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Cuillin Traverse, ropes (again!), footwear, etc...

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 Styx 16 Mar 2011
Aloha!

We're planning to do a traverse of the Cuillin ridge at the start of May and we're a bit stuck on the issue of ropes....

Between us, we've got a 50m 10.5mm, 30m 8.1mm and a 60m 10mm. Am I right in assuming that the half rope would be ok for everything but ab'ing off the In Pin? Could we get around this limitation by bringing a long piece of sacrificial tat?

With regards to footwear, are there any merits in taking big boots (Manta's) over approach shoes? Obviously they'll be better if we get caught out in bad weather but that's something we'll be aiming to avoid of course!

Any input appreciated.
 hwackerhage 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:
Hi, we did it last year and wrote about it:
http://graniteandice.blogspot.com/2010/09/cuillin-ridge-in-day.html

Here's a photo of the gear we took:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DY95-Zcts8I/TKBIHYjjl8I/AAAAAAAABIk/Bx_VyDRZDqY/s...

And yes unless your ankles are really weak take approach shoes. 5.10 tennies are brilliant on the ridge.
In reply to Styx: If the weather is bad, two things will happen for sure. 1. You get wet whatever footwear you have. 2. You go down. So, you gain noting by wearing boots. You will be on your feet for up to, say, 16 hours road to road. You need something very comfortable. Approach shoes fit the bill, weigh less, and do not have the disadvantages of boots.

Gear - 1x 60 mm half rope is ideal, 3 or 4 nuts, a cam, a few slings, a couple of extenders, that's it!

Clothing - take the absolute lightest you have. When we did it one summer, I just wore a windshirt all the way, with a very light waterproof in pack. Take plenty of water. I am amazed how some people recommend 2 litres each. 2 litres for up to 16 hours of exercise?!!! I took 4 and was still parched by the end.
 Simon Caldwell 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:

re In Pinn rope

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=440494

Andy Nisbet says a 30m rope should be enough 'on rope stretch'.

I'd say 60m is far too long and given your options personally I'd risk the 30m rope (especially if it's a long 30m rather than a short 30m!). If it comes to it you could always ask to ab off someone else's rope if it's busy, or downclimb the route if it's not.

If you're used to being in the mountains in approach shoes then go for that option. If you're not then try it out first - the pair that are comfortable for a half mile walk in could rip your feet to shreds if worn all day.

Finally, make sure you're not there at the same time as me, or it's guaranteed to rain, blow a gale, or both.
 wilkie14c 16 Mar 2011
In reply to hwackerhage:
Nicely wrote account that, well done on your attempt. The OP needs a look at the skye guides web site and go on the downloads page, Mike has his reccomendations for attempting the ridge on there. The ridge is very easy to underestimate and I think mike quotes 80% failure rate. Bit of rain slowing the climbing down and a few bits of off route and you can lose time so easy. My advise to the OP is try and get a couple of days on the difficult sections of the ridge before hand to scope out the climbing etc, this prior knowledge is vital to a fast crossing. Try and look and the decent off SNG at the end too, the tourist route they call it, you don't want to be in the dark trying to pick you way down there for the first time! You'll need to be slick too, get some endurance training in, Welsh 3000, tower ridge etc
Some 5.10 shoes as already said, light comfy and grippy, rope wise there are lots of options. The half should be ok but take care with it over edges, the 30m single may be better with a pull cord for a full abseil length
 al123 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx: just out of interest, what alpine grade would the cullin ridge be given? obvs its not exactly like the alps but a rough estimate?
OP Styx 16 Mar 2011
Thanks all.

Current plan is to allow 5-7 days + travel time to get up there, crash at a hostel and wait for a weather window, if the weather's not too good we'll either have a crack at a couple of short sections of the ridge or find something else to climb on to get used to the rock. We have no intention of attempting the full traverse in anything other than good weather.

I have strong feet/ankles as I run barefoot so I intend to wear 5.10 Camp 4 shoes and sling my rock boots in my bag for TD gap or any other dicey looking bits unless anyone had any exceptionally good reason to use big boots.

My major concern is the rope, the half rope is drastically lighter (1.2kg vs 2.8/3.5 for the other two) but the more I think about it the less I want to use it as a single rope, it's a pretty stretchy rope with a low impact force (4.9kn as a half). I had hoped to avoid forking out for a new rope as I'm a bit skint but I guess I'll have to look at getting something like a Mammut 8.9mm Serenity and cut it down to 40m, grrr!

I intend to get as much beta as I can on the route and be as well prepared as humanly possible without setting foot on it in advance, already picked up the Rockfax mini guide and the Skye guides pdf, any others out there worth obtaining?

Cheers.
OP Styx 16 Mar 2011
In reply to al123: From what I've read, the rock climbing on various sections ranges between grade I-III with some IV and arguably V sections in summer, no idea really about winter grades but I'd hazard a guess at about AD maybe D?
In reply to Styx: I think the best description is in Stainforth's book. Photocopy the relevant pages, cut them down to get rid of margins, stick them in the laminator at work, take them along with you!
OP Styx 16 Mar 2011
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: Thanks, is this the one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cuillin-Gordon-Stainforth/dp/1841195413

Interesting cover according to Amazon
In reply to Styx: On that amazon page, there is an odd front cover. Below that, see two small images of front covers. The right hand brownish one.
 Offwidth 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx: Rock shoes won't be much use other than for slowing you down. Take care on the hard scrambling descents. Search this site for more info...found one:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=440494
 Offwidth 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:

Found our old report, written by Moff:

Cuillin Traverse Report and Tips

“Some useful info from a couple who made it but only rated their chances at 50:50 beforehand. Late 30's with 10+ years multipitch mountaineering experience mainly upto HS. Longest previous day trip Mount Whitney USA 7000ft ascent 22 mile walking round trip at altitude.

Preparation:
No running!! (not intended, but both of us had a variety of minor injuries, now I wonder if its worthwhile...)
Mountaineering trips concentrating on continuous movement over D/VD terrain with boots & rucksack. Days in the peak district climbing 15-30 routes in a session, S and below. Practice moving alpine style...familiarity... trust. No previous experience of the ridge other than scrambling on Scurr Dearg Am Basteir and Scurr Nan Gillean.
Lots of reading/sussing out (mostly Skye guide; Harvey map; Andy Hyslop and Gordon Stainforth). Much weighing & organising kit (seriously!)

Decided to take:
40m 9mm rope, 1kg rack (2 long extenders; 1 sling extender; hex 8; nuts 1,3,5,7,9; 2 long slings); 600gm down jacket for emergency warm clothing; map; compass; whistle; altimeter watch; space foil bag; penknife; one lightweight headtorch; minimal 1st aid kit (Ibruprofen taken every 6 hours to combat pain from old injuries; triangular bandage; steri-strips; cleaning swab; compeed)
then each:
alpine harness; belay plate & locking crab; lightweight boots/approach shoes; comfortable socks; comfortable underwear; two long sleeved thermals; lightweight pertex top; thick thermal trousers (power stretch); powerstretch balaclava; thinney gloves; 2 one litre bottles with measured high 5 isotronic drink powder; 4 x high 5 carbohydrate bars (slow burn, high carbohydrate).

17/6/01 forecast cold day, breezy, mostly sunny, drizzle & rain the previous day &night. Relatively dry on and off previously. No Midges!!! Almost perfect!!!!

Day before ensured good hydration and carbohrdrate loading; tried to get some protein but minimised fat; no beer!! Got up early, ate a high 5 protein recovery bar started taking pain killers. Ate breakfast. Started walking at 2:30 am from Glen Brittle up Coire Gurunda drinking 1 lire of isotonic. Filled all 4 bottles at the Loch. One with just water to drink with the energy bars. Got onto Ridge at 5:00; dumped bags walked to Garrs Bhein. Lynn slipped and nearly fell on a dodgy bypass of Scurr a Coire Bhigg (watch your step on those loose traverses!!) Started traverse at 6:00 am mostly following Andy Hyslop's running guide (except going over Sgurr a Coire Bhigg, avoiding Scurr Dubh and getting lost on the descent of Bidein). Tried to keep moving minimising breaks to a few minutes. Good progress to Scurr Banachdich (12 noon). Navigation problems on descents, tiredness & Steve's knee slowed progress thereafter. Descents of Sgurr A Mhadaidh fourth and first peaks, Bidein, An Caisteal were nastier than expected and cost a lot of time and energy. The climbing was
exposed requiring confidence but not too bad; the exception being the overhanging boulder problem onto Am Basteir (4c?) and the TD Gap is a bit of a thrutch, especially for the short. Bruach Na Frithe at 8.00pm; Nan Gillean at 9.30pm - fifteen and a half hours for the traverse. Limped down descent but speeded up again on the surprisingly good flatish path, arriving back at Sligachan at 12.15 am. Ate a High 5 protein recovery bar and rehydrated, (no booze! but only because we'd missed last orders).

What would we change??? Take 6 energy bars; knees!!!

Unused kit: down jacket; first aid kit other than pain killers; compass!; headtorch!!!

To conclude it was the most absorbing, fabulous mountaineering day of our lives so far. I think the key to our success was a mixture of luck and preparation (including keeping a very close eye on the advanced weather forecasts and deciding two days before to drive up and go for it; going as lightweight as we dare). On the day itself we were able to just concentrate on movement and the outstanding surroundings.

Time now to crack open the champagne!! Oh, one final tip from Steve - when you're soaking in the bath check your body for ticks!!! (and learn how to remove them properly if you don't want to waste the next night at your local casualty department)."
 ScraggyGoat 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:

Your making a meal of gear decisions. Success in good weather is more down to fitness, a nose for the best line, and smooth scrambling. Providing your not carrying loads of crap.

Take the half rope, a few runners, 2-3 litres of water, and a bit of grub.

Remember its been done hundreds of times in big boots, with thicker ropes, and without the comfort blanket of a detailed modern description.........
 Solaris 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:
> and sling my rock boots in my bag for TD gap or any other dicey looking bits unless anyone had any exceptionally good reason to use big boots.

Apart from weight, which has already been mentioned, I think that if you are reckoning on needing to wear rock shoes on any of the Ridge then you might want to consider whether you are ready for it. (Sorry but I can't tell from your profile whether this suggestion is superfluous.)

I'd say that soloing Diff confidently in big boots or approach shoes is a baseline requirement for a successful one day traverse. Otherwise, consider doing it over two days so as to give yourself more time for pitching sections you might solo if you had rock shoes. We did it this way with a couple of scramblers who weren't so confident on rock and had a great time. Bivvying on the ridge is an experience not to be missed!
OP Styx 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Offwidth: Great info, thanks a lot.

Points taken on the rock shoes, I considered it as I'd read wildly various accounts of the difficulty of a few sections. I normally comfortably lead HVS/E1 but haven't climbed much harder than vdiff outdoors in the last 12 months due to an injury I'm now over. I intend to climb hard over the next few weeks to make sure I'm back up to scratch, confidence isn't an issue and I'm already back to decent technical grades indoor so I should be ok, if I'm not ready then we won't do it, simples.

We aren't going to do it in a single day, we intend to bivvy at some point. Partly as we want to get our bivvy set up tightened up before heading to the alps again this year and partly because I've had an extended lay off. Tempted to stash the bivvy gear at the bivvy site but that's still up for discussion and almost defeats the point of doing it...

Well aware of how to deal with ticks, no worries! I lived in South Africa for a few years, you learn how to deal with them pretty damn quick.
 pec 17 Mar 2011
In reply to al123:
> (In reply to Styx) just out of interest, what alpine grade would the cullin ridge be given? obvs its not exactly like the alps but a rough estimate?
If it were at altitude with an "Alpine" approach and not easy to escape then certainly D, perhaps D+ or even TD- if you don't bypass any of the difficult bits but as it is I'd say AD/AD+.

 Solaris 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:

Sounds like you've got things well sorted. Re bivvying, we found it useful to combine a trip to dump water with recceing some of the ridge that we didn't know already. Climbing with bivvy gear will be good training for the alps!

Hope you get good weather and that you have a great time.
 Offwidth 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:

I was a bit obsessive about this for about 14 months until we did it and watched many strong teams fail but especailly so on 2 day attempts. Wait for a weather window, do it in a day.

I'm strong and the scariest bits were the scrambling descents where I was very happy my rucsack was light. All the biviing 2 day teams failed the day we did it, they looked like strong climbers but it was warm mid-day and we overtook them moving fast in the morning and finished real slow due to injuries playing up; so they should have caught us again but didn't. I think the good speed without it being too tiring in the heat of mid-day meant we needed less water (we ran out soon after Bidean but it was cooling fast by then). Also very cold in the early morning: had no feeling in my fingers on the TD gap (after queues there).
 wilkie14c 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Offwidth:
Do you think this high failure rate with the bivvy teams was because they simply take too much gear and were more than just a party of two? I don't take much more than bivvy bag, sleeping bag and 3/4 mat with basic cooking stuff divided by 2. Myself and regular partner can move fairly fast this way but have seen others that appear to be backpacking rather than a nights bivvy.
OP Styx 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Offwidth: Interesting.

Again, is that a case of over preparing and bringing the kitchen sink? My bivvy kit comes in at 1.5kg plus another kg or so between two of us for food/stove, water will definitely be cached at the bivvy site.
 wilkie14c 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx:
> (In reply to Offwidth) Interesting.
>
> water will definitely be cached at the bivvy site.

Again, this is another debatable plan with as many pros as cons and its hard to decide which way to go. To stash water means a day to climb onto the ridge and back, thats fine if the day is used to scope out a bot of the route too. Can you guarantee you'll get to the water and find the stash when you get there. What if you need to bail out, will you return to remove the water bottles? You could also go down the view of the time may be better spent doing something else, if you are going up and down to stash water, you may as well drop off the ridge a little to get to a water point and bivvy there, this way you can have as much water as you for cooking, be well hydrated in the morning and have full bottles. You may not need to drop off the ridge as much as you think and if worried about time, consider taking the boat across to Coruisk and starting from there, that should save 3 hours ish
I've prob made things worst for you now!
 wilkie14c 17 Mar 2011
In reply to blanchie14c:
IIRC the first boat leaves at 09.00 and takes about 45mins, its costs about 8 quid. I'm sure someone will confirm either way, of course this means you'll have a car stuck in Elgol but not a major prob. Either plan to stay in the slig <or slig bunkhouse> when you finish and get a cab to your car or get a cab early from the slig on start day.
OP Styx 17 Mar 2011
In reply to blanchie14c: Haha, even more decisions! All good points though, thanks.

I had considered dropping down and bivvying near a water source but I've yet to get the map (picking that up tomorrow), are they identified on the Harveys map? Probably a lot easier now that I'm thinking about it...
In reply to Styx:

The short side of the In Pinn is 20m so 30m of rope is a bit short if you are planning to ab off.
 Simon Caldwell 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid:

Mike Lates and Andy Nisbet seem to disagree?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=440494

 Offwidth 17 Mar 2011
In reply to blanchie14c:

My view is its partly that (kitchen sink problem) but not entirely. We may of course have missed some bivying more sensibly but unlikely many, as the weather wasn't great until we set off from Glen Brittle. Another key issue is that west coast weather is very changeable and even for the west coast the The Cuillin seems unlucky with weather. We'd been there with good forecasts when the clag came in unexpectedly and we ended up on some of the lovely sea cliff climbs in sunshine. In perfect high pressure it may often be too hot (we got some drizzle early morning into a cold & dry then warm sunny day by the Inn Pinn then cold evening). One friend of ours nearly killed himself on a fast recee scramble in cloud (very easy to get disoriented up there and a compass doesn't work); another very strong pair we knew failed in cloud.

One good day is best. We were bumblies with only climbing fitness and onsighting the hard bits and were fine.
 hwackerhage 17 Mar 2011
I agree that one good day with top fitness and a good strategy and no wishful thinking is best. Running or fast, long hillwalks work best to build up the fitness. Ideally have a long run per week and add 2 miles up to a maximum run of 16 and maybe even 20 miles. Before have a tapering period where you go down to a 10 miler or long hillwalk the weekend before.

Have target times for landmarks (see Hyslop guide) and if you are behind leave out some of the climbs esp. if there are queues.

The romanticised hurrah Harry style may work if you are a natural and lucky but most of the time you will not succeed. Equally on two day traverses there is a 50% chance that the weather will crap out. Also moving light and fast is far more fun.



 Harry Ellis 17 Mar 2011
In reply to Styx: I really enjoyed my bivi. I'd like to go back and do it in a day to compare the experience.

2 days meant we could do it with one car, got the bus from slig in morning.
It also meant that the weather crapping out on day 1 didn't mean game over, day two started cloudy but cleared so we got round despite one or two mistakes.

Keep your kit as light as poss though as folk have said some of the downclimbing is a bit airy (had to pass packs down at one point).

IIRC i took rock shoes but only used them on Naismiths route TD gap is easier in boots as the crack you climb out is a goot bootwidth.
Waterwise we carried 3 litres each which was enough to see us to the spring after bruach na frith.

And at the time with a pack on the boulder problem onto Am Basteir felt like 5b!
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Stephen Reid)
> Mike Lates and Andy Nisbet seem to disagree?

Gosh, I wouldn't argue with them - I've only done the Ridge twice and the first time I soloed and downclimed all the abs. The second time was in winter and we had a pair of 50m ropes.
OP Styx 20 Mar 2011
Right, sorted the rope issue... decided to part-ex my 10.5mm 50m for a new Mammut Serenity 8.9mm 50m rope (rated for use as a single, twin & double).

The 10.5mm has been pissing me off in the mountains for a while anyway, seemed like a good idea at the time but it's just too heavy.

Had a bit of a run around in my Camp 4's yesterday at Burbage North, very pleased with how they handle on rock so I'll definitely be sticking with them I think.

It's all coming together nicely now, thanks once again for all the input ladies & gents.

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