UKC

I know it might seem an odd question, but I am trying to change the picks on my new petzl quarks and I can't undo the nuts. I even broke an allen key on them. Has anyone had a similar problem, is there a simple solution to this or do I just need to get stronger?

In reply to nigel pearson: have you tried a heavy application of WD40 and leaving over night?

In reply to nigel pearson: I had the same problem. The answer was to get some allen key attachments for a socket set to get more leverage. You can get a set of ebay for about £5.00. Hope this help. Lee

In reply to leewright: thanks for the ideas

In reply to nigel pearson:

Nigel, I had the same problem. I found the simplest thing was just to:

1.) Put the allen key into the bolt
2.) Place the hole in the head of your other tool over the allen key handle
3.) Use your other tool as a long lever on the allen key.

This works for me every time.

Cheers

In reply to Ross Mathers:

This bent the spike on the bottom of my tool! Not happy considering I had only used the tools once. I called Petzl/Lyon who said to send it in to them and they would fix or replace it (probably just put it in a vice and bend it..)

They said to undo it, you need to use an impact driver or hammer it or something... Unfortunately
I can't remember exactly what he said, but hopefully someone else will be able to explain better.

Good luck!

Yes, I wouldn't use the spike as it's not strong enough. I use the hole in the head on my Nomic. Absolutely so problem.

In reply to owen1988:

impact screwdriver would do the trick.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-22322-12-Piece-Screwdriver/dp/B0001K9...

you have to hit the end with a hammer, the beauty is that it transfers all the force to the very bottom of the bolt so far less chance of damaging it.

but i would still try and soak in wd40 overnight first!

In reply to d508934:
for sure, impact driver. Far more turning force than a hand could apply and you won't knacker up the bolts socket indent and the hammer blow forces it in deeper rather than twisting it out. Tenner from a car shop or similar and another fiver for the allen bit.

In reply to nigel pearson: Mount your allan key in a vice and turn the axe against it.

RN

In reply to nigel pearson:
I use a T-handle hex key:
http://www.uniortools.com/product/ball-end-hexagonal-screwdriver-with-t-han...
and with a longer lever arm it works every time. I'm also not exceptionally strong.

In reply to nigel pearson:

Another tried and tested way of removing any stuck nuts, bolts, screws and so on is to (gently) heat the area up with a blow torch. Doesn't have to be red hot!! - just a few seconds under the flame. Then try when warm and/or when cold again!!

In reply to Dave Perry:

It is possible that an anaerobic adhesive has been used in which case heating to 200 deg C would weaken the adhesive. However, there are too many things that can go wrong with that method so unless you have blacksmithing or similar engineering experience I recommend not doing it. The alloy steel used in picks is unlikely to be affect by heating until much higher temperatures but other materials such as aluminium shafts may be affected by very moderate heating. There might also be adhesives used in other locations on the tool and these might be affected by heating.

Many Allen keys on the market are cheap rubbish and prone to premature failure so the simple act of going to good tool store and buying a premium brand tool should help. Most of the nuts and bolts in the world are not correctly tightened so most people are surprised when they come across something that is properly designed and manufactured.

WD40 is a second rate old gun oil. The best dismantling spray is Plus Gas (blue can).

In reply to nigel pearson:

my cousin had the same problem with Nomics and the only way we could fix it was to get a really good allan key which wont snap but make sure its a really good one with really good steel the put the allen key in a vice and use the tool as a lever

make sure not to get a hex bit as the steel they are made with tends to snap instead of bend and if it snaps and gets stuck, it can be a pain to get out (thats what happened to us)

In reply to nigel pearson: I used a mallet on my nomics and nailed the bejesus out of them
To get the nut loose

In reply to Jim Fraser:
Fair point Jim. I didn't know about the adhesive either.

In reply to nigel pearson: should we not have to resort to this in the first place? trying to take the adze off my quark took me the best part of an hour with the rubbish allen key supplied with the tool.

In reply to nigel pearson:
You need greater 'moment' on the key.
Get a good quality key and a long ring-spanner or metal tube.
Lock the ring over the key , or slide the tube over it, and lever from the end.
When re-assembling, put some white grease or threadlock on the threads to keep corrosion out.
If the allen head is all furrled out then you'll need to cut a slot across it to allow tightening/loosening with a bladed screwdriver. Alteratibe to whack a similar sized torq into the hole to get a bite.

Watch your knuckles!

In reply to nigel pearson:
Same problem here with Nomics and new Quarks but sorted easily with a bit of leverage applied with and old alloy tent tube/avalanche probe. Any narrow tube/pipe that fits tightly over the alan key will do. Slip over the end to apply the extra leverage.
I also WD40'd the axes before much use. They seemed to corrode quickly compared to my old Quark axes and could see a problem in removing the bolts later.

Cheers Ron

In reply to nigel pearson:

You need to warm them up gently. If you pull hard when they are frozen the skin will come off.

In reply to nigel pearson:

One of the uses for anaerobic adhesives is to combat corrosion in a joint. This can be a nut and bolt or a larger joint on a shaft. This method is particularly helpful when dissimilar metals are involved.

If you use a lubricant then it will tend to get washed out of the joint and probably replaced by moisture and corrosive fluids. Using a these adhesives means that you have complete control over the joint throughout its life. You can choose a high strength adhesive or a low strength adhesive depending upon the needs of the application. A product like Loctite 222 has moderate strength and will seal a joint against corrosion. Other low strength products like Loctite 5203, which is sold as a flange sealant, seal the joint without adding significant strength and are therefore very useful for ensuring control of dismantling forces in the long term. (Works in power stations as well. http://www.wavegen.co.uk/news_press%20release%208%20july%202011%20mutriku%2... )

Make sure you are turning the right way! Follow Lee's advice and get an Allen key with half or three-eighths inch drive. Consider using a weaker thread locking compound when you replace them and re-tighten with the little Allen key if you want to be able to change in the field.
Probably a daft question but why do you want to change them if they're new?

In reply to nigel pearson: torque the allen key in the hole on the other axes head while this axe is on the floor.
it worked for me

In reply to Jim Fraser:

I'd agree WD40 is a waste of time; it's not its intended use at all. In the absence of Plus Gas, if you've got some lying around use brake fluid, it works quite effectively as a penetrating oil which is what's required, give it a few hours to penetrate. And use good quality Allen keys, preferably 3/8" drive.

Re blowtorch comment.

I'd suggest against heating metals unless you know the possible annealing is of no consequence.

In reply to needvert:


Yes. For Carbon steels the effects start at 180 deg C but for some allow steels the equivalent might be 600 deg C. Those of us who have spent a lifetime on this stuff can tell quite a lot about a material with simple methods including the Mk1 eyeball but with heat treatment, unless you have the spec, usually there's no telling.

In reply to jim jones:
WD40 stops them rusting.

Unless brake fluid has changed in the past 20 years I wouldn't want it anywhere near any of my climbing kit or the plastic handles of my axes.
It used to make make a great paint stripper though!!!!!

To get mine off i just poured boiling water over them for 30 seconds or so, did the trick first time......

In reply to nigel pearson: your priority is not to knacker the bolt, so whatever you do be gentle. I'd recommend a new (or freshly sharpened) T handle allen key. Try tightening it a little before untightening

In reply to nigel pearson: I had the same problem, they seem very unnecessarily over tightened. I used a ring spanner on the end of my allen key for leverage.

In reply to Eddie1234:

The correct tightness for a bolt is as tight as possible without breaking it.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Perfectly acceptable on metal, the problem isn't with the handle, it's unlikely anyone would be stupid enough to immerse an axe in a bath of it but I suppose I should have warned against splashing leashes (or paintwork).

In reply to jim jones:
Thanks for all the replies. Lots of ideas to go at.