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Hello
Please help me figure some stuff out by posting your winter soft-shell & baselayer etc combos (upper body). Im interested in how warm you are when working hard walking in versus climbing. I'm also v interested in whether the jacket can stand up to the wet, either low level rain, or a day of snow & spindrift. Do you reach for a hardshell ever?
Thanks lots. I know a lot is relative but I'm looking for something for Scottish winter conditions that's comfy, warm, dry, windproof & breathable?!! It's really useful to know how peeps use their gear in relation/in combination with the rest of their clothing 'system'
Cheers
Please help me figure some stuff out by posting your winter soft-shell & baselayer etc combos (upper body). Im interested in how warm you are when working hard walking in versus climbing. I'm also v interested in whether the jacket can stand up to the wet, either low level rain, or a day of snow & spindrift. Do you reach for a hardshell ever?
Thanks lots. I know a lot is relative but I'm looking for something for Scottish winter conditions that's comfy, warm, dry, windproof & breathable?!! It's really useful to know how peeps use their gear in relation/in combination with the rest of their clothing 'system'
Cheers
In reply to terray: I wrote a small article a few weeks ago on my thoughts on the new winter clothing system that works around softshell I've been using so far this year: http://matthewjforshaw.blogspot.com/2010/12/winter-climbing-clothing.html
In reply to terray:
i reckon its gotta be really cold and dry for a softshell to work well enough to bother with.
which discounts scotland on both fronts.
for scottish conditions id be more inclined towards a polarfleece layer against the skin then a pertex windlayer for if the breeze is blowing, then a synthetic jacket and superlight shell to finish it. both the pertex layer and the shell can be the lightest available.
if you do go with a softshell i find they work best worn straight on the skin, giving less room and buffer padding to retain heat. get the thinnest you can, and if you must have a layer under it just a base vest should do.
top off with a synthetic jacket and lightweight shell.
remember tho: it wont breath like a polarfleece/pertex combo.
not sure that answers anything for you, but seems youre rethinking the whole layering system idea so maybe some encouragement.
i reckon its gotta be really cold and dry for a softshell to work well enough to bother with.
which discounts scotland on both fronts.
for scottish conditions id be more inclined towards a polarfleece layer against the skin then a pertex windlayer for if the breeze is blowing, then a synthetic jacket and superlight shell to finish it. both the pertex layer and the shell can be the lightest available.
if you do go with a softshell i find they work best worn straight on the skin, giving less room and buffer padding to retain heat. get the thinnest you can, and if you must have a layer under it just a base vest should do.
top off with a synthetic jacket and lightweight shell.
remember tho: it wont breath like a polarfleece/pertex combo.
not sure that answers anything for you, but seems youre rethinking the whole layering system idea so maybe some encouragement.
In reply to ice.solo: I find it bizarre that you would wear a softshell under a hard shell. But this seems to illustrate something about the way clothing is marketed, currently anything that is somewhere between a fleece and a hardshell is called a softshell, but very few are true softshells, i.e. if you would wear a shell over it, it ain't a true softshell, by definition. A softshell should carry out the function of a hardshell, and should have a hood, otherwise you put a shell over it, so it ain't a shell so it can't be a softshell.
So to the OP, it totally depends on whether you choose a "softshell" or a softshell. I walk in and climb in a Rab varpourise top under a Marmot Genesis softshell. It is easy enough to avoid overheating on a walk in, and warm enough for climbing in. Then I ad a belay jacket when stationary or belaying.
But I do think that not everything marketed as a softshell is a softshell.
So to the OP, it totally depends on whether you choose a "softshell" or a softshell. I walk in and climb in a Rab varpourise top under a Marmot Genesis softshell. It is easy enough to avoid overheating on a walk in, and warm enough for climbing in. Then I ad a belay jacket when stationary or belaying.
But I do think that not everything marketed as a softshell is a softshell.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: And it is totally weatherproof, I would never put a shell over the top of it.
In reply to terray:
For winter climbing, I generally wear an old Rab Technical Smock (pile - Pertex) over a mid-weight base layer. Plenty of venting for the walk in. This easily copes with snow and spindrift and shorter periods of rain. On the rare occasions when I've had to do the walk in in the rain (like being on a paid for course where you have to go out), I sometimes put a cheap Paclite jacket over the top.
I find this too warm for general winter hill walking or the Alps and usually go for a thinner fleece then an unlined soft-shell jacket or a wind shirt and waterproof depending on whether I think heavy rain is likely. When I've judged it wrong and got caught in prolonged heavy rain in the unlined soft shell, I've not got very wet.
I always carry a synthetic jacket for belays and lunch stops. Rab Photon Hoody or a Patagonia DAS depending upon the weather.
For winter climbing, I generally wear an old Rab Technical Smock (pile - Pertex) over a mid-weight base layer. Plenty of venting for the walk in. This easily copes with snow and spindrift and shorter periods of rain. On the rare occasions when I've had to do the walk in in the rain (like being on a paid for course where you have to go out), I sometimes put a cheap Paclite jacket over the top.
I find this too warm for general winter hill walking or the Alps and usually go for a thinner fleece then an unlined soft-shell jacket or a wind shirt and waterproof depending on whether I think heavy rain is likely. When I've judged it wrong and got caught in prolonged heavy rain in the unlined soft shell, I've not got very wet.
I always carry a synthetic jacket for belays and lunch stops. Rab Photon Hoody or a Patagonia DAS depending upon the weather.
In reply to terray:
I've tried a number of different systems over the years.
Base layer, mid layer, Goretex shell: Too sweaty.
Buffalo shirt, Buffalo Jacket : Works brillantly but looks silly.
Paramo: Works brilliantly, looks okay.
Andy Kirkpatrick system (Patagonia R1, Windproof Layer, Belay Jacket): Works brilliantly and looks okay.
At present I use a Patagonia R1 pullover, a Hill Trek Ventile Windproof and a Decathlon Belay Jacket.
Walking in I open the vents and combined with the very breathable nature of Ventile this is enough to ensure that I don't overheat. Climbing I'm just about warm enough.
On the original articles on his website Andy K suggests a Pertex windproof, but I prefer Ventile windproofs as they don't go all soggy and limp in the rain. I've heard some people complain that single Ventile doesn't cope well with rain either, but I find that if you keep it well proofed (with TX10 cotton) and wear just a Patagonia R1 layer underneath it works well.
I've tried a number of different systems over the years.
Base layer, mid layer, Goretex shell: Too sweaty.
Buffalo shirt, Buffalo Jacket : Works brillantly but looks silly.
Paramo: Works brilliantly, looks okay.
Andy Kirkpatrick system (Patagonia R1, Windproof Layer, Belay Jacket): Works brilliantly and looks okay.
At present I use a Patagonia R1 pullover, a Hill Trek Ventile Windproof and a Decathlon Belay Jacket.
Walking in I open the vents and combined with the very breathable nature of Ventile this is enough to ensure that I don't overheat. Climbing I'm just about warm enough.
On the original articles on his website Andy K suggests a Pertex windproof, but I prefer Ventile windproofs as they don't go all soggy and limp in the rain. I've heard some people complain that single Ventile doesn't cope well with rain either, but I find that if you keep it well proofed (with TX10 cotton) and wear just a Patagonia R1 layer underneath it works well.
In reply to terray:
Yes. For me, I am looking for a 'true' soft-shell that pretty much negates the need for a hardshell in all but the worst rain. I want something that I can wear all day in snow and the wilds of Scotland. I don't like Paramo. Buffalo is too warm.
I like the look of the Genesis, but would question it's breathability and I get hot walking in etc.
An interesting thread. Keep it coming.
Yes. For me, I am looking for a 'true' soft-shell that pretty much negates the need for a hardshell in all but the worst rain. I want something that I can wear all day in snow and the wilds of Scotland. I don't like Paramo. Buffalo is too warm.
I like the look of the Genesis, but would question it's breathability and I get hot walking in etc.
An interesting thread. Keep it coming.
In reply to terray:
http://www.firemore.com/garments/05_mt.html
http://www.hillgear.com/acatalog/copy_of_Windshirt.html
http://www.west-winds.co.uk/cairngorm.htm
An old fashioned idea, but with modern TX10 proofing I find that they work great.
> (In reply to terray)
>
> Yes. For me, I am looking for a 'true' soft-shell that pretty much negates the need for a hardshell in all but the worst rain. I want something that I can wear all day in snow and the wilds of Scotland. I don't like Paramo. Buffalo is too warm.
>
>
> Yes. For me, I am looking for a 'true' soft-shell that pretty much negates the need for a hardshell in all but the worst rain. I want something that I can wear all day in snow and the wilds of Scotland. I don't like Paramo. Buffalo is too warm.
>
http://www.firemore.com/garments/05_mt.html
http://www.hillgear.com/acatalog/copy_of_Windshirt.html
http://www.west-winds.co.uk/cairngorm.htm
An old fashioned idea, but with modern TX10 proofing I find that they work great.
In reply to terray: Rab VaporRise would suit your requirements. I use a waterproof over the top of that when it's blowing a hoolie or snowing hard as well as in real rain, but that's as much for wind protection and warmth as waterproofing. Except for trousers I wouldn't normally bother with more conventional soft shells in this country, personally.
In reply to ice.solo: I assume you're joking.
In reply to terray: As I said, I wear Genesis over a Rab VR in winter. Not overheating during walk in, plenty easy to vent appropriately to avoid getting hot and sweaty, and enough of a shell to cope with full on shite mountain weather in winter.
In reply to terray:
I've read a few reviews that suggest that the sleeves ride up when climbing? Never seen one in't shops - would quite like to try one on.
I've read a few reviews that suggest that the sleeves ride up when climbing? Never seen one in't shops - would quite like to try one on.
In reply to terray: Never had that problem.
In reply to terray:
Interesting to hear what other people use. I wish I could find something to suit me. Perhaps a traditional layering system is best. What's a good windproof layer? Would you then ditch this if raining on the walk in and just wear your shell over the baselayer?
Interesting to hear what other people use. I wish I could find something to suit me. Perhaps a traditional layering system is best. What's a good windproof layer? Would you then ditch this if raining on the walk in and just wear your shell over the baselayer?
In reply to terray: I don't see why people wear another windproof layer under a shell. If the shell isn't windproof, why wear it? So, assuming you wear a robust shell that is actually windproof, if you need a layer between baselayer and shell, it must only be for insulation.
In reply to terray:
Perhaps because a light windproof over a base layer breathes better than a heavy shell when walking in etc. I know I'd love to find something that is comfortable and warm for walking in, and that I can just throw another layer under and then wear for the climb.
Perhaps because a light windproof over a base layer breathes better than a heavy shell when walking in etc. I know I'd love to find something that is comfortable and warm for walking in, and that I can just throw another layer under and then wear for the climb.
In reply to terray:
I wear this on my top half with nothing underneath it. It's the dogs b*ll*cks and I've used through several Scottish winters without issue, including last new year when the snowfall in Aviemore just kept on coming
http://www.montane.co.uk/products/men/extreme/extreme-smock/99
I wear this on my top half with nothing underneath it. It's the dogs b*ll*cks and I've used through several Scottish winters without issue, including last new year when the snowfall in Aviemore just kept on coming
http://www.montane.co.uk/products/men/extreme/extreme-smock/99
In reply to PaleMan:
Do you run cold? I've tried one in the shop and it was feckin warm. I reckon I'd be dripping walking in with a heavy pack.
Do you run cold? I've tried one in the shop and it was feckin warm. I reckon I'd be dripping walking in with a heavy pack.
In reply to terray:
I tend to run very warm on walk ins caryying a pack and heading uphill, so deal with that in a baselayer is its dry (Patagonia Capilene 3)
If its raining I have several options but the one I go to most is the MH Berrylium Pro Shell. I recently bought a ME Astron Hoody (Polartec Powershield) and I love it, but it hasn't had a good Rain test. Its cool to walk in, in and keep the wind off for the walk out. V Good.
I carry a Patagonia Belay Jacket for stops etc, and for MR work I laways wear the Montane Extreme Smock (Pile Pertex) which hasn't let me down yet. I have a Montane Venture Jacket (eVent) for days when its really raining. I probably have a dozen jackets for mountain wear, but apart from the MR duties I nearly always wear the Berrylium.
I tend to run very warm on walk ins caryying a pack and heading uphill, so deal with that in a baselayer is its dry (Patagonia Capilene 3)
If its raining I have several options but the one I go to most is the MH Berrylium Pro Shell. I recently bought a ME Astron Hoody (Polartec Powershield) and I love it, but it hasn't had a good Rain test. Its cool to walk in, in and keep the wind off for the walk out. V Good.
I carry a Patagonia Belay Jacket for stops etc, and for MR work I laways wear the Montane Extreme Smock (Pile Pertex) which hasn't let me down yet. I have a Montane Venture Jacket (eVent) for days when its really raining. I probably have a dozen jackets for mountain wear, but apart from the MR duties I nearly always wear the Berrylium.
In reply to terray:
Actually I run warm.
Well I only use it in snowy sub zero temps. Remember the shop will be somewhere around 17-19c! You can just can walk in with the side zips undone to stop overheating.
Actually I run warm.
Well I only use it in snowy sub zero temps. Remember the shop will be somewhere around 17-19c! You can just can walk in with the side zips undone to stop overheating.
In reply to terray:
I get really hot walking in - not sweaty really, just hot. I walk in wearing a baselayer and pertex featherlite smock. Then put on a powerstretch fleece and a thinnish softshell. I usually carry a light hardshell too, but avoid wearing it unless it is definitely raining.
I get really hot walking in - not sweaty really, just hot. I walk in wearing a baselayer and pertex featherlite smock. Then put on a powerstretch fleece and a thinnish softshell. I usually carry a light hardshell too, but avoid wearing it unless it is definitely raining.
In reply to terray:
FWIW, I wear a Patagonia Readymix jacket over a powerstrech hoody over a tight thin baselayer
I reckon British winter conditions are probably among the hardest in which to manage your warmth and comfort; rapidly changing, hard to predict, floating around freezing, very high humidity, windy
Generally a lot warmer on a hard walk-in than climbing - I try not to, but I tend to walk too fast (beat the queues!)
>I'm also v interested in whether the jacket can stand up to the wet, either low level rain, or a day of snow & spindrift.
My patagonia readymix jacket could cope with that, as long as I'm active and putting some heat out
>Do you reach for a hardshell ever?
Yes, no softshell I know of will keep you dry if you're not putting out much heat and it is raining or wet sleeting hard for more than half an hour
>I'm looking for something for Scottish winter conditions that's comfy, warm, dry, windproof & breathable?
As far as I know you won't get one jacket that will cover that 100% of the time.
FWIW, I wear a Patagonia Readymix jacket over a powerstrech hoody over a tight thin baselayer
I reckon British winter conditions are probably among the hardest in which to manage your warmth and comfort; rapidly changing, hard to predict, floating around freezing, very high humidity, windy
> how warm you are when working hard walking in versus climbing.
Generally a lot warmer on a hard walk-in than climbing - I try not to, but I tend to walk too fast (beat the queues!)
>I'm also v interested in whether the jacket can stand up to the wet, either low level rain, or a day of snow & spindrift.
My patagonia readymix jacket could cope with that, as long as I'm active and putting some heat out
>Do you reach for a hardshell ever?
Yes, no softshell I know of will keep you dry if you're not putting out much heat and it is raining or wet sleeting hard for more than half an hour
>I'm looking for something for Scottish winter conditions that's comfy, warm, dry, windproof & breathable?
As far as I know you won't get one jacket that will cover that 100% of the time.
In reply to terray:
I've no idea what to go for. Every 'system' I have tried has not suited me!! Too hot on walk in so I tried just a featherlight smock - fine, apart from if it rained. Tried a lightish hardshell - too sweaty. Tried Paramo - too hot. Reckon Bufallo & Montane Extreme will be too hot during walk in and ain't much use if it's pissing down.
Aggghhh!!
I've no idea what to go for. Every 'system' I have tried has not suited me!! Too hot on walk in so I tried just a featherlight smock - fine, apart from if it rained. Tried a lightish hardshell - too sweaty. Tried Paramo - too hot. Reckon Bufallo & Montane Extreme will be too hot during walk in and ain't much use if it's pissing down.
Aggghhh!!
In reply to terray:
I get v hot too and summer or Winter I wear or carry some combination of:
On top:
Base (either tshirt, long sleeve tshirt, zip neck long sleeve or R1 hoody)
Thin very light pullover fleece
Marmot hooded windproof top
Rab synthetic insulated gilet
Light event waterproof
Belay jacket
On legs:
Thin or thick leggings
Shorts
Trekking trousers
Softshell trousers
Waterproof trousers
Not always all of them obviously. But usually works so don't have to take anything off, just layer on top.
I get v hot too and summer or Winter I wear or carry some combination of:
On top:
Base (either tshirt, long sleeve tshirt, zip neck long sleeve or R1 hoody)
Thin very light pullover fleece
Marmot hooded windproof top
Rab synthetic insulated gilet
Light event waterproof
Belay jacket
On legs:
Thin or thick leggings
Shorts
Trekking trousers
Softshell trousers
Waterproof trousers
Not always all of them obviously. But usually works so don't have to take anything off, just layer on top.
In reply to terray:
I wear a rab vapour rise if working hard in winter (running biking etc). You might want to try that together with a layer to throw over the top when you stop or slow down.
Vapour rise is fine if raining - yes you get wet but not cold and being a bit damp doesn't really matterif you're warm.
I wear a rab vapour rise if working hard in winter (running biking etc). You might want to try that together with a layer to throw over the top when you stop or slow down.
Vapour rise is fine if raining - yes you get wet but not cold and being a bit damp doesn't really matterif you're warm.
In reply to terray: If it's raining properly and you're walking up hill your gonna get wet, the trick tis deciding when you're gonna get wetter from the outside than the inside. At which point you put your hardshell on over the baselayer/windshirt combo. You could stay comfortable walking uphill in softshell in the pissing rain but then you get above the snowline into the cold air and you've got a wetted out softshell in subzero temps which is neither light nor warm. At least if you leave the hardshell off a bit too long with the baselayer windshirt combo you havent soaked up too much moisture.
Waterproof, windproof, breathable - these terms are i fear mutually exclusive.
A bit of discomfort's kinda what it's all about though eh?
Waterproof, windproof, breathable - these terms are i fear mutually exclusive.
A bit of discomfort's kinda what it's all about though eh?
In reply to terray:
Sounds to me like soft-shell doesn't really belong in Scottish winter climbing and that a better combo would be walking in wearing various base layers, depending on temperature, then either a windproof or hardshell depending on the rain. Then, add extra layers before climbing and stick the shell over the top.
Any recommendations? Thanks again for this discussion.
Sounds to me like soft-shell doesn't really belong in Scottish winter climbing and that a better combo would be walking in wearing various base layers, depending on temperature, then either a windproof or hardshell depending on the rain. Then, add extra layers before climbing and stick the shell over the top.
Any recommendations? Thanks again for this discussion.
In reply to terray: Get a hardshell with really good ventilation (I like pitzips myself) makes a much bigger difference than the fabric
In reply to terray: why dont you like paramo stuff?i think its great for scotland and more to the point so does alan kimber and he should know!
In reply to terray:
I've managed without waterproofs during winter in Scotland for the past six years and have been much warmer and less sweaty for it. Of the hundreds of days out I've had since I've been using softshells I've only carried waterproofs a few times. I've been caught out once or twice but I don't mind the odd soaking when I'm more comfortable the rest of time.
If it's really going to be raining that much that you need to wear a hardshell all day, why go climbing?
I use a thin fleece hoody as a baselayer with a pertex top for walking in, and then put a thicker softshell over the top of both for climbing.
But ultimately you need to try a few combinations and see what works for you.
I've managed without waterproofs during winter in Scotland for the past six years and have been much warmer and less sweaty for it. Of the hundreds of days out I've had since I've been using softshells I've only carried waterproofs a few times. I've been caught out once or twice but I don't mind the odd soaking when I'm more comfortable the rest of time.
If it's really going to be raining that much that you need to wear a hardshell all day, why go climbing?
I use a thin fleece hoody as a baselayer with a pertex top for walking in, and then put a thicker softshell over the top of both for climbing.
But ultimately you need to try a few combinations and see what works for you.
In reply to terray:
Im a big fan of lots of thin, light layers. More felxiable and hardly any extra weight.
I've recently started using a Patagonia Ascencionist Jacket and love it. Haven't put a hardshell on yet this winter! Its very much what i would think of as a pure softshell (windproof, fairly water resistant although it will wet through in prolonged rain, and most importantly VERY breathable!
I usualy wear/ carry a merino base layer, micro fleece, lightweight synthetic gillet, softshell, hardshell, lightweight belay jacket. This seems to work pretty well for me. The only alteration i would make is to replace my shell with a ultralight one as it stays in the pack for emergency/ really nasty weather.
On the walk in i usually wear either just base layer or base + micro fleece. Any more and i'll sweat to death (i run hot). Hardshell over base layer if its raining.
When climbing i wear base, micro and softshell. Sometimes the gillet under or over the softshell depending on how cold it is.
When i stop either put the gillet or belay backet on, or both if its really nasty!
Hardshell stays in the bag the entire time once i'm high enough for it to stop raining and start snowing. Hence why i would like a lightweight one.
I love the flexibility this gives me! Whatever the conditions or whatever im doing i'll be pretty comfy. Lots of light weight layers don't weigh much more than fewer, heavier ones! My belay jacket and gillet weigh about 650g combined. Most standard belay jackets are anywhere from 600g-1kg!
Also tried Montane Extreme but find i get far too hot on walking, no matter how well vented it is!
Im a big fan of lots of thin, light layers. More felxiable and hardly any extra weight.
I've recently started using a Patagonia Ascencionist Jacket and love it. Haven't put a hardshell on yet this winter! Its very much what i would think of as a pure softshell (windproof, fairly water resistant although it will wet through in prolonged rain, and most importantly VERY breathable!
I usualy wear/ carry a merino base layer, micro fleece, lightweight synthetic gillet, softshell, hardshell, lightweight belay jacket. This seems to work pretty well for me. The only alteration i would make is to replace my shell with a ultralight one as it stays in the pack for emergency/ really nasty weather.
On the walk in i usually wear either just base layer or base + micro fleece. Any more and i'll sweat to death (i run hot). Hardshell over base layer if its raining.
When climbing i wear base, micro and softshell. Sometimes the gillet under or over the softshell depending on how cold it is.
When i stop either put the gillet or belay backet on, or both if its really nasty!
Hardshell stays in the bag the entire time once i'm high enough for it to stop raining and start snowing. Hence why i would like a lightweight one.
I love the flexibility this gives me! Whatever the conditions or whatever im doing i'll be pretty comfy. Lots of light weight layers don't weigh much more than fewer, heavier ones! My belay jacket and gillet weigh about 650g combined. Most standard belay jackets are anywhere from 600g-1kg!
Also tried Montane Extreme but find i get far too hot on walking, no matter how well vented it is!
In reply to Stuzz:
Wow, you certainly ain't kidding there!!!!
> (In reply to terray)
>
> Im a big fan of lots of thin, light layers...... a merino base layer, micro fleece, lightweight synthetic gillet, softshell, hardshell, lightweight belay jacket
>
> Im a big fan of lots of thin, light layers...... a merino base layer, micro fleece, lightweight synthetic gillet, softshell, hardshell, lightweight belay jacket
Wow, you certainly ain't kidding there!!!!
In reply to Stuzz: I have the same jacket (Ascentionist). I'd hazard a guess to say that within time you'll be so confident in it that you'll start leaving the waterproofs at home. I'd say last season I wore that jacket 90% of the time and about 50% of the time I wouldn't even carry a waterproof jacket/troos.
Conversely, I had to back off an ice route on Skye last year because I got soaked through. Went back the day after gore-texed up and got up it!
Conversely, I had to back off an ice route on Skye last year because I got soaked through. Went back the day after gore-texed up and got up it!
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