UKC

Whilst I really like the format, photos and entertaining text in Gary Latter's Scottish Rock, I have come across a number of mistakes both in the wording and topos. Does anyone know if there is a list being compiled to record these errors so that following editions of this otherwise excellent guide can be updated?

In reply to hexcentric:

>"a list being compiled to record these errors"

I'm sure the author would welcome an email listing the errors you've spotted.

I guess if there is a list it will be him who keeps it...

In reply to hexcentric:

Gary posts here from time to time -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=19491

In reply to hexcentric:

"abseil into the tidal ledge high above the sea was my personal favourite". Good on him for getting such a great guide produced though, even if there were a few mistakes.

In reply to hexcentric:

Victimofmathematics of this parish has a few tales to tell of said mistakes!

I suggest you email him and enquire... though I think you may have just got yourself a new job in compiling these!

PP.

In reply to hexcentric:

Missing out any mention of the valuable rainshadow crags of the Moray and Aberdeen coasts, in favour of full page gear beta descriptions of E7s and photos of playing around in trainers.

That and Ardtun / Mid-Clyth omissions.

It is a good idea. Despite the occasional mistakes I greatly value the guides (coverage and photo inspiration) and a corrective companion could be useful.

In reply to hexcentric:

Ah, Gary Latter's Books of Sexy Lies...

They are so very inspiring, but I have had a few little adventures as a result of some, ahem, minor errors.

Trying to climb all of Commando Crack in one pitch because the first pitch is alleged to be 40 metres long was fun. As was busting some 5a moves with only a micro-cam between me and oblivion on a VS which turned out to be an E1 at Neist.

I could provide a fuller list if you wanted...

In reply to hexcentric: The omission of Mid Clyth is pretty bad.

Also, the north butress is said to be accessible by an easy scramble down to sea level. I went and found a five or six metre drop into a tidal channel with no easy means of retreat.

In reply to all:

The clue's in the name - it's 'guide'.

If you reckon you could (and would) do a better job, feel free to do so.

In reply to hexcentric:

Sure, if folks send me details I'll put together a pdf & make it available either on my site or on the publishers website. Guess there are around 4,500 routes in the books, so didn't manage to check them all out...

My email address is gary@scottishrock.co.uk

Shortly heading off on an extended climbing trip, so will be early December before get around to sorting through things.

Look forward to any feedback.

Cheers,

Gary ;D

In reply to GL:

I have quite a few corrections noted into the books, I will post them up later.

Great work by the way, I love them very much.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

i'm listening. this could put some sunshine in an otherwise wet and windy tuesday!

Wow, never knew Mr Latter lurked here. Big congratulations on the books, they are awesome. Some very inspiring photos in there.

In reply to GL:

Thanks to Gary Latter for such a positive response. It's very understandable that there should be errors - the books must have been a truly massive undertaking.

Hope you have a great trip.

In reply to GL:

My notes in Volume 2 (North):

- Commando Crack & The Asp marked too far left on topo
- P1 Commando Crack much less than 40m
- You don't need double sets of large cams for Kilt Rock routes (Tartan Terror, Skyeman)
- Approach to Neist - you follow the B884 from Lonmore for more than 7.5 miles (easiest just to follow signs once you're on it)
- Powerbroker and Security Risk at Neist are marked too far right on topo, they should be immediately right of Bridging Interest
- Bad Dream has a couple of possibly dangerous loose blocks on the second pitch
- The starts of The Pillar and Dire Wall at Diabaig vary from SMC descriptions - you have the Pillar starting as for Dire Wall
- Jack the Ripper on Stac Pollaidh is over-described - I know more than one party that's been confused by it, but the line is obvious enough
- The Nook at Sheigra is harder than VD (VS in SMC?)
- The grades of pitches on Am Buachaille vary from SMC
- Abbing into Spring Squill on Pabbay is simpler than described - you can go straight to the ledge without any complicated swinging
- The descriptions for the Zen routes on Allanish walls don't seem to add up with what you can see (maybe just me)
- Parts of Guarsay Mor are mega confusing - on a trip there I think we had four separate parties fail to find Mayday
- P1 Sula - the large flake at 15m is 5m LEFT of triangular roof
- P2 Silkie - All the lefts and rights seem to be mixed up (apart from the first 'rightwards')
- P2 Sirens - Continue up and LEFT on flakes
- Mary Doune on Geirum Walls is more like 10m than 15m
- Singing Seal on Geirum Walls is a little bold, small and fiddly gear, worth noting

Grades and stars are obviously subjective, but some I think are definitely not right:

Crack of Zawn, Angel of Sharkness and Pickpocket at Suidhe Biorach are all easier than E1
P2 of the Klondyker is hard for 5a
Dial Card at Staffin is nails for E1
Terminal Bonus at Neist Financial Sector is very easy for HVS
Exterminator at Seana Mheallan is easy for E3
A couple of the Rolling Wall routes at Diabaig seem undergraded, but I haven't noted which
Rouged Up at Loch Tollaidh is not E3 - even without a side-runner, the gear is good. Water Lily is soft for E2.
Raglan Road on Road Crag, Gruinard is easy for E2. Gneissest on Triangular Slab is easy for VS. Charlie's Corner on Jetty Buttress the same.
Gaffer's Wall at Jetty, description of where to gain ledge doesn't match topo
At Red Wall, Creag Gharbh Mhor, Rhicorner seems much more worth *** than Goat of Barten next to it.
Who Shot RJ on the Poop Deck, Pabbay, is very easy for E3

That is all. Hope it's more helpful than annoying

A couple more:

P2 of the Black Streak (Diabaig) is easier than 5b
Crux of Red Slab Route, Jetty Buttress is more like 4c than 4a

I haven't as many in Volume 1:

The first pitch of Mosque on Arran is bold for VS 4c
Weem is not quick-drying - it seeps a lot
There is no good nut to back up the poor peg on The Hill - you can get something in but it's not convincing
At the start of Steeple, it's more than 6m up the gully to belay, but easier just to belay at the bottom. Also worth describing in closer detail which ramp to take on P4 - some people have continued up Haystack

Cheers,

Andy

In reply to Andy Moles:

Many thanks for all these. I'll add them to the growing list...

One of the more embarassing mistakes with the topos is the one for Spaced Out Rockers Cliff at Reiff, where the line of Headlong and perhaps Misha are wrong - they're my own routes as well! Lot of uselful tweaks to grades & stars for here and Coigach in general are in Ian Taylor's wee Ullapool Rock guide (which strangely doesn't contain any climbing actually in Ullapool though).

Up on Stac Pollaidh, Jack the Ripper should go left, not right on the second pitch I think, but I agree, the line is obvious. Across the way on Sgurr an Fhidleir, think description for Nose Direct might be bit confused - climbed years ago with client, then went back in just before guide came out, but poured down so abandoned it.

At Diabaig, disagree that pitch 2 of The Black Streak isn't 5b. Move onto slab is crux, then rest is OK at 5a & superb. At the top of the main climbing on Bogie/Evasion there is now a good abseil point (thread & maillon) - so more convenient to descend from here rather than finish up short wall above.

Routes do change a lot. On The Hill at Creag Dhubh, there used to be a decent small nut placement next to the peg, but now useless - best to tighten the sphincter & plod on, trying not to think too much about how old the peg is.... Have done this couple times in last few years (the route that is).

Similarly at Weem, The End of Silence is back to F7b, after the hold improvement/removal debacle, but the less said about that the better. Was 7b when I first climbed it, then became much easier, but start seems desperate & harder than it used to be (but could be just me getting old & unfit!). Aye, Weem Rock can seep in the spring, but once dry can be OK even after heavy rain. Other crags here are quicker drying. Can be useful venue when Cave Crag is seeping though.

Upper Cave Crag is my local crag, & some of the grades are maybe a wee bit out. Laughing Gnome feels steady enough & OK at E4 5c - there's a bomber rock 5 placement in pocket at the start of the main climbing. Summer Days felt easy for E3 5c wee while back, but seemed tough couple weeks later, though was a bit damp though. Found a good small nut slot high up on the bold traverse on first pitch of Warfarin recently, which had never seen on over 20 years of climbing the thing fairly regularly... Hang Out might be OK at E3 5b or even E2 with a tiny cam to protect the moves up into the scoop. Deathshead is OK at E1 5b if swing round arete on right low dowm, but 5c & powerful if climbed direct up the crack.

I've climbed a lot at Kilt, and always find can easily use 2 or 3 sets cams, but then I've got loads of cams (been to Utah & California, you see) & always find quicker & easier to place than fiddling around with my big nuts. My statement that Grey Panther has "a lot less jamming than many of the other routes here" is complete bollocks. Have done it another couple times since guide came out, & just as much jamming as most of the others. Internationale definitely feels like E3 5c & good value. Edge of Beyond is E3 6a & 3* if climbed direct, avoiding the illogical escape onto the arete, which omits the best bit.

Staffin Slip Buttress is sadly getting a bit overgrown, which is a shame, as great lines & often more sheltered & with easier approaches than Kilt. Maybe the new definitive Skye guide will stir up some interest & the routes will get bit more traffic & stay clean?

Many of the newer stuff at Neist hadn't had many repeats, and the grades and many of the descriptions came from the first ascentionists. Had cracking week up there over the May bank holiday earlier this year. Finally ticked all the routes in the Financial Sector, after having done many of the same ones over & over again. Some folk thought Hurricane Hideaway hard for E1 "that E1 that's not E1" - perhaps E2 5c for the last crux section, but safe as houses. I think Bridging Interest soft for HVS 5a - more like VS 4c, but others disagree. Never got round to doing Bad Dream, but had fair few ascents from Aberdonian teams that week, some doing it in long single pitch. Good, but not 4* was the concensus

At Suidhe Biorach, the route of the crag is definitely Mothers Pride - one of the steepest E4s around (overhangs about 25'). Definitely 4*. Have only done couple of the E1s there, so not sure about these.

At Erraid, Karen's Slab is wrongly decribed - it lies west of the main valley/approach path, but obvious. On the Lower Tier, thought Spiral Arete hard for HVS - more like E1 & pretty nasty, & the E1 up the wee finger-crack just to its right right felt hard for the grade (but is well protected).

On Mingulay, did Sula again (3rd time) couple weeks back, but just followed couple folk up it, so didn't pay much attention to where I was going at the time. I agree that Guarsay Mor would benefit from few good topos, but ran out of space in the book (had to drop 20 pages from Volume 2 as it was). At Geirum Walls, at the far right end Alan's Route is the same route as another HVS climbed few months earlier by Tim Rankin - can't recall the name at the moment - Calling Seal perhaps?

Anyway, that'll do for getting on with.

Could be a long thread by the time I return!?

In reply to hexcentric:

Many have been mentioned, of those that haven't:

The line shown on the topo for Baywatch at Neist is in fact the line of Awful Wedded Wife, an E1 5a. Baywatch is further left.

The line on the topo for South-East Arete on The Green Lady at Neist is too far left. The actual line takes the arete (surprisingly) not the centre of the face as marked. The beta about the abseil is very helpful though!

And I agree, Bridging Interest is VS, not HVS.

In reply to GL:

That's all good to know, thanks for posting those up.

A couple of my friends had the same to say about Bad Dream not being 4*. Hurricane Hideaway was another one I missed - it might be top end E1, but definitely 5c.

Couldn't agree more about Staffin, is there a more criminally overlooked crag in Britain?

In reply to GL:

I just had a look and the other HVS on Geirum Walls must be Double Walrus. Calling Seal is an E3 6a which I thought was pretty eliminate. It may also be worth noting that you need to be 6'9" to be able to climb 'Sealed with a Kiss', also E3 6a. Or just good, I suppose.

In reply to GL:
Great guides Gary, a fine effort.
I'ld agree about The Nose on the Fhidleir, did it in April and the description was very hard to follow, but the SMC guide and Kev Howetts were no better. The problem is that the upper harder pitches are actually quite short and better run together.
The winter line with associated scratches and insitu runners also varies from the summer line which caused us confusion. Also none of us knew what a "Hansome Cab Stance" looked like! Can't remember if that was in your guide or the SMC one.

In reply to GL:

I'd keep Bridging Interest at HVS 5a; sustained with a definate 5a crux, although the gear is excellent throughout so not high in the grade. The old Skye guide gives it E1...

In reply to Andy Moles:

It is my route and I am neither 6'9" nor good.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


I think a VS leader would have a hard time on it.
No mention of VS here.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=68853

In reply to hexcentric:


There seems to be some confusion about where this route goes, as well as its name. SMC NHC marks two starts on its topo, both of which avoid the red scoop on the left (and for which HS 4a is about right), but the description does not match this.

Reiff (Seal Song Area): the lines of Skullsmasher and Hairsplitter appear to be transposed on the topo.

Ridgeway View Crag: Clubmoss should appear before C Dogs to preserve the R to L order. Also, it is not obvious from the text that there is a big gap between Classic Crack and Oars Aft.

In reply to Mark Bull:

AFAIK Red Slab Route is the original name, but Lily the Pink had become accepted by both paul/jim when producing the wild west topos and the smc guide. I'm guessing jim wanted to put the record straight? But taking your cue from either name and climbing the red bit seems sensible and about the right grade. Crack route is also a renaming I believe.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm exaggerating because I couldn't do it.

In reply to Mark Bull:

It depends what you consider the scoop to be. As far as I'm concerned, the scoop is the bigger feature and not the groove on its right. In which case the description in NHC is OK (it's confusing you so obviously it's not OK!)It's the groove which Gary marks on his topo and we all agree that it's not 4a. The best solution is to give the groove as a variation. It's a problem with topos on rock you can climb anywhere, that folk take them too literally.

In reply to hexcentric:
Meall An Fhir-Eoin Beag -
An Deireadh seems to be what is down on the SMC guide as Krakatoa. Maybe they are very close together, not sure which guide is correct here to be honest!

Stac An Fharaidh -
3rd pitch of Whispers, given 5a. I'd say 4c as per SMC guide.

In reply to GL:

> I've climbed a lot at Kilt, and always find can easily use 2 or 3 sets cams, but then I've got loads of cams (been to Utah & California, you see) & always find quicker & easier to place than fiddling around with my big nuts. My statement that Grey Panther has "a lot less jamming than many of the other routes here" is complete bollocks. Have done it another couple times since guide came out, & just as much jamming as most of the others. Internationale definitely feels like E3 5c & good value. Edge of Beyond is E3 6a & 3* if climbed direct, avoiding the illogical escape onto the arete, which omits the best bit.

The reason I liked Edge of Beyond was because of the exposure when you move left onto the edge (the edge of beyond?). Why would you miss that out and make it just another crack climb?



I tried to shunt it last century and couldn't work out where it went at that grade. Pete did it a couple of weeks ago and also thought E1.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Ah, OK, that makes sense.


That would be good: the groove is probably the better line and climbing, even though it's not the original/easiest way.

In reply to Mike_Watson_99:
I thought Whispers was 5a through the overlap on p3.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I can vouch for that.

IJ

In reply to IanMcC:

Amen and agreement
Al

In reply to Ian Jones:

But at least I'm more than 5'3" Ian..... even if my footwork is crap.

In reply to AlH:
Lol, in that case we need a new thread for Andy to comment on his SMC Cairngorms guide!

In reply to hexcentric:

The whole book(s) should be renamed Highland Rock as they don't even mention the hundreds of excellent rock routes south of the Central belt.!!

In reply to Andes:

Do you mean the Lake District?

In reply to Andes:

Maybe that is because they are relatively rubbish. It is a selective guide.

In reply to Andes:

3 words JB..... The Goat Crag....

In reply to Mike_Watson_99:

This one really surprises me. I used to do it often with Glenmore Lodge students, often them leading and I always considered it a mild VS 4c. Maybe it depends how much you've climbed on Cairngorms granite. The other VSs on the crag are much harder!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Dont think it's mild at VS, but I suspect that the unsatisfactory nature of the gear on the crux may magnify the perceived technicality. I seconded AlH and thought 4c.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I agree now but didn't then. Technical grades on friction moves are hard to assess, but I was used to granite and happy to solo ahead of students leading on that route. Once you knew your feet would stick, it was fine. Now the scoop on Hammer - no way would I solo that.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Bizarre.... I've always thought that soft.... 4c
As you say, I suppose its what you are used to.

In reply to AlH:
Well as it's a selected guidebook I would definitely miss that one out... more uphill gardening than rock climbing

In reply to Robert Durran:

There are loads of great crags in Galloway.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Me neither, but I'd say it was technically easier than the crux on Whispers.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I was chatting to John Lyall and we think Whispers is the easiest of the 5 VS's on the crag. Seriously.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Great, just need some dry enough weather to go an try the others!!