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Got this the other day and it gets the thumbs up from me. Good clear topos, the useful addition of approach thumbnails, route recommendations - bit like they do in the BMC guides - some good photography, a new look history section and the return of the star system.
So why the very average cover pic? After the shocking reproduction of the 2000 guide, I was sort of hoping this cover would want to make a bit of a statement in terms of photographic merit, and be up there with the '83 and '89 cover shots. Unfortunately, not. It's a brilliant route, but a somewhat uninspiring effort that once again gives us the same old view of the cliffs, that all too familiar slither of the A498 and Eric's in the background. Then there's the fact that the climber's a bit too close to the title and you'd love to see just a little bit more of the concentration on his face..
There's an abundance of great photography out there. This, which actually appears in the guide:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=87919
A fresh perspective on Bwlch y Moch, atmospheric and totally inspiring.
Or Jack Geldard's brilliant Dream Toppingesque shot of Pete Robins on Psyche n Burn:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=77129
I was looking through a few old guides last night and came across one of my all time favourites.
Johnny Dawes on Sad Amongst Friends, Stanage, 1989. This is how a cover should be. It doesn't matter that I'll never get anywhere near doing the route. It just happens to be a brilliant piece of photography.
So why the very average cover pic? After the shocking reproduction of the 2000 guide, I was sort of hoping this cover would want to make a bit of a statement in terms of photographic merit, and be up there with the '83 and '89 cover shots. Unfortunately, not. It's a brilliant route, but a somewhat uninspiring effort that once again gives us the same old view of the cliffs, that all too familiar slither of the A498 and Eric's in the background. Then there's the fact that the climber's a bit too close to the title and you'd love to see just a little bit more of the concentration on his face..
There's an abundance of great photography out there. This, which actually appears in the guide:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=87919
A fresh perspective on Bwlch y Moch, atmospheric and totally inspiring.
Or Jack Geldard's brilliant Dream Toppingesque shot of Pete Robins on Psyche n Burn:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=77129
I was looking through a few old guides last night and came across one of my all time favourites.
Johnny Dawes on Sad Amongst Friends, Stanage, 1989. This is how a cover should be. It doesn't matter that I'll never get anywhere near doing the route. It just happens to be a brilliant piece of photography.
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Interesting that there is both a recommended list *and* the star system. The recommended list was how things used to be done prior to the introduction of stars - have a look at the old (and I mean old, like early 1970s) FRCC guides as an example.
Cover shots? There are publishing restrictions on what can be used - text has to be clear so those parts of the shot have to be blank, or at least not be distracting.
ALC
Interesting that there is both a recommended list *and* the star system. The recommended list was how things used to be done prior to the introduction of stars - have a look at the old (and I mean old, like early 1970s) FRCC guides as an example.
Cover shots? There are publishing restrictions on what can be used - text has to be clear so those parts of the shot have to be blank, or at least not be distracting.
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber: I didn't know that recommended lists preceded the star system. That's interesting.
The recommended lists in the new Tremadog guide take the form of 'favourites' from locals and activists. Some well-known routes, some not. The first time I saw this was in the new BMC guides to the Peak. Anything that gets climbers on to routes they might normally walk straight past in favour of doing the polished classics is a good idea in my book.
The recommended lists in the new Tremadog guide take the form of 'favourites' from locals and activists. Some well-known routes, some not. The first time I saw this was in the new BMC guides to the Peak. Anything that gets climbers on to routes they might normally walk straight past in favour of doing the polished classics is a good idea in my book.
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Yes, locals might know of 'esoteric jems' such as, er, Alcatraz or Steelfingers.
I'm glad to see the return of quality stars.
All this nonsense about polish is, er, nonsense. Will the polish disappear if the *** routes are no longer highlighted? Rather doubtful.
A guidebook without stars will always look boring.
Yes, locals might know of 'esoteric jems' such as, er, Alcatraz or Steelfingers.
I'm glad to see the return of quality stars.
All this nonsense about polish is, er, nonsense. Will the polish disappear if the *** routes are no longer highlighted? Rather doubtful.
A guidebook without stars will always look boring.
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
Not only that, but the lack of stars probably had the opposite to the desired effect - what routes did everyone do? The classics of Christmas curry, Valerie's rib, one step etc. People gravitated to the routes they had heard of and had been recommended, rather than having some extra information on which to base a value judgement.
Not only that, but the lack of stars probably had the opposite to the desired effect - what routes did everyone do? The classics of Christmas curry, Valerie's rib, one step etc. People gravitated to the routes they had heard of and had been recommended, rather than having some extra information on which to base a value judgement.
In reply to Gavin McGrath: I think the new tremdog guide is excellent and well needed. Bringing back the stars is a good idea... for example I climbed the quakermen last weekend an awesome 2* E2 which i have overlooked before due to its lack of stars and the fact that I hadn't heard of anyone doing it. New descriptions, topos etc will help people find neglected routes more easily. Front cover shot isn't amazing but i like the fact that it has erics cafe in it - kinda sums up tremdaog climbing for me.
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Slightly different format, there was just one list per guidebook. From memory as I haven't the guides to hand, Langale had around a dozen "recommended routes" which just happened to become the 3 star routes in the first edition to use the star system. Obviously there were a lot fewer routes then.
I think that the star system is becoming devalued in some areas - see the Castleberg thread - and that a lot of star allocation is as case of "The Emperor's new clothes". No denying that there are a lot of good routes at Tremadog though.
ALC
Slightly different format, there was just one list per guidebook. From memory as I haven't the guides to hand, Langale had around a dozen "recommended routes" which just happened to become the 3 star routes in the first edition to use the star system. Obviously there were a lot fewer routes then.
I think that the star system is becoming devalued in some areas - see the Castleberg thread - and that a lot of star allocation is as case of "The Emperor's new clothes". No denying that there are a lot of good routes at Tremadog though.
ALC
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Personally I prefer the cover shot they've chosen (regardless of the limitations imposed by having to fit on the title etc).
And I like the fact that it's a route that most people stand at least a vague chance of climbing one day; a picture of an E-several may look impressive, but it doesn't make you think "what route is that? I'd like to try it".
Personally I prefer the cover shot they've chosen (regardless of the limitations imposed by having to fit on the title etc).
And I like the fact that it's a route that most people stand at least a vague chance of climbing one day; a picture of an E-several may look impressive, but it doesn't make you think "what route is that? I'd like to try it".
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Got this earlier in the week, looks great!
Am reading the History section at the moment (using it to pass the time on the train), but have had a quick leaf through the routes and the photo's, star ratings etc are (to me), a massive improvement on the old guide.
Can't wait to get back there now.
Oh, and they've upgraded a VS I did to HVS - so that's another bonus!
Well done to the team responsible.
Si
Got this earlier in the week, looks great!
Am reading the History section at the moment (using it to pass the time on the train), but have had a quick leaf through the routes and the photo's, star ratings etc are (to me), a massive improvement on the old guide.
Can't wait to get back there now.
Oh, and they've upgraded a VS I did to HVS - so that's another bonus!
Well done to the team responsible.
Si
In reply to SCC:
I noticed a few grade changes:
Ravens nest wall down to E1
Chwys(sp?) up again to E2
Gwaed up to E1
bottom corner crack on the Plum now E2 5c in it's own right
Salamanda up to E1
All seem about right and the guidebook looks excellent
I noticed a few grade changes:
Ravens nest wall down to E1
Chwys(sp?) up again to E2
Gwaed up to E1
bottom corner crack on the Plum now E2 5c in it's own right
Salamanda up to E1
All seem about right and the guidebook looks excellent
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Great Tremadog guide! Been going there over 30 years, and I've never managed to see half the bits of rock it's got photos of. Lots of inspiration for getting off the beaten track (although it will probably result in tracks getting beaten - not necessarily a bad thing!)
Cheers
Andy
> (In reply to Gavin McGrath)
>
>
> Cover shots? There are publishing restrictions on what can be used - text has to be clear so those parts of the shot have to be blank, or at least not be distracting.
>
Never forgetting the legendary "rkshi mesto" guide of course!>
>
> Cover shots? There are publishing restrictions on what can be used - text has to be clear so those parts of the shot have to be blank, or at least not be distracting.
>
Great Tremadog guide! Been going there over 30 years, and I've never managed to see half the bits of rock it's got photos of. Lots of inspiration for getting off the beaten track (although it will probably result in tracks getting beaten - not necessarily a bad thing!)
Cheers
Andy
In reply to Dave Rumney (Chester MC): shame they didn't upgrade falco to E2, and maybe downgrade merlin direct to VS. I think to get E2 for the plum you need to climb the roof crack after the initial crack
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
what route is this?
> There's an abundance of great photography out there. This, which actually appears in the guide:
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=87919
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=87919
what route is this?
In reply to Dan_Carroll: Nimbus, photo by Alex Messenger
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
Fantastic guide, think it's a real improvement on the previous ones.
Love the frontpiece too
Fantastic guide, think it's a real improvement on the previous ones.
Love the frontpiece too
I like the cover shot, after all it's of me.
I can see where people are coming from with criticism; it's not the most action packed shot is it. But I do genuinely think it's very Tremadog.
If you're interested, that ascent was quite important to me. I seconded it very early in my climbing career and fell off the start of the 2nd pitch. It became a bogey route for me and I left it alone but finally led it with a very good friend on the day you see and it just happened that Don abbed down next to me to take some shots.
So personally I love the shot, and I didn't know it was going to be in the guide (let alone on the front) until I saw it last Friday. So I suppose I can see where people are coming from but I still like it both from my own perspective and as a lover of Tremadog. Whilst to some the Fang is an easy route, I think to many it isn't and is still arpirational to many. As a v average climber, I'd ask people not to be too elitest.
I think the guide is a huge improvement and what Tremadog deserves.
I can see where people are coming from with criticism; it's not the most action packed shot is it. But I do genuinely think it's very Tremadog.
If you're interested, that ascent was quite important to me. I seconded it very early in my climbing career and fell off the start of the 2nd pitch. It became a bogey route for me and I left it alone but finally led it with a very good friend on the day you see and it just happened that Don abbed down next to me to take some shots.
So personally I love the shot, and I didn't know it was going to be in the guide (let alone on the front) until I saw it last Friday. So I suppose I can see where people are coming from but I still like it both from my own perspective and as a lover of Tremadog. Whilst to some the Fang is an easy route, I think to many it isn't and is still arpirational to many. As a v average climber, I'd ask people not to be too elitest.
I think the guide is a huge improvement and what Tremadog deserves.
In reply to Dan_Carroll: According to the guidebook, Nimbus. Though a mate of mine reckons it's Vector...
In reply to JonC: Hi Jon, Well done getting back on the route, and succeeding. I know that I would be well chuffed to have my photograph on the cover of a guidebook!
I was not in any way denouncing the standard of the route. The Fang is an excellent climb, and is amongst some of the best I've climbed at Tremadog, irrespective of grade. I'm a mid-grade climber myself, so I hope that I do not come across as being elitist.
I'm an art director, and so I do have strong feelings when it comes to the quality of photography and design. Just my opinion, of course.
Definitely agree that the guide is a huge improvement, and I can't wait to get back over there.
Good to hear from the man on the cover.
I was not in any way denouncing the standard of the route. The Fang is an excellent climb, and is amongst some of the best I've climbed at Tremadog, irrespective of grade. I'm a mid-grade climber myself, so I hope that I do not come across as being elitist.
I'm an art director, and so I do have strong feelings when it comes to the quality of photography and design. Just my opinion, of course.
Definitely agree that the guide is a huge improvement, and I can't wait to get back over there.
Good to hear from the man on the cover.
In reply to andi turner: "Rainshadow". Classic.
In reply to Rory Shaw:
If Falcon was worth E2, Vulcan would have to be E5.
> (In reply to Dave Rumney (Chester MC)) shame they didn't upgrade falco to E2, and maybe downgrade merlin direct to VS. I think to get E2 for the plum you need to climb the roof crack after the initial crack
If Falcon was worth E2, Vulcan would have to be E5.
In reply to Gavin McGrath: Exellent guidebok, can't quibble at most of thr grades. Falcon is top end E2 in my opinion. Not so sure about Duncan bournes 'beano' style cartoons.They look a bit dated.
In reply to Dave Rumney (Chester MC): Dave, Raven's Nest Wall is downgraded because we switched the pitches with Gothic Grooves to make more consistent lines and grades. The previous first pitch of Raven's Nest Wall, now Gothic Grooves, is E2 still.
I think Chwys is soft touch at E2 because there are good runners out to the right of the piton. When the peg snaps though it will be E2, so we upgraded it on that basis (who knows, it may snap on the next fall!)
I think Chwys is soft touch at E2 because there are good runners out to the right of the piton. When the peg snaps though it will be E2, so we upgraded it on that basis (who knows, it may snap on the next fall!)
In reply to Rory Shaw: We have now put a voting system on the CC website, so you can influence the grade in the next edition! I was strongly inclined to upgrade Falcon because of the loose fangs on the intro wall, however it eases off after that so in the end we went for top end E1. Merlin Direct is VS climbing but needs a steady approach, there is the odd block that needs care and the final wall is intimidating. For an HVS climber though the pitch is soft touch - doubt if many will complain though!
In reply to Rory Shaw: Hi Rory, Thanks go to Al Leary for alerting us to how brilliant the Quakerman is. If you haven't done the Harvey Proctor finish go back and do that as well. It's great fun!
Persoonally I think the main problem with the new cover is its quite similar in colour and design to the previous one. The good news is that we can focus on getting a better portfolio of action shots together for the next edition now, because we've got the topos sorted.
Persoonally I think the main problem with the new cover is its quite similar in colour and design to the previous one. The good news is that we can focus on getting a better portfolio of action shots together for the next edition now, because we've got the topos sorted.
In reply to Steve Long:
I'm impressed that you are already thinking about the next edition, Steve, when all the hard work on the new one has only just borne fruit!
But I do agree. Not for the first time, a Tremadog guidebook has been rather let down by a distinctly average set of action shots.
The fact the photo-topos are so exceptional possibly highlights this too?
But all in all this guidebook is a big step forward. I had heard many tales and rumours about the new CC design which was due to be launched with Tremadog, and to be honest, I had been led to expect something even more radical.
But I'm not disappointed. I think the new design looks excellent. It has achieved a freshness and modern feel, without abandoning successful elements from the previous house-style just for the sake of it.
And if we remember that the raison d'etre for any guidebook is allow the user to find the routes, armed with this set of photo-topos, a newcomer to Tremadog will undoubtedly stand a much better chance than his predecessor.
Neil
> The good news is that we can focus on getting a better portfolio of action shots together for the next edition now, because we've got the topos sorted.
I'm impressed that you are already thinking about the next edition, Steve, when all the hard work on the new one has only just borne fruit!
But I do agree. Not for the first time, a Tremadog guidebook has been rather let down by a distinctly average set of action shots.
The fact the photo-topos are so exceptional possibly highlights this too?
But all in all this guidebook is a big step forward. I had heard many tales and rumours about the new CC design which was due to be launched with Tremadog, and to be honest, I had been led to expect something even more radical.
But I'm not disappointed. I think the new design looks excellent. It has achieved a freshness and modern feel, without abandoning successful elements from the previous house-style just for the sake of it.
And if we remember that the raison d'etre for any guidebook is allow the user to find the routes, armed with this set of photo-topos, a newcomer to Tremadog will undoubtedly stand a much better chance than his predecessor.
Neil
In reply to Gavin McGrath: the cover shot is nice but not inspiring. i know theres maybe a need to represent both camps (inspiring and attainable) but surely most people, even if they cant get up the route, want the inspiring?
also, why oh why is the shot nigh on identical to the CC's new Ogwen cover? i thought that was particularly lame.
havent used the guide in anger (i shy away from Tremadog because i get a bit found out there) but the contents look superb and enough to force me to start getting to grips with the place a bit more...
also, why oh why is the shot nigh on identical to the CC's new Ogwen cover? i thought that was particularly lame.
havent used the guide in anger (i shy away from Tremadog because i get a bit found out there) but the contents look superb and enough to force me to start getting to grips with the place a bit more...
In reply to Rory Shaw: i think Falcon is E2 in the 2nd edition of North Wales Rock, seems fair at E2 given others aorund. E1 or 2 its immense!
In reply to JonC: no offence to you in my comments above - some of my favourite climbing photos are pretty average in terms of the actual photo but they mean a lot to me personally.
i think youd need to be fairly unappreciative of quality if you didnt rate The Fang, regardless what grade you climb at, its top class and the two pitches contrast so well. i remember vividly Jackdaws playing on branches to my left as i struggled with the upper slab, brilliant!
i think youd need to be fairly unappreciative of quality if you didnt rate The Fang, regardless what grade you climb at, its top class and the two pitches contrast so well. i remember vividly Jackdaws playing on branches to my left as i struggled with the upper slab, brilliant!
In reply to Dave Rumney (Chester MC): I worked my wat thru a few of these recently, including actually finding salamanda which I had failed to find with the old guide. found extraction really hard is this top of the grade for tremadog or am i just weak?
In reply to alasdair19: If Extraction is the E2 5c to the right of the Fang I agree, it's hard. I failed on it many years ago despite having done just about every other E2 at Tremadoc. I've not done it to this day so I need to get back down there.
Al
Al
In reply to Gavin McGrath:
I did Falcon the other day, thinking it was an E1 'warm-up'. After sweating my way to the top with several 'interesting' moments, I would put it comfortably in the E2 bracket! (Although I confess that I never climb particularly well at Tremadog, which might have something to do with it)
I did Falcon the other day, thinking it was an E1 'warm-up'. After sweating my way to the top with several 'interesting' moments, I would put it comfortably in the E2 bracket! (Although I confess that I never climb particularly well at Tremadog, which might have something to do with it)
In reply to Neil Foster: Hi Neil, I guess radical is in the eye of the beholder! For me the radical bits are the "engine" that drives the production; behind the scenes we now have a database linking all the routes to Google mapping, badly vegetated routes are described online rather than on paper, and at last a system for collecting feedback about the grades and stars. So for example all you people who think Falcon is E2 get a chance to outvote the people who told be to keep it at E1!!! Getting the first ascent details put against the route description took some negotiating. Next time I want it in a legible font!
The actual guide is not ground-breaking, its just a nice tool to get you to the routes and reduce sandbagging. For the next edition we will be able to focus on the action shots! However, the 2010 edition should work for quite a few years, although the developments at Moel y Gest may continue to put it out of date more quickly...
The actual guide is not ground-breaking, its just a nice tool to get you to the routes and reduce sandbagging. For the next edition we will be able to focus on the action shots! However, the 2010 edition should work for quite a few years, although the developments at Moel y Gest may continue to put it out of date more quickly...
In reply to Steve Long:
Hi Steve
Good effort on the database.
It might be a good idea to add a route name search ability to the main page. It took me 5 clicks to get to Falcon and this required me knowing which buttress it was on (actually I guessed which buttress it was on since I couldn't remember). The map method takes loads more clicks.
A search box where I could type 'Falcon' could make it a lot quicker.
Hi Steve
Good effort on the database.
It might be a good idea to add a route name search ability to the main page. It took me 5 clicks to get to Falcon and this required me knowing which buttress it was on (actually I guessed which buttress it was on since I couldn't remember). The map method takes loads more clicks.
A search box where I could type 'Falcon' could make it a lot quicker.
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Your wish is my command!
In reply to Steve Long: A really excellent guide, many thanks - but you mentioned Moel y Gest. No problems with finding routes there apart from Foremast Buttress. Did you ever find it and climb on it ? Map ref is wrong and with no picture, it is a problem. Routes are very disappointing when you do find them and can't see how on earth 3 out of 5 get a star. Not worth visiting compared with other buttresses.
In reply to Steve Long: Outstanding guide and quite inspired to use the best bits form others guide books and some new page displays (favorites lists, captioned histories etc).
The history section alone is a very interesting read and that lay out really brings it to life.
Like the outlaying areas info as well.
Only problem I have found is that the print seems to smear quite easily if wet, may be due to glossy pages etc not sure.
Otherwise two thumbs up.
The history section alone is a very interesting read and that lay out really brings it to life.
Like the outlaying areas info as well.
Only problem I have found is that the print seems to smear quite easily if wet, may be due to glossy pages etc not sure.
Otherwise two thumbs up.
In reply to Sterling:
What about mistakes in the guide? How do we get them corrected ?
What about mistakes in the guide? How do we get them corrected ?
In reply to Sterling:
Nice one! Much quicker to locate individual routes.
Alan
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC) Your wish is my command!
Nice one! Much quicker to locate individual routes.
Alan
In reply to Pencarth: Are you a CC member? If so you can logon to the CC Routes Database ( http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/eshop/guidebook-routes-database.php ) and comment on individual routes. If you are not a member, you can submit comments - a form, or email contact details, are also on the CC website.
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