UKC

What's the thinnest you can go for a tag line? Any experiences with them?

I've never used one, but could be tempted.

Any tips on abbing with them?

(From people who have actually used them please!)

Thanks,

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Used 50m reel of 7mm mammaut accessory cord, but never as a 'double rope' absiel, always abseiled on the single rope and retrieved it on the tab line. tied the end of the single rope with an alpine butterfly as it loads both ways and is easy to undo, then clipped the single rope with a screwgate that was clipped to itself.

Tag line was also tied to biner. If the tag lined failed the ab was always safe.

Could have used thinner but not sure about abrasion damage.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:


The only limit to thinness is as to how much pain you are willing to withstand when yanking on it.

7mm is ok to pull on but a bit on the heavy side, 5mm hurts as hell when dealing with stubborn abseils, 6mm is middle ground.

Anything lower than 5mm may not be strong enough if you need tie a loop and jump on it using your foot, which due to the stretch of even supposedly static ropes you'll have to do.
Avoid classic nylon cord for the same reason, and if the ground you'll be abseiling is not steep enough or has many rope-catching features forgo it altogether and use a classic double rope abseil. A tag line is too light to flick the rope from below.

Also, go for a stiff cord and dry treat it, otherwise the risk of falling by downclimbing will feel more appealing than spending another 25 minutes undoing impossible knots that magically appear every 5 metres or so.

A good belay/work/leather glove for pulling the line is a good thing to carry and will allow you to go thinner.

>

If you are still in Cham have a chat with Jon, he uses them regularly. Otherwise have a UKC search...
(Brief chat about it here http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=442823&v=1#x6224111)

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I've used a 5.5mm dyneema line, but only on a couple of occasions. Seemed good, stiffer, less stretchy and stronger than nylon. Know someone who has (very carefully) rapped on this alone, but care needed due to low friction and low melting point!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:



Dental floss. Allegedly and this in no way constitutes advice.

Have used 5.5 dyneema and 7mm accessory cord as abseil retrieval line. Found the static 5.5 easier to pull with. Used this set-up on long rock routes, with a 9.2 single as lead rope it's a pretty light set-up.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Wot he ^^ said

We used 6mm but for retrieval, not abseil.

If I had to ab the tow, I'd probably lower the first person on the full rope and get them to tie off the thin line, then ab the full rope myself; I wouldn't ab the pair.

In reply to flaneur:

How do people find pulling the ropes compared to twin ropes?

In reply to JJL:

I heard reports in the 50s of forces people abbing out of a helicopter for 200ft on 5/8 nylon line, SINGLE. No idea of the truth in it but they said there was an incentive not to stop halfway down.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I have used 5mm static and 6mm normal both as pull lines.
The 5mm was too thin and really cut into my hands on the pull. 6mm was much better.

The main problem with a pull line is that you can't get the knot over any edge that is just below the chains. This together with the big knot and krab means you may have to pull very hard, which is difficult. See the fish products site for a better way to tie the knot - but use a screw gate.

6mm together with an 9mm single works fine for a normal double ab down slabs. Just go slow and tie knots in the end of the ropes (or to your harness). On overhangs it is difficult to stop the 6mm sliding faster in the plate and hence slipping through the chains. (This is something I would have thought someone could sort with a plate with two different sized holes - some of the old ones had this.)

PS. I weight 9 1/2 stone.

In reply to David Coley:

Make sure you have some type of rope clamp that will work on the tag line.

I've used 6mm + 7mm with 8.5mm . The 7mm was far better for the nerves, not tangling and pulling down.
To reduce the differential slippage I found using only one hole of an old DMM bettabrake worked OK.

So did I when I was about thirteen.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Some more thoughts on tag lines.
I have used 28m of 7mm and 25m of 8.5mm for soloing Alpine routes.
Using 6 or 7mm allows the two ropes to be knotted together conventionally with the thin rope through the anchor for abbing. Not technically a tag line.
However, think what might happen if the abseil ropes jam. If you are pulling the tag line, no structural rope may be available to protect climbing back up to clear the jam (nightmare scenario!!).
Pulling the thicker rope down first obviously gives the safest options if you have problems on the rope pull.

There have also been homemade modifications (and a French commercial model) to karabiner type devices which release from the ab point with a tug on the tag line. These never became popular!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

i use 6mm edelrid. doesnt tangle as consistantly as 5mm it seems and im happier using it as v-threads when needed.
i with everyone above who avoids abseiling on it. stick to the main rope. aside from the difference in diameters and dynamic properties, some cord has a much lower melting temperature, and tho i cant remember the numbers or even how real the risk is (tho ive done my own backyard tests and it takes a lot less to melt thru cord than it does rope) i negate the stress and just dont.
abseiling on an atc/reverso doesnt seem to dissipate heat as well as with an 8, and using a tag line tends to mean its a long drop, so im not into it (read: scared).

sutty mentions military use of thin static: they still do use 6mm heat resistant stuff for egress kits. goes with a little pre-rigged descender and packed in a throw bag. for getting out of buildings etc. SAR teams use them too.
youd want to be wearing gloves...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I bought a reel of about 200m of 6mm in Thailand one year and used it for ages. Only cost about £10 so was quite pleased with it! The main problem that arises the thinner you go is that it seems to get more tangled and kinked (especially in those nasty up draughts on El Cap).

That Mammut cord is pretty good - got a load I can do you a deal on if you want...

In reply to Everyone:

Thanks everyone.

I borrowed a tag line from a friend and used it the other week. It was a 4mm one, so definitely on the thin side, but was fine.

Anyway, it was pretty much as I thought. They have limitations, but are great for saving weight.

I would use one again in very specific circumstances, but would generally opt for double super-skinny ropes if I planned to do multiple abseils through alpine terrain.

They certainly have a place though.

Cheers,

Jack

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:


I need 50m - what type is it - how much?

E

In reply to Enty: 50% of whatever retail is...

Roughly 60p per metre??

It's that pro cord stuff - combo of rope and tape webbing.

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Did you get my email Tom?

E