UKC

After E8 onsight/flash becoming a much more common occurrence the past couple of years, I was wondering who had onsighted/flashed what?

Unsure about whether we should include Ground-up efforts or flashed ascents having had a gander on abseil?

Shall we just go with non TRed ascents of E8s?

The people I can think of who have done E8 first go are;
Dave Birkett - Fear of Failure and My Piano
James Pearson - End Of The Affair, PointBlank, Airdrawn Dagger, Daddy Cool, Dusk till Dawn (E7 now?)
Caff - Point Blank, Dawes rides a Shovelhead, Dusk Till Dawn (E7?)
Steve McClure - Point Blank, Dawes Rides a Shovelhead and Eulogy Direct
Pete Robins - End Of The Affair
Alex Honnold - Gaia
Ben Bransby - Carmen Picasso and Point Blank
Jordan Buys - Carmen Picasso

I'm sure I'm missing loads, and probably not listed all routes done by the above either... Any more for any more?

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Neil Dickson - Hollowman

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Ryan Pasquill - various, I think. Certainly Countdown to Disaster.

Nik Jennings - Doug.

Ian Vickers?

jcm

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Jack Geldard on that loose thing on the Llyn.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:
Stuart Cameron was one of the first with Extinction at Gogarth

In reply to sheppy: Surely Dave Macloed has.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I think Adam Lincoln on Gigantic?

In reply to jobertalot:

And I think either Sean Villanueva or Nico Favrese onsighted My Piano as well.. or maybe both of them.

In reply to jobertalot:

It was actually after an ab to clean it. Whatever that counts as!

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Lots of Americans I expect. And what about sport routes? 8b+ on bolts has got to be at least the same as safe E8. Sport routes are essentially just the same as safe trad routes after all...

In reply to jacobjlloyd:
Don't start this again....!

In reply to James Oswald: Hmmm. Good idea.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Yeah I saw that in the logbook, but didn't he decide to include all non top roped ascents?

In reply to jobertalot:

Ahhh... i didn't see that in the original post. Back on the list then!

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

In that case - Caroline Ciavaldini - Point Blank. Ground up (got it on the second attempt). Second trad lead ever!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Er, it's gotta be sent first go to count as an onsight or flash!

In reply to Calder: To quote the OP:

"Unsure about whether we should include Ground-up efforts or flashed ascents having had a gander on abseil?

Shall we just go with non TRed ascents of E8s?"

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Did that Japanese lad who came over and danced up a whole load of grit and granite routes do any on sight ? unfortunately his exploits were somewhat drowned out by the hype of 'team America'

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




And on sight solo of Boldness Through Ignorance.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Pretty detailed list of grit E8 ascents here:

http://gritlist.wetpaint.com/page/E8+Peak+District
http://gritlist.wetpaint.com/page/E8+Yorkshire
http://gritlist.wetpaint.com/page/E8+Lancashire

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59674

In reply to remus:

To quote the OP:

"I was wondering who had onsighted/flashed what?"

Whether the attempt was originally GU or after abseil inspection or after a freind had meticulously described the moves or whether the route had been recreated in their own cellar, it would have to go first time to count as onsight or flash...

... for christ sake.

I mean look at the sodding thread title. The OP was unsure whether to restrict it to onsight or to include flash. Anything less and you may as well include headpointing and that obviously means a pretty pointless list.

Rant over.

In reply to Calder:

>Anything less and you may as well include headpointing

I'm not sure about that!! There's an *awful* lot more people have head-pointed E8 than done it ground-up.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


And you have to give credit for intent. If you start out to headpoint a route, then you're only ever going to headpoint it. Ground up ascents start out as onsight attempts, and then need to be carried through after at least one fall without the climber sacking it off and putting the top rope up or just walking away. In some ways that requires more courage than completing the onsight.

In reply to Hephaestus:

I'm calmer now!

Basically the OP should have just defined what the list should include, instead of asking!

No doubt, hats off to anyone getting up E8! But I think a list of E8 onsights and E8 flashes would be quite interesting reading. Certainly there were more suggestions thrown into the ring on this thread than I expected.

There seems to be a lot of seriously good climbing going on out there. Long may it continue...

In reply to Calder: OK, I am here to defend my stupidly inadequate requirements to get on the list!!!

I agree with what has been said above, that E8 ground-up started off as onsight which is just as ballsy as onsighting one, I would probably count anything that was not touched by the person before they set off up for the first time, so beta, ground-up and onsights...

however, I think macleod has done an E8 or two after inspecting on an ab rope, so he didnt practice the move but has a lot better a mental picture as to what to expect.

I sort of asked so that people could put in their opinions as to what they think should be in the list of "non-headpointed E8s" E.G. is abbing it first cricket? or is that too close to Headpointing?

I kind of meant this list out of my personal interest and inspiration from hard onsights as opposed to headpoints, but also as a sort of celebration at a new rise in UK standards, as E7 onsights were newsworthy in the 90s/early 00s E8s are becomeing more commonly onsighted recently, especially after Pearson's Pembroke rampage...

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Have we had Kevin Jorgeson ground-upping Parthian Shot? And what grade did the Promise end up at? Hasn't that been ground-upped by pretty much the world and his wife? Not to mention the mythical onsight of Tender Homecoming which always used to come up on these threads a few years ago.

Of course, really this cutting-edge onsighting is only a way of finding out which routes were actually overgraded when headpointed, and which not.

jcm

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I think you need to be quite careful with statements like this, for reasons I won't go into, but the bottom line is that true onsights of E8s are very rare- I count only 5 I think, 3 of which are of routes which are likely to be downgraded in the future. Not knocking the ascents like- onsighting an E7 is bloody nails, but I think it's a mistake to suggest that there's some 'new age' coming. The Pembroke anomaly is also quite telling.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

>but the bottom line is that true onsights of E8s are very rare- I count only 5 I think, 3 of which are of routes which are likely to be downgraded in the future.

Ooooh, go on then - which 5 are those?!

jcm

In reply to Franco Cookson: Yeah maybe onsight is too strict, so a fair few E8 flashes...

I didn't actually say that it was a "new age", but a rise in the amount of better style ascents, which it is difficult to deny, more E8s have been onsighted or flashed in the past few years than the years before that.

Maybe the pembroke anomaly is telling, but its probably just telling that pembroke routes are the closest in similarity to sport routes as opposed to routes at Gogarth or cloggy (although Gogarth has seen 2 E8 ascents without pre-practice or knowledge and I guess Twid would have adhered to the "no TR-ing" ethic at Big G for Vital Statistix)

There have also been a fair few grit ones, is this telling too?

Interested in the reasons you won't go into, Fbook me them?

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Cause it's a bit 'gay' to chat about how people's E8 onsights weren't actually onsights when I only onsight VS.

Increase in flashes is true, so there's perhaps an improvement there, or just a greater sharing of information.

There's a big difference between a few grit routes getting ground uped and the same routes at pembroke getting lapped. If I put up an H10 that got ground uped second go I'd feel a bit silly though, and the total lack of a suggestion to down-grade it on the parts of all those people who repeated it seems very suspicious- It's almost like it's in everyone's interests for it to stay at E10...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Dave Mac came as close as he could to downgrading it without pissing on his mate's chips. And Pearson is - well, Pearson. I think we can be pretty confident, from the safety of our armchairs *obviously*, that Muy Caliente will end up as E9.

jcm

In reply to Franco Cookson: But you don't onsight VS, according to your logbooks, you have flashed E6 and onsighted E5...

Also, you've sort of already started suggesting that someones' E8 ascents weren't... so its potentially more gay that you aren't putting your money where your mouth is

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

There's a massive difference between E6 and E8 though.

In reply to John: I wish it was possible to separate the climbers from the routes, as it would be ideal if everything was graded without egos or ulterior motives. It is embarrassingly armchairy to say this, but the comment about 'those E8s that have been onsighted show the H8s that were overgraded' is kind of right. The pembroke E8+s that have been done in way better style than their cousins else where in the UK, will only stay at their inflated grades as long as it suits everyone for it to be that way.

I hear the scottish winter scene is also a bit like this, but ultimately it only hurts everyone when some strong european comes over and onsights an E8 masquerading as an E11...

In reply to Duncan Campbell:


Is it not just getting the necessary beta for a flash for them folk that don't have any mates?!

I reckon the easiest way to define the list with minimal grey areas is to

- Rule out anything that involved any top-rope practice.
- Include anything else where the person got it first go.

Which is what you put in the first place!!! I'll shut up...

In reply to Calder: Brilliant post.

Err thankyou for going from thinking my criteria were totally rediculous, to trying to suggest the best criteria and doing the same as me! :-P

That made me chuckle that did.

Dunc

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Go on Franco, while you're in that armchair tell us which three you think were proper E8 onsights. I've nothing planned this evening

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Typical me :|

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I haven't got a load of time to get involved in this but..

You're right Franco, but it works both ways as there's also a deal of grade squashing going on, certainly from the late 80s/90s. Routes like Loaded, Superstition and others of a similar ilk are not E8 if you take it as an estimated onsight grade, 'cos the climbing's just too hard on them. As you know, Pembroke suits onsights a lot of the time as it's often, good gear, runouts, semi-sport style (not always).

There isn't really anything wrong with the E system in principle, some of the overgrading that has gone on is a re-dress to stretching it out properly. It'll sort itself out over time, assuming people understand the system properly, use it as an estimate for the onsight. Taking into account the true difficulty of the climbing technically to onsight, and not just getting lost in the danger factor.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Very true and deliberate sandbagging is one of my pet hates and very common in yorkshire (in particular the moors). Like you say, it will sort its self out, people just need to not feel like their treading on toes or upsetting anyone if they suggest a downgrade and people also need to make sure they're grading for the onsight and not just down-grading routes to look hard- which happens a lot.

In reply to Duncan Campbell: Good post

In reply to Duncan Campbell: OK, so it's all non-TRed E8s thus onsight, ground-up or flash?

On this basis where does that leave the list? If anybody can be bothered, it might be worth splitting into those 3 categories to help give a clearer picture?