan, had a couple of hot chocolates and a square slice butty before walking back out into the wind. It was a surreal experience.

In reply to JML:

As a ski tourer and a lazy one at that, I'd quite happily see the closed system lifted in winter with a reduced one-way ticket offered. I can't see any reason I'd use it for walking / climbing but I'd definitely use it for touring esp if the cover is poor lower down but good up high. I'd not pay the 30 quid for this though, it would need to be 8-10 quid max.

In summer I'm not so bothered, the days are long enough you can walk up.

In reply to JML:

Closed system my ar^e! I lost count of the number of people I saw jumping over the car park-facing balcomy, rucsacs, freeheel skis and all. No need to campaign, just be a bit more French (get on with it).

NB quite how lazy people can be to avoid 1500ft of uphill amazes me.

In reply to JML:
Dave Hewitt's article states that "escapees" from the tours have to be reported to Scottish Natural Heritage. Then what? Do they come and arrest them?

In reply to Dave Perry:

I think the way it would work is that if the number of reported escapees reached a certain threshold (I don’t what this might be), then SNH might take action in terms of the guided walks. Hence a bunch of people who want a strict closed system could go on the guided walks over a period of time and escape, which would put a stop to the walks. Or something like that.

In reply to MG:

I went up the chairlift when I was a teenager (in 1987 I think) and we went up from the cafe to the summit. I have vague memories of following a path through cloud, and a cairn appearing out of the mist...

In reply to JML: Caringorm is open for access...if you want to enjoy the summit area then walk up. The walk even starts at 630m, your half way there already...man up!!

In reply to JML:
Scrap the closed system?! Are you mad?! Can you imagine the f****n chaos if the funicular users were to gad about around the Ptarmigan building in their high heels, high street fashions, handbags and gladrags, dropping their f****n litter all over the place, then taking a wander 'up the hill'?! It's comical enough at the moment seeing the nick of some people who ascend Cairn Gorm from the car park! As various people have already said, you've already got a 2000' headstart, and the ascent is hardly strenuous, so stop greetin' and get on with it!
A couple of Chairlift user surveys in the late 80's and 90's (roughly) showed that of the total no. of users, 9% and 12% walked further than the summit of CairnGorm - well, we can all see the result of this; in the last couple of years, 230 000 odd people have used the funicular, summer and winter - do the maths(simple arithmetic actually) and then keep a straight face and tell me this isn't going to screw with the fragile ecosystem. Pardon my f****n cynicism/aggression, but if you want a ride to a mountain top, go to the f****n Alps or Snowdonia, save us all a lot of hassle

It is said that 75% of visitors to major attractions don't venture more than 100 yds from the car park so if you count the Ptarmigan as a satellite of the car park I reckon only the most determined tourists would make it to a point where the restaurant was actually out of sight. Having seen the shock and panic on the faces of some tourists taken up there during ski season as part of their bus trip I reckon even 75% is conservative. So the restriction is lifted and the remaining 10-20% do make it through the exit - where do they go? Straight to the summit and back. Is this going to decimate the local flora and fauna? No.

Anyway as others have written the restriction is in name only and I'm sure anybody determined enough can find their way out of the building. Do the staff even care? They're probably all Polish or Czech and too busy serving up the award winning Scotch pies.

In reply to BenJammin': A lot of very heated debate here and rightly so,here then is my 2p's worth,as soon as the closed system is opened up say ta ta to the fragile eco-system"lets be honest with ourselves,how long will the guided groups stick to the paths"and say goodbye to our quality mountain days as i'm sure the idea of finishing a climb to see what could be hundreds of tourists milling about will certainly spoil my day,have they a right to be there-yes,is it a dangerous place-yes,therefore in my humble opinion leave access as it is,if an accident happens to a climber/walker thats a risk they new about,in short leave it to people who can get themselves there and back.

In reply to Rigid Raider:
a few things in reply:
the 9% and 12% in my orig. post refer to people going beyond the summit of Cairn Gorm - which part of 'beyond' don't you understand?
'Do the staff even care?' - yes, and indeed will point out to people that they are breaking their ticket 'terms & conditions'; can they, however, legally/lawfully stop people from leaving the viewing terrace? Of course not, but this 'leakage' is monitored periodically, and is minimal.
There are c.4 Poles, 1Czech, 1 Brazillian, 2 Irish/N.Irish, 1 Chilean, several English and considerably more Scots serving up the '...award winning scotch pies'
Cheers/Slainte/Bottoms up

In reply to BenJammin':

There has never been an out of ski season funicular usage figure close to 230,000, indeed according to Audit Scotland a five year rolling average of non skiing visitors (funicular ticket sales over the full year including Ski Spectator Tickets) is around the 160,000.

By the 90's summer use of the Cairngorm Chairlift as a sight seeing destination had declined markedly from a peak in the 70's of over 100,000 per summer. A side effect of which would be that a higher % of total customers were hill goers heading beyond the Summit who would have more than likely gone anyway.

Another consideration is that the chairlift put off more people than the funicular, but more significantly required a certain degree of mobility to use it esp once the lift was split requiring stairs to be climbed at the mid-station. The Funicular is able to offer easy access to the Ptarmigan for a significant number of less able visitors who either could not have or would not have used the Chairlift in the past.

That combined with the much higher % of visitation for sight seeing means the figures of 9 to 12% going beyond the Summit can not in any way be applied to the Funicular with a straight face!


PTARMIGAN IS NOT A CLOSED SYSTEM IN WINTER!

Comments about the system not being enforced in winter because tourers set of from the balcony shows a misunderstanding of the situation.

The system is not closed during snowsport operations, the only restriction being what can be taken onto the Funicular at the bottom!

What the winter situation currently effects is the absurd situation where non-skiers can effectively use the Funicular to access the mountain, providing they are NOT equipped to be on the mountain!!

This is the biggest nonsense of all. Personally I'd like to see the Ranger led walks continue beyond this year, and the system becoming completely open to all during the Ski Season.


FUTURE CHANGES TO VMP / SECTION 50?

I doubt a free for all would be the ecological disaster many predict, however there is a case for continuing to adopt a precautionary principle - where by if gradual trial changes to the system can be shown not have negative consequences then they should be made permanent, and further relaxations considered.

This does not put in peril the EU funding, the funding is not dependent on restricted access, the condition is that the use the Funicular is put to does not damage the EU protected sites - two different things.

To that end as well as continuing the guided walks and a completely open Winter System, I'd advocate looking at some sort of spring relaxation, where egress is permitted from the Ptarmigan Building once the Ski Season officially ends, while there is still relatively meaningful snow cover in proximity to the building (eg Ptarmigan Bowl).

It is a total nonsense that families can go up one day and be locked in the Ptarmigan and people not get out to play in the snow, while the next because skiing is taking place they can. This particularly being the case during May and June 2010, when because it was outwith the designated ski season, egress onto the mountain was only permitted when surface uplift was officially open for snowsports at weekends and bank holidays.

Such a scenario infuriated season ticket holders, other skiers and no doubt lots of visitors who couldn't legitimately go outside to have a snowball fight or build a snow man. Such a farce offers no environmental benefits, just commercial damage to an operating company that is still a vital player in the local tourism sector - which of course might be the reason why those who should the loudest to maintain the status quo at every juncture shout as loud as they do?

In reply to JML:

I still don't understand why any sane being ever thought the funicular was a good idea.

If it can't make extra revenue through unrestricted use, is it cheaper to keep it going or to sell it for scrap (Copper and steel are both high!) and reinstate the chairlift?

At least with the chairlift, people were exposed to the elements and this undoubtedly weeded out much of the dross.

All the funicular seems to do is bring up a lot of numpties who get in the way of those of us deserve a piece of cake because we walked up.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Jim I thought you more sensible than that. If the Funicular itself make a loss fair enough but it's wider draw for the tourists supports many jobs in the Strath.

Presumably your last two lines were a joke but if not I reckon this site has more effect in terms of increasing the numpty factor on CairnGorm than any other media including TGO etc.

In reply to JML:
Of course if people did want to scupper the system the the newspaper pice describes how:

“The guides brief participants explaining that failure to remain with the group is not allowed and constitutes a breach of the terms and conditions they have agreed to and explains to them if they do go off we are obliged to report their ‘escape’ as part of our monitoring of the walks to Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH), and that if a large number of people choose to breach their contract with us in this way, it will jeopardize the likelihood of SNH agreeing to permit us to continue running the walks beyond 31 October thus depriving others of enjoying the experience."


Personally I'm not fussed either way.