UKC

So you find a problem with a good hold or two on it. But the holds have small but very sharp little flanges on the edges that rip flappers.

Where it would not change the nature or size of the hold is it acceptable to just to knock them off.

In reply to FH: no

In reply to FH:

Yes.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Please dont treat it as a closed question, give a reasoned argument why not.

In reply to FH: thin end of the wedge...don't chip rock, it's as simple as that...what's 'just enough to make it comfy' to you might not be enough to someone else so they chip it some more to make it comfy for them...and evidence of chipping is enough to encourage others, it makes it 'alright'...don't do it...

In reply to jon:

And your argument is what Jon?

In reply to FH:

Sharp edges are painful and unpleasant to climb on. Knock them off and you might have a good boulder problem.

In reply to FH: NO

1) We are supposed to try and inflict as little change to the rock we climb on as possible.

2) For me climbing is about trying to climb a rock using its natural features the pain of the sharp holds is all part of the challenge therefore removing it is making the problem easier.

In reply to Ming:

We climb because we enjoy it. If there is a boulder problem with sharp holds that very few *(if any) people would enjoy, it makes sense to knock off the sharp edges so that it becomes more enjoyable. Simple.

In reply to Ian Hill:

But is it "Chipping", as chipping to me is make or improving a hold for the purpose of making climbing progress.

Removing is not "Chipping" as the hold is not improved for the purpose of actual climbing. It just makes it more user friendly.

In reply to FH:
I dont see why u would want to make the holds less painful, as this would then be a different problem, it would be like chipping new holds because u were to short to reach the proper ones!! If you want nice holds, set how u want them, climb indoors then u can chop and change all you like.

In reply to jon:

eventually, when you wear your tips through, grit really hurts too - shoudl we sand it down a bit?

In reply to FH:

And the EXACT difference is.....?

(Feeling a bit guilty about kicking those pebbles off now.)

In reply to FishCake:

That's really not a fair comparison.

In reply to jon: but surely as the route gets climbed, itll round off, if u chizel it down, what if becomes sloping and polished, do you chip it backa gain,

as Ian says once you start, where do u stop?

In reply to jon:

For 'fair' read 'convenient'.

In reply to FH: This si the most blatent case of chipping ever. I cant do a climb cause the holds are too sgarp for my puffy soft fingers. so i'll take a hammer to them so me fingy wingies dont get a hurt and i can do the problem. if i ever see anyone chipping i will castrate them.

In reply to FH: mere semantics...it's changing the rock...don't do it...

In reply to FishCake: no i think u r right, i use to live on the adge of sheffield, I could only climb 3-4 days a week, cause my hands get raw, its just the rock, why change it,

In reply to FH: can't be thinking like that, climbings for hard men, men that bleed everytime they get on a route, wishing that the holds would bite deeper and deeper, climbings not for weak kneed pansies, only for tough bearded mountain men.

In reply to FH:

if this gets done you probably will be killed

In reply to jon:
Very true. So if the rock / climb is not enjoyable because of such sharp edges , then find a bit of rock that doesn't have such nasty little features. Chipping is chipping no matter what your intentions, good or bad. Its a very very dangerous precident to be setting IMHO.

In reply to Graham B:

But all you're doing by knocking a sharp edge off is turning a shit problem into a good problem. Surely that's a good thing?

In reply to FH:

<Where it would not change the nature or size of the hold is it acceptable to just to knock them off.



absolute classic francis brilliant

In reply to Graham B:

It's not chipping though it knocking a couple a sharp edges off. It's more like gardening than actual chipping, just another part of route cleaning.

In reply to FH:


Oh yes it is.

>It's more like gardening than actual chipping, just another part of route cleaning.

Oh no it's not.

In reply to Li'l Zé:
Just out of interest, when everyone on here imagines chipping, do they instinctively imagine gritstone, or does this approaching-holy respect for the rock apply to all rock types??

Do you think that placing warthogs in a Fowleresque sandstone/shale classic is better or worse, or does not constitute chipping at all?

Would you put a wire behind a flake that might snap? If you had a reasonable idea that the flake might snap beforehand and lo-and-behold it did, would that be chipping?

In reply to Li'l Zé:

So if I climbed up past them and kicked them off, as you did with the pebbles, that would be fine as I was in the actual act of climbing.

But to knock them off whilst stood on the ground is wrong.

In reply to FH: doing it as a premeditated act is wrong...the difference between murder and manslaughter...

In reply to FH:

Exactly. Just like placing bolts on the lead. Except kicking those pebbles off improved the route rather than the holds.
Too many VS's in Yorkshire as it is.

In reply to Ian Hill:

I assume you've removed all the artifical holds from Gollum's Cave? Or is that different?

In reply to jon:
I also assume that it wasn't Ian that used a pickaxe to remove the sticky-out sections of limestone on the floor of the cave?!? Although, maybe that's not chipping either??

In reply to jon: removing Crispin's work would probably damage the rock more than leaving it...so on balance it's better to leave them...but that doesn't condone it...

and yes, it's different...

In reply to Li'l Zé:
kicking those pebbles off improved the route rather than the holds.

As would be removing a sharp flange from the edge of a hold. It would improve the route and improve the climbers experince, NOT the hold, and the route would be no easier.

In reply to Ian Hill:

But you don't use them do you? That would certainly be condoning it.

In reply to FH:

I've often removed sharp pebbles and things from some of the grit round here. The way I see it is if you can't do a problem without cutting your fingers, what's the point of it being there?

Most of the time it's fine anyway, and the edge of the crystals just pop off using a swiss-army knife or something, it's only occasionally it leaves a tiny brown hole but that's usually quickly weathered back so it looks ok.

In reply to jon: believe it or not but no, I don't...they're pretty crappy holds texture-wise (early experiments by Crispin, his later stuff was much better) and not comfy...so no, I don't use them...

just like FH doesn't need to use the holds he's talking about if he finds them unpleasant and uncomfy...

In reply to Ian Hill:

I bow down to your ethical purity...

In reply to FH:

But as I said, the onsight aspect of the hold improvement/modification is crucial. And you just can't get that on a boulder problem (or a top-rope).

In reply to FH: This has been going on for years and people have enjoyed the routes without knowing the details. Your mistake was to ask permission.

In reply to Andy Bowler:


The rock doesn't have a point, it just is. Just cause you cant climb it ( or dont want to for whatever reason) doesn't mean that it doesn't add something aesthetically or ecologically to the area.

In reply to Jon :

I agree it might be close to gardening - if they're such fine edges that they would be worn away or broken within the first few ascents then there may be little argument. But if you have to take a hammer to them to remove them then that is no different to chipping in my book.

People who don't put up new problems often don't realise that most things done in the Peak and Yorkshire have been made more comfortable in this way.

How do you think we've got so many great classic problems? By accident?

In reply to jon/Ian Hill:
I don't believe the question about using a pick-axe on the crag was answered was it??

In reply to Andy Robinson:

Yeh but thats limestone, who cares.

In reply to jon:

A deeply flawed argument I think. 'We' don't climb so that other people can enjoy it. Very alturistic of you but suspect. You change the nature of a hold for your benefit..its purely selfish.

In reply to AndyM:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Nobody enjoys pulling on sharp-edged holds, so surely removing the sharp edges is of benefit to everyone?

In reply to jon:

Exactly! What's the point of going to the trouble of doing new routes/problems if nobody else will ever do them becuase the holds are too painful to use?

Climing is for fun, not for suffering.

In reply to jon: What's the point? If you don't like climbing it because the holds are sharp, climb something else.

In reply to Glen:


It might turn a crap problem into a great problem?

In reply to jon:

See Andy Bowlers reply for same suspect argument. don't think climbers do new routes/problems for other people.

In reply to jon:

So? There are plenty of great problems which don't require chipping. A problem I once created had very sharp holds. I just climbed it anyway and put up with the holes in my fingers. I still enjoyed it and others may too.

In reply to FH:

I can't believe this topic is even being discussed seriously! NO ONE SHOULD EVER CHIP NATURAL ROCK TO MAKE A CLIMB!

If you pathetic wimps want to change holds to make a climb easier on your marshmellow tip fingers, go to a climbing wall!

In reply to Ant Baker:

Thats the point, it DOES NOT CHANGE THE HOLD, it makes it user friendly ie no massive flappers torn in tips.

Thats why we're not calling it chipping but gardening, as it's more akin to cleaning the rock.

rubbish

In reply to FH: >Where it would not change the nature of the hold


duh !!!!!


FH is a chipper, FH is a chipper, FH is a chipper !!!

In reply to FH: so you're saying that by 'changing' the hold (by removing the nasty sharp bits) you're not actually 'changing' it?

In reply to Ian Hill:

Each hold would have to be looked at seperatly before a cleaning decision could be made.

In reply to FH:

I think that perhaps it is time for you, and your chipping friends, to leave this forum.

You obviously did not read the rules of RT, which states that any chippers discovered on the forum will be castrated.

Thank you for your time and co-operation.

In reply to FH: Alternately, you could lose three stone and then it wouldn't hurt as much when you pull on it !

In reply to Ian Hill:
Ian, do you know who used a pick-axe to remove the limestone 'lumps' at the base of Gollums??

In reply to FH:

I think its OK to knock the edges off. Anyone who thinks is otherwise is "probably" guilty of fundamentalism, in that although they are happy to condemn those who would make a problem more pleasant by judicious means, they are more than happy to lob off their VS's or what have you and smash the gear placements to kingdom come. If that's not damaging rock then what is?

Also this attitude that the rock is somehow "cosmically important" is ridiculous. We are climbers and we climb it. Whether we do it with or without a couple of extra skin-ripping millimetres of rock is wholly unimportant.

In reply to DanMillar: come up to northumberland somewhere like kyloe in and try making the holes nice for yours hands, u wouldnt leave the forest alive, tosser

In reply to FH:
My opinion: dont. Once it's done, it's done, and a supreme act of arrogance that you know how best to treat the rock. Get harder skin. If all you're concerned with is "ooh my poor lickle fingers hurt" you'd better stop climbing now. Just MHO.

In reply to Anonymous:
Nice - well reasoned debate. You must be very proud of your ethical purity?

Well said.

In reply to DanMillar: True, perhaps some people are over the top, but if you start taking little sharp bits off, how can you effectively stop people taking 'a bit more' off. As a said before, don't bother. Just climb something else!

In reply to Glen:
What if there is nothing else - what if all the holds are like that??

In reply to Andy Robinson:

Then learn to climb on them! Accept the challenge, instead of modifying it to your personal weakness.

In reply to kinsei:
Excellent, this is all very educational, so if a hold has an edge that *always* tears your fingers, then you should *learn* to climb on them? Have I got that right?

So, what I want to know is (and you obviously know the answer to this, 'cos you wouldn't just be trotting out a pointless platitude would you), how do you *learn* to climb on very sharp edges that always cut your fingers?

In reply to Andy Robinson:

Christ on a bike.

1) toughen your fingers up so a bit of pointy rock doesn't puncture your skin
2) approach the hold more carefully, you can hold a razor blade by the sharp edges if you are careful about it, but if you're not it'll take your fingers off. With even weight distribution you can lie on a bed of nails, dive on head first and you're dead
3) Use some other part of the hold, avoiding the sharp edge, it's a problem, solve it
4) Use a different hold, if there isn't one, work out how to do the problem without that hold
5) Accept that sometimes the price of a great climb is a little blood. Sometimes in life there are obstacles that cannot be surmounted without a little pain. Learn from that. Don't look for the quick fix.
6) If you're looking for a quick fix, there's probably a path round the side that'll get you to the top a lot quicker. Or return to the climbing wall where you can climb without fear of pointy rocks, friable holds, choss, rockfall, avalanche, or any of the other dangers and difficulties of climbing.

In reply to kinsei: <appreciative applause>

In reply to kinsei:
>Don't look for the quick fix.

I think you're using a euphemism for 'human ingenuity'. It may not be in the best of 'styles', but it produces the goods. As has happened many times in the past, and hopefully ijn the future - 'rules' are bent/broken to our benefit. Top-rope practice of new lines, the 'bomber' (it wasn't originally) nut slot on Strapadictomy, brushing holds, using chalk,...Taking a sharp edge of a hold is fair play.

In reply to DanM: So I see where moaning about sharp holds, what about tiny slate "razor" crimps? If you crimp them to hard you'll slash ya tips to shreds, so what do you do? thats right, adapt ya style. A chappie before said something along the lines of - dont chip / change Natural rock, Sod that DONT CHIP/REMOVE SHARP BITS OF ANY ROCK!

There's a boulder problem in north wales that had a sharp little spike on a steep sloper which made the hold more hangable. Untill a young Matt D came along and "made it more user friendly" and in the process it turned virtualy into a small crimp.

In reply to kinsei:

Sorry, I realise it must be very exasperating for you.


OK, I boulder 2-3 times a week outside - how do I make my fingers tougher?


If the move is a dyno - how do I approach it more *carefully*?? I'm obviously very keen to learn this trick.


What if it's all sharp?


What if there is no other hold?



Thanks for that excellent piece of lifestyle advice.


That's very funny.



Yes, 'cos obviously I spend all my time at the climbing wall.

Thank you for your pearls of wisdom.

In reply to Andy Robinson: just accept that 'your' skin is not tough enough to do this particular problem...you have reached the limit of your genetic potential...don't spoil something for others who are more gifted in the skin department...

In reply to Ian Hill:
A similar situation I guess if you didn't like the landing beneath a boulder problem - I suppose you'd leave it to a better/bolder climber who was able to cope with the problem. You'd certainly never take a pick-axe to it??

People in glasshouses etc. etc......

In reply to Andy Robinson:

<sighs>

at Gollum's there is one boulder remaining proud of the surface towards the left hand side of the cave that you can still fall on if you want to...the other smaller lumps that used to be on the right hand side have been covered over with soil dug out from the bank below the crag...to my knowledge nothing has been pick-axed from the floor

don't chip holds...leave them for someone who can cope with the rock as it is...

Manual labour, playing the bass, anything that lets you build up nice think callouses on your digits.


It's a solution, not necessarily the solution. Still, dyno or no, just because you can't do it at the moment, doesn't mean you won't be able to do it some time in the future. I can't climb E5 slabs, doesn't mean I should bolt a ladder to it cos the rock isn't pointy enough! You can't dyno this hold yet cos it's too pointy. Go away and hone your skills elsewhere. One day you will return and dyno this hold *carefully* and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. When you first learn to jam, you bleed, doesn't mean the crack's wrong, your skills aren't up to the job.


As I said, it's a problem, solve it


"...if there isn't one, work out how to do the problem without that hold"


That's OK.


I know.


I said "return", you might not spend any time at the climbing wall, but if you'd rather alter nature than accept the challenge that nature provides, then a more man-made environment might suit you better.


"Grasshopper, look beyond the game, as you look beneath the surface of the pool to see its depth."

In reply to Ian Hill:
Fair enough.

Who said I was going to chip holds? I'm just interested in testing this seeming maxim that the rock is sacrosanct and that it must not be altered upon pain of death.

Personally, at a well used training venue such as, say, Gollums, I wouldn't see any harm in someone just rounding off a very sharp edge that always cut peoples fingers - the same as I don't mind french sport climbers just taking off the razor edges that you often find inside pocketed french limestone. But I'm obviously a bad person for thinking like this as I don't see it as a big deal.

Obviously, I would be wholly against someone, say, making the sidepull on deliverance into a big incut - that's not what I'm talking about.

In reply to kinsei:
OK, fair enough - I guess we're looking at the same problem from different viewpoints and coming up with different solutions - just because I don't see the problem in the same ethical framework that you do, does that make me 'wrong'?

In reply to Andy Robinson:

if you're chipping the rock - even at Gollum's - then, yes

In reply to Ian Hill:
OK, I guess I would be 'wrong' according to your climbing ethics then if I were to do that then.

I don't suppose we're going to reach any form of compromise here then, as it's a fairly unchangeable viewpoint that the rock must not be altered in any way whatsoever - I guess I just don't see it that way.

In reply to Andy Robinson:
That point is that you can't go and restore the rock to what it was like before you altered it. So, whatever you do to it, you are deciding for the whole climbing community, now and in the future (for I, my kids, their kids, etc have as much right to climb on this problem as you do).

What right do you have to do that? What makes you so special that you know best for all climbers now and in the future? It might seem an insignificant small little bit of rock now, but given that we haven't got an endless supply of it in the UK, it can never be insignificant.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Sorry to bring this up again, but didn't you write this (below) only a couple of days ago? Have I misinterpreted this??

by - Ian Hill on - 16:42 Wed
In reply to Woker: true enough re Gollum's...I've had a fractured skull there in pre-mat days and a broken pelvis when the mat blew away another time...there's only one sticky-up rock there now though after I took a pick to some of the others a couple of years back...

In reply to Jon Read:
You do realise that we're talking hypothetically here? I am genuinely interested in gauging other climbers views on these commonly held maxims that are constantly bandied around amongst climbers - wire brushes are evil, modification of the rock is strictly forbidden etc.

Do you really, honestly believe that rounding off a very sharp edge (you could probably use the sole of your shoe to do it - I'm not even thinking about a hammer) that cuts fingers, at a crag that is used as a training venue is a heinous crime that is stealing from all future generations? Is all rock, irrespective of its quality or location, so sacrosanct, that any alteration, in whatever form, is absolutely unthinkable?

If your answer to that is yes, then I guess I just can't see climbing in such black and white terms......

In reply to Andy Robinson: I think you've had enough to drink and should go home if you've resorted to searching other threads for evidence...

the full story then...

when several of us were using Gollum's a lot in 1999/2000 the rocks on the floor were irritating not because you could fall on them - we had lots of mats available after all so bravery and boldness weren't issues - but because they stopped mats sitting flat...we discussed different ways of covering them including bringing in a load of bark to raise the level of the ground and putting in scaffold supported plank at the front of the cave to hold more earth in...all were rejected as not being worthwhile in such a shitty little hole...so the next thing was to see if the lumps of rock were attached or if they were loose boulders that could be moved out of the way...spades and picks were brought down to dig around the lumps and it quickly became clear that these were parts of the bedrock so we brought soil up from down the slope to cover them up and at the same time dug out the soil at the base of the crag to stop all the foot scraping on the sit starts...

don't chip the rock...leave it for someone with the ability to climb it as it is...

In reply to Ian Hill:
I wish I had been drinking.

Look, I just remembered that I'd read 'pick' and 'Gollums' being used in the same sentence - if I inferred the wrong meaning from that then I apologise - i just thought it pertinent to the discussion. I shan't mention it again.

In reply to FH:

Apparently, it's fine if your initials are JM and you're trying a new problem at Eagle Tor.

In reply to FH:

razor edges? very sharp poclets? u do want u want and u do it well, but u don't tell.

M

In reply to Andy Robinson:
I think I am not fundamental about many things, but I am utterly absolutely dead-set against anyone deliberately changing the nature of rock for climbing purposes. So, my answer is yes.

I know that other people do it, and some others hail this as progress or acceptable, but I will never do it and will never ever support such action. I am glad, however that you are seriously thinking about the issue, rather than just setting off with lump-hammer, or kicking it. I urge you to delay action and think some more about this problem and also about why you climb, and what it is about rock that makes it enjoyable to climb on (as opposed to man-made stuff), sharp hold or not.

As an additional point, slate has an awful lot of sharp holds on it, as does limestone. Many, many routes use said holds. Do you think a single person can justify altering such holds to facilitate their ablility to climb a route? If it's an unclimbed problem? What about if its on a classic route that has been ascended 100s of times? Is that off limits? Or fair game?

In reply to Jon Read:
Fair point and nicely put - it's refreshing to read some consideration of the matter. As a I said before, it's hypothetical, and as I don't live in the UK, I won't be wielding a lump hammer down at the plantation!

Just out of interest - how would you view Fowler et als exploits in the SW (and other places), placing warthogs as pro, or the gogarth explorers levering off large flakes etc. that were slightly 'loose' - shouldn't these be classed as chipping as well? Shouldn't I be allowed the right to climb these routes in their pristine and loose unsanitised versions??

In reply to Jon Read:
so would you climb stuff which any dubious action had happened on? cos, if you did, it may be construed as supporting it.
if you wouldn't, you won't be doing much climbing at all.
or you could check mick ryans' post for a reality dose, get over yourself, & start enjoying things with the rest of us flawed beings.

In reply to Anonymous:


Yip. It really does depend on the situation. On gritstone there would no reason to "comfortize", on limestone maybe, on pocketted volcanic tuff where the line is severly overhanging and the pockets are razor-sharp one and two finger and the climbing has many such moves, and tape doesn't make a difference...!

Well make your own mind up.

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: On gritstone there would no reason to "comfortize",
oh, u sly...u real sly!

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
I think you've hit the nail on the head there - whenever you mention anything on this board, people seem to automatically assume that you're talking about gritstone and then apply their 'gods own rock' hysterical knee-jerk filter.....

There is life beyond the peak.....

In reply to Andy Robinson:
people seem to automatically assume that you're talking about gritstone and then apply their 'gods own rock' hysterical knee-jerk filter.....
o man, the things i've seen...as an irishman, english hypocrisy shouldn't come as too great a shock to u.
cold logic sez this type o thing is chipping; cold logic also sez abortion is murder, but would u really want to see the wild lass from no. 27 get 10 to life? male masturbation could also be construed as mass murder, which'd make this thread genocide.

In reply to Anonymous:

I have never met anyone who was hypocritical, craven, murderous, and, ate babies who was not also English. its true we are the scum of the earth.
cold logic also sez abortion is murder, but would u really want to see the wild lass from no. 27 get 10 to life?
no it doesn't and possibly
male masturbation could also be construed as mass murder, which'd make this thread genocide.
thats just laughable (not the bunch of winkers suggestion)
"every sperm is sacred.."