UKC

I'm sick and tired of people going on about using your feet. Yes it maybe true that you can't think feet enough, but very few people actually say what they mean by it.

Can someone shed any light on this mysterious force?

Cheers

Fex.

PS. I know it has been done to death, but can we get technical in a forum?

In reply to Fex Wazner:

I think it depends on the route but placing them carefully and precisely at the right angle on the best bit of the most appropriate foothold rather than scrabbling around with them while you haul yourself up with your arms is a start.

In reply to MeMeMe: Its how you place your feet that matters, sometimes an inside edge but by using an outside edge you can increase your height and reach further. It so complex and, dare I say it, a natural process - the more you climb the more it will come !

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

Cheers.

I just look at my biceps and blow chalk of my hands at the ladies.

Fex

In reply to Fex Wazner:


I'm looking forward to seeing the responses to this one. I think the point is that there are many ways to use your feet so we should get creative with our foot placements and not just try to edge everything. For example, I really started to get the hang of camming my toes in vertical cracks last year and it got me up a lot of climbs I would have struggled with previously, so now I use it all the time, almost without thinking about it.
There is also a technical aspect to it - if you can't reach the hold then your feet are in the wrong place, if your foot doesn't stick on the hold then your balance is wrong, etc.

In reply to Fex Wazner:

Pushing up with strong bits (legs) instead of pulling up with weak bits (arms).

In reply to Fex Wazner:

its like lots of advice you hear on forums people just repeat it without knowing what they are talking about just because everybody else has said it before when the same questions been asked.

In reply to Fex Wazner:

As I often say to my partner - if you can't reach a handhold, move your feet up first, then you'll get it. Holds above your waist aren't always the key.

In reply to Pierre Maxted:
>I really started to get the hang of camming my toes in vertical cracks

I've started climbing on overhangs now (after climbing on euro limestone for the first time) and have really benefitted from camming my toe against a roof or lip when my heel is placed on a hold a little lower. Feels a lot more secure than a standard heel hook and provides resistance to more directions of pull too..

In reply to Fex Wazner:
Someone once told me that advising a struggling climber to use his feet is like telling a drowning man to use his arms.

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

Oi, McDonald, No! I think you should stick to giving the fat cats some wellie, not giving advice on climbing technique.

In reply to Fex Wazner: Balance starts with your feet and so do the moves. If you're struggling with your handholds it's cos your feet are in the wrong place. Much as you wouldn't dive for a handrail beside a set of stairs don't reach for the handhold, climb towards it. Classicly demonstrated on slabs- if you reach -your smear/sole lifts= less rubber on rock= less friction= fall off. Your brain has learnt to trust the eyes and hands but trust feedback from your feet instead. Simples

In reply to Fex Wazner:

The reason why few people have a clear idea of what footwork means is that it means so many things at once. Broadly speaking it covers:

choosing which footholds to use for each move

choosing which foot to use on each hold

choosing which part(s) of the foot to use on each hold

finding the best orientation and precise placement of each foot

being able to place your feet precisely as needed

distributing your weight optimally between footholds

using handholds & body positioning to place as much weight as possible on your feet

knowing when feet are useless and just thugging it!

Thinking carefully about particular moves helps a lot. Experience and practice helps much more. Telling someone to 'use their feet', especially when they are already struggling, may be about the most unhelpful advice you could give.

In reply to john arran: Almost the complete list

I would add one bullet - applying experience to be able to judge how much force can be applied on a marginal foot placement.

Cheers
LD

In reply to john arran:

• actually standing up on higher footholds once you have moved your feet onto them - my son often seems to forget to perform this action, even when I say to him "now just stand up"

In reply to AlanLittle:
"now just stand up"

I got told this after putting my left foot on a HUGE foot hold with my right foot flagging out. I didn't have the power in my left leg to stand. I felt so feeble!!!

In reply to cha1n:


Like this .. ?

http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/tech_tips_technique_-_the_heel-toe_c...

In reply to john arran:

No, that would be telling them to "just use the holds" !

What it generally means to me is that if you can't reach the next hold, the solution is very often to move your feet up. There's always a tendency to become focused on what your arms are doing, constantly looking upwards cos that the direction you want to go in, rather than looking at your feet. I think Adrian describes this as "front wheel drive" in his coaching.

And whilst it's most obvious in beginners, I'm sure most of us get tunnel vision when at our limits and sometimes forget the basics. On a hard (for me) onsight last year, I was quite grateful for the reminder from my wife to "use your feet" as I was on the crux.

Mind you, I do shout it at her quite a lot, so maybe she just wanted revenge !

In reply to Fex Wazner:

Choosing where you want to put your foot for best effect and putting it straight there.

The key is to look at your intended foothold when placing your foot, rather than looking up or at some bird or something.

In reply to john arran:



What he says, use hands to balance and feet to push up

In reply to Fex Wazner: It means doing whatever is necessary with your feet to avoid having all of your weight on your arms.

Al

In reply to Fex Wazner:

I would say that it means climbing with as little use of your arm muscles as possible by using your legs (including hips, knees and feet) to take more of your weight.

This could be fancy stuff like heel hooks, toe hooks, knee bars, foot swapping and egyptians or just subtle changes in position so that you can keep your arms straighter.

For example, sometimes a poor foothold in the right place can make your rest / next move a lot easier than a big foot hold in the wrong place.

In reply to john arran:

Good list, a few additions:

Foot holds can be anywhere even above your head.
Feet can pull as well as push.
Feet can counterbalance and help movement when there is no contact.
Flagging a foot on a wall withno hold can often be a massive help.
Marginal footholds work better if you move quickly on them and in the same sense footholds that won't hold your weight may help a bit for a short time.

In reply to Fex Wazner: Using your feet means using your head actually!
It is when you stop thinking that reliance on hauling yourself up with arms takes over.

In reply to Fex Wazner:

It might be time to take up another pastime if you don't understand this........

In reply to Fex Wazner:


Usually: Calm down, stop kicking and start thinking about what you're doing

Feet are rather useful and the ways they can be used myriad but it boils down to four basic actions, some of which are combined into more complex/subtle maneuvers:

* Pushing with them
* Pulling with them
* Counterbalancing with them
* Occasionally torquing about them

jk

In reply to Offwidth:
"in the Same sense footholds that won't hold your weight may help a bit for a short time."
Surely any foothold will hold your weight? You just have to learn to use it.
Didn't Dawes once say that "anything on grit is a foothold"?
James

In reply to Fex Wazner:


If you still don't believe in it, watch some climbers climbing. Stare round the climbing wall / crag. Some punters dangle off their arms and pull, and some place their feet and step up, i.e. 'using their feet.'
Actually, all probably do both, sometimes.

Doing this can get you higher on order to get you better handholds.

In reply to various, but mainly the OP:

Note that downclimbing is good training for footwork. Normally your arms "lead" and for many the feet just follow.

Reversing this and downclimbing means you get used to thinking about your feet much more.

In reply to Pierre Maxted:

That's the one. As the article states you don't only have to heel-toe cam on big holds, I use them all the time to take weight off of my week arms/fingers. I've used technique to get me by up into the high 6's and low 7's but it's getting harder now - I think I need strength and endurance. How inconvenient!

In reply to Fex Wazner:

Putting your foot on anything at all, pretty drastically reduces the work required by your fingers, hands, arms.

I always say when instructing or advising someone, that whenever climbing feels like it's getting too hard, look down, not up.

That seems to work out well, because most people's (humans) natural climbing state is to focus on hauling with the hands and anything you can do to counter that instinct is worthwhile trying

Most climbers rely on the suitability and security of handholds through difficult sections of climbing and I think what seperates harder climbers, is their ability to move through difficult ground temporarily placing most reliance on footholds.
That's certainly the way it's gone for me as things get harder as well.

I think hard sport climbing helps teach this stuff, but i've never been interested long enough to find out for sure!

In reply to Fex Wazner:

My footwork, and therefore my technique overall, is pretty substandard even for the meagre grade at which I climb. I've always been aware of this but have put off making a real effort to 'work the weakness', relying instead on determination, on 'wanting it enough'. Then, whilst climbing in Scotland a few weeks ago I really struggled to lead the wet chimney / groove on the 5a second picth of Yo-Yo on Anoch Dubh - thrusting and twisting, thrutching, grunting and on two occasions almost coming off (or rather out). Finally making it, I was exhausted and slightly dejected at almost being defeated at a grade I considered to be within my comfort zone.

Then my mate, much more experienced then I, seconded it with a grace and sense of calm that completely blew me away. Watching him walzt up it I noticed he moved his feet three times for every time he moved his hands. Now thats one of my resolutions, ATLEAST one foot movement for each hand movement and more if I can.

Its difficult to make the conscious effort, especially when getting pumped and all I can think of is how the next hold looks like it could be a jug. But I'm finding that if I can hold it togethor and take my time with my feet I actually climb faster and reach the next rest calmer and in a better position to make the most of it. Its even harder indoors, when the number of foot placements is obviously limited, but here I try to adjust my foot position on the placement between standing up on it and reaching for the next hold: toe to outside edge, inside edge to heal etc. Whatever helps me balance and slows my movements down, making them more fluid and less dynamic.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


Agreed, but something I've noticed watching different people within my climbing peer group is that there is a big difference between 'Putting your foot' on a hold and actually USING a foothold.

One friend was particularly guilty of this, almost precisely the same height/build as me, he would put his feet on all the same things, in the same way - yet still appeared to be hauling himself along with his arms.

I think it comes down a lot to actually 'engaging' a foothold which requires active use of the foot, shin, thigh and core...

In reply to John_Hat:

Yes. For a start it makes you look down at your feet. It's surprising how rarely beginners look at the footholds.

For the more experienced, it's worth trying to get the precise, controlled placement that marks out out someone climbing with style and economy, rather than just slamming your foot vaguely onto something you saw out of the corner of your eye. Moving your foot precisely requires you to be well balanced on your other points of contact, which requires your other foot to be correctly positioned.

In reply to Fex Wazner:
people could also say it so that they have hinted at the answer, but not given it

i dont like telling my gf how to get past a crux move for example, as that would means shes a good climber when following instructions but hasnt thought about it herself. where as if i say "move you feet" she will go "right, maybe i need ot move my feet somewhere, where? how?" and solve the problem herself

In reply to James Oswald:

Your missing a point which with due irony was made by Dawes.

In reply to Fex Wazner:

Rock jedi say:

'Think not how to attain handhold with hand but how to put foot on foothold...the rest will follow...maybe'

In reply to Fex Wazner:

When I did my skydiving course, one of the instructors said to us 'you'll all steer by looking at your hands. Until you've logged about a hundred and fifty jumps you're dead from the waist down' The same seems to be true of climbing. You can get so far with thuggery, but learning to flag, underflag, inside and outside edge, smear and foot jam are what will take you up the grades far more than arm and finger strength.

In reply to Offwidth:

Using footholds in sequence is just as important as using handholds in sequence.

Worth identifying and remembering potential footholds when they are at eye level, rather than knee level.

A good handhold might not be a good foothold and vice versa