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Lucky, lucky chap...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12317356
I think I'd be shaking for a good few hours after that!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12317356
I think I'd be shaking for a good few hours after that!
In reply to Talius Brute: Love it...'right, that hurt a bit but carry on...now, where am i?' Legend.
In reply to Talius Brute: Should have gone to Specsavers....
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I take it that, despite the press's inability to use "walker" and "climber" correctly, this chap was actually a walker?
I take it that, despite the press's inability to use "walker" and "climber" correctly, this chap was actually a walker?
In reply to newhey: I am just trying to ensure that at least part of the Scottish press - where I'm working - reports him as a climber. I don't recognise the peak as having any climbing routes - right? So he's unlikely to have been descending after finishing a route?
In reply to Talius Brute:
I've got two friends called Adam P, so rushed to computer when I heard his name on radio. So glad to hear he is OK - and yes he is one of the two I know.
<he is a climber, though don't know if he was 'climbing' at the time>.
Bloody close call Adam!
I've got two friends called Adam P, so rushed to computer when I heard his name on radio. So glad to hear he is OK - and yes he is one of the two I know.
<he is a climber, though don't know if he was 'climbing' at the time>.
Bloody close call Adam!
In reply to drmarten: Bravo Zulu, that takes me back.
In reply to Richard Baynes: Shit I mean NOT as a climber! Some bloody accurate journalist I am!
In reply to Talius Brute: Talius Brute: Reading a map to find out where he was after being knocked out...legend Climber or walker...who cares! Unlucky to slip but lucky to come out it relatively well! Get well soon
In reply to Talius Brute: climber without out a rope or a walker without proper gear. either way bloody lucky... i wonder if a short length of rope could've helped them all.
In reply to Talius Brute: I've never been lucky enough to find any map after a fall, but what use is a Reading map in the Grey Corries?
In reply to Talius Brute: Obviously he's never been to Sandhurst if he was 'caught reading a map.'
In reply to Ian Black: Well, as it appears he's a climber by backgriound, and as in Scotland if you're out on thatv terrain you'r emountaineering (very bad headline word) we are going with climber.
In reply to Ian Black:
Personally, I find my Mons Officer Cadet School Map Reading Pamplet indispensible.
> (In reply to Talius Brute) Obviously he's never been to Sandhurst if he was 'caught reading a map.'
Personally, I find my Mons Officer Cadet School Map Reading Pamplet indispensible.
In reply to Talius Brute: I think we need more first hand information on his equipment and abilities before we pass judgement as to whether he was i'll equipped and/or unqualified to be out there in the first place.
In reply to Sean Kelly: Fnarh fnarh! Nice one.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Would it not be more appropriate just to say he's a lucky, lucky man? It's not nice when people sitting in armchairs make judgements on climbers or walkers being over or under prepared. Let's face it we all know that the smallest mistake can lead to a fall. Let's leave the armchair criticism to The Daily Mail lot!
> (In reply to Talius Brute) I think we need more first hand information on his equipment and abilities before we pass judgement as to whether he was i'll equipped and/or unqualified to be out there in the first place.
Would it not be more appropriate just to say he's a lucky, lucky man? It's not nice when people sitting in armchairs make judgements on climbers or walkers being over or under prepared. Let's face it we all know that the smallest mistake can lead to a fall. Let's leave the armchair criticism to The Daily Mail lot!
Apparantly the guy was experienced, but either way, I bet he must think someone up there loves him!
In reply to Talius Brute: Best report so far on Times website (£). Group of four walking along icy ridge, thinking about getting their ice axes and campons out.
In reply to Drew_boy: Well said
In reply to Talius Brute:
Some further details straight from Adam:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12319952
Quite a remarkable escape.
Some further details straight from Adam:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12319952
Quite a remarkable escape.
In reply to ChrisJD:
Good to hear that Adam is keen to get back into the hills. As he said at the end of that report, "It was just a little slip which led to a lot more slips... but I could slip on the doorstep at home".
The only people who have grounds for judging others in a situation like this are those who have never slipped or tripped themselves, and I don't believe such a person exists.
Good to hear that Adam is keen to get back into the hills. As he said at the end of that report, "It was just a little slip which led to a lot more slips... but I could slip on the doorstep at home".
The only people who have grounds for judging others in a situation like this are those who have never slipped or tripped themselves, and I don't believe such a person exists.
In reply to higherclimbingwales: Well according to the Scotsman/Herald, he said that he lost is walking poles in the fall. He also shows his rucksack, complete with two ice axes strapped to it.
I would give my armchair opinoin that this shows the dangers of walking poles in winter. Hed he not been using them, he could have had an axe in his hand at the point at which he fell and may have been able to self-arrest.
I would give my armchair opinoin that this shows the dangers of walking poles in winter. Hed he not been using them, he could have had an axe in his hand at the point at which he fell and may have been able to self-arrest.
In reply to Tom Knowles: I'd be straight out to buy a lottery ticket if I was him!!!
In reply to stupot: armchair opinion mate, keep it to yourself because it aint valid. sorry to moan, but speculations a load of toss.
In reply to thommi: second that, could happen to anyone. If you read this Adam (falling person) I will buy you a pint in honour of your 'grand tour'
In reply to Talius Brute: Lucky chap, a good ending from a potenitally terrible out scenario. It gave a me a smile for the day.
In reply to thommi: To be honest that's a valid point.
Incidentally I was at sea this last week and was reading the skippers version of the MAIB's incident reports. They detail numerous accidents at sea, what went wrong, what the emergency response was and how things could have been handled differently. A great report.
That culture from learning from accidents, which included many horrendous deaths (fisherman trapped in creel lines etc), is a credible one.
I think its worth highlighting if that was the case. Hypothetically, if that was the case the casualty could write a magazine article highlighting what went wrong and his decisions and how he would avoid such an accident in the future.
I'm getting increasingly concerned about fell runners wearing kahtoola microspikes and the like going into real mountainous terrain with no ice axe, in total ignorance of that fact that if they do trip they will be off very very fast.
Incidentally I was at sea this last week and was reading the skippers version of the MAIB's incident reports. They detail numerous accidents at sea, what went wrong, what the emergency response was and how things could have been handled differently. A great report.
That culture from learning from accidents, which included many horrendous deaths (fisherman trapped in creel lines etc), is a credible one.
I think its worth highlighting if that was the case. Hypothetically, if that was the case the casualty could write a magazine article highlighting what went wrong and his decisions and how he would avoid such an accident in the future.
I'm getting increasingly concerned about fell runners wearing kahtoola microspikes and the like going into real mountainous terrain with no ice axe, in total ignorance of that fact that if they do trip they will be off very very fast.
In reply to stupot: To be fair, in the Scotsman article he does say he was about to put his crampons on and get the axes out. Next time he'll probably not wait.
In reply to IainRUK: My opposition was not to the employment of the correct equipment, but the speculation of what caused the incident on a forum. Also the inferance that anyone using poles and not an axe in winter will fall, and hence walking poles are dangerous. This simply is not the case. I agree with you Iain that people should be properly equipped in the hills and know how to use that equipment properly, however I think sometimes people like to speculate, and I dont think it really gets anyone anywhere. A lesson will undoubtly be learned by the old boy who took the tumble, but it doesn't need anyone to guess what happened and pass judgement. We all know that it can be a risky business sometimes, being in these places. It doesnt need the whole "oh well why was he using poles and not an axe?" crap. Sorry to moan again. Also apologies for any spelling mistakes.
In reply to Loughan;
... and the press has such a wonderful record of immediate accuracy in mountain accidents. I remember about half the pertinent facts being wrong in one accident I helped out with (no specific insult intended to the Scotsman which I suspect is better than most).
On a more positive note I'm glad he's well and I really like the map thing: you're alive, you need to calm yourself down having fallen a stupid distance that should have killed you, you need to work out how to get back from somewhere you never expected to be... solution: try to read the map.
... and the press has such a wonderful record of immediate accuracy in mountain accidents. I remember about half the pertinent facts being wrong in one accident I helped out with (no specific insult intended to the Scotsman which I suspect is better than most).
On a more positive note I'm glad he's well and I really like the map thing: you're alive, you need to calm yourself down having fallen a stupid distance that should have killed you, you need to work out how to get back from somewhere you never expected to be... solution: try to read the map.
In reply to thommi: I know but its a fairly common mistake.
I was talking to a friend and he asked me if I leave my axe on my rucksack and then pull it out, like a sword, when slipping...he's a clever guy but just had no comprehension of how implausible that was and how quick you would be no longer here.
If that's what he did and survived, then publishing it would be worthwhile and may prevent others making a similar mistake. Of course noone knows. But I think publishing reports and lessons from accidents is very valid. And whilst I hate speculation on threads about fatalities, this guy survived, so I think its less insensitive as he can come on and post back and say 'no X happened'.
I was talking to a friend and he asked me if I leave my axe on my rucksack and then pull it out, like a sword, when slipping...he's a clever guy but just had no comprehension of how implausible that was and how quick you would be no longer here.
If that's what he did and survived, then publishing it would be worthwhile and may prevent others making a similar mistake. Of course noone knows. But I think publishing reports and lessons from accidents is very valid. And whilst I hate speculation on threads about fatalities, this guy survived, so I think its less insensitive as he can come on and post back and say 'no X happened'.
In reply to Talius Brute: would just like to add of course that it really is cracking news that the chap is fine.
In reply to thommi: What's a forum for if not for airing opinions?
I can only relate to my own personal experience. Anyone can slip. I have slipped (in the last year). I do not use walking poles, so I had an axe in my hand and self-arrested.
Walking poles may aid balance but they are useless if you slip, they therefore give the illusion of security and that is dangerous.
This guy that fell was obviously happy to give interviews to the papers and pose for photos, so I think I am entitled to draw my own conclusions and to air them.
I can only relate to my own personal experience. Anyone can slip. I have slipped (in the last year). I do not use walking poles, so I had an axe in my hand and self-arrested.
Walking poles may aid balance but they are useless if you slip, they therefore give the illusion of security and that is dangerous.
This guy that fell was obviously happy to give interviews to the papers and pose for photos, so I think I am entitled to draw my own conclusions and to air them.
In reply to thommi:
Winter mountaineering is dangerous, we all make mistakes from time to time and luckily normally don't face such consequences. The 'learning' to be had I think is usually bogus, or if not, mainly of the wake-up call variety (the relevant information being known already). If people really want to 'learn' they should wait for the rescue reports and discuss them but only on a rare occasion will the forums be other than deadly silent on such reports... and yet the immediate news threads of less lucky incidents are often littered with speculative twaddle.
Winter mountaineering is dangerous, we all make mistakes from time to time and luckily normally don't face such consequences. The 'learning' to be had I think is usually bogus, or if not, mainly of the wake-up call variety (the relevant information being known already). If people really want to 'learn' they should wait for the rescue reports and discuss them but only on a rare occasion will the forums be other than deadly silent on such reports... and yet the immediate news threads of less lucky incidents are often littered with speculative twaddle.
In reply to stupot:
I hope if you ever make a mistake that results in more serious consequences people are kinder and wait for the information to be clearer before attaching blame.
People are perfectly capable of using walking poles without 'illusions of security'.
I hope if you ever make a mistake that results in more serious consequences people are kinder and wait for the information to be clearer before attaching blame.
People are perfectly capable of using walking poles without 'illusions of security'.
In reply to IainRUK: Possibly a more reasoned responce than mine, and I agree with all your points. I think perhaps Im being a little over sensitive this morning, and as you point out this incident has a happy ending. I suppose I have a problem with blanket statements. I do agree that its seem a commen problem people not understanding the importance of the ability to self arrest, but things are never as clear cut as some make out. Anyhoo, coffees kicking in now.
In reply to stupot: ..."Walking poles may aid balance but they are useless if you slip, they therefore give the illusion of security and that is dangerous."
....sorry fella but this just aint true.
....sorry fella but this just aint true.
In reply to offwidth: I know i know. Like I said in reply to Iain I think Im being a bit sensitive this morning. Things are never as simple as they seem, especially when those this pertain to winter mountaineering.
In reply to thommi:
Ok, I don't have poles so I can't substantiate that statement,
but perhaps you could explain why you disagree???
> (In reply to stupot) ..."Walking poles may aid balance but they are useless if you slip, they therefore give the illusion of security and that is dangerous."
> ....sorry fella but this just aint true.
> ....sorry fella but this just aint true.
Ok, I don't have poles so I can't substantiate that statement,
but perhaps you could explain why you disagree???
In reply to IainRUK:
"(the relevant information being known already)."
That's just not the case. It is not rare to see walkers perched high up cramponing up.
I'm not saying every accident should be reported but sometimes a incident report and lessons learned document is a worthwhile response.
One of the incidents at sea last year was caused by a skipper releasing a set amount of chain regardless of depth....now you'd think it would be common knowledge that the length of anchor chain deployed varies with depth, but clearly it wasn't. Therefore the MAIB pubmished a report of the incident and thousands of sea going skippers will see the outcome of incorrectly calculating the length of anchor chain required...which is is common knowledge for anyone with some sea going experience...
"(the relevant information being known already)."
That's just not the case. It is not rare to see walkers perched high up cramponing up.
I'm not saying every accident should be reported but sometimes a incident report and lessons learned document is a worthwhile response.
One of the incidents at sea last year was caused by a skipper releasing a set amount of chain regardless of depth....now you'd think it would be common knowledge that the length of anchor chain deployed varies with depth, but clearly it wasn't. Therefore the MAIB pubmished a report of the incident and thousands of sea going skippers will see the outcome of incorrectly calculating the length of anchor chain required...which is is common knowledge for anyone with some sea going experience...
In reply to Offwidth: Offwidth:
1. rescue reports don't take that format
2. If bogus why do the MAIB invest so much effort into it?
3. in NZ reports following accidents into the wider issues behind the incidents are common, e.g. snow stakes and short roping investigations.
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/07017-maib-dft1598_V3_A4.pdf
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/annual%20report%201994.pdf
> (In reply to thommi)
>
> Winter mountaineering is dangerous, we all make mistakes from time to time and luckily normally don't face such consequences. The 'learning' to be had I think is usually bogus, or if not, mainly of the wake-up call variety (the relevant information being known already). If people really want to 'learn' they should wait for the rescue reports and discuss them but only on a rare occasion will the forums be other than deadly silent on such reports... and yet the immediate news threads of less lucky incidents are often littered with speculative twaddle.
>
> Winter mountaineering is dangerous, we all make mistakes from time to time and luckily normally don't face such consequences. The 'learning' to be had I think is usually bogus, or if not, mainly of the wake-up call variety (the relevant information being known already). If people really want to 'learn' they should wait for the rescue reports and discuss them but only on a rare occasion will the forums be other than deadly silent on such reports... and yet the immediate news threads of less lucky incidents are often littered with speculative twaddle.
1. rescue reports don't take that format
2. If bogus why do the MAIB invest so much effort into it?
3. in NZ reports following accidents into the wider issues behind the incidents are common, e.g. snow stakes and short roping investigations.
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/07017-maib-dft1598_V3_A4.pdf
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/annual%20report%201994.pdf
In reply to stupot: Because poles are simply a tool, just as an ice axe is. Neither one is better, they are for different things and should be used appropriately. As so often happens in the mountains there is some cross over on the use of these tools. The rest is logical. Sorry to have been so grumbly earlier chap. Didnt mean to be rude.
In reply to IainRUK: The short roping report is very interesting and should be essencial (if not, certainly highly recommended) reading for those who may use or come across this technique.
In reply to IainRUK:
I'm prety sure we are talking at cross purposes as I've nothing against your posts. I support accident investiagation and reporting. I strongly recommend the approach taken in Yosemite where information can show up climbers' attitudes being part of the problem.
http://www.friendsofyosar.org/safety/climbingSafety.html
My view is that the learning on these threads immediatly post accident is almost always bogus. Where climbers are regularly doing stupid things and might learn the message needs collating (like in the Yosemite report) to even have a chance of making most of them listen. Occasionally some useful technical stuff also comes out of reports. I've personally witnessed these threads can be extremely upsetting to relatives and friends when accdients have occured and the victim is still in critical condition.
I'm prety sure we are talking at cross purposes as I've nothing against your posts. I support accident investiagation and reporting. I strongly recommend the approach taken in Yosemite where information can show up climbers' attitudes being part of the problem.
http://www.friendsofyosar.org/safety/climbingSafety.html
My view is that the learning on these threads immediatly post accident is almost always bogus. Where climbers are regularly doing stupid things and might learn the message needs collating (like in the Yosemite report) to even have a chance of making most of them listen. Occasionally some useful technical stuff also comes out of reports. I've personally witnessed these threads can be extremely upsetting to relatives and friends when accdients have occured and the victim is still in critical condition.
In reply to Offwidth: I know, and I understand that, I think in this case the guy is up and walking and so its different. Generally as a rule I do not post on fatality or accident threads because I think then is not the time to talk about the accident.
In reply to thommi:
Monday morning, everyone is entitled to be grumpy
Agreed, but very often it is tempting to delay stopping to change equipment/clothing to something more appropriate and carry on a bit further. A walking axe aids balance and provides the means to self-arrest whereas poles only aid balance. If the interview reported is correct, this guy was using poles and had planned to get out axe and crampons at a rock 5 metres further on. He had a very luck escape, but learning only from your own mistakes is a high risk strategy.
Monday morning, everyone is entitled to be grumpy
> poles are simply a tool, just as an ice axe is. Neither one is better, they are for different things and should be used appropriately. As so often happens in the mountains there is some cross over on the use of these tools.
Agreed, but very often it is tempting to delay stopping to change equipment/clothing to something more appropriate and carry on a bit further. A walking axe aids balance and provides the means to self-arrest whereas poles only aid balance. If the interview reported is correct, this guy was using poles and had planned to get out axe and crampons at a rock 5 metres further on. He had a very luck escape, but learning only from your own mistakes is a high risk strategy.
In reply to stupot: I think we're both on the same page basically. I agree with what you are saying to a degree but it relys on a number of assumtions, the largest of which being would be actually have been able to self arrest? What ground was be on at that exact moment? While I agree that an axe in the hands of someone who knows how to self arrest and is on the most likely ground to do so, will be able to stop a slip turning into a disaster, there will of course be times when the counter balance of that, that is that using poles may prevent a slip occuring outweigh the need for the ability to arrest. Its all about the judgement call. Unfortunately, ones own mistakes are the ones which serve the best learnt lesson.
In reply to stupot:
Actually it is possible to self-arrest using walking poles, I've tried it (not in a real situation!). It works surprisingly well if the snow isn't too icy, and if you're expecting to fall
On the same day, we also tried to simulate slips that occur when you're not expecting them - it's one thing self-arresting by flinging yourself down a fairly gentle slope, axe in hand, ready to brake; quite another if you're having a chat about that film you saw last week and trip over your crampon strap.
We came to the conclusion that on steep icy snow, if you don't get the axe in within a second or so, you're unlikely to stop before the snow gets softer, or you reach the bottom, or you hit something solid.
Actually it is possible to self-arrest using walking poles, I've tried it (not in a real situation!). It works surprisingly well if the snow isn't too icy, and if you're expecting to fall
On the same day, we also tried to simulate slips that occur when you're not expecting them - it's one thing self-arresting by flinging yourself down a fairly gentle slope, axe in hand, ready to brake; quite another if you're having a chat about that film you saw last week and trip over your crampon strap.
We came to the conclusion that on steep icy snow, if you don't get the axe in within a second or so, you're unlikely to stop before the snow gets softer, or you reach the bottom, or you hit something solid.
In reply to Talius Brute:
I remember trying to self-arrest when picking up too much speed decending the Galcier du Pelerins. The snow was so soft, the brake didn't work, so I just dug my heels in, and eventually found myself down at the end of a long tunnel about 4 feet from the surface.
I remember trying to self-arrest when picking up too much speed decending the Galcier du Pelerins. The snow was so soft, the brake didn't work, so I just dug my heels in, and eventually found myself down at the end of a long tunnel about 4 feet from the surface.
In reply to IainRUK:
Absolutely We should learn from accidents. The main difference with MAIB, RAIB or any other investigating body is the accuracy of the evidence. I personally am sceptical of any media reports about mountaineering accidents. I'm sure the guy who fell is going over what he did, what went wrong and how he can learn for the future. That's what I did after an accident last season. I learnt plenty about my competence in the hills and what I could do better!
There may be a case for starting up a Mountaineering Accident Investigation Board which would be much more constructive than relying on the media to be accurate!
Absolutely We should learn from accidents. The main difference with MAIB, RAIB or any other investigating body is the accuracy of the evidence. I personally am sceptical of any media reports about mountaineering accidents. I'm sure the guy who fell is going over what he did, what went wrong and how he can learn for the future. That's what I did after an accident last season. I learnt plenty about my competence in the hills and what I could do better!
There may be a case for starting up a Mountaineering Accident Investigation Board which would be much more constructive than relying on the media to be accurate!
In reply to Drew_boy: there is this http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/mountain-incidents-report.pdf but unfortunately it does not offer enough information to draw many meaningful conclusions or lessons learned.
In reply to stupot: No, its actually quite uselss. The MAIB investigate and then publish, a mate does the role in NZ, a superb informative service. They specifically discuss examples and often have feedback from the skippers about how they would mitigate the risk in future. They are also good at not attributing blame, even in the case of a coxswain driving a RIB into rocks at 20 knots, killing its passenger, after spending 5 hrs in the pub.
Never used walking poles but I've managed to stop a tumble using a ski poles while touring. More luck than judgement though!
Glad the bloke in Scotland walked away from it a bit wiser - I'll bet we've all had a 'I should've tooled up and put my crampons on a bit sooner' moment at some stage in the hills.
Glad the bloke in Scotland walked away from it a bit wiser - I'll bet we've all had a 'I should've tooled up and put my crampons on a bit sooner' moment at some stage in the hills.
OK. I can see this thread falling into the usual state of arguement for no apparent gain.
It was me that fell.
Mr Sean Kelly, yes I'm a climber that can also read a map. On saturday we were not climbing just having a good day in the hills.
Mr Stupot, I had literally just said to the rest of the team, 'lets put our crampons on and get the axes off sacks now'. I was walking approx 5 meters to a boulder to a flat spot with shelter to re-kit myself and that is when I slipped.
I'm sure you can get the rest of the story from papers.
Got discharged from Hospital today at lunchtime. I've been completely bombarded with press and TV.
We have all taken a slip at some point, its just the consequences of mine were rather more dramatic. And yes, who knows if had my axe in hand then maybe I would have stopped sooner. Hey, maybe I should have kept my axe in may hand all the way from the car 'just in case'
All the best
Adam
It was me that fell.
Mr Sean Kelly, yes I'm a climber that can also read a map. On saturday we were not climbing just having a good day in the hills.
Mr Stupot, I had literally just said to the rest of the team, 'lets put our crampons on and get the axes off sacks now'. I was walking approx 5 meters to a boulder to a flat spot with shelter to re-kit myself and that is when I slipped.
I'm sure you can get the rest of the story from papers.
Got discharged from Hospital today at lunchtime. I've been completely bombarded with press and TV.
We have all taken a slip at some point, its just the consequences of mine were rather more dramatic. And yes, who knows if had my axe in hand then maybe I would have stopped sooner. Hey, maybe I should have kept my axe in may hand all the way from the car 'just in case'
All the best
Adam
In reply to stunt climber: Good on you for posting here. There's a thread that's probably still live about impressive falls, if you'd like to contribute...?
T.
T.
In reply to stunt climber:
You came across very well on Radio 4 (PM). I know hard it can be to control how the press things do things, but so far you seem to be doing it!
Glad this is one that ends well and I wish you many happy mountain days to come.
You came across very well on Radio 4 (PM). I know hard it can be to control how the press things do things, but so far you seem to be doing it!
Glad this is one that ends well and I wish you many happy mountain days to come.
In reply to stunt climber: Good post! I saw you on BBC1 Scotland last night and you were excellent. Well done on all the press reports, they can be ruthless sometimes.
Stay safe!
Stay safe!
In reply to stunt climber: P.S. No need to try and live up to your online name
In reply to stunt climber: Glad to see that you are alive, well, and posting Adam. Sorry if my thread comes across as critical but it is actually intended humour and not at all a slight to yourself.
If we go into the mountains especially in winter, we all risk a trip or similar mishap, and hopefully it is no more than that. The actual decision as to when to substitute poles for crampons is very much a matter of personal judgment and experience, dependent on terrain, weather and experience. Tragically there was an accident a few weeks ago in Wales (Cwm Lloer) where the climber involved tripped on crampons, so they are not neccessarily safer. Show me a climber who hasn't got crampon holes in their overtrousers!
Hope you make a speedy recovery.
If we go into the mountains especially in winter, we all risk a trip or similar mishap, and hopefully it is no more than that. The actual decision as to when to substitute poles for crampons is very much a matter of personal judgment and experience, dependent on terrain, weather and experience. Tragically there was an accident a few weeks ago in Wales (Cwm Lloer) where the climber involved tripped on crampons, so they are not neccessarily safer. Show me a climber who hasn't got crampon holes in their overtrousers!
Hope you make a speedy recovery.
In reply to stunt climber:
Adam, heard you on 5 Live this afternoon, thought you came across very well. You said you were off to Everest in the spring, is that to trek or are you actually on a exped?
Adam, heard you on 5 Live this afternoon, thought you came across very well. You said you were off to Everest in the spring, is that to trek or are you actually on a exped?
In reply to stunt climber: Good post, all the best and I hope that you recover soon to have many more great days in the hills.
Alan
Alan
In reply to stunt climber:
Thanks for posting, Adam, and for answering the questions we all wanted to ask. I have one more: were you wearing a helmet?
Thanks for posting, Adam, and for answering the questions we all wanted to ask. I have one more: were you wearing a helmet?
Thanks for all your positive comments
Sean, My post wasn't intended to come across as snappy. At the end of the day there is danger in all that we do. I wonder how the stats would rate up comparing walking around a town for a day and being run over, against a day in the hills? Surely a title for a PhD?
Stevez, yep I'm on an expedition (not just BC) and just for clarification there could well be a combination of walking poles and Axe! (map probably not required - just follow the footprints!)
Adam
Sean, My post wasn't intended to come across as snappy. At the end of the day there is danger in all that we do. I wonder how the stats would rate up comparing walking around a town for a day and being run over, against a day in the hills? Surely a title for a PhD?
Stevez, yep I'm on an expedition (not just BC) and just for clarification there could well be a combination of walking poles and Axe! (map probably not required - just follow the footprints!)
Adam
In reply to Peter Gillman:
No helmet. We were just out walking (munro bagging). I do plenty of climbing though and always where a helmet then.
> (In reply to stunt climber)
>
> Thanks for posting, Adam, and for answering the questions we all wanted to ask. I have one more: were you wearing a helmet?
>
> Thanks for posting, Adam, and for answering the questions we all wanted to ask. I have one more: were you wearing a helmet?
No helmet. We were just out walking (munro bagging). I do plenty of climbing though and always where a helmet then.
In reply to IainRUK:
This is my personal bugbear.
In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
> I'm not saying every accident should be reported but sometimes a incident report and lessons learned document is a worthwhile response.
This is my personal bugbear.
In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
In reply to David Martin: That's an interesting post. Worth putting up on a separate thread to allow an independent discussion?
T.
T.
In reply to stunt climber: Well done for posting mate and best wishes to you in your rcovery, a close shave for sure. Be prepard that you may start to get some post traumatic effects at some point....good to hear that it worked out for you, all the best.
In reply to Tom Knowles:
Best wishes and get well soon Adam - damn unlucky to fall but damn lucky to come out of it so well.
> (In reply to ChrisJD)
>
"It was just a little slip which led to a lot more slips... but I could slip on the doorstep at home".>
>
I love this line - It's brilliant!Best wishes and get well soon Adam - damn unlucky to fall but damn lucky to come out of it so well.
In reply to stunt climber:
Just a quickie, were you looking at the map to find your way home, or were you calculating how far you fell and trying to decide if you needed to embelish the story for the pub later?
Nice line about the doorstep.
Just a quickie, were you looking at the map to find your way home, or were you calculating how far you fell and trying to decide if you needed to embelish the story for the pub later?
Nice line about the doorstep.
In reply to Talius Brute:
loved this quote of Adam's
"I was slipping down on ice and snow and I tried to lose some speed at that point but it was very difficult - my speed gathered pace very quickly," he said.
"But then every now and then I would go over a cliff edge and any speed I had lost immediately came back because I was just free-falling at that point. "
Very matter of fact (and mildy funny from a black sense of hmour) from a lucky escape
loved this quote of Adam's
"I was slipping down on ice and snow and I tried to lose some speed at that point but it was very difficult - my speed gathered pace very quickly," he said.
"But then every now and then I would go over a cliff edge and any speed I had lost immediately came back because I was just free-falling at that point. "
Very matter of fact (and mildy funny from a black sense of hmour) from a lucky escape
In reply to stunt climber:
Is there anything in particular that makes you think that a helmet is not appropriate for winter hillwalking?
> (In reply to Peter Gillman)
> [...]
>
>
> No helmet. We were just out walking (munro bagging). I do plenty of climbing though and always where a helmet then.
> [...]
>
>
> No helmet. We were just out walking (munro bagging). I do plenty of climbing though and always where a helmet then.
Is there anything in particular that makes you think that a helmet is not appropriate for winter hillwalking?
In reply to stunt climber:
This doesn't sound like you've learnt anything at all from your experience. I'd be a bit more contrite if this had happened to me. Never mind, revel in your moment of notoriety.
> Hey, maybe I should have kept my axe in may hand all the way from the car 'just in case'
This doesn't sound like you've learnt anything at all from your experience. I'd be a bit more contrite if this had happened to me. Never mind, revel in your moment of notoriety.
In reply to David Martin:
I totally agree. I've argued myself in the past for more of a debriefing culture.
On the other hand, look at the way climbers behave, on here, when someone tries to be honest about something that happened to them. Again and again, the idiots come out and slag them off. Not encouraging.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> [...]
>
> This is my personal bugbear.
>
> In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
>
> The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
>
> [...]
>
> This is my personal bugbear.
>
> In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
>
> The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
I totally agree. I've argued myself in the past for more of a debriefing culture.
On the other hand, look at the way climbers behave, on here, when someone tries to be honest about something that happened to them. Again and again, the idiots come out and slag them off. Not encouraging.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I think there's a difference between maritime and aviation incidents and incidents on hills. In the case of maritime and aviation incidents, there are rules and regulations and licensing requirements. There are official bodies which act to monitor and enforce the rules and apply sanctions if a pilot or ship's captain don't abide by the requirements. We don't have that in walking/climbing/mountaineering, and I think most people would prefer it stayed that way. That being the case, enforcement of standards and dissemination of advice is much harder than in a regulated environment.
However, I do agree that more could be done to apply some degree of analysis and understanding. There are numerous difficulties in doing this in a useful way (which is not to say they shouldn't be tackled), but even if it could all be done sensibly and sensitively, there are few effective ways of ensuring that everyone venturing onto the hills is equally and adequately equipped with the required knowledge, and no sanctions that can be applied to anyone who chooses to do their own thing.
And, as you say, it doesn't help when the idiots come out and try to make their own high-minded judgements based on incomplete information.
>
>
> I totally agree. I've argued myself in the past for more of a debriefing culture.
>
> On the other hand, look at the way climbers behave, on here, when someone tries to be honest about something that happened to them. Again and again, the idiots come out and slag them off. Not encouraging.
>
> I totally agree. I've argued myself in the past for more of a debriefing culture.
>
> On the other hand, look at the way climbers behave, on here, when someone tries to be honest about something that happened to them. Again and again, the idiots come out and slag them off. Not encouraging.
I think there's a difference between maritime and aviation incidents and incidents on hills. In the case of maritime and aviation incidents, there are rules and regulations and licensing requirements. There are official bodies which act to monitor and enforce the rules and apply sanctions if a pilot or ship's captain don't abide by the requirements. We don't have that in walking/climbing/mountaineering, and I think most people would prefer it stayed that way. That being the case, enforcement of standards and dissemination of advice is much harder than in a regulated environment.
However, I do agree that more could be done to apply some degree of analysis and understanding. There are numerous difficulties in doing this in a useful way (which is not to say they shouldn't be tackled), but even if it could all be done sensibly and sensitively, there are few effective ways of ensuring that everyone venturing onto the hills is equally and adequately equipped with the required knowledge, and no sanctions that can be applied to anyone who chooses to do their own thing.
And, as you say, it doesn't help when the idiots come out and try to make their own high-minded judgements based on incomplete information.
In reply to stunt climber:
Back to (surely) THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT:
$**^$&^ Fantastic news that you are still around and walking and talking Adam!!!
That must have been a hell of a shake up for you and your closest.
All the best for your recovery and future plans.
Take care. And see you in the hills
Bruce
Back to (surely) THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT:
$**^$&^ Fantastic news that you are still around and walking and talking Adam!!!
That must have been a hell of a shake up for you and your closest.
All the best for your recovery and future plans.
Take care. And see you in the hills
Bruce
In reply to stupot: dude!!? once again!! why do you have to be so harsh ay? what exactly is the poiunt? do you feel better after your little comment?
In reply to tony:
Indeed. I've seen people reporting what happened to them called liars on here, and by people who were nowhere near the accident when it happened.
>
>
> And, as you say, it doesn't help when the idiots come out and try to make their own high-minded judgements based on incomplete information.
>
> And, as you say, it doesn't help when the idiots come out and try to make their own high-minded judgements based on incomplete information.
Indeed. I've seen people reporting what happened to them called liars on here, and by people who were nowhere near the accident when it happened.
In reply to Tim Chappel: Good to see some reason on here from a few people. incidently a thread has now popped up about 'how do you carry your ice axe?'.
In reply to thommi: Not better at all, more like astounded at this guys flipant response to what was undoubtably a very lucky escape. He's probably not helped by everyone here telling him what a hero he is.
In reply to Stupot: WTF is your problem man?
> (In reply to stunt climber)
> [...]
> [...]
FFS!!! Why do people turn threads into pedantic debates all the time. You would feel a right tw@ asking this of someone in person unless you've had enough beer to cloud judgement, so why ask on an internet forum.
> In reply to Jim Fraser:
>
> Is there anything in particular that makes you think that a helmet is not appropriate for winter hillwalking?
>
> Is there anything in particular that makes you think that a helmet is not appropriate for winter hillwalking?
Helmets are not appropriate for winter hillwalking. There is little threat of something dropping on your head, which is what they are primarily used for.
In reply to Stupot:
> This doesn't sound like you've learnt anything at all from your experience. I'd be a bit more contrite if this had happened to me. Never mind, revel in your moment of notoriety.
It's a fair comment. How can you sit and type such rubbish, especially having seen, heard or read the amount he has discussed the incident already.
In reply to stupot:
Presumably you'd like to see some of kind of contrition ledger - a few bruises after a wee slip on some wet grass requires "oops, must be a bit more careful next time"; anything resulting in a bit of blood "I'm terribly sorry and I really won't do it again. Sorry. Sorry."; all the way up to the ultimate "may the great gods of the hills please forgive me for my foolishness and my stupidity, for I had the temerity to have an accident, and may the great armchair critics feel free to heap derision on my unworthy head, despite the fact that they weren't there and they don't really know what they're talking about, and I promise never to set foot on any slope greater than 1 in 10, or leave the safety of paved paths, for I am obviously an incompetent liability and I will willingly wear the tattoo to show my worthlessness".
Presumably you'd also like to see anyone dealing with any situation with a bit of black humour instantly banned from the hills?
> (In reply to thommi) Not better at all, more like astounded at this guys flipant response to what was undoubtably a very lucky escape. He's probably not helped by everyone here telling him what a hero he is.
Presumably you'd like to see some of kind of contrition ledger - a few bruises after a wee slip on some wet grass requires "oops, must be a bit more careful next time"; anything resulting in a bit of blood "I'm terribly sorry and I really won't do it again. Sorry. Sorry."; all the way up to the ultimate "may the great gods of the hills please forgive me for my foolishness and my stupidity, for I had the temerity to have an accident, and may the great armchair critics feel free to heap derision on my unworthy head, despite the fact that they weren't there and they don't really know what they're talking about, and I promise never to set foot on any slope greater than 1 in 10, or leave the safety of paved paths, for I am obviously an incompetent liability and I will willingly wear the tattoo to show my worthlessness".
Presumably you'd also like to see anyone dealing with any situation with a bit of black humour instantly banned from the hills?
In reply to tony: Not at all
David said:
As seen here, any interest in contributory factors is immediately shouted down, with references to "the great gods of the hills"
David said:
> Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
As seen here, any interest in contributory factors is immediately shouted down, with references to "the great gods of the hills"
In reply to jonnie3430:
Wrong. Have a look at the OP's face.
In some respects, this is not a unusual accident. It started with the common 'simple slip'. What is unusual after a fall of this length is that the casualty's head is not now a lump of grey and red pulp.
> [...]
>
> Helmets are not appropriate for winter hillwalking.
>
> Helmets are not appropriate for winter hillwalking.
Wrong. Have a look at the OP's face.
In some respects, this is not a unusual accident. It started with the common 'simple slip'. What is unusual after a fall of this length is that the casualty's head is not now a lump of grey and red pulp.
In reply to Jim Fraser: Right firstly what would a helmet have done about the chaps face? nothing! Secondly, helmets (for climbing) are designed to mitigate against predominantly a blow from above (ie. ice, rock, gear, person etc). Dont be a knob for the sake of it. Do you really go out winter walking with an axe in each hand and a helmet!!! (better make it a motocross helmet of simerlar to protect your face!!!) Do'H!! fool.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
You're a ridiculous pedant! Are you suggesting that everyone should wear FULL FACE helmets (that would actually stop his face getting scratched,) ALL the time in case accidents happen?? Whats the difference between someone falling over in the hills and banging or scratching their head and doing it in town? I'm sure that people have died in the past from falling and hitting their heads on kerbs. In your daft wee world we should be wearing helmets to stop that too. You must walk around looking like the michelin man, protecting yourself from every eventuality that may happen.
Don't bother posting any spurious little arguement in reply, I won't respond.
You're a ridiculous pedant! Are you suggesting that everyone should wear FULL FACE helmets (that would actually stop his face getting scratched,) ALL the time in case accidents happen?? Whats the difference between someone falling over in the hills and banging or scratching their head and doing it in town? I'm sure that people have died in the past from falling and hitting their heads on kerbs. In your daft wee world we should be wearing helmets to stop that too. You must walk around looking like the michelin man, protecting yourself from every eventuality that may happen.
Don't bother posting any spurious little arguement in reply, I won't respond.
In reply to jonnie3430:
Imagine the feelings of the guy who had the accident, still in shock, still getting a grip on what nearly happened to him, when he reads through a thread like this.
I've been in that situation myself, and I can tell you, it's not nice.
Imagine the feelings of the guy who had the accident, still in shock, still getting a grip on what nearly happened to him, when he reads through a thread like this.
I've been in that situation myself, and I can tell you, it's not nice.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
As far as I can tell from his posts he seems to have his head screwed on as far as UKC spaff is concerned; he has set the story right and is not getting involved in any of the debate. There are enough instances of stuff being taken off topic for him to take any of this seriously.
If I was him I'd be bugging wives or girlfriends or friends to take a few days off and do some random mischief, not looking at how the faceless pedants of UKC react to the incident.
As far as I can tell from his posts he seems to have his head screwed on as far as UKC spaff is concerned; he has set the story right and is not getting involved in any of the debate. There are enough instances of stuff being taken off topic for him to take any of this seriously.
If I was him I'd be bugging wives or girlfriends or friends to take a few days off and do some random mischief, not looking at how the faceless pedants of UKC react to the incident.
In reply to thommi:
I go out winter or summer walking with a helmet on, usually from the moment I leave the roadside. The reason that I do that is that a number of specific incidents from my 45+ years experience of big hills tells me I should this. That is backed up by a number of incidents from my 20+ years experience of picking up bits of other people after they have had an accident. I do not back down on the helmet issue, so don't expect it.
Example
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=94517
> (In reply to Jim Fraser) Do you really go out winter walking with an axe in each hand and a helmet!
I go out winter or summer walking with a helmet on, usually from the moment I leave the roadside. The reason that I do that is that a number of specific incidents from my 45+ years experience of big hills tells me I should this. That is backed up by a number of incidents from my 20+ years experience of picking up bits of other people after they have had an accident. I do not back down on the helmet issue, so don't expect it.
Example
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=94517
Since I raised the issue about whether Adam was wearing a helmet, can I explain why? There has been argument as to whether hill-walkers should wear helmets, on the grounds that this protects their heads in the event of a fall. This is more important than the danger of being hit by falling stones or other debris, which is unlikely in the case of hill-walkers. I had guessed, from the state of Adam's face, that he was not wearing a helmet - and so am even more impressed that he survived the fall without significant head injuries. So does the exception prove the rule? Or does Adam's survival dispose of the argument that hill-walkers should wear helmets, at least in winter?
In reply to Jim Fraser: You do what you like mate. Ive never asked you to back down on any issue, however Im not the one being contencious and suggesting other people are wrong for not doing as i do! You have your reasons for always wearing a helmet, which i respect. Everyone has thier own background and responds differently to different things. Mitigating risk is a VERY personal thing. It could be argued that of course the absolutely safest thing to do would be to stay at home. Once again I'd like to reitterate that Im not trying to change your ways at all, Im just saying because you do something dont mean that everyone has to.
In reply to Jim Fraser: I get folk I'm taking up the hills in winter to wear a helmet if there is a risk that a slip will turn into a slide. Like you I have had to deal with the consequences of sliding mountaineers (including myself) and it's not nice.
This means that I take helmets out when it's bullet hard neve, icey under powder or blowing a mental hooley (like today). Now the clients are used to it they say they feel more focussed and safety concious wearing one.
Not getting involved in Adam's lucky escape except to say I've been there myself and it took me a while to get my head back into feeling comfy on long runouts on neve. Hope you have a swift recovery.
This means that I take helmets out when it's bullet hard neve, icey under powder or blowing a mental hooley (like today). Now the clients are used to it they say they feel more focussed and safety concious wearing one.
Not getting involved in Adam's lucky escape except to say I've been there myself and it took me a while to get my head back into feeling comfy on long runouts on neve. Hope you have a swift recovery.
In reply to David Martin:
Excellent.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> [...]
>
> This is my personal bugbear.
>
> In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
>
> The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
>
> [...]
>
> This is my personal bugbear.
>
> In the aviation industry, every accident, military/civil, big or small, is analysed and publicly reported. All can be anonymous but the lessons are learnt and the culture is to report, not to hide. This reversal to a positive safety culture came as a response to too many accidents.
>
> The climbing fraternity could learn a lot from this. Much of the so-called "knowledge" out there is little better than superstition and hear-say, or at worst downright dangerous. Yet there seems to be a very negative safety culture in terms of reporting, analysis and comment.
Excellent.
In reply to stupot:
If you're ever unlucky/lucky enough to have and survive a similar accident, then you may well change your tune. My response to my own brush with the reaper was to create a fake video of the accident complete with copious Monty Python style blood
Humour is often a good way of dealing with traumatic events.
> astounded at this guys flipant response to what was undoubtably a very lucky escape
If you're ever unlucky/lucky enough to have and survive a similar accident, then you may well change your tune. My response to my own brush with the reaper was to create a fake video of the accident complete with copious Monty Python style blood
Humour is often a good way of dealing with traumatic events.
In reply to tony:
Not necessarily so. The change in safety culture in the aviation industry came directly as a response to accidents and an existing culture of stiff upper lip, keep it under your hat, don't question - particularly in the military. Sadly, the same culture is replicated here to a substantial degree by a strong pressure not to ask questions following an accident (out of respect I assume). What could be more respectful than working to ensure a death or injury wasn't repeated?
Back in NZ, as soon as your medical was undertaken, even for a student pilot, either quarterly or monthly a cheap rag arrived in the mail. It summarised each and every accident, from a microlight's near miss with a sheep on a farmer's field to un-contained engine failure on 747. This was largely pre-internet, so the summary of these accidents is easier now. Regulation was a side issue and reporting was never for punitive reasons.
Most importantly, far from being invasive of privacy, the reporting is anonymous and not coerced. It created an organic safety culture where reporting and analysis were seen as positive. Official bodies were created as a response to accidents, and far from regulating the free, open and frank review changed behaviour in a much more subtle way.
We are probably all members of the BMC, and I am surprised the BMC hasn't been more active in this area. As it happens, the only real sources of guidance we have here are professional courses (which few wish or can afford to undertake), books (often contradictory depending on current fashion) or discussion here on UKC (interesting, but not ideal). All vary in quality and direction. While there is likely to never be total agreement, a reasonably detailed account of any accident is likely to be useful. The potential alternative is that increasing numbers of climbers with increasing numbers of accidents drives outside calls for regulation of the sport.
> I think there's a difference between maritime and aviation incidents and incidents on hills.
Not necessarily so. The change in safety culture in the aviation industry came directly as a response to accidents and an existing culture of stiff upper lip, keep it under your hat, don't question - particularly in the military. Sadly, the same culture is replicated here to a substantial degree by a strong pressure not to ask questions following an accident (out of respect I assume). What could be more respectful than working to ensure a death or injury wasn't repeated?
Back in NZ, as soon as your medical was undertaken, even for a student pilot, either quarterly or monthly a cheap rag arrived in the mail. It summarised each and every accident, from a microlight's near miss with a sheep on a farmer's field to un-contained engine failure on 747. This was largely pre-internet, so the summary of these accidents is easier now. Regulation was a side issue and reporting was never for punitive reasons.
Most importantly, far from being invasive of privacy, the reporting is anonymous and not coerced. It created an organic safety culture where reporting and analysis were seen as positive. Official bodies were created as a response to accidents, and far from regulating the free, open and frank review changed behaviour in a much more subtle way.
We are probably all members of the BMC, and I am surprised the BMC hasn't been more active in this area. As it happens, the only real sources of guidance we have here are professional courses (which few wish or can afford to undertake), books (often contradictory depending on current fashion) or discussion here on UKC (interesting, but not ideal). All vary in quality and direction. While there is likely to never be total agreement, a reasonably detailed account of any accident is likely to be useful. The potential alternative is that increasing numbers of climbers with increasing numbers of accidents drives outside calls for regulation of the sport.
In reply to Talius Brute:
This thread is an illustration of the pathetic, self-important, idiocy that marks the forums on UKC.
Sad cases.
This thread is an illustration of the pathetic, self-important, idiocy that marks the forums on UKC.
Sad cases.
In reply to stunt climber: Lucky escape. Two climbing mates have had winter climbing accidents, both of which happened on non technical ground. Speedy recovery, and I hope you can get your head back into it soon.
Ian.
Ian.
In reply to stunt climber: Good on 'yer mate. You came across well on TV and though I don't know you I am sincerely glad you survived.
In reply to David Martin:
Well there is the fact that pilots need to undertake exams to get their licence and keep up their knowledge on a regularly assessed basis. There is no similar requirement to go hillwalking.
I doubt that very much. There will be thousands of hillwalkers who aren't members of the BMC (especially in Scotland).
And then what? The accident in question was largely down to a matter of judgement - if Adam had been thinking differently, he would have been wearing crampons already and carrying an axe. However, based on his experience, he chose not to in this case. He may change his decision making processes in the future, but if he hadn't slipped, he'd have carried on having a fine day out and nothing would have happened to call his judgement into question. Given that the main cause of MRT callouts is 'slips', I'm not sure how detailed accounts of every accident are going to make much of a difference.
>
> Not necessarily so.
> Not necessarily so.
Well there is the fact that pilots need to undertake exams to get their licence and keep up their knowledge on a regularly assessed basis. There is no similar requirement to go hillwalking.
>
> We are probably all members of the BMC,
> We are probably all members of the BMC,
I doubt that very much. There will be thousands of hillwalkers who aren't members of the BMC (especially in Scotland).
> While there is likely to never be total agreement, a reasonably detailed account of any accident is likely to be useful.
And then what? The accident in question was largely down to a matter of judgement - if Adam had been thinking differently, he would have been wearing crampons already and carrying an axe. However, based on his experience, he chose not to in this case. He may change his decision making processes in the future, but if he hadn't slipped, he'd have carried on having a fine day out and nothing would have happened to call his judgement into question. Given that the main cause of MRT callouts is 'slips', I'm not sure how detailed accounts of every accident are going to make much of a difference.
In reply to Toreador:
Yes. Insane giggling and hyperacivity are other common responses. Choice of username may be symptomatic.
> (In reply to stupot)
> [...]
>
> If you're ever unlucky/lucky enough to have and survive a similar accident, then you may well change your tune. My response to my own brush with the reaper was to create a fake video of the accident complete with copious Monty Python style blood
>
> Humour is often a good way of dealing with traumatic events.
> [...]
>
> If you're ever unlucky/lucky enough to have and survive a similar accident, then you may well change your tune. My response to my own brush with the reaper was to create a fake video of the accident complete with copious Monty Python style blood
>
> Humour is often a good way of dealing with traumatic events.
Yes. Insane giggling and hyperacivity are other common responses. Choice of username may be symptomatic.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Why stop there? Surely it would be safer to keep your helmet on when driving your car. After all, the journey to and from your walk will be, for most people, by far the riskiest part of the day.
> I go out winter or summer walking with a helmet on, usually from the moment I leave the roadside.
Why stop there? Surely it would be safer to keep your helmet on when driving your car. After all, the journey to and from your walk will be, for most people, by far the riskiest part of the day.
I'm sorry guys but this is really quite amusing. How do you find so much to write about a single topic? Does no one ever go and see the real world beyond the couch and computer screen?
Stupot, my comments were never meant to be flipant. Obviously what happened to me was a serious matter. Would a helmet of helped, probably not in this instance. What did help was having a huge fully packed ruck sack but I'm far from going to suggest we start wearing the biggest rucksacks we can find in order to protect our backs. I do wear a helmet when climbing, cycling, ice climbing, mountain biking, canyoning, caving, white water kayaking, and....... sometimes on expeditions where the conditions dictate that it would be reasonable to do so.
If folk are gona get all het up about making sure we wear helmets if we walk in the hills then I'd suggest you look at our whole daily life. There is probably greater risk of injury when driving into the hills. Does this mean we should wear helmets whilst driving. And don't forget accidents in the homes, I trust everyone lives in a bungalow due to the hazard of the stairs?
Again, not intended to be flipant. But it is wrong to focus safety just on the one incident. If you are truly concerned about safety then consideration should be given to a much wider field to put the incident into perspective.
Thanks for all the positive comments too. All being well I should be out in the hills again by next weekend.
All the best
Adam
Stupot, my comments were never meant to be flipant. Obviously what happened to me was a serious matter. Would a helmet of helped, probably not in this instance. What did help was having a huge fully packed ruck sack but I'm far from going to suggest we start wearing the biggest rucksacks we can find in order to protect our backs. I do wear a helmet when climbing, cycling, ice climbing, mountain biking, canyoning, caving, white water kayaking, and....... sometimes on expeditions where the conditions dictate that it would be reasonable to do so.
If folk are gona get all het up about making sure we wear helmets if we walk in the hills then I'd suggest you look at our whole daily life. There is probably greater risk of injury when driving into the hills. Does this mean we should wear helmets whilst driving. And don't forget accidents in the homes, I trust everyone lives in a bungalow due to the hazard of the stairs?
Again, not intended to be flipant. But it is wrong to focus safety just on the one incident. If you are truly concerned about safety then consideration should be given to a much wider field to put the incident into perspective.
Thanks for all the positive comments too. All being well I should be out in the hills again by next weekend.
All the best
Adam
In reply to stunt climber:
Check back at the weekend, the forums will be deserted...
OK, check back after the weekend then
> Does no one ever go and see the real world beyond the couch and computer screen?
Check back at the weekend, the forums will be deserted...
> All being well I should be out in the hills again by next weekend.
OK, check back after the weekend then
In reply to flaneur:
Nice to see someone like minded.
Those shower trays can be reall slippy too, so perhaps padded sumo suits should be worn during showers?
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
>
> [...]
>
> Why stop there? Surely it would be safer to keep your helmet on when driving your car. After all, the journey to and from your walk will be, for most people, by far the riskiest part of the day.
>
> [...]
>
> Why stop there? Surely it would be safer to keep your helmet on when driving your car. After all, the journey to and from your walk will be, for most people, by far the riskiest part of the day.
Nice to see someone like minded.
Those shower trays can be reall slippy too, so perhaps padded sumo suits should be worn during showers?
In reply to Toreador:
Looking for the 'like' button to click on regarding your comments
> (In reply to stunt climber)
>
> [...]
>
> Check back at the weekend, the forums will be deserted...
>
> [...]
>
> OK, check back after the weekend then
>
> [...]
>
> Check back at the weekend, the forums will be deserted...
>
> [...]
>
> OK, check back after the weekend then
Looking for the 'like' button to click on regarding your comments
In reply to stunt climber: Aye - nice to see some perspective. Glad you're planning on being back out there so soon, I walked up Ben Nevis myself just two weeks to the day after having a brain tumour removed. Fresh air and the hills makes most things alright.
Best of luck with the Everest trip... although I'm sure you'll have luck on your side.
Kelvin
Best of luck with the Everest trip... although I'm sure you'll have luck on your side.
Kelvin
In reply to David Martin:
So then, in a hypothetical helicopter crash where the vehicule was known to have reliability issues and flown in terrible conditions, the pilots would never end up getting totally blamed and we would learn? Or in a hypothetical plane with a control issue which overruled non-standard manouveres required whilst showing off in airshow and hence caused a crash, the pilot would'nt get totally blamed and we would learn.
So then, in a hypothetical helicopter crash where the vehicule was known to have reliability issues and flown in terrible conditions, the pilots would never end up getting totally blamed and we would learn? Or in a hypothetical plane with a control issue which overruled non-standard manouveres required whilst showing off in airshow and hence caused a crash, the pilot would'nt get totally blamed and we would learn.
In reply to Talius Brute:
Once when descending some steep ground, made the decision to keep my crampons ON. Slipped. Slid. Crampons caught on ice, shattered my leg.
Without crampons, I maybe would still have slipped, but I wouldn't have broken my leg.
Once when descending some steep ground, made the decision to keep my crampons ON. Slipped. Slid. Crampons caught on ice, shattered my leg.
Without crampons, I maybe would still have slipped, but I wouldn't have broken my leg.
In reply to tony:
Like I said, the accident reports cover an entire range of aviation, the vast majority concerning light-aircraft where little more than the equivalent of a drivers license (if even that) was required. Even where no regulation exists, as in climbing, I don't see why that should prevent a more open and centralised safety reporting culture.
Likewise, what better tool to keep knowledge up to date than short sharp reminders of what caused last months injuries?
At the same time, I know a great many climbers who are BMC covered. Go to Cheddar and one has no choice, which is probably a reminder of the kind of regulation that may appear if accidents reach a certain level. However, I merely mentioned the BMC to highlight the fact that an oversight organisation, to which many of us are members, already exists.
I disagree. The safety circular I received contained no more than a short couple of paragraphs per incident highlighting the essentials, with references to further information where required. The entire booklet could be skimmed through in a matter of minutes as it was arranged relevant to the sector. Simply getting a feel for where, why or what the recurring factors were in most accidents was incredibly insightful and often surprising (fatigue, weather, sloppyness or issues you wouldn't normally consider safety oriented featured highly).
There was no need to be ghoulish, even where fatalities occurred, it simply helped focus the mind and served as a reminder to all to be careful. Interestingly, my local climbing wall recently started something similar - a prominently posted monthly chart highlighting the causes behind most accidents/incidents.
It is easy to miss where particular risk exists given climbing usually contains an element of continuous risk. While accidents will always occur it would be a shame to think that people are being maimed or killed simply because the primary accident reporting tool at our disposal is nothing more than an informal message board - one that will discourage by virtue of its inevitable flame-wars or mislead by well-meant but ill-considered advice.
> Well there is the fact that pilots need to undertake exams to get their licence and keep up their knowledge on a regularly assessed basis. There is no similar requirement to go hillwalking.
Like I said, the accident reports cover an entire range of aviation, the vast majority concerning light-aircraft where little more than the equivalent of a drivers license (if even that) was required. Even where no regulation exists, as in climbing, I don't see why that should prevent a more open and centralised safety reporting culture.
Likewise, what better tool to keep knowledge up to date than short sharp reminders of what caused last months injuries?
> I doubt that very much. There will be thousands of hillwalkers who aren't members of the BMC (especially in Scotland).
At the same time, I know a great many climbers who are BMC covered. Go to Cheddar and one has no choice, which is probably a reminder of the kind of regulation that may appear if accidents reach a certain level. However, I merely mentioned the BMC to highlight the fact that an oversight organisation, to which many of us are members, already exists.
> I'm not sure how detailed accounts of every accident are going to make much of a difference.
I disagree. The safety circular I received contained no more than a short couple of paragraphs per incident highlighting the essentials, with references to further information where required. The entire booklet could be skimmed through in a matter of minutes as it was arranged relevant to the sector. Simply getting a feel for where, why or what the recurring factors were in most accidents was incredibly insightful and often surprising (fatigue, weather, sloppyness or issues you wouldn't normally consider safety oriented featured highly).
There was no need to be ghoulish, even where fatalities occurred, it simply helped focus the mind and served as a reminder to all to be careful. Interestingly, my local climbing wall recently started something similar - a prominently posted monthly chart highlighting the causes behind most accidents/incidents.
It is easy to miss where particular risk exists given climbing usually contains an element of continuous risk. While accidents will always occur it would be a shame to think that people are being maimed or killed simply because the primary accident reporting tool at our disposal is nothing more than an informal message board - one that will discourage by virtue of its inevitable flame-wars or mislead by well-meant but ill-considered advice.
In reply to Offwidth:
Both ZD576 and the Mulhouse-Habsheim findings (among others) are particularly interesting in their attribution of blame. The ramifications were serious, the former to a point where it has potentially undermined safety given the outcome and this being one of the many arguments that keep bringing the case to air. However, I hardly expect that Petzl, Wild Country or any other manufacturer quite has the political clout of the MoD or Airbus to push for blame where it shouldn't otherwise be attributed.
The open reporting culture is the issue and if you are in any way connected with aviation you would be well aware that the industry at large is very protective of this culture (consider the strenuous opposition to FDR disclosure).
Is it perfect? No. But it's a hell of a lot better than the culture that existed, one which bears an uncanny resemblance to that in which we participate.
Both ZD576 and the Mulhouse-Habsheim findings (among others) are particularly interesting in their attribution of blame. The ramifications were serious, the former to a point where it has potentially undermined safety given the outcome and this being one of the many arguments that keep bringing the case to air. However, I hardly expect that Petzl, Wild Country or any other manufacturer quite has the political clout of the MoD or Airbus to push for blame where it shouldn't otherwise be attributed.
The open reporting culture is the issue and if you are in any way connected with aviation you would be well aware that the industry at large is very protective of this culture (consider the strenuous opposition to FDR disclosure).
Is it perfect? No. But it's a hell of a lot better than the culture that existed, one which bears an uncanny resemblance to that in which we participate.
In reply to David Martin:
An imperfect system exists despite excellent funding, common expert knowledge of the imperfect examples, good technological recording (black box, ATC etc) and a 'safety first' attitude... just shows how difficult things can be.
Climbing accident reporting will never attract high funding, is not 'safety first' and problems will usually occur with no clear record. Having said that I think it would be useful to see an anonymised Yosemite like analysis applied to UK deaths and serious accidents, but who pays?
An imperfect system exists despite excellent funding, common expert knowledge of the imperfect examples, good technological recording (black box, ATC etc) and a 'safety first' attitude... just shows how difficult things can be.
Climbing accident reporting will never attract high funding, is not 'safety first' and problems will usually occur with no clear record. Having said that I think it would be useful to see an anonymised Yosemite like analysis applied to UK deaths and serious accidents, but who pays?
In reply to Offwidth:
In Scotland, the rigourous investigation of mountain accidents is rare. Police establish required details about fatalities and investigate to a certain point and that point seems to be when it is clear that the occurrence was accidental and involved a recreational hill-user. It is normally the case that only mountain accidents that involve the death of persons in the course of their employment are investigated further. That category is deemed to include mountain rescue team members during rescue operations. In these cases, the Procurator fiscal conducts an investigation and presents this before a Sheriff at a Fatal Accident Inquiry, which in rare British foray into inquisitorial judicial hearing.
http://www.copfs.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Publications/Resource/Doc/9/000...
In almost all other instances of fatality, the information recorded by police forces and mountain rescue teams is regarded as sufficient to explain the death. Occasionally, it is deemed in the public interest to hold an FAI for other fatal accidents. There is no similar mechanism for investigation of non-fatal mountain accidents.
Information about all reported mountain accidents is collected by MRT and passed to the MRCofS statistician. A certain level of analysis is done within the MRCofS system. Increasingly, MRT publish outline information about callouts on their websites. UKC posters have previously asked for more such information so that they can learn from having a better understanding of mountain accidents.
The mountain safety brief is held by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) and they provide advice and drive research in that field. These are the people who have the big picture of Scottish mountain accidents, where they happen, who they are happening to, what caused them and what advice is necessary to minimise further accidents.
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2078
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/mountainsafety/heather%20morning%20profile.p...
The Scottish Government will often make an announcement promoting mountain safety each winter.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/11/26200345
There is a strong culture of privacy in Scottish Mountain Rescue and the agencies they work with. Information directly from Scottish MRT or police tends to stick to the facts of what was observed and to limit information that might compromise a casualty's privacy or indicate blame. I update an MR website with such information and, realising that it has not yet been through the MRCofS 'filter', I tend to use a fairly heavy edit. All this means that information will not come from Police or MRT in an uncontrolled way.
The situation for England, Wales and Northern Ireland will differ for investigations of fatalities but aspects of reporting and privacy may be similar.
If you believe that any of this has to change then the MCofS should probably be your first stop. If more detail of specific accidents is thought necessary then police, through the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland), will be key to the release of information. It is unlikely that MRT or MRCofS will change current practice without a lead from ACPOS. Research tends to be MCofS business but funding is crucial. Aspects involving government action including procurator and judicial procedures is the business of the Justice Department and the Minister for Community Safety is currently Fergus Ewing (mountaineer and former MR guy).
Back at UKC, a huge amount can be achieved by being open and honest about things that happen. Stuntclimber's contribution is important. In the past we have also had contributions from bereaved families and my recollection is that they tend to have a respect for our need to make ourselves safer.
This is a risk activity that makes us feel intensely alive. Let's feel intensely alive for as long as we can.
In Scotland, the rigourous investigation of mountain accidents is rare. Police establish required details about fatalities and investigate to a certain point and that point seems to be when it is clear that the occurrence was accidental and involved a recreational hill-user. It is normally the case that only mountain accidents that involve the death of persons in the course of their employment are investigated further. That category is deemed to include mountain rescue team members during rescue operations. In these cases, the Procurator fiscal conducts an investigation and presents this before a Sheriff at a Fatal Accident Inquiry, which in rare British foray into inquisitorial judicial hearing.
http://www.copfs.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Publications/Resource/Doc/9/000...
In almost all other instances of fatality, the information recorded by police forces and mountain rescue teams is regarded as sufficient to explain the death. Occasionally, it is deemed in the public interest to hold an FAI for other fatal accidents. There is no similar mechanism for investigation of non-fatal mountain accidents.
Information about all reported mountain accidents is collected by MRT and passed to the MRCofS statistician. A certain level of analysis is done within the MRCofS system. Increasingly, MRT publish outline information about callouts on their websites. UKC posters have previously asked for more such information so that they can learn from having a better understanding of mountain accidents.
The mountain safety brief is held by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) and they provide advice and drive research in that field. These are the people who have the big picture of Scottish mountain accidents, where they happen, who they are happening to, what caused them and what advice is necessary to minimise further accidents.
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2078
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/mountainsafety/heather%20morning%20profile.p...
The Scottish Government will often make an announcement promoting mountain safety each winter.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/11/26200345
There is a strong culture of privacy in Scottish Mountain Rescue and the agencies they work with. Information directly from Scottish MRT or police tends to stick to the facts of what was observed and to limit information that might compromise a casualty's privacy or indicate blame. I update an MR website with such information and, realising that it has not yet been through the MRCofS 'filter', I tend to use a fairly heavy edit. All this means that information will not come from Police or MRT in an uncontrolled way.
The situation for England, Wales and Northern Ireland will differ for investigations of fatalities but aspects of reporting and privacy may be similar.
If you believe that any of this has to change then the MCofS should probably be your first stop. If more detail of specific accidents is thought necessary then police, through the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland), will be key to the release of information. It is unlikely that MRT or MRCofS will change current practice without a lead from ACPOS. Research tends to be MCofS business but funding is crucial. Aspects involving government action including procurator and judicial procedures is the business of the Justice Department and the Minister for Community Safety is currently Fergus Ewing (mountaineer and former MR guy).
Back at UKC, a huge amount can be achieved by being open and honest about things that happen. Stuntclimber's contribution is important. In the past we have also had contributions from bereaved families and my recollection is that they tend to have a respect for our need to make ourselves safer.
This is a risk activity that makes us feel intensely alive. Let's feel intensely alive for as long as we can.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Thanks for that Jim very useful. Like Iain I'm less worried about discussions on threads where the climber has escaped without too serious an injury. I'm very pleased Stuntclimber came on (less so at the way some of the accusations were thrown at him, but hey its an open forum). The tension in 'feeling intensely alive as long as we can' is that it relies on keeping the risk in the activity, but decision making with respect to that risk in an appropriate way.
Thanks for that Jim very useful. Like Iain I'm less worried about discussions on threads where the climber has escaped without too serious an injury. I'm very pleased Stuntclimber came on (less so at the way some of the accusations were thrown at him, but hey its an open forum). The tension in 'feeling intensely alive as long as we can' is that it relies on keeping the risk in the activity, but decision making with respect to that risk in an appropriate way.
In reply to Talius Brute: Very lucky guy !
A lovely end to something that could have had a very different outcome.
http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2011/02/22/reunion-with-rescuers-for-man-w...
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