UKC

Looking at some alpine routes and alot of people must put in the practise for the alps here in the UK?

So just wondering if somebody could help me out and take the time to write up a rough comparison chart between Sottish Winter Grades and French Alpine Grades? If there's no comparison and its just me being a plank, or its as simple as I=F & II=PD etc, then let me know, but would just be handy to know.

Cheers

In reply to martinlird:

i don;t think they necessarily compare very well, though it may depend on the route. alpine routes are, well, alpine in scale, whereas a scottish winter grade could be applied to a single pitch route (eg The Hurting).

Alpine route may also be on rock rather than snow and ice

the alpine grade may reflect glaciar crossings, obviously in short supply in the UK

for some routes, the comparison may be more meaningful- i've seen it suggested that Tower Ridge (IV, or III depending on who you listen to) would attract an alpine grade of AD; but it is alpine in scale, and there arent that many outside of ben nevis than that could be said for (prepares to be shot down now...)

but for the above reasons, i dont think a comparison chart would be particularly helpful

cheers
gregor

In reply to martinlird: Hey Martin, this article is pretty interesting: http://www.summitpost.org/handy-alpine-grade-facts/173430

Mainly aimed at converting Alpine grades to the American (YDS) system but if you use this: http://www.rockfax.com/publications/images/trad_grade_safe.gif as well it should start to paint a bit of a picture.

In reply to martinlird: oh, when looking at the above summitpost.org article don't confuse the NCSS grades with Scottish ones!

In reply to Styx: Spot on Rob, cheers mate!
I suppose I could read the article....or just question you to death on Saturday haha.

But no, cheers man, answered my questions no end.

Also I take the advice about not necessarily being able to completely compare to Scottish winter. Thanks for the reply.

In reply to Styx:

but only the very rough outline of a picture- an AD route could have no rock climbing at all, but might be a delicate corniced snow arete. it could involve sustained but serious easier climbing on poor quality rock. there may be fixed in situ gear to pull on. there may be a complex approach across heavily glaciated terrain, and a requirement to move really quickly to get off this before the sun renders it very dangerous. none of these will be captured adequately by the UIAA grade, which will usually be given as part of the overall grade if relevant- in a similar way to the way tech grades complement adjectival trade grades, but could be seriously misleading if used alone....

cheers
gregor

Would this article be of any help to my querie. I've gone over to British trad grading now...but just found this....

http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=4&topic=12&...

However, I do understand where your coming from, saying the grading for French alpine uses alot of other variables that don't come into play on a usual scottish winter/ British trad grade....for example glaciers and fixed gear?

In reply to martinlird:

why are you asking anyway...? are you planning a trip to the alps..?

cheers
gregor

In reply to martinlird: You're not being a plank but it is a comparing chalk and cheese job.

Scotland feels more scary because of the weather,dodgy snow,short days and Alps feel more scary because of the altitude and size - long routes, glacier approach in in darkness.

I've spent more time in Wales than Scotland and nothing there on the commonly frequented winter walking routes (even Crib Goch) would rate a PD.
Any difficulties are very short and there's no need for pre-dawn starts.

I haven't done them but the Snowdon Trinity Face routes look quite technical, however they wouldn't get an AD apart from on those (technical) grounds because you get to the top and walk off. There's a bit more to PD and ADs than that I think. Wales (and much of Scotland?) is more like 'winter cragging' than alpinism.

Paradoxically though many say alpine PDs are good training for Scottish Winter routes. I'd rather do an AD than a steepish Scottish or Welsh gully, all the time wondering if I'd judged the snow correctly.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Oh I agree with you completely, there's simply no straight comparison but those articles start to give a bit of an idea of what kinds of technical climbing can be included in the grades. It's daunting as a total beginner to hear all these strange new grades and have no idea of where they lie in relation to each other or what feels like an achievable goal.

In reply to Nigel Modern:

was on central trinity last year- a snow plod up bucket steps, not technical at all- Facile territory, but about 500m too short

(still a fantastic route in inspiring surrounds though...)

crib goch + crib y ddysgyl, if the crest adhered to and the pinnacles taken direct, might just get a PD grade, as it calls for a bit of technique and balance wearing crampons on a long stretch of fall-offable ground.

but only just...

cheers
gregor

In reply to martinlird: No worries, aye, absolutely!

In reply to Styx:

if you've not been before, and are planning to go, what about a guide for the first season- or even just the first route? there are so many things that are different- from hut ettiquete, to starting 4 hours before it gets light, to crevasses and seracs, and having to probably reverse your ascent route as it is likely to be the easiest way up, when you are tired, and when the snow is turning to porridge- that having someone show you the ropes so to speak is a good idea

what about the jonathan conville course- would you be eligible for that? if so, it sounds like a very good idea- there will be people on here who have gone on it, they'd be able to advise better than me,

cheers
gregor

(i went on Martin Moran's course a couple of years back, it was an excellent experience)

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

that last reply should be to martin..!

g

In reply to martinlird:

There are some useful and interesting discussions here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=341463&v=1#x5024608
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=391536&v=1#x5653363

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: I presume that's aimed at Martin! I just said pretty much the same thing in an email to him funnily enough!

In reply to Nigel Modern: Lots of easier alpine routes seems to involve large amounts of tottering about on steep snow that whilst not really hard, a slip would be fatal. On the other hand I've done TD routes which are really just pretty average HVSs, for example: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34087 The Couzy is as I remember it, safe as houses for any averagely competent British rock climber.