UKC

I am curious on people views but mainly the sponsored climbers on them using mats for hard trad ascents.
Such as the Buys on Loaded, Promise, Snap Decision. Holding on Balance it is

Is this pressure from sponsors to get their brand out there or is this a risk reduction approach?

If it is for the sponsor, do climbers attempt the route beforehand with out pads as they feel it is not done in the same fashion as the first ascensionist and therefore actually a step backwards in ethics.

Or is actually a change in ethics at the elite/sponsored end of climbing that is now excepted?

In reply to Kaya:

I think they just want to avoid hurting themselves if/when they fall off.

In reply to Kaya: would you want to climb a potentially back-breaking route without some form of protection just because it makes it more serious? I know I wouldn't!

In reply to Kaya: again? really?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I expect most people on here must have done this quite often. Have you never soloed anything? Why would you do that if not to make it more serious?

In reply to Dave Garnett: Lots of reasons. Convenience probably being the largest factor. Why bother leading a route below your limit when you can solo it? Unless you're soloing close to, or at your limit, then it doesn't really make the route more serious.

In reply to Kaya:

does it matter really its probably a bit of both

In reply to Mike Nolan:

You must suffer from a serious lack of imagination if you can't see that soloing is more serious than leading at any grade. You could have asked Paul Williams or Jimmy Jewel if they were still around.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I don't solo routes to make them more serious and I do use a mat if I have one. I solo certain routes well below my limit where the risk of falling due to inability is negligable.

I solo routes like that to save time not for ego or anything like that.

In reply to Kaya: seems to me if you solo a few grades below what you lead a mat shouldnt be used ,if your soloing on your top grade maybe ..

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I think actually Kaya's made a good point, I'm not sure that sponsors really have much to do with it to be honest, but I'm all for improving ethics and equalling or bettering the style of the first ascentionist.

And if you want to solo routes to save time, surely that is an ego thing, it means you just want more climbs in your logbook, you're not bothered about the route. I for one like to solo routes because its an added challenge, and I like the feeling you get from soloing

In reply to Sam Marks:


Strange remark. I quite often solo a route that looks great but I don't want to spend the time leading it because within my soloing limits. Especially true when on a trip and there's a low-grade classic right in front of me. It's partly to save time, partly make the climbing more enjoyable, and 100% about the route.

In reply to Sam Marks:


Not everybody has logbooks on here though. It could be to save time in getting more climbing done before you have to go home again, or go to work.

Tim

In reply to Kaya:

They use mats because they want to, with climbing becoming more mainstream and gear a hell of a lot more varied and safer then it was years ago, old school ethics are being replaced with people climbing how they want to climb and so they should. It seems riduculous not to use a mat to make something safer just because u fell pressured too, if people want to 'go matless' then that is there choice but personally i don't think anything more of them for it, mats are widely available so why not use one. Buys used a Mat on Loaded big deal 90% of people on this forum (myself included) couldn't climb loaded with or without a mat same goes for balance it is and lots of other hard routes.

In reply to Adam Moroz: To me its just another form of pro. People use cams on routes that the FA didnt use cams on and no one cares.

In reply to Scrump:

Indeed. Cams were initially viewed as unethical (or at least with some suspicion) by many people I knew. Five years later, they were all using them!

Once the genie's out of the bottle, he won't easily go back in again.

T'was always thus - in climbing, in most things.

Mick

In reply to Kaya:

it's not so much a change in ethics as a progression in style over time. Should I climb everything on stanage in hobnails and flat cap to preserve ethics?

It's a logical step to use what protection is available to you to protect a route regardless of how it was original climbed.

In reply to Kaya: It seems to be because if you fall from say 3m, landing on a pad, will be allot better than on rocks...

I often use a pad at the bottom of routes I solo- I don't solo to make things more serious though, it's because I'v got no gear/ partner:s

In reply to Mick Ward:
>T'was always thus - in climbing, in most things

Yeh, I remember when motorways were empty because not many people liked them.

In reply to Timmd: So do you not solo simply because you like the feeling of soloing and what you get out of it?

In reply to Adam Moroz:

Do you have no values in the old, traditional ethics? This seems very dangerous for the futrure of climbing, soon it wont be what it is or was, it'll be a tamed lion in a zoo as apposed to a lion in jungle. Also I dont see why you wouldn't think anyone higher for going 'matless', surely you should have respect for bouldness, it's one of the main parts of climbing, we should always remember that climbing is not purely about ability, it's about having a range of skills to get you up a route in best style.

In reply to Dave Garnett: Obviously there are exceptions to this, of course there is going to be people who solo at their limit. However, for a majority of climbers, this is definitely not the case.

In reply to Sam Marks: Just out of interest, do you climb with a hemp rope around your waist? Whether you like it or not, climbing has become more like a zoo, you can pretend your some sort of purist, but you're most certainly not.

In reply to Mike Nolan:
I don't think a 15 year old will know what a hemp rope is!

Climbing evolves and we move with times

In reply to Bimbler:

Clearly the people who make them aren't doing enough sponsorship deals!

In reply to Mike Nolan: I'm not a purist, but I don't see a problem with aspiring to be a purist, or atleast climb routes in as pure style as possible. I havent provoked you, I've just made a point about style. If I were you I'd be pleased that someone of a younger generation was wanting to keep traditional ethics. Why would you want to see a lion in a zoo if you can find it in the wild?

In reply to Bimbler: Funnily enough I have climbed with a hemp rope around my waist before...

In reply to Kaya:

Seriously?

I imagine like most folk who use pads it's because they do like climbing the way they do but don't like getting hurt.

jk

In reply to Sam Marks:


Why do you equate less safe with better?


What a load of crap! Plenty of people climb for the sheer joy of it, it has nothing to do with keeping logs or collecting trophies.


I don't.

jk

In reply to Sam Marks: couldnt agree more with you Sam,and I couldnt have put it better..its like cheatin at Golf,you know that the guy who dosnt is the better man,Tainted Ticks I call them.but it aint goin to change

In reply to Kaya:

As has been said before, the genie is out of the bottle and won't go back in. Pads do provide an ideal billboard for manufacturers though, shirts, quickdraws, harnesses won't carry a big enough logo.

In reply to Sam Marks:
Does anyone know if Dave Mac used a pad on The Longhope?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

>"Does anyone know if Dave Mac used a pad on The Longhope?"

I don't think he had the decorators in...

In reply to victorclimber: Golf has very definite rules though. What you can and can't do is pretty clear and by playing you're agreeing to abide by those rules. The only rules in climbing are the ones you set for yourself, thus no one really cares what you think a 'tainted tick' is because they're too busy out climbing for their own enjoyment.

In reply to Mike Nolan:


I only trying (and obviously failing) to make what I thought was the uncontroversial point that soloing is self-evidently more serious, even at easy grades. Neither Paul Williams or Jimmy Jewel were soloing at their limit. Not within a mile of his limit in Jimmy's case.

Up until now, I had also believed that, for almost everyone, the extra spice of knowing the seriousness, but being confident in your ability, was a large part of the extra pleasure of soloing. I've obviously been missing the point, which is apparently that it's quicker.

In reply to Kaya:

Lets put it in perspective - this debate is only really relevant to short grit routes. It has no bearing on the majority of climbs in the country and not even all grit routes.

On a global scale, a lot of our grit 'routes' ARE boulder problems and all we are seeing is the recognition of that fact. Its not an undermining of good style (NOT ethics) IMO

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I don't like added risk but I do solo to save time on on shorter grit routes where you're unlikely to die if you fall off, and the faff to climbing ratio is pretty high if you do go for the lead. It is nice to climb unencumbered by all the kit. The line between a short solo and a highball boulder problem is pretty fuzzy though.

Of course we also solo to save time on easy ground in the Alps where the consequences of falling are very serious, but the serious consequences of being too slow are a far more likely risk.

In reply to victorclimber:

Care to enlighten anyone with some info about how bold and ethically pure you are?

It's a lot easier to sit in an armchair and criticise someone's style of ascent. It is much more difficult to get out there and do it yourself!

In reply to Kaya: Climbing has no purpose we all do it for fun. Sometimes its fun to have a bit of danger sometimes the risk is too high for it to be fun, in this situation using a matt may lower the risk enough to make the route fun. I think ethics are very important in looking after our environment and the rock we climb on but i don't see how using a pad damages this in the long term it just allows people to have more fun on more routes so isn't an ethics thing.

In reply to remus: yes point taken Remus,I suppose at the end of the day everyones different in attitudes..

In reply to davo: Oh Now I never said I was ethically pure Davo ,but I would so like to be ,no bolts ,no chalk ,no mats no resting on gear and then saying I did the route ok ,but I am flawed I,m afraid..but Ican still have an opinion I hope..

In reply to Kaya: I think it is just self preservation, if you want to survive a possible long fall with as few injuries as possible, pad it out. Then pad it out some more!

Ask Mr Buys, he seems very good at testing these landings and walking away, not so much death from the top floor anymore!

In reply to victorclimber: Surely the best style is to climb as hard as you can in the style that you enjoy the most and be frank and honest about what that style was?

Dave Mac spends years on big serious mega-projects, Jordan Buys onsights hard grit with pads, Ueli Steck does alpine big walls solo at a jog, Adam Ondra pushes what's humanly possible on bolts - they're all different but they're all pushing the envelope (and certainly pushing their own envelopes) in impressive and exciting ways and none of them claims to be doing anything that they aren't...

In reply to Kaya: i solo using pads quite often to reduce the risk of injury (im not a complete retard, although yes i do solo stuff). i also solo stuff at my limit although they are usually quite short because i can really

In reply to Sam Marks: Hi Sam I agree with your comments on here, I completly understand that people want to reduce risk and injury as well as climbing being a personal journey. Although there are many contardictions in this argument with the use of cams and chalk on routes done before they were invented or before this equiptment became mainstream.
Although I do feel that using a mat on routes that have a possible ground fall do reduce the mental interaction with the experiance and this is summoned up in the rock fax eastern grit guide " Easier with padding but graded for an ascent without."
Although my main reason for putting this thread up was in the hope that sponsered climbers that are currently ticking of the test pieces of the country would comment with their personal views on using Mats as a form of protection.

In reply to Kaya:

Surely this is more a case of Gritstone test pieces rather than anything else ? Trying to lug a mat in and out of Huntsmans leap would be more of a liability than a help I'd have thought !

In reply to Kaya:

I'm not a sponsored climber but I do know a few. I'm not aware of any sponsors who put pressure on climbers in any way as direct as you suggest. Sponsorship in climbing remains very low-key and climbers just don't get directed like that.

Of course there is an indirect pressure that climbers may feel they need to keep themselves in the news in order to justify their sponsorship, but nothing more than that. Climbers' ethics are up to them.

Photo incentive deals mean climbers may get paid more if a brand is clearly visible in a published photo, but I think the current approach is to keep things low-key and genuine - ie wearing 5.10 boots is sufficient, you don't need a logoed t-shirt, hat and pad too.

If you're thinking of mats as a kind of advertising hoarding then, as a photographer, I'd say its generally pretty hard to get the 'right' logos in shot. Usually there are a good few from the climber and their mates, from a mix of makes. If they have bright colours and brash logos I usually try to keep them out of the frame to be honest. I suspect they are designed to stand out in a shop rather than look good in a photo. If I could choose all pads would be plain dull grey.

In reply to GrahamD:

It'd be quite handy on some of the starts, maybe the CC should stash a few down there for general use ;-P

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I solo short routes, but I've never done any soloing to save time or to make a route more serious. Soloing (for me) isn't about showing off or being dangerous, it's about wanting to enjoy the moves on that particular piece of rock. If I've got a mat with me, I'll stick it underneath as it may or may not stop me hurting myself.

In reply to jkarran: One of the points i'm trying to highlight is that with modern day climbing walls, modern opinions and such like, I think people are missing a major part in climbing. There's a huge focus on physical ability now adays, and not other parts, such as boldness and everything else. This is hugely rewarding. When you get to the top of a route when you almost shit your self, it often feels so much better and stays with you much more than one which you found physically difficult. The only way I can see this being realised is if people are to aspire to more traditional ethics.

In reply to Sam Marks:

I see your point, and it would be relevant if we were talking about sport vs trad climbing. But in this context what it means is shitting yourself 20 foot above some pads rather than 10ft above some grass.