UKC

A friend and I have been discussing the safety and appropriateness (sp?) of the peg belay at the cave stance on vector p2.

He recently did vector and the pegs are rusty, not hammered in fully and equalsed poorly, leading to dangerous belays from inexperianced leaders.

(I myself just clipped it when I did vector but backed it up after a minute or so when i really looked at it)

So there are 3 options as to what could be done:

1. Leave it. Trad is about making your own decisions.
2. cut the tat and leave the pegs.
3. Remove the pegs, glue in a bomber wire and put a good new peg in and equalise.
4. Remove it and leave it, do we really need an ab station?

I'd go with 3 or 4 its nice to have a lower off but I don't think its necessary, and having a dangerous but sneakily safe looking belay s probably a bad idea.

What do we think?

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Yo. It may need some new tat but the 3 pegs are pretty reasonable, especially all together.

Ed

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Leave it. Why would you want a lower off there? If you did, you'd be missing out the hardest pitch, the best bit of climbing, and a third of the route. This is trad climbing. Why do people keep discussing fixed gear on trad routes? There shouldn't be any fixed gear, if its there its old and you take your own risk in clipping it, we should not be replacing any fixed gear on trad routes. At all.

In reply to bomb: but we could remove it? im more discussing whether it shoud even be there, and whether i would be a better idea to get rid of it all. I do agree with you there, why would you want to ab off?

Boothy; I'm hoping to do cream tomorrow so will take a look at them as I pass...

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Be sure to do the full/original version!

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Glue in a wire?

When has that ever been the answer to anything?

Cut the tat if it's manky, but removing the pegs seems a bit unnecessary and setting up some kind of instant-clip ready equalised belay is a totally ludicrous idea.

With you there Victim - all in line with making your own decisions - gluing things in is tantamount to bolting and we know where that goes.....

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I've not done Vector, but I've come up against in situ gear and tat on a few routes, particularly the Old Man of Stoer. Personally, I'd be in favour of leaving the pegs but stripping the tat. If someone's got to rig their own tat, they're more likely to check the pegs properly, but pegs might be the only protection suitable for that particular application. Leaving pegs in place will damage the rock less than removing them and people putting new ones in on a regular basis.

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Can't recall it being too bad. Didn't Libby Peter do a feature on it for a mag a while ago and use it as an ab station.

How about option 5 : a proper bolted ab station.

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Are british trad ethics written don any where? T

In reply to Duncan Campbell: "Inexperienced leaders"? Up there? Get real. So you backed it up to be happy? Does that not tell you that there is adequate natural gear anyway? Muppet.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

What on earth has it got to do with you how I set up my belays?

Glue in a wire? that one was well thought out.

E

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

You could alway belay at the top of the Ochre Slab on Vector (as the person is in the current Tremadog guide book) instead of the actual "cave belay".

Or just back up the cave belay a nut and cam placement and leave it alone?

It is nothing to do with how you belay.

At the moment there are three manky pegs, two on the left one on the right, equalized together with an old piece of 8mm rope, with a Malion in the middle it. When loaded the anchors are under a quite obtuse angle, which I understand isn't a particularly clever idea as the forces aren't distributed equally.

To my mind, the current set up is clearly an abseil station rather than a belay. I would probably only clip it, just in case, whilst creating my own belay.

The problem is, that I know two relatively inexperienced, albeit rather talented, climbers, who have arrived at the cave cliped into the tat, backed it up with a poorly equalised runned and shouted safe.

I might be being over paranoid and I know there is lots of redundant strength in climbing gear, but I reckon a factor two fall or even a large seconding fall (if the belayer wasn't tight on his anchors) could snap one or more of the pegs.

I'm not sure why it is necessary for there to be an abseil station there in the first place, it does seem rather lazy, BUT if there is going to be one it should be safe.

The reason for gluing in the wire is to stop folk nicking it, which they will if it isn't. It is nothing to do with bolting.

Personally I would like to remove all three current pegs and replace the one left and add a glued in large wire. This is not to create an insitu belay, but to create a safe an sold abseil station. I would equalize it together with piece of rope and mallion.

I hope this makes sense.

What do folk think?

Cheers,

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I think that gluing in a wire is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

E

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The abseil tat is handy should your second fail to negotiate the ochre slab (as happened to me c.1983/4 It makes for an exciting abseil to get the gear back and is not recommended. 8mm tat is overkill though as the in situ pegs are probably the same ones that were joined together with 5mm tat in 1983

In reply to Enty:
I might just take all three out then.

To Nniff. Did you not consider that could easily walk to the top of the crag and abseil directly down the Ochre Slab. A bit of a faff I'm sure, but much safer than jumping around on some rusty bits of mank.

Also if the pegs have been there since at least 1983, do you not think it is worth replacing them?

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Why is there an abseil station halfway up Vector?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


That gluing a wire is a truly awful idea.

If your friends are too careless to check fixed gear before using it then you should be addressing your friends before looking at the gear.

jk

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Not when I'm belayed in the cave and partner is spinning in space somewhere below, and the walk off is one full pitch and a bit higher up and it's 3pm in January.

Prudence would have dicated that the runners at the top of the slab should have been abandoned, but the faff of going sideways first was deemed to be less than the faff of going down and then up and then down again to get them by abseil from the top. However, the swing into space when the runners were retrieved was something I would gladly have foregone - but impoverished climbers and their gear are not easily parted.

As far as replacing the pegs is concerned, I've not been back there for a while. I think most would be alarmed to see how many pegs on inland cliffs have been there since the 70's

In reply to jkarran:

What he said ^^^^^^^^

What a stupid thread with even more stupid suggestions.

E

In reply to Pylon King:

Absolutely - how bizarre!



Chris

In reply to jkarran:

Absolutely. People doing stupid things is not an argument for taking rash (and in the case of gluing in a wire, bizarre) action to reduce the chances of them doing more stupid things, it's an argument for educating them. Or just let natural selection prevail.

Tom, you aren't making any sense. If you're going to pull out the pegs, why not pull out all the pegs at Tremadog (good luck with the one on Poor Man's Peuterey though)? Or all the ones in Wales? Stop and think for a second and perhaps you won't look so much like some kind of crusader for the cause of stupid climbers.

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Here is what I think. Your argument is deeply flawed. a) I would hardly describe a climber who is capable of getting to the cave stance of Vector as inexperienced. b) If someone is inexperienced how do expect them to gain that experience if you and others advocate a policy of creating sanitized stances in the way that you describe. c) It's a stance or belay not an abseil station. d) Keep discussions like this between yourself and your friends, talk like this is slowly pecking away at the long standing, adventurous, ethical tradition of climbing in the UK and putting it at risk.

Al

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I don't think the concept of equipped ab stations is a good one - all trad belays on multipitch are potential ab stations but at the usual cost of your own gear.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I absolutely agree with that.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I did Vector fairly recently and didn't notice any obvious problem with in-situ gear. If there is gear there then from what I recall it can be backed up very, very easily. So, as others have said, there isn't really much to discuss.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:


The real issue here seems to be "inexperienced leaders".

In reply to GrahamD: I think the real issue is people attempting to sanitize trad climbing and remove the concept of personal responsibility and decision making.

Al

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Hi Duncan

Personally, your arguments that an inexperienced leader might lead to a poor belay is rather a moot point. I don't know too many 'inexperienced leader' who could actually gain that stance.

In answer to your question why do we need an abseil station? This belay is awesome for us locals who can climb either Vector or the first couple of pitches of cream, when it is raining, as the rock stays dry below this belay. However getting up any further is problematic. As such it serves a very valid purpose for anyone who wants to climb in those conditions.

The pegs are OK if equalised properly. I have on a couple of occassion renewed the tat, so that it is equalised for an abseil, but not for a belay.

Gluing in a runner is just a stupid idea, and one that I doubt any local will accept. The people using this as a retreat, should have the judgement, if the peg scare you then you can always leave a wire insitu, I have done this before, and that wire wasn't there a week later. As someone had cleaned it up for me.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Just because you have a couple of friends with poor judgement, shouldn't mean that you remove tat. What the hell do they do at gogarth? This might be a good discussion for a BMC meeting.

Like I have said, this is a great venue for raining conditions as you can climb up to this point in the dry. You should try it sometime.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I refer you to my post higher up then - What right have you personally to influence my climbing experience?

E

In reply to Chris Craggs:>

It is well used by locals climbing to the cave either up Cream or vector, as the pitches below stay dry. Excellent fun if the weather is a little damp!

In reply to Enty:


Jebus man, it's not like he's leaving a laminated note attached to a bolt that reads "Enty is a knob"

He's looking to make a dodgy situation safe so no fellow climbers die, hardly what i'd call bad motivation for asking a question.


I dont understand peg ethics, so cant really comment. But it does seem like a bunch of people tend to put their ego before other's safety.

In reply to Kemics:



Well, you know what they say, 'Never let ignorance get in the way of uninformed opinion'

In reply to Duncan Campbell:


Mention anything to do with change on UKC and you will be shot down - it's an ultra conservative place.

If the pegs were removed, people would grumble.
If the pegs were replaced with shiny new ones, people would shout about 'ethics'.
If a nut was glued in, it would get removed or have the wire cut.
If bolts were added there would be a forum lynch mob.

The only thing that will keep the majority happy is leaving everything exactly as it is. Whether that's good or bad on the whole is up for debate.

In this case, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I'm pretty sure I remember belaying off a couple of nuts and a largish cam without even clipping the pegs...

I don't think the climbing community can take responsibility for inexperienced climbers making bad decisions.

In reply to Kemics:
I'd like to decide on whether i'm going to die or not - not Mr. Ripley.

Ego? on a Welsh E2 climbed 50 years ago?

E

In reply to nniff:

Okay let me re-phrase to clarify

I understand the peg debate, but dont understand [i]why[/i] it's a debate. I have my personal ethics but in this case they i think they would run against the grain and would only be inflammatory. But i think it's a very valid opinion that there is a bunch of ego flying round internet forums, where people can talk up all the bravado they want unchecked, so perhaps this isn't the place to reach a consensus decision about what the appropriate 'safe' decision is.


you smug arse

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
You say that as if it were a bad thing. In cases like this it's a good thing. I'm not sure how we would preserve the trad ethic otherwise. Your response seems to be in agreement and your last statement is spot on.

Al

In reply to Enty:

I wonder if you even see the irony in that statement.....

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:



Sometimes I think it is. Most debates about change are stifled by ingrained conservative views and I don't think that's particularly helpful.

However, like you say, when it involves fundamental principles of our climbing heritage - like having a quasi-bolt in the form of a glued in wire - I think change should be approached with caution.

In reply to Kemics:

At least you did

E

In reply to Kemics:


My, aren't we prickly this morning -

It's a debate because there are two or more differing opinions on the same subject.

The very nature of the internet is that people freely express their opinions (or those that it suits them at the time to profess to have). They also expect to encounter opposing views, but the conclusion of such debate is neither balanced nor consensual (Millstone dry toolers excepted).

Participation in this, or any, discussion is not putting ego before others' safety either - although, if you want to go down that line, you could argue that our trad ethics put our collective egos before others' safety.

You seem unwilling to air your personal ethics: given your views on ego and safty, one might deduce that you'd be in favour of bolting the lot.......

In reply to nniff:


Or, more logically, banning climbing.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

FFS. What a stupid idea.

Can the moderators not impose a new rule that no-one who's been climbing less than ten years can post on ethics threads? It really would save a lot of tiresomeness.

jcm

In reply to Duncan Campbell:
interesting post from Mark Reeves - so that solves the question as to why theres an abb station at the Vector stance - just hope it doesnt result in a queue on the next rainy staurday at Tremadog!

In reply to Enty:
About as much right as the person who placed them in the first place.

The tat is pretty manky and needs replacing.

Next time it's raining I think I might head to Tremadog, abseil into the cave remove the pegs and replace them with new. No harm done.

I'm not really on an ethical crusade, or at all really, I just don't want to see anyohe hurt.

To JCM: Grow up!

In reply to The next poster:

Hold that thought, I need to go and get some more popcorn.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

sounds fine to me! i've been climbing 10+ years so my opinion is apparently valid lol.

my ethics can be described as f**k the rock, i don't wana die

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Logical enough, I thought it had become a lower-off/abseil point for some strange reason.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Having been sat in Eric's a couple of years ago during a sudden deluge when a very soggy team came in laughing at how mother nature had given their mate "a good rogering", I can confirm that the Vector slab is not totally immune from a bit of weather...

Tom: If I give you a list of dodgy pegs which might be considered to be "dangerous", will you go round and replace them all? How about those ones at the top of Castell Helen...

Ha ha ha.

In reply to victim of mathematics:
I was just going to take them out... there are two bomber wire placement there.

You'd have to be nuts to abseil strait off those manky pegs.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Last time I was there I think we et up the first abseil rope, and we linked up a bunch of pegs and some of the wires. The next (I think, may have been the third) people just clipped an abseil rope into a couple of the pegs. It does happen.

Its a wierd one that one - there aren't that many good gear placements for setting up multiple ropes without some form of sharing, but some people don't want to just use others' ropes, either because they can't see them to ask (and won't just use them), or because they want the reassurance of their own rope in case of retreat, or whatever. A tricky situation without an especially easy solution I fear.

In terms of the original question, from experience old rotted wires remove more cleanly than old rotted pegs, so if there had to be a station there (and assuming that bolts are never going to be widely accepted) my vote would go to a wire-based solution, with the wires unglued since that just makes replacing them in time a pain.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:
Your topic has generated much discussion on what, in my view is a matter of common sense. Surely a leader, when he arrives at any stance (the Vector cave included ), reviews the protection in place and then backs it up as necessary using his own judgement.
This forum, however, has reminded me that it is fifty years (give or take a few months) since I first climbed Vector - happy days !

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

"Next time it's raining I think I might head to Tremadog, abseil into the cave remove the pegs and replace them with new. No harm done."

Ahem.

I really hope you're just making a misguided attempt at being amusing.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Tom love your enthusiasm, those pegs and that belay at castell helen have been much debated at local BMC meetings. Consensus was to leave them in as well. Although some bolts have turned up from time to time, which have been dutifully removed.

Just so you know, the local climbers debated the abseil stations in the pass, many of which were replaced a couple of years back, it might be worth bring them up again in a meeting, and see whether we can resurrect the North Wales Climbing Action Group (North WaleSCAG) before you go about removing them as well. It might be worth replacing them all again as evening cragging is only a few weeks away.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
It a pretty exciting top rope on two 9mm's tied together, some serious airtime if you come off!

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Ok as some may have guessed, this was a suggestion Tom Ripley had and as I happened to be on UKC at the time and went to try cream today thought I'd post it on UKC.

It seems as though this is a sensitive area to many, and believe me I am all for the British Traditional ethic, I love adventure climbing but by inexperianced leaders I meant people who were capable of climbing E2 (not overly difficult) who would just use it, when I got there last summer, I saw the tat and thought 'hurray! I don't have to think about a belay!' and just clipped in and shouted safe. Once my partner started seconding I thought 'sh*t these pegs might not be brilliant ill just back it up...'

So you can build your own belay out of natural gear. Some people like doing the dryer pitches in the rain then abbing off. Some people are idiots (myself included) and just clip the tat. Its not very nice to look at along with all that chalk...

The conservative view towards ethics is not needed to preserve british trad, surely you can be forward thinking along the lines of the great british trad ethics...ethics are not rules they are more guidelines, or ways of thinking... does UKC not spoil the great british trad ethic?

Anyway, I hope I didn't upset anyone, the pegs aren't that bad but could do with being equalised a bit better...

In reply to JCM: Cant the mods prevent anyone who doesn't even climb any more from posting on anything but historical topics and pub forums? I have as much right as any to DISCUSS ethics etc, I am a keen and active climber, of a moderate standard who climbs 2-3 times a week, is that not enough?

Peace out, Dunc

Send Denny up to the stance with a bicycle crank!!!

In reply to Removed Userboje:


1961... must have been a very early ascent. Then one of the hardest routes in Wales. Serious respect.

Mick

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Bubbles, is the real reason you want to replace the pegs so you can back off safely? =P

Jez

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Bubbles doesn't find completing a route satisfactory. "Epic's" only for him. A 'back of station' is what he's voting for!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Shame the crag isnt a sea cliff venue, maybe a 5m deep salt water trench should be created below?

silly idea... if you must, then cut the tat... but i have done many E2 routes with far worse belay options... there must be hundreds of variations in that cave. the pegs add a bit of history to the route...

if you talk about glueing a nut to stop inexperienced people, then you may as well ban lead climbing and only allow supervised top roping from bolts which are regularly replaced...

if you want easy bomber gear/anchors which are regularly checked so dont require any thought then go indoor climbing.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

>I have as much right as any to DISCUSS ethics etc,

Of course you do. Your views are ill-informed, repetitive and boring, and I don't want to hear them, that's all.

jcm

In reply to Duncan Campbell:
Dangerous belays from inexperienced leaders? You have to do a couple of pitches of E1/2 to get there, so can't be that inexperienced!

I can't remember whether I used the pegs or something else or a combination but I certainly don't remember a dodgy belay. That was only a couple of years ago so the pegs would have been in a similar state.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
No need for an ab station there as it's possible to do a single pitch ab off a tree on one of the neighbouring buttresses, can't remember which one. It's also possible to do a single pitch ab down Vector buttress (I did to retrieve a cam stuck in the Ochre Slab that my second couldn't remove and 60m ropes got me down to the ground) but that's going off some rock gear, I imagine 60m might not be enough if going off a tree further back (which is what you would do if you were to use the ab station?).

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
It's great that you don't want to see anyone hurt. Will you also replace all the other rusting pegs in the country, except where there's adequate modern gear available? Actually, that might rule out replacing the Vector ones...

In reply to Mick Ward:
Thanks Mick - Ron James and I climbed Vector in October of '61, with me leading pitch 2 and Ron leading pitch 3. Prior to our ascent it had been climbed by the likes of Whillans, Crew, Boysen, Smith, Brewster and Yates. In March of '62 I led the whole route with Al Hunt and confirmed my initial opinion that pitch 2 was the hardest. Others disagreed and considered pitch 3 to be the crux - it was certainly the scene of some well publicized falls.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Thanks Mick - Ron James and I climbed Vector in October of '61, with me leading pitch 2 and Ron leading pitch 3. Prior to our ascent it had been climbed by the likes of Whillans, Crew, Boysen, Smith, Brewster and Yates. In March of '62 I led the whole route with Al Hunt and confirmed my initial opinion that pitch 2 was the hardest. Others disagreed and considered pitch 3 to be the crux - it was certainly the scene of some well publicized falls.

In reply to Misha:

There is a myriad of different placement options. Lots of wires and cams.

To JCM: You're views are tedious, pedantic and bigoted and I don't want to hear them.

To boje: I'm very jealous. I bet Vector was even more amazing when it wasn't polished.

Brewster as in the guy who got rescued off the Eiger by Bonington and Whillans? I've never heard much about his climbing.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

How do you decided who still climbs or not?

Is that really fair? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, right?

In reply to Removed Userboje:

A lovely piece of history. Thank you. It must be hard for people today to appreciate what a huge reputation Vector once had. It replaced Cenotaph Corner as the most coveted route in Wales. (And the earlier the ascent, the more kudos!) The famous lob from the top groove claimed many, a young Pete Livesey among them.

There's something quintessentially '60s about Vector. Somehow you just can't imagine it being done before. The name is perfect. The line is absolutely outrageous for its time. There's a sense that climbing had moved on from The Corner and The Gates.

That Mr Brown, eh? He left us some gems.

Mick

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Sounds to me like this is one for the BMC area meeting. I guess its a bit of a local decision really. Being a North Wales based climber for years I'd say that thats where these things should be decided. Being a Bangor student, you could just go and air this point. I can imagine what the response will be though!

In reply to Misha:


FFS no need for an abseil at all because, radical though it might sound, you can climb to the top of the route and walk back down afterwards.

In reply to Mick Ward: Hi Mick. Vector is one of my favourite routes ever. I first did it in about 1972, it still had a reputation even then but that was diminished a short time after when people like Eric Jones and Al Rouse soloed it during that period when it soloing was fashionable. Mid to late seventies I think.

It's a worry that such a classic long established route is seriously being considered as needing "improvement".

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:


It is nothing to do with improvement, I just don't want to see anyone hurt.

Contrary to the views of many on here, there are relatively inexperienced climbers who see three pegs equalised together with a piece of manky rope and treat it like a bolted belay.

If folk want to lead the Ocher Slab on the wet day and then abseil off then great. But why can't the walk up to the top of the crag and abseil into the the cave to the retrieve there anchors after? It's going to take no more than 20 minutes.

How many pegs did Joe Brown place on the first ascent?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I can't help but agree entirely Al. Our opinions Vector seem remarkably similar. It must have been about 1972 that I saw Perrin glide effortlessly up it. He told me it was his twentysomethingth ascent. I did it shortly afterwards and inspired by Jim I climbed it as often as possible and it never disappointed. I decided to climb it once for every year of my life. By the time I left Blighty, I'd climbed it forty two times, so I've got a bit of catching up to do. The only improvement could be a good wash and brush-up.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


One on the Ochre Slab (aid?), one in the final groove (aid?) and the belays in the cave?


Chris

In reply to jon: The moves up from the spike were slippy in 72. It would be interesting to nkow what it was like on the first few ascents. The rock has that polished looking quality so it would not surprise me if it was always a little lacking in friction.

To Tom Ripley: Being concerned for others is very laudible but where would you personaly draw the line.

Al

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Ah Tom, that's a question for Boje. In 1979 Phil Thomas from Cardiff decided that he was going to rid Tremadog of all its pegs. Vector's were the amongst the first to go (apart from the old bent down ring on the ochre slab). He made himself very unpopular. I replaced the one on the traverse to the cave the same year, whilst leading it. I got a really good one in but realised that it could easily be removed again, so I replaced it a bit to the left where it was impossible to get a hammer to the left side of it. Unfortunately it wasn't as good there as in the first placement... but of course I couldn't get it out. We all learn from our mistakes!

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Probably here... I was just slightly concerned last week when I arrived in the cave to discover that what I was belayed too.

To Jon: I can understand why removing pegs in 79 wouldn't be popular. But with micro friends and other modern gear, I don't think they are really necessary.

In reply to jon:

I think I 1st did it in 1971 behind Lew Brown, he insisted we soloed Christmas Curry first to get moving. Friends said I would end up spinning in space and have to be lowered-off - no chance! I suspect I have only done it about a dozen times.


Chris

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The best way to ensure people's safety is not to give any illusion whatsoever that it has been made safe. that way you do not encourage inexperienced climbers out of their depth.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

We had Friends, though not smaller than a size one. We had RP's and stoppers. So not a lot different. I think there are probably quite a few pegs in the UK that are 'unnecessary' - you could say they all are - but that doesn't mean you should just go and remove them. I think, as people have said above, if you are experienced enough to get to the cave you should have the judgement to decide if you are going to rely on the pegs or back them up.

As Chris says, there used to be a peg on the top pitch of Vector. That never got replaced. It was in or near that really good undercut on the crux of that pitch.

In reply to jon:

I did it once with Spenny, it was getting late but we figured there was just enough time. As we headed into the trees there were two guys already in the cave, we assumed they would be long gone, so I was surprised on arriving in the cave and they were still there. One of them grinned "we always get benighted - that's why we carry head-torches".

Eventfully in the blackness Spenny followed the second man up the last pitch (very closely) by getting him to climb slowly and keep flashing the torch back down the pitch!


Chris

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


More fool them. There are plenty of people who place bad gear and tie of saplings as runners too. What's to be done about them.


Why should they have to? There's a perfectly serviceable belay in place that can easily be backed up, why not just leave it at that.

If you must go meddling why not do something constructive, fit some new rope rather than making yourself unpopular over such a non-issue. I really don't see why you have such a bee in your bonnet.

jk

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Cut the tat and leave the pegs.I followed a panicked leader who had clipped just one piece of ancient tat without clipping pegs.Shat myself when I got to the belay and proceeded to clip a few pegs direct to leaders harness with quickdraws and also put in a few cams.

Mitch

In reply to Duncan Campbell:
Having not seen the belay myself for years, just going from this thread, for what its worth i reckon:
Pro's

1. Its hardly adventurous, solitary climbing in a remote location.
2. It makes for a good wet weather option (which north wales is lacking)
3. There is already a belay insitu
4. There is probably an alternative to glueing a nut in
5. Maybe just equalising the pegs well will work

Con's
1. Glueing a wire in would ruin the slot once the wire corrodes and the nut head is stuck in.
2. Leaving your own nut behind its bound to get nicked so it's not a long term option
3. Maybe its just not cricket.
2.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


That's their problem then! If you don't ever want to see anyone get hurt can i suggest you just stay at home with your inexperienced climbing mates where its nice and safe.?

I would just leave pegs in, people will replace tat now and then, as it deteriorates if they wish, and if people dont want to clip the pegs and tat they don't have to as there is other stuff to be had.

In reply to Duncan Campbell and others: I doubt anyone commenting here has actually carried a peg hammer on Vector, at least certainly not in the last few decades. Therefore this is not going to be a particularly informed debate on how good the pegs are.

In the first instance someone should carry up a hammer and give the pegs a moderate tap. Even with a peg hammer you can't do anything resembling a full-proof test but it will at least allow them to get a much better idea of whether the pegs are sound.

Any that aren't good enough to be part of a multi-point lower-off obviously need to removed immediately. Likewise old tat needs to be removed. Otherwise if the pegs are sound moderately sound, they might as well be left.

As others have said, anyone on a multi-pitch E2 will know what they are getting into and it is their responsibility to make appropriate decisions on belays or lower-offs.

On a slightly tangential point. I personally don't believe there is any place for tat halfway up routes on UK mountain crags with walk-offs so I generally remove any I find.

In reply to jon: Phill Thomas. Is he still around? Climbed with him a few times in the mid seventies, top bloke. Removing pegs is the sort of thing he would do . Did Vector in 73, bit slippy even then on the slab. Top pitch technically the hardest.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

I'm sure he's still around. I worked with him ski touring for just one day, some ten years ago. I reminded him of the Tremadog saga and of my part in replacing one of them. I expected a grin or a smile - but he was just as spiky as ever! Obviously the years haven't softened him.

In reply to jon:
Now you are testing me Jon. On pitch 2 I remember a bent ring peg in the centre of the ochre slab and one just before the traverse left to the cave. On pitch 3 I'm not sure - I think there were two pegs as you traversed left round the bulge into the groove, but it may have only been one. Whatever it was it was the same number that Joe used.

In reply to Removed Userboje:

The one thing that's always amazed me is that the old bent ring peg is still there (assuming it is... ). Just think how many people have fallen or pulled on it!

In reply to jon:

It was there last week...

In reply to GrahamD:



I don't see why I shouldn't be aloud to climb a classic welsh E2, just because I'm inexperienced. I say equip the route and stop this elitism inherent with modern-day trad climbing.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sorry, wrong end of the stick here, There's no limit to how hard you can climb however inexperienced, but the first 'rule' of trad climbing is you also accept the risk and the requirement not to believe that a rusty peg is the same as that nice shiny bolt on a sport route. If lack of experience makes either of these difficult, it's probably a good idea to wait until you do know.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Of course you are allowed to try to climb whatever you wish however inexperienced. What we shouldn't be doing is trying to do is to sanitise a route in an attempt to pander to the inexperienced climber. To do so damages the route for others and potentially encourages even more inexperienced climbers out of their depth.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I see what you did there - you even spelt allowed like they do in Girls Aloud to make it sound like you are a stupid young kid who doesn't know what he's talking about

E

In reply to Iain Peters:

Totally agree.

Mick

In reply to Iain Peters:
the first 'rule' of trad climbing is you also accept the risk and the requirement not to believe that a rusty peg is the same as that nice shiny bolt on a sport route.

I thought the first rule of trad climbing was you don't talk about trad climbing.

No?

In reply to jon:
I agree, absolutely amazing. If it is the same peg that I referred to, and I guess it must be, it was placed by Joe on the first ascent. Joe used a few ring pegs in those days and they were useful if a retreat was called for or if the new route had to go another way, as in the case of The Fang. Then the climbing rope could be threaded through the ring and you did not have leave a carabiner.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It's trad climbing. You have to accept that if you screw up, serious injury or death might occur. People have to be responsible for their actions. What next, are you going to bolt Gogarth? Anyway, I really doubt there are going to be that many 'inexperienced' climbers on Vector.

In reply to Removed Userboje:
I wonder if people still use it much. There's a bomber cam placement just above. So bomber in fact that I spent an hour dangling on an ab rope geting mine out (it was raining, so time well spent).

In reply to Removed Userboje:

It's awesome to hear about you talking about vector in such a personal way, really inspiring!

In reply to Removed UserTom Ripley:

I think it's pretty conclusive mate, the pegs should be left well alone (until their quality is clearly beyond doubt?), but feel free to go n remove/replace/equalize the tat to ease your concern for others. It feels to me like the cave belay/ab-station is a part of the route in a way, and doing the lower pitches on that buttress sound like a prime wet-weather option - might shorten the queue on the Hylldrem girdle a bit anyway.

If your going to do the route, do the whole route. Or take the plummet trying, like others have before you

In reply to others (inc. jcm):

Sure trad ethics are important, but they aren't set in stone. Arguably there are places where pegs SHOULD be replaced, like if an old peg is the only bit of gear on a bold bit of climbing and there is no option for other gear(?) Perhaps not on uber-classics or at quintessentially trad venues. But you cant just stick your fingers in your ears and hum to peoples views, especially to the next generation of climbers.

In reply to Enty: I'm sorry i dont normally post but i nearly laughed my i dont know whats off when i saw you had also spotted the 'alllowed'. I flicked through this thread and i'm amazed no-one (i saw) has suggested the whole thing (especially the glued in wire idea) is a troll. On a general point i think there are likely to be serious accidents where parties decide that trad routes can be abbed as a routine method of descent - in much the same way as one lowers off a sport route. I have seen quite a few parties do this from spikes or tat that i would have backed up if used as belay (before walking off). I can see why people would want to make the belays safe for this reason just as i reject the whole idea!

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I hope that our generation being accustomed to sport climbing does fuel a future peg revival. In regards to pegs that are seen as 'essential' to make a climb safer I shall repeat what I wrote on here the other day:

"Whilst I am generally not against people using pegs on FAs, if they so desire, I think it's a dangerous game to pin the grade of a route upon the presence of a peg. If a peg makes an E3 turn into an E1, then that implies the peg is being trusted effectively by its self to hold a fall.

I have reservations about any one piece of gear, however bomber, being regarded as enough to declare the route safe. Let's remember, even bolts can rip."

In reply to Misha:

Yes, and more to the point, I wonder just how many climbers in the fifty years since Vector's FA have plummeted to their death due to the pegs failing. I suspect the list wouldn't even take up a page of foolscap, sorry, A4.

In reply to jon:

The pegs are still there so they clearly haven't failed

In reply to Misha:


Actually the same is true of sport climbing - a fact that is sometimes too easily overlooked

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

To boje: I'm very jealous. I bet Vector was even more amazing when it wasn't polished.

Brewster as in the guy who got rescued off the Eiger by Bonington and Whillans? I've never heard much about his climbing.

Hello Tom - just noticed your post. Unfortunately Barry Brewster was killed on the Eiger in 1962 - it was his partner Brian Nally who was rescued. Barry was one of the most talented natural rock climbers that I ever knew, certainly in the Boysen league, but he was hopeless with ropework and runners. The only new route I remember was a direct finish to The Neb, but Barry had led most of the hardest climbs on offer in Wales at the time.






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In reply to GrahamD:
Yes, easily done if you get distracted with the ropework at the lower-off. Saw an experienced climber mate almost come to grief once.

The problem I see with just replacing the tat is that it creates an illusion that "if the tat is new, the pegs must be bomber" I know most competent climbers would always overlook this and check the condition of pegs however is it really something you want to be responsible for?

If there is a viable belay/abseil using traditional gear then let people make that decision. Either do nothing or replace everything. I think people should be responsible for the decisions they make, if they decide to contend with a route which is slightly out of their grade they should be prepared to sacrifice a few bits of gear to retreat.

Even if you do replace the pegs it doesn't solve the problem in the long term. Individuals need to be able to make their own decisions. That is the nature of trad climbing and should always be this way.

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Leave it alone. I first did vector around 40 years ago and I swear one of the pegs in the cave now is the same as one that was there then. There is also a VS escape from the cave up and right to the ledge on Void and across to Grim Wall so no need for the scary abseil.

In reply to David Butler:

Do you still climb on the same rack as you did 40 years ago? I don't know anyone who does and there rack won't have spent the last 40 years outside either.

Just because something has been there along time doesn't mean it is safe.


Exactly! So the likes of Mark Reeves who like to climb pitches 1 and 2 in the wet can still climb it. They can build a bomber trad belay in the cave and then escaped to the Grim Wall Direct tree. Simples.

In reply to Jordan Senior:

Ha-ha love it! Only on UKC could you find the argument that making something a little safer isn't as safe as leaving it in a more dangerous state.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Yep. Same rope too. Just kidding Tom. But I do actually. No, of course I don't...

In reply to mrjonathanr:

I think you may be losing your objectivity slightly.

jcm

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I knew it. Some of the things you say make you sound like an idiot, but this is the conclusive proof that you are a full bore moron. At least I now know I can completely ignore anything else you say from henceforth...

In reply to mrjonathanr: Its sad but true....

In reply to Jordan Senior:

What a load of crap. If you clip tat without looking at what it's attached to you're a bit of a fool, not just inexperienced. And you're not responsible for the quality of gear you leave in situ, although you are responsible for littering.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

" If you clip tat without looking at what it's attached to you're a bit of a fool"

Hence the word "competent", you can be competent and inexperienced it's a learning curve after all. So basically your agreeing with me?

Your right at the end of the day its not your responsibility if someone chooses to use someone else's in situ gear. However if you actively go out of your way to replace the tat on deteriorating anchors on a well established classic route (which undoubtedly some people will use for whatever reason) it was your decision to do so and some responsibility must be taken into account. Reducing the chance of risk is far more effective than rectifying the consequences.

In reply to Jordan Senior:

Can you? surely competence can only come from experience...

In reply to Jordan Senior:
However if you actively go out of your way to replace the tat on deteriorating anchors on a well established classic route (which undoubtedly some people will use for whatever reason) it was your decision to do so and some responsibility must be taken into account.

This is incorrect.

In reply to Jordan Senior:

So I retreat from Vector when it starts snowing - luckily I have a length of cordelette which I use to equalise the pegs. This works fine for me but due to cold fingers I tied the knot wrong and it fails on the next team to use it.

Who's fault is this?

E

In reply to Enty: Pick the 2 best pegs to ab from and sacrifice 2 karabiners to ab from,if too cold to tie knots.Could back up with cams/nuts,then ab from top later or next day to retrieve...
If you have enough light,then if you are good enough to lead to the cave,you are good enough to lead the last pitch.You could even aid it if necessary.You could check pegs by bouncing on them with back up from cams.
If you can't work this stuff out for yourself,then you shouldn't be on Vector....

Mitch

In reply to Enty:

Theirs as the leader for not checking what they are entrusting their lives and those of their partner/s to - climbing can teach very harsh lessons to the inexperienced/unlucky - if in doubt back it up, whats a quick check or a £5 wire compared to your life??? We have a phrase in my place of work that is apposite - 'assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups'

As climbers we are responsible for our own safety which I think is the point you are trying to illustrate; the whole issue of not doing stupid or thoughtless things on the crag (trundling loose blocks without checking below etc. etc.) that could endanger others is another can of worms entirely ...

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Leave the pegs
strip the tat

First 2 pitches in the rain then ab off is a great way to enjoy a miserable day. well worth paying for by abandoning a QD or two to be salvaged by the next party to pass by and top out.

Same principal applies to excellent first pitch of Void

In reply to kevin stephens:


Let me know when you go and do Vector or Void in the wet, I'd be keen to do it the day after.