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A mate of mine chopped the two old bolts on Johnny Dawes' route, "Wall Street Crash" at Millstone, a couple of days ago.
I'm not entirely sure of his reasons for this, though one of them was "most of the difficulty of doing the route was the worry about whether the bolts would fail or not".
I kind of agree that rusty old bolt heads are a liability but this is a controversial act.
What do people think of this?
In reply to brendonTendon: as it is on grit and they were old? I dont think that would be too controversial. so long as he doesnt start chopping bold at chee dale cornice. Remember Seb Grieve last year
In reply to brendonTendon: I don't know really.
Was he in a position of informed authority to chop them ? Has he had experiance in choosing bolts to be removed b4 ?
If your mate can remove them then doesn't that give anyone the right to remove any bolt they don't like ?
My personal viewpoint was that if you have been climbing a while and you know some bolts are dangerous and crap why not remove them for everyones safety. What we don't want however is people who have been climbing 2 weeks to go along to a climb and remove the in-situ protection willy-nilly
Was he in a position of informed authority to chop them ? Has he had experiance in choosing bolts to be removed b4 ?
If your mate can remove them then doesn't that give anyone the right to remove any bolt they don't like ?
My personal viewpoint was that if you have been climbing a while and you know some bolts are dangerous and crap why not remove them for everyones safety. What we don't want however is people who have been climbing 2 weeks to go along to a climb and remove the in-situ protection willy-nilly
In reply to Jimmy the Whale:
He's somebody who's been climbing for over 15 years so I guess he knows what he's doing, but you're right, that doesn't give him any more right than anyone else.
Personally I'm against bolt chopping per-se but when it comes to grit, they'll all rust away before too long anyway I suppose. Don't think he's going to start a crusade on chopping all bolts on grit, but then, you never know
He's somebody who's been climbing for over 15 years so I guess he knows what he's doing, but you're right, that doesn't give him any more right than anyone else.
Personally I'm against bolt chopping per-se but when it comes to grit, they'll all rust away before too long anyway I suppose. Don't think he's going to start a crusade on chopping all bolts on grit, but then, you never know
In reply to brendonTendon:
and there was me thinking the Peak had a strict 'no bolts in gritstone' ethic
and there was me thinking the Peak had a strict 'no bolts in gritstone' ethic
In reply to gridge:
These are old bolts in quarried grit - they've always been seen as different for some reason. There are a few legacy bolts in natural grit too - e.g. Plague at Rivelin
These are old bolts in quarried grit - they've always been seen as different for some reason. There are a few legacy bolts in natural grit too - e.g. Plague at Rivelin
In reply to brendonTendon:
Did he climb the route with the bolts in place first? If so, then I don't think he had any right to chop them. Whether they should have been there in the first place is a different argument altogether.
See ya,
al
Did he climb the route with the bolts in place first? If so, then I don't think he had any right to chop them. Whether they should have been there in the first place is a different argument altogether.
See ya,
al
In reply to Al Downie:
not sure Al, think he's done it in the past yes, but hasn't done it without - may be planning on doing so? He was talking about replacing a peg low down or something but I've no idea how the peg affects the route.
not sure Al, think he's done it in the past yes, but hasn't done it without - may be planning on doing so? He was talking about replacing a peg low down or something but I've no idea how the peg affects the route.
In reply to brendonTendon: He smashed some bolds on a Simon Nadin Route which had been retro bolted by Ian Dunn and then whet on to smash the bolts on an Ian Dunn route, as if he (Ian Dunn) couldn't respect other peoples routes why should others respect his. and the Sport vs Trad thing kicked off all over again
In reply to Ricky Martin:
I think the decision on retro-bolting should be left to the first-ascentionist. If someone puts a lot of work into a bold ascent, it's a bit out of order for someone to retro-bolt it. I think replacing shite bolts on sport-routes is fair enough though, I'd never be bothered if someone replaced some of my bolts with better ones.
I think the decision on retro-bolting should be left to the first-ascentionist. If someone puts a lot of work into a bold ascent, it's a bit out of order for someone to retro-bolt it. I think replacing shite bolts on sport-routes is fair enough though, I'd never be bothered if someone replaced some of my bolts with better ones.
In reply to brendonTendon: I agree with you there to retro bold someone elses route is not on, and to me retro bolting your own route would be pointless?
In reply to brendonTendon: I agree with you there to retro bold someone elses route is not on, and to me retro bolting your own route would be pointless? and iu also think choping good bolts on established sport routes on sport crags is out of order
In reply to Ricky Martin:
dunno, if I did a route that had magnificent climbing on it but nobody was doing it coz it was death on a stick then I might consider putting more bolts in.
I actually meant that I wouldn't mind if a route of mine had bolts that were becoming unsafe, I wouldn't mind if people replaced them with better ones, but keeping to the original number and location. Might have already happened actually, since I know there's a route to the left of one of mine that has been rebolted, with more bolts than the original. The first ascentionist now lives in the States though, so probably isn't bothered.
Bit hypothetical on wall st crash though - you'd have to be a bold person to whack a couple of shiny staples into millstone, as the trad-mafia would be on your ass!
dunno, if I did a route that had magnificent climbing on it but nobody was doing it coz it was death on a stick then I might consider putting more bolts in.
I actually meant that I wouldn't mind if a route of mine had bolts that were becoming unsafe, I wouldn't mind if people replaced them with better ones, but keeping to the original number and location. Might have already happened actually, since I know there's a route to the left of one of mine that has been rebolted, with more bolts than the original. The first ascentionist now lives in the States though, so probably isn't bothered.
Bit hypothetical on wall st crash though - you'd have to be a bold person to whack a couple of shiny staples into millstone, as the trad-mafia would be on your ass!
In reply to brendonTendon:
Replacing the peg is the worst thing he could do if he's trying to make an ethical statement. 'No new fixed gear on grit' should be absolute, I believe, and placing a peg - whether replacing an old one or hammering it in for the first time - should not happen.
Replacing the peg is the worst thing he could do if he's trying to make an ethical statement. 'No new fixed gear on grit' should be absolute, I believe, and placing a peg - whether replacing an old one or hammering it in for the first time - should not happen.
In reply to mark@apeindex.com:
yes, I agree, it seems a bit daft. I'm not entirely sure whether he has or not but he was talking about it. Maybe I'll have a word.
I'm not sure if he did it as an ethical statement though, might have just been to piss Johnny off
yes, I agree, it seems a bit daft. I'm not entirely sure whether he has or not but he was talking about it. Maybe I'll have a word.
I'm not sure if he did it as an ethical statement though, might have just been to piss Johnny off
In reply to brendonTendon:
To chop them AFTER having relied on them seems a bit pish to me, and inconsiderate of others who might have tried onsighting it in its original state. It's easy for him to say that the bolts are unnecessary if he's been on the route before.
See ya,
al
To chop them AFTER having relied on them seems a bit pish to me, and inconsiderate of others who might have tried onsighting it in its original state. It's easy for him to say that the bolts are unnecessary if he's been on the route before.
See ya,
al
In reply to Al Downie:
True - at least I suppose it's there for the taking now for whoever wants to do the first "pure" ascent.
Does anyone how much difference the bolts being in/out makes? I can't even picture the route, not having been up there for ages.
True - at least I suppose it's there for the taking now for whoever wants to do the first "pure" ascent.
Does anyone how much difference the bolts being in/out makes? I can't even picture the route, not having been up there for ages.
In reply to brendonTendon: From whay you are all saying, you should have asked J.Dawes before chopping the bolts.
Stu
Stu
In reply to brendonTendon:
If the idea of sport climbing is to push your limits without the risk then what if the first person to lead a route is particularly bold then isn't it possible for then to ruin a good line by making it dangerous through their positioning of the bolts?
An example on the lower tier at malham springs to mind where the original ascent had the first bolt about 3m off the ground after a difficult move, someone had put a bolt in that could be clipped from the ground but it had been chopped. This made the first move dicey (especially onsight) as if you come off you run the risk of falling back and potentially off the narrow walkway. If it was an ethical statement then isn't it abit odd as there are bolts all over the place?
If the idea of sport climbing is to push your limits without the risk then what if the first person to lead a route is particularly bold then isn't it possible for then to ruin a good line by making it dangerous through their positioning of the bolts?
An example on the lower tier at malham springs to mind where the original ascent had the first bolt about 3m off the ground after a difficult move, someone had put a bolt in that could be clipped from the ground but it had been chopped. This made the first move dicey (especially onsight) as if you come off you run the risk of falling back and potentially off the narrow walkway. If it was an ethical statement then isn't it abit odd as there are bolts all over the place?
In reply to dave thomas:
well what a fucking twat, i hope he leaves adam smiths alone! the whole thing with these old aid bolts is to keep falling on them until they come out,then do the route without, as in the case of scrittos. i have fallen onto Adam smiths bolts and they are sound, i also have done wall street crash and those bolts are even better, as for not even doing the route after chopping the bolts, and placing 2 pegs, the guy is mental.
new pegs on already established routes is bad, there is no getting away from it, (cross refer to the mike lea new peg on the bold bit of dharma) even on new routes it is now frowned upon (mike leas peg next to the friend placement on top loader, incidently with its 7 or so pegs, bolts etc )
i always thought dave thomas was mad!
well what a fucking twat, i hope he leaves adam smiths alone! the whole thing with these old aid bolts is to keep falling on them until they come out,then do the route without, as in the case of scrittos. i have fallen onto Adam smiths bolts and they are sound, i also have done wall street crash and those bolts are even better, as for not even doing the route after chopping the bolts, and placing 2 pegs, the guy is mental.
new pegs on already established routes is bad, there is no getting away from it, (cross refer to the mike lea new peg on the bold bit of dharma) even on new routes it is now frowned upon (mike leas peg next to the friend placement on top loader, incidently with its 7 or so pegs, bolts etc )
i always thought dave thomas was mad!
In reply to brendonTendon: sorry I still dont see the point the are plently of death on a stick routes outthat dont get many repeates that are have magnificent climbing on thats just they way climbing goes some routes are out of peoples ability either mentaly or physicaly ability they could dare I say it Tope Rope it (Now Ducking behind PC) but any how.
I do fully agree with re bolting a route in its original context thats purely a safty issue, but adding extra bolts not sure what to think on that one,for saftey Matts malham example it would probably agree with that example.
And you would have to have balls the size of and elefant to re bolt any grit route
I do fully agree with re bolting a route in its original context thats purely a safty issue, but adding extra bolts not sure what to think on that one,for saftey Matts malham example it would probably agree with that example.
And you would have to have balls the size of and elefant to re bolt any grit route
In reply to daniel honneyman:
I'd have thought if it's 'nae bolts on grit' - then that's it. Clear cut. So what if the quarries have old bolts in them. With the increase in bold climbing levels surely they bolts and pegs on grit should go. Just like the 'clean the pass' campaign back in the olden days.
I'd have thought if it's 'nae bolts on grit' - then that's it. Clear cut. So what if the quarries have old bolts in them. With the increase in bold climbing levels surely they bolts and pegs on grit should go. Just like the 'clean the pass' campaign back in the olden days.
In reply to Matt:
I was talking hypothetically really, I think your point about Malham is a good one - I think quite a few people hurt themselves getting to the first bolts - silly really. I think it was probably due to confused ethics at the time. I don't personally see the point of "sporting placements", but a lot of people used to.
In reply to Daniel Honneyman:
Well he mentioned Adam Smiths, but not sure if he's going to do it. I don't really know what his motives are, but I'll show him this thread so he can see general opinion.
So, are the bolts on Wall St Crash critical - sorry, I don't know the route? I agree that if you're chopping the bolts then it makes little sense to add pegs.
In reply to Ricky Martin:
I agree, it is a bit odd to add other bolts to an existing route - why not just bolt it up properly in the first place, but it does happen. The route I was thinking of was Dave Pegg's Breathless in Cheedale which was deliberately very sportingly bolted and has now been re-equipped, partly though because some holds fell off which made one of the clips harder.
I was talking hypothetically really, I think your point about Malham is a good one - I think quite a few people hurt themselves getting to the first bolts - silly really. I think it was probably due to confused ethics at the time. I don't personally see the point of "sporting placements", but a lot of people used to.
In reply to Daniel Honneyman:
Well he mentioned Adam Smiths, but not sure if he's going to do it. I don't really know what his motives are, but I'll show him this thread so he can see general opinion.
So, are the bolts on Wall St Crash critical - sorry, I don't know the route? I agree that if you're chopping the bolts then it makes little sense to add pegs.
In reply to Ricky Martin:
I agree, it is a bit odd to add other bolts to an existing route - why not just bolt it up properly in the first place, but it does happen. The route I was thinking of was Dave Pegg's Breathless in Cheedale which was deliberately very sportingly bolted and has now been re-equipped, partly though because some holds fell off which made one of the clips harder.
In reply to gridge:
I don't think these bolts in Millstone were put there by climbers. Taking them out would be like taking out the quarryman's spikes in the NW slate quarries, a bit daft.
I think taking the bolts out of WSC's a damned silly thing to do, and replacing the peg would be even worse. Dan H is right: just leave pegs, etc. and they'll wither away. There's no need for some ego-trip crusade. The guy's stated reason is ridiculous - so what if the bolts may fail? People who can climb E5/6 don't know that?
I'd say once the bolts are gone the peg's going to make very little difference. From what I understand the crux is too high for the peg to help. Effectively I'd think the route is now a solo at E7 or so, which is a shame from the point of view of punters like myself who wanted to do it in its original form.
Silly bastard.
I don't think these bolts in Millstone were put there by climbers. Taking them out would be like taking out the quarryman's spikes in the NW slate quarries, a bit daft.
I think taking the bolts out of WSC's a damned silly thing to do, and replacing the peg would be even worse. Dan H is right: just leave pegs, etc. and they'll wither away. There's no need for some ego-trip crusade. The guy's stated reason is ridiculous - so what if the bolts may fail? People who can climb E5/6 don't know that?
I'd say once the bolts are gone the peg's going to make very little difference. From what I understand the crux is too high for the peg to help. Effectively I'd think the route is now a solo at E7 or so, which is a shame from the point of view of punters like myself who wanted to do it in its original form.
Silly bastard.
In reply to John Cox:
Can I just say John, that the "stated reason" was only one of his motives, and I don't think the main one - I think he may have other reasons only known to himself - I think Johnny has taken it as a personal insult so maybe it's something between those two.
I agree that things should either be left as they were, unless the bolts were so bad that the next person to lob onto them would strip them or something.
Can I just say John, that the "stated reason" was only one of his motives, and I don't think the main one - I think he may have other reasons only known to himself - I think Johnny has taken it as a personal insult so maybe it's something between those two.
I agree that things should either be left as they were, unless the bolts were so bad that the next person to lob onto them would strip them or something.
In reply to brendonTendon:
>I think Johnny has taken it as a personal insult so maybe it's something between those two<
You're not selling your mate very well here. He thinks it's a good idea to vandalise routes at the expense of the climbing community at large so that he can get one over on Johnny?
Maybe he should get himself over to Curbar and chisel End of the Affair while he's about it.
>I think Johnny has taken it as a personal insult so maybe it's something between those two<
You're not selling your mate very well here. He thinks it's a good idea to vandalise routes at the expense of the climbing community at large so that he can get one over on Johnny?
Maybe he should get himself over to Curbar and chisel End of the Affair while he's about it.
In reply to brendonTendon: Time to name and shame, this guy (if this whole thread is not a troll) is a total tosser. He has destroyed a fine route that has been enjoyed by many (myself included) and created what ?? a blank piece of friable rock that will never be climbed again.
What a total arse, what is his name ? or is he taking such a high moral stand that he wishes to remain anonymous ? derr
If I haven't made my feelings clear then let me recap he's a total f**kwit !
Tosser
What a total arse, what is his name ? or is he taking such a high moral stand that he wishes to remain anonymous ? derr
If I haven't made my feelings clear then let me recap he's a total f**kwit !
Tosser
In reply to brendonTendon:
Replacing the peg is the worst thing he could do if he's trying to make an ethical statement. 'No new fixed gear on grit' should be absolute, I believe, and placing a peg - whether replacing an old one or hammering it in for the first time - should not happen.
Replacing the peg is the worst thing he could do if he's trying to make an ethical statement. 'No new fixed gear on grit' should be absolute, I believe, and placing a peg - whether replacing an old one or hammering it in for the first time - should not happen.
In reply to brendonTendon:
I tried Wall Street Crash ealier this year. I believe it is standard to ab down and place wires over the bolt heads prior to going for the lead - this is what I did.
The bolt heads protected a short hard section to a mid height break which marks the end of the hard climbing.
I believe the really bold section of the route is getting to clip the first of the two bolt heads and also believe that the bolts would hold the small falls you could take getting to the break.
It seems to me that your m8 has effectively removed a 3 star E5 route from a number of peoples tick lists - including mine.
I struggle to understand why your m8 chopped the bolt heads as no one leads the route without placing slings/ wires over the bolt heads allowing any prospective leader the opportunity to make a personal decision over the safety offered by the bolts.
Please could you ask your m8 to post on this forum explaining his actions and let us know who he is.
I tried Wall Street Crash ealier this year. I believe it is standard to ab down and place wires over the bolt heads prior to going for the lead - this is what I did.
The bolt heads protected a short hard section to a mid height break which marks the end of the hard climbing.
I believe the really bold section of the route is getting to clip the first of the two bolt heads and also believe that the bolts would hold the small falls you could take getting to the break.
It seems to me that your m8 has effectively removed a 3 star E5 route from a number of peoples tick lists - including mine.
I struggle to understand why your m8 chopped the bolt heads as no one leads the route without placing slings/ wires over the bolt heads allowing any prospective leader the opportunity to make a personal decision over the safety offered by the bolts.
Please could you ask your m8 to post on this forum explaining his actions and let us know who he is.
In reply to The Fat One:
Thought Daniel H had made that clear - Dave Thomas is the doer of the deed.
In reply to John Cox:
I'm not trying to sell him, just stating the facts and seeing what people think. Personally it's something I wouldn't have done, or even thought about doing myself but he told me about it and I said I'd see what rocktalk thought, as it's always a good way of getting a cross-section of opinion. He's not a chipper though, I'll say that for him.
It'd be interesting to see what Johnny has to say on the matter, or maybe we should get Dave on here to tell it like it is and explain himself.
Thought Daniel H had made that clear - Dave Thomas is the doer of the deed.
In reply to John Cox:
I'm not trying to sell him, just stating the facts and seeing what people think. Personally it's something I wouldn't have done, or even thought about doing myself but he told me about it and I said I'd see what rocktalk thought, as it's always a good way of getting a cross-section of opinion. He's not a chipper though, I'll say that for him.
It'd be interesting to see what Johnny has to say on the matter, or maybe we should get Dave on here to tell it like it is and explain himself.
In reply to brendonTendon:
When this thread has run it's course, I'll print it off and show it to Dave, and give him the opportunity to reply (he's not online).
When this thread has run it's course, I'll print it off and show it to Dave, and give him the opportunity to reply (he's not online).
In reply to brendonTendon:
I have to agree with the general opinion here. This is the most stupid action I have heard of for a long time so much so that I suspect the whole thing could be a windup.
Can anyone confirm?
If it isn't a windup then we better keep an eye out for this chap since there are other routes at Millstone he could ruin. Next thing you know he'll be filling in the shot holes on Master's Edge because "they aren't natural"!
Alan
I have to agree with the general opinion here. This is the most stupid action I have heard of for a long time so much so that I suspect the whole thing could be a windup.
Can anyone confirm?
If it isn't a windup then we better keep an eye out for this chap since there are other routes at Millstone he could ruin. Next thing you know he'll be filling in the shot holes on Master's Edge because "they aren't natural"!
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
It's not a windup unless he's bullshitting me, and it didn't sound like that.
I'm certainly not winding anyone up, I'm not that bored
It's not a windup unless he's bullshitting me, and it didn't sound like that.
I'm certainly not winding anyone up, I'm not that bored
mark@apeindex.com has just spoken to Dave:
Here's what he said...
He abseiled down Wall Street Crash intent on unscrewing the old bolts used as protection on the route. Why? Various reasons which I'm not going to try to detail as I can't be sure I'd get them right. The bolts would not unscrew so he hammered them off with, he claims, minimal damage to the rock. He then had a look at the peg lower down on the route. Finding it to be, in his opinion, badly rusted, he hammered it out and replaced it with a new one. The old peg turned out to be in better condition than he had expected. He then placed a second new peg in an old peg hole higher up the route. Dave has not climbed the route either before or since his antics.
In reply to The Fat One:
Is this the blond haired guy who was at the Woody when I was last there?
But just in case I don't see him there (with all my holiday and work commitments) - Dave Thomas - on this bolt chopping issue you have been a MAJOR ARSE!
N.B if this is just a windup I apologise to Dave in retrospect and will not bother with Rocktalk again.
Is this the blond haired guy who was at the Woody when I was last there?
But just in case I don't see him there (with all my holiday and work commitments) - Dave Thomas - on this bolt chopping issue you have been a MAJOR ARSE!
N.B if this is just a windup I apologise to Dave in retrospect and will not bother with Rocktalk again.
In reply to brendonTendon:
Excuse my non-Sheffield ignorance here: are we talking about soloing-Lord-of-the-Flies Dave Thomas, or the other one?
Doesn't seem to be a popular move, not surprisingly. Are we going to hear his reasons?
Excuse my non-Sheffield ignorance here: are we talking about soloing-Lord-of-the-Flies Dave Thomas, or the other one?
Doesn't seem to be a popular move, not surprisingly. Are we going to hear his reasons?
(Sorry to mark for posting that before fully consulting him)
In reply to John Cox:
Yes, it is the Lord of the Flies Dave T.
No, definitely not a popular move - let's hope he's not on a mission. Like I say, I'll show him this after the evening users have had a chance to have their say.
In reply to John Cox:
Yes, it is the Lord of the Flies Dave T.
No, definitely not a popular move - let's hope he's not on a mission. Like I say, I'll show him this after the evening users have had a chance to have their say.
In reply to brendonTendon:
I have to say this all sounds completely incredible.
He flattened to existing bolts! Given what right!
He then added a NEW peg! You've got to be kidding, surely?
Why do we have the BMC and the Climbing Club if any old climber can take it into his own head to decide what is correct? I don't care how many years experience he has!
Adrian Bates
I have to say this all sounds completely incredible.
He flattened to existing bolts! Given what right!
He then added a NEW peg! You've got to be kidding, surely?
Why do we have the BMC and the Climbing Club if any old climber can take it into his own head to decide what is correct? I don't care how many years experience he has!
Adrian Bates
In reply to Adrian Bates:
are the bmc and the climbing club the rock police or something?
i'm just amazed that everone here thinks it's a big deal to chop bolts in gritstone.
'It seems to me that your m8 has effectively removed a 3 star E5 route from a number of peoples tick lists - including mine'.
fuck that, get more bolts in - make it an E3 - even i would be able to do it then.
are the bmc and the climbing club the rock police or something?
i'm just amazed that everone here thinks it's a big deal to chop bolts in gritstone.
'It seems to me that your m8 has effectively removed a 3 star E5 route from a number of peoples tick lists - including mine'.
fuck that, get more bolts in - make it an E3 - even i would be able to do it then.
In reply to dave T:
well, i suppose its a good way to get in the mags if you havent actually done any decent climbing since 1991,
and the only grit route youve done is an eliminate using the left hand holds of hairless heart for your right hand!
well, i suppose its a good way to get in the mags if you havent actually done any decent climbing since 1991,
and the only grit route youve done is an eliminate using the left hand holds of hairless heart for your right hand!
I am not usually one to butt in ,ref some route I have never done or heard of but I am intrigued r.e the ethics of this incident.
What happened? I'm lost.
Were the bolts put in by JD?
They were then taken out by this other bloke... Were they dodgy?
Can it be climbed without the bolts?
Does it affect the grade not having the bolts there?
Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
Are they in damn near the same place?
What happened? I'm lost.
Were the bolts put in by JD?
They were then taken out by this other bloke... Were they dodgy?
Can it be climbed without the bolts?
Does it affect the grade not having the bolts there?
Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
Are they in damn near the same place?
In reply to Jo - Nice but Dim:
Obviously anything that has been physically done can be climbed without bolts.......
can be.......
(Me, I'd stick 'em all over the place.)
d a m ned
Obviously anything that has been physically done can be climbed without bolts.......
can be.......
(Me, I'd stick 'em all over the place.)
d a m ned
In reply to Jo - Nice but Dim:
Were the bolts put in by JD?
No the bolts were put in many years ago by aid climbers.
They were then taken out by this other bloke... Were they dodgy?
Yes they were dodgy but there were two of them and falls at that point would only have been 'micro-slumps' hence you would have been extremely unlucky to pull both. Then again it is E5 so you would expect that.
Does it affect the grade not having the bolts there?
They were the major bit of protection for the crux. I would think that it is up in the E6/7 category now, possible groundfall ... I don't know. I doubt it will be climbed again.
Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
No. Curiously enough that would be REALLY controversial as opposed to just bloody stupid.
He has basically ruined a really good route for no apparent reason as far as I can see.
Alan
Were the bolts put in by JD?
No the bolts were put in many years ago by aid climbers.
They were then taken out by this other bloke... Were they dodgy?
Yes they were dodgy but there were two of them and falls at that point would only have been 'micro-slumps' hence you would have been extremely unlucky to pull both. Then again it is E5 so you would expect that.
Does it affect the grade not having the bolts there?
They were the major bit of protection for the crux. I would think that it is up in the E6/7 category now, possible groundfall ... I don't know. I doubt it will be climbed again.
Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
No. Curiously enough that would be REALLY controversial as opposed to just bloody stupid.
He has basically ruined a really good route for no apparent reason as far as I can see.
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
again, i'm totally amazed at what's been said: 'I would think that it is up in the E6/7', and I doubt it will be climbed again'.
I thought all the Hard Grit hype would mean the route would most definately be climbed again, by those operating at that level.
I guess that's the problem with the 'bold is best' ethic - it uses up rock resource - limiting the numbers who can climb the route. After all, with 6 nice Fixe bolts in the line what grade would it get? and how many more people would climb it?
again, i'm totally amazed at what's been said: 'I would think that it is up in the E6/7', and I doubt it will be climbed again'.
I thought all the Hard Grit hype would mean the route would most definately be climbed again, by those operating at that level.
I guess that's the problem with the 'bold is best' ethic - it uses up rock resource - limiting the numbers who can climb the route. After all, with 6 nice Fixe bolts in the line what grade would it get? and how many more people would climb it?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
thank you Alan, all that copying and pasting in the previous posts had me confused as to what was going on! I could have sworn I read he put bolts back in somewhere. Hey ho.
Yes, ok, now I have an clearer idea what going on.....yup.....bad thing to do......
But you said you doubt it will ever be climbed again. Think thats been said by a lot of people about a lot of routes that have subsequently been climbed again!
thank you Alan, all that copying and pasting in the previous posts had me confused as to what was going on! I could have sworn I read he put bolts back in somewhere. Hey ho.
Yes, ok, now I have an clearer idea what going on.....yup.....bad thing to do......
But you said you doubt it will ever be climbed again. Think thats been said by a lot of people about a lot of routes that have subsequently been climbed again!
In reply to brendonTendon:Having been to Millstone tonight and bumped into Dave T at Keyhole Cave the facts are these: there are now two pegs. The lowest replaces the first peg and is "a good one". The second is higher but below the two old bolt placements. Dave thought this might not be as good a peg as the first, but is not far from crux moves. If you fell from the moves prior to the break and the upper peg held the route would be steady at E5. If it rips, and you've got a good belayer, you should just miss the deck. With just the lower peg the route would be E6 or higher.
Regarding Scritto's, the bolt was not removed by the guy who soloed it. The solo followed practice and was done above 'padding' that makes a metolius mat look like a car mat, so can not be held up as a great example of bolt removing ethics!
Regarding Scritto's, the bolt was not removed by the guy who soloed it. The solo followed practice and was done above 'padding' that makes a metolius mat look like a car mat, so can not be held up as a great example of bolt removing ethics!
In reply to Graham:
That's all very well, Graham, but doesn't answer the main question, which is, what the hell does this guy think he's doing?
That's all very well, Graham, but doesn't answer the main question, which is, what the hell does this guy think he's doing?
In reply to brendonTendon:
Has any one been up there today to see what has happened?
Bolts or not it will be climbed again.
Has any one been up there today to see what has happened?
Bolts or not it will be climbed again.
In reply to gr:
"fuck that, get more bolts in - make it an E3 - even i would be able to do it then."
Your comments suggest to me, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Why would anyone want to put any more bolts in WSC so losers like you could get up it?
"fuck that, get more bolts in - make it an E3 - even i would be able to do it then."
Your comments suggest to me, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Why would anyone want to put any more bolts in WSC so losers like you could get up it?
In reply to Simon Cox:
its called taking the piss.
btw do only losers climb less than E5?
its called taking the piss.
btw do only losers climb less than E5?
In reply to gridge:
I have always considered myself to be a bit of a climbing "joker", so obviously anyone who climbs below E5/ B8 is either a joker or a loser - take your pick.
Now when you climb above E6/ B9 you demand respect, O Fat One will you come to Font with me and show me "The Way" on Voie De Flirt?
The Great Percy hopefully will be checking it out for me next weekend.
Sorry gridge I dind't realise you were taking the piss - it must be your awful sense of humour - you are scotch aren't you?!
I have always considered myself to be a bit of a climbing "joker", so obviously anyone who climbs below E5/ B8 is either a joker or a loser - take your pick.
Now when you climb above E6/ B9 you demand respect, O Fat One will you come to Font with me and show me "The Way" on Voie De Flirt?
The Great Percy hopefully will be checking it out for me next weekend.
Sorry gridge I dind't realise you were taking the piss - it must be your awful sense of humour - you are scotch aren't you?!
In reply to: '
i have had a look today actually, (trying psychopath - well bold!)
it still looks E5, the pegs are shiny and placed on the wall, in an excuse for a hairline crack, left a nice few yellow scars,
well the deed is done, i just hope he doesnt do it to adam smiths, top loader, appointment with fear , etc
i have had a look today actually, (trying psychopath - well bold!)
it still looks E5, the pegs are shiny and placed on the wall, in an excuse for a hairline crack, left a nice few yellow scars,
well the deed is done, i just hope he doesnt do it to adam smiths, top loader, appointment with fear , etc
In reply to daniel honneyman:
well, I've let him know that just about everyone thinks that it was a bad, bad idea.
well, I've let him know that just about everyone thinks that it was a bad, bad idea.
In reply to brendonTendon:
So is he going to tell us why? Surely someone with the courage to solo Lord can find the guts to explain himself. Or is he too important to do that?
So is he going to tell us why? Surely someone with the courage to solo Lord can find the guts to explain himself. Or is he too important to do that?
In reply to brendonTendon:
The lads in Outside are none to happy! He must have done a runner after writing up his report of the incident!
The lads in Outside are none to happy! He must have done a runner after writing up his report of the incident!
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
"Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
No. Curiously enough that would be REALLY controversial as opposed to just bloody stupid."
Yes, this is the bit I can't get my head round! If it's OK to have bolts on a route on quarried grit, why, in principle, would it be so controversial to replace them if they became unsafe (leaving aside the question of whether they actually were unsafe)? Old bolts are ethical why exactly? Because that's how the route was done and it's kind of fun to do a naughty bolted grit route, but of course we couldn't be seen to put any in ourselves?
What is this mystical process John Cox seems keen on of allowing bolts (and pegs) to remain until they eventually fade away, but not replacing them. Is it it some sort of atonement/healing Gaia thing?
I'm not saying who I think is right or wrong here, I'm just puzzled by the lack of consistent logic.
"Has this bloke then put replacement bolts in?
No. Curiously enough that would be REALLY controversial as opposed to just bloody stupid."
Yes, this is the bit I can't get my head round! If it's OK to have bolts on a route on quarried grit, why, in principle, would it be so controversial to replace them if they became unsafe (leaving aside the question of whether they actually were unsafe)? Old bolts are ethical why exactly? Because that's how the route was done and it's kind of fun to do a naughty bolted grit route, but of course we couldn't be seen to put any in ourselves?
What is this mystical process John Cox seems keen on of allowing bolts (and pegs) to remain until they eventually fade away, but not replacing them. Is it it some sort of atonement/healing Gaia thing?
I'm not saying who I think is right or wrong here, I'm just puzzled by the lack of consistent logic.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
at last, someone else who finds 'the bolts / pegs acceptable on grit (as long as it's quarried)' arguement somewhat strange!
at last, someone else who finds 'the bolts / pegs acceptable on grit (as long as it's quarried)' arguement somewhat strange!
In reply to gridge:
It's not even as simple as that. It's the "old bolts / pegs are acceptable on quarried grit as long as they aren't reliable and aren't replaced with ones that are", argument that I don't understand!
It's not even as simple as that. It's the "old bolts / pegs are acceptable on quarried grit as long as they aren't reliable and aren't replaced with ones that are", argument that I don't understand!
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Logic doesn't come into it. It's a matter of aesthetics. All the more important to achieve a consensus, which is why this undiscussed vandalism was such a simply ludicrous act.
I'm particularly disappointed because you hear rumours that DT is an attention-seeking w*nker. I make it a matter of principle to disregard this sort of rumour and judge for myself, and having met the fellow randomly at crags a couple of times he seemed like an OK sort of guy. Now it seems that he's, errrr, an attention-seeking w*nker. A bit of a blow to my world view.
(You're not serious, btw, about retrobolting these routes? Surely you agree this would fundamentally change their character? Have you ever seen the old bolts on Adam Smith or WSC (too late now, of course)?)
Logic doesn't come into it. It's a matter of aesthetics. All the more important to achieve a consensus, which is why this undiscussed vandalism was such a simply ludicrous act.
I'm particularly disappointed because you hear rumours that DT is an attention-seeking w*nker. I make it a matter of principle to disregard this sort of rumour and judge for myself, and having met the fellow randomly at crags a couple of times he seemed like an OK sort of guy. Now it seems that he's, errrr, an attention-seeking w*nker. A bit of a blow to my world view.
(You're not serious, btw, about retrobolting these routes? Surely you agree this would fundamentally change their character? Have you ever seen the old bolts on Adam Smith or WSC (too late now, of course)?)
In reply to John Cox:
What? And allowing old bolts to rot away until someone removes them en route to the deck doesn't fundamentally change their character? Either the bolt is 'ethical' (whatever that means) and it stays, or it isn't and it should go immediately.
You really do seem to be saying that dodgy old bolts are OK either because they are 'aesthetic' (as opposed to what, the same route without?) or because they are dodgy (is it the certainty of safety you object to?). Perhaps someone should make distressed fake Victorian-style bolts for use in such 'aesthetic' post-industrial situations.
On the other hand "Logic doesn't come into it." QED.
What? And allowing old bolts to rot away until someone removes them en route to the deck doesn't fundamentally change their character? Either the bolt is 'ethical' (whatever that means) and it stays, or it isn't and it should go immediately.
You really do seem to be saying that dodgy old bolts are OK either because they are 'aesthetic' (as opposed to what, the same route without?) or because they are dodgy (is it the certainty of safety you object to?). Perhaps someone should make distressed fake Victorian-style bolts for use in such 'aesthetic' post-industrial situations.
On the other hand "Logic doesn't come into it." QED.
In reply to John Cox:
so is it more aethetically pleasing to have old bolt studs in grit (quarried or natural) than to have the rock unadorned?
likewise on crags like raven tor - should the old bolts, pegs and tat be left in? (i haven't been there for about 5 years, perhaps it's tidier than it was?)
so is it more aethetically pleasing to have old bolt studs in grit (quarried or natural) than to have the rock unadorned?
likewise on crags like raven tor - should the old bolts, pegs and tat be left in? (i haven't been there for about 5 years, perhaps it's tidier than it was?)
In reply to gridge: Bolts such as those in WSC are a throwback to the good old days of 'dangle and whack'. They were placed before 'free' climbing of this grade was considered possible and it has been generally accepted by the climbing comunity that they should be allowed to dissapear over time, but whilst they still exit they are there to be used as fixed protection.
WSC is (was) an excellent little route which regularly got climbed, not any more, because some moron has decided to inflict his personal ideals on the whole climbing population without bothering to consult any one. To add insult to injury it would appear that he hasn't bothered to climb it either with the bolts or without!, the word 'tosser' immediately springs to mind.
WSC will be climbed again but only by a fraction of those who have enjoyed it before and now, only to prove a point, rarther than to enjoy the climbing.
I hope Dave Thomas is now going to chop the bolts on Adam Smiths..., Wristcutters Lullaby, Apointment with Fear, Plague and a host of other long standing excellent routes that feature protection from a by-gone era but which are none-the less fine routes.
I hope he then going to fill in any peg cracks also created by aid climbers ... that London Wall eeh its disgracefull.
Sometimes you wonder what on earth is going on in other peoples minds, in the case of DT, obviously not very much !
WSC is (was) an excellent little route which regularly got climbed, not any more, because some moron has decided to inflict his personal ideals on the whole climbing population without bothering to consult any one. To add insult to injury it would appear that he hasn't bothered to climb it either with the bolts or without!, the word 'tosser' immediately springs to mind.
WSC will be climbed again but only by a fraction of those who have enjoyed it before and now, only to prove a point, rarther than to enjoy the climbing.
I hope Dave Thomas is now going to chop the bolts on Adam Smiths..., Wristcutters Lullaby, Apointment with Fear, Plague and a host of other long standing excellent routes that feature protection from a by-gone era but which are none-the less fine routes.
I hope he then going to fill in any peg cracks also created by aid climbers ... that London Wall eeh its disgracefull.
Sometimes you wonder what on earth is going on in other peoples minds, in the case of DT, obviously not very much !
In reply to Dave Garnett:
The fundamental point is that these are matters that should be discussed by the climbing community at large before some idiot takes it into his head to take unilateral action, and I doubt if either of us disagree about that.
And do stop going on about logic as if you were making some clever point. There's no logic to my position, and there's no logic to yours, because the question 'what should our ethics with regard to old fixed gear in gritstone quarries be?' is simply not one that admits of a logical answer, and that's that.
There's nothing logical about not bolting up White Wand. It's just what most of us would prefer.
The fundamental point is that these are matters that should be discussed by the climbing community at large before some idiot takes it into his head to take unilateral action, and I doubt if either of us disagree about that.
And do stop going on about logic as if you were making some clever point. There's no logic to my position, and there's no logic to yours, because the question 'what should our ethics with regard to old fixed gear in gritstone quarries be?' is simply not one that admits of a logical answer, and that's that.
There's nothing logical about not bolting up White Wand. It's just what most of us would prefer.
In reply to John Cox:
OK, let's not talk about logic, let's try consistency.
And you're right, I do think that chopping these bolts without consulting anyone (especially without doing the route subsequently) was a pretty self-obsessed thing to do. But if everyone thinks Wall Street Crash was such a great route, but it would offend aesthetics to put modern bolts in it, then why not replace what's been chopped with some suitable old railway bolts or something? If we cement up chipping and clean off graffiti (aesthetic considerations, really) then why not get the old routes restoration squad to fix it?
If it was fine (and fun) to clip these old bolts last week, then why not put them back so we can go on enjoying ourselves?
OK, let's not talk about logic, let's try consistency.
And you're right, I do think that chopping these bolts without consulting anyone (especially without doing the route subsequently) was a pretty self-obsessed thing to do. But if everyone thinks Wall Street Crash was such a great route, but it would offend aesthetics to put modern bolts in it, then why not replace what's been chopped with some suitable old railway bolts or something? If we cement up chipping and clean off graffiti (aesthetic considerations, really) then why not get the old routes restoration squad to fix it?
If it was fine (and fun) to clip these old bolts last week, then why not put them back so we can go on enjoying ourselves?
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Ah, consistency. The hobgoblin of little minds. (I forget who said that. But I know who said 'Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes.' It was Walt Whitman. Damn. I should have saved that until I needed it.)
To me, it's pretty simple. Fifteen years ago the FA walked up to the crag, took what it offered at the time, and created a route. That has stayed the same for fifteen years, and we ought to leave it. Stiff-necked retro-cleansing ignores the history of the route and the place, to my mind.
There are a very few routes of this character (ie depending on old fixed bolts for protection), and I think they add to the character of quarry climbing rather than detract from it. There's no point in discussing it, really, if I were in a minority in that view and the old bolts got removed, that would be fair enough.
But replacing them's out of the question. Drill some new holes? On grit? We can't go on bashing fixed gear into grit, as a group I think climbers have pretty much decided there shouldn't be any more. So to my mind the new peg was the stupidest part of all.
Ah, consistency. The hobgoblin of little minds. (I forget who said that. But I know who said 'Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes.' It was Walt Whitman. Damn. I should have saved that until I needed it.)
To me, it's pretty simple. Fifteen years ago the FA walked up to the crag, took what it offered at the time, and created a route. That has stayed the same for fifteen years, and we ought to leave it. Stiff-necked retro-cleansing ignores the history of the route and the place, to my mind.
There are a very few routes of this character (ie depending on old fixed bolts for protection), and I think they add to the character of quarry climbing rather than detract from it. There's no point in discussing it, really, if I were in a minority in that view and the old bolts got removed, that would be fair enough.
But replacing them's out of the question. Drill some new holes? On grit? We can't go on bashing fixed gear into grit, as a group I think climbers have pretty much decided there shouldn't be any more. So to my mind the new peg was the stupidest part of all.
In reply to John Cox:
I think it was "foolish consistency", but I guess this is all heading that way.
Why not get Peak Practice to film something up there and leave something useful behind for a change?
I think it was "foolish consistency", but I guess this is all heading that way.
Why not get Peak Practice to film something up there and leave something useful behind for a change?
In reply to John Cox: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Ralph Waldo Emerson.
In reply to John2:
Thank you. And Dave obviously knew too but was too polite to say.
Horrible suspicion enters mind - you folk don't use AID for outquoting me, do you?
Thank you. And Dave obviously knew too but was too polite to say.
Horrible suspicion enters mind - you folk don't use AID for outquoting me, do you?
In reply to John Cox: Touche
In reply to John2:
In the office?! I thought you were supposed to have broken your heel. Don't tell me I gave you those get-well-soon wishes under false pretences.
In the office?! I thought you were supposed to have broken your heel. Don't tell me I gave you those get-well-soon wishes under false pretences.
In reply to John Cox: My employers were so upset at my absence that they are giving me a lift from Reading to Coventry every week and paying for me to stay in a hotel for the next month. It's actually quite difficult to look after yourself while on crutches, so room service is a very useful luxury. I still found being in hospital preferable to being at work though.
In reply to John Cox:
Aid? Pahh! You don't want all the stuff about living with animals too do you?
OK. Where does WW say "It's good to fall". Obviously a man after your own heart.
Aid? Pahh! You don't want all the stuff about living with animals too do you?
OK. Where does WW say "It's good to fall". Obviously a man after your own heart.
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