UKC

last monday (6.12.10) I climbed back tor face, a direct line about 20 or 30 feet right of the gully. just where it steepens, some pillock has scratched into the rock "S+D Nov 2010" this was in a location only accesible to a climber. perhaps they thought "oh, it's only back tor" or maybe due to winter conditions the black marker-pen didn't work..

anyone know who it is? (or owning up? cos there's a suspicious -possibly incriminating - photo of the correct vintage and initials to be found elsewhere on UKC)

In reply to nickcanute:
Whoops, that photo didn't take long to find!!

In reply to nickcanute:
Sharma and Dunne ?

In reply to thin bob:

Sub & Dom?

In reply to Profanisaurus Rex:

SCalum and Dhis belayer?

In reply to Niall:

Classic!! LoL!!

In reply to liz j:

and if that is the culprit there's another picture captioned "taken same day as the fools with tools incident at millstone".. pot and kettle

In reply to liz j: give us a clue

In reply to eschaton:

Yes please! Give us a link!

Tim

In reply to Green Porridge: just search back tor in the photo section, think that will show you the culprits

In reply to stella1:

Thanks!

In reply to stella1:

See if that was my photo and it was a genuine coincidence (which is still possible), I wouldn't be very happy about the direction this thread's taking!

In reply to petestack:

Theres plently of examples of names scrathed into rock and pretty much every crag, you can freeze these places in time - things have to evolve.

Take a break!

In reply to major stabby:

No idea what you mean by that...


And don't think I'm needing a break. Just suggesting that linking/naming might be premature here.

In reply to petestack: Fair enough, i would be happy to apologise if it turns out to be someone else, but simple probability points towards them being the culprits. both initials and timing of the photo.
BTW i was out on back tor on tuesday and had a great day and would have been a bit disappointed to find recent graffiti obviously done by climbers

In reply to major stabby:

Ha! Yes, because the climbing community frowning upon vandalism of the rock is really what's holding us all back...

Pete.

i feel angry when climbers behave like this. it was very obtrusive. i noticed it immediately, left of the line i was climbing. next to the graffiti was a small piece of tat left lying on a ledge as well. maybe the graffiti was as if to mark a high point.. perhaps they bailed, i didn't see signs of climbing higher than this tho they may have moved left then up, whereas i went slightly right

In reply to nickcanute: i noticed a similar engraving at the top of goliaths grooves today (this may have been there sometime but looked recent). whilst it would appear this was a memorium and i in no means wish to insult the memory of the individual i dont think theres any place for the "tagging" of rocks in celebration or memorium , climbers or not . a close friend of mine's, ashes were scattered at an area in the peak he loved. surely the area itself should act as a fitting memorial.

In reply to nickcanute:

FWIW, it's not so much your slightly oblique reference to the photo that bothers me as the later inclusion (not yours) of a full-blown link to it. So, while I don't think your question re. the photo is unreasonable, I simply think this particular S + D should be given a chance to respond before things escalate into a premature public witch hunt with premature (and possibly incorrect) naming of the 'perpetrators'.

In reply to nickcanute:

Just out of interest have you tried contacting (e.g. e-mail) either of the climbers that you're linking to the graffiti? If so, what did they say? If not, why not?

Dave

In reply to nickcanute: I'd be interested to hear if you had heard back?

In reply to nickcanute: Has anyone seen the graffiti Callum has now left on flying buttress?

In reply to nickcanute:

Hi All, a friend has just told me to look at this developing thread.
Seems like a 'UKC forum conviction'.

Yes we did climb the shaley face of Back Tor, I've posted a pic, I've also posted to say I've lost a cam and wires http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=435505 . My partners name was Dean. S + D. We did it on Monday 29th Nov. So there seems to be quite a lot of circumstantial evidence.
However, as regards scratching the rock the only marks we made were unintentional ones of crampons and axes on the mixed moves. Neither of us saw (it was 10pm and snowing hard) or made any graffitti.

Perhaps I should start advertising for mountaineering instructor work with marker pen or spray paint on the crags too, or just dry tool Goliaths Groove on Stanage and then post some pics on here!!!!

In reply to si cooke:

That's particularly bad form on your part, you're supposed to let a thread like this run to at least two hundred posts before denying responsibility!

In reply to EddInaBox:

Too late - I've already journeyed there from a holiday in Spain to sandblast the initials

In reply to si cooke: Dear God, what a pain in the a*rse. There are now 3 possibilities:

1) You're lying,
2) The OP was making it up, presumably to incriminate you (do you know him?)
3) A party with the same initials did the route at more or less the same time and did the deed.

3) Seems highly improbable; so somebody is being a pillock. What is wrong with people?

In reply to si cooke:

Unfortunately does!


Glad to hear it (just doesn't sound like the sort of thing an AMI member would do!).

In reply to si cooke:
The circumstantial evidence is pretty weak really.

Reasons you are clearly innocent:
i) You posted photos of yourself on the route, with date. Hardly the action of someone with something to hide.
ii) S and D must surely have a lurve thing going on. Who'd scratch their initials like that when climbing with a mate?!
iii) This route is clearly currently getting a fair bit of traffic, so the circumstantial evidence is weaker than it might at first seem. Neither S nor D is an unusual initial, every other climber is called Dave, after all, and there are millions of Simons, millions of Steves.

In reply to nickcanute:

I love that this is being taken so seriously....
'He's lying'
'no, *he's* lying'
'actually I think you find *HE* is the liar.'

Jipes.

In reply to nickcanute:
I can't think why anybody would do this. Ice tools are expensive and besides, a hammer and small cole chisel would do a much better/neater job.

In reply to confusicating: Why wouldn't it be? Is carving initials on rock OK then?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

No no, I'm not saying that. But this thread is like a flipping, I don't know the term.

An accusation, trial, and conviction all in one thread.

In reply to confusicating:

Kangaroo court?

In reply to petestack:

Yeah, that's it. Thanks.

In reply to si cooke:
Sorry for posting the link to your picture. If you say you didn't do it, then i apologise. i can't find a way to delete it. at the time it just seemed like all the evidence pointed your way.

seemed a bit like the Case of the Bloody Knife. A man was found next to a murdered body. He had the knife in his hand. 13 witnesses had seen him stab the victim. And when the police arrived, he said "I'm glad I killed the bastard."

a man was found to have climbed back tor with his tools in his hand, his initials matched those of the perpetrators, the dates matched...

In reply to nickcanute:
is there any chance the D was actually an O?

In reply to nickcanute: the face is a crumbling mass of rock and grass. Just relax and chill out. The scratched block will be gone by next year. There are worse things in the world to worry about. The ukc outrage police should be ignored!

In reply to John ramsay:

Here here.

>the face is a crumbling mass of rock and grass. Just relax and chill out. The scratched block will be gone by next year. There are worse things in the world to worry about. The ukc outrage police should be ignored!

no. the block won't have gone by next year, it's not a block but a huge embedded rock band. and this graffiti isn't superficial scratching, it will be there next year as well.

sure there are worse things in the world to worry about.. i'm not worried, i just think that its peurile that some climbers have done this, its an eye-sore, and litter was left as well (tat on a grassy ledge nearby).

i would expect that most climbers would be less blase in reaction to seeing this graffiti than your suggested attitude of "just ignore it". and if whoever did it has read this thread then hopefully they won't do it again. i think that your comment that the outrage police should be ignored is stupid - and you were unable to follow your own guidelines weren't you?

In reply to nickcanute:
But maybe you still owe an apology to Simon and Dean?

In reply to nickcanute:

A more thoughtful response now I haven’t got a three year old sitting on my knee trying to hit the return key.

I agree with the sentiment of raising awareness of the crag environment and damage caused by users. I think it is good that the issues are raised in public and the ethics debated. Indeed the recent dry tooling at Millstone has heightened sensitivities to the damage of the crag environment and has forced a timely debate about ethics and style. So thanks for posting to raise our awareness of some graffiti you’ve seen on a crag. I would guess it will make those who feel the need to graffiti more likely to think again.

I do have an issue with the manner that it was assumed that pictures posted on UKC were a comprehensive record of the ascents of the route. There is much that happens in the outdoors that isn’t recorded on UKC. Indeed my partner on that route has no UKC profile. Also an issue are assumptions made by a number of posters in a seemingly frenzied period from 11pm on Friday to 11pm on Saturday . So by the time a friend e-mailed on Sunday it felt that the ‘UKC Forum Court’ had delivered its verdict. I guess this is the world of the ‘forum’ and I shouldn’t be surprised.

Some background - Both Dean and I are climbers in their 40s with young families. We have enjoyed the outdoors and climbing, in particular, for over 25 years each. A window into this might have been glimpsed from my profile. We have enjoyed some magical, wild and unspoilt places around the globe as a result of our climbing. We don’t feel the need to mark our passing.
As part of my work as a mountaineering instructor I teach school pupils about the outdoors and respect for the environment. We regularly bring back litter from local Peak District crags; a week ago after digging snow holes we detoured to Millstone to watch John Roberts and Alex Messenger on Embankment 2 and discuss the state of the cracks; I have carried ballast up to the Pebble to help repair the erosion under Deliverance; from the summit shelter on Ben Nevis, I have persuaded a bunch of 16 year olds that they should fill their nice light sacks with rotting clothing, food etc for the 3hr walk down – we removed about 30kg of sh*te. You get the picture – the outdoor environment is a big and important part of my life.

While none of this proves anything, because Dean and I are human beings and like you, we are capable of making mistakes too. However, we didn’t make a mistake on Monday 29th November.

In reply to si cooke:

It's ridiculous you've been forced to expend so much effort on this. I think a request to Alan to pull the thread would be the best option, since so much of it is spent blackening yours and your partner's names. If the OP wants to restart the discussion in a different form, it could proceed without the 'forum court' in session, hopefully.

In reply to nickcanute:
I hope this puts the matter to bed.

All very well casting the blame by leading comments on a public forum. However, I trust you'll be apologising to Simon and Dean on the same public forum.

In reply to si cooke:

...except (rather expensively!) this one: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=435505

In reply to nickcanute: Jesus H Christ! Can people not chill a bit? The Millstone thread was fair enough if slightly long, but this is ridiculous! Back Tor is a grotty, chossy, vegetated crag. If you can read some small scratches on the rock, it is a sign that the crag not in nick for winter climbing so YOU shouldn't even BE there.

I doubt anyone who sees the mark will give a flying fig. It doesn't matter.

In reply to si cooke: Well done, A measured response in the circumstances. I think several apologies are due to you.

In reply to si cooke:

FWIW, Si, I did look at your profile. And your photos. And even quite a quick look (enjoyed your gallery, BTW) had me thinking 'doesn't scratch initials in rock'. But I'd still have made the same posts (naturally excluding the reference to 'the sort of thing an AMI member would do') had it been someone else with less info on display.

To some others (without raking through things too much now that folk are starting to back down), it's really nothing like 'The Case of the Bloody Knife'. Just reading far too much into flimsy circumstantial 'evidence' when it could have been anybody, you don't know the damage was done with ice tools (well, how could you when the guilty 'climbers' could have been carrying more suitable and less precious weapons?), Si and Dean (who just don't sound the types) had completed the route and even the OP acknowledges that he 'didn't see signs of climbing higher than this'. So unfortunately nothing better than a premature witch hunt and burning, with my only real regret for my part in it being not making my earlier points more strongly than I did!

Glad your reputation appears to have come out of this unscathed Mr Cooke. And the gallery is inspiring

luke