UKC

Some members of the large Warwick Uni club trip to Siurana left a few items behind at the campsite - quickdraws, a grigri, a hoody, etc. A discussion was held, and it was decided that as you had behaved like such complete wankers for the duration of your stay, both at the crags and the campsite, any items of value were auctionned off. The proceeds will go towards replacing lower-offs which have become worn out due to excessive toproping. I'm sure you'll understand how this is appropriate.

Perhaps next year could you advertise your presence so that people can make alternative plans, a bit like when advertising large club frehsers trips to Stanage during October? Or alternatively behave with a little more respect for other climbers and residents so as not to reinforce the stereotype of large uni club trips - noisy stupid brits swarming over small crags with top ropes and litter, or running and yelling pissedly around the campsite until sunrise keeping everyone awake.

In reply to Siurana Climber: Lol!!

In reply to Siurana Climber:

I'm not a member of Warwick University or their club but I find that the generalisations made about univeristy clubs are unfair.

1. What does "excessive top roping" mean? Either top roping is acceptable or not, you can't put a quota on it. It is what people do to help beginners find their feet or to attempt something harder than your used to. By the logic above every climb should have a quota of how many times it can be climbed to avoid polish.

2. Why should university clubs advertise their presence? I doubt that you post on UKC every time you are about to go down to a crag. The beauty of climbing is that it is free and available to everyone. Everytime anybody from any university club posts a "warning"- climbers will be at a crag- shock horror, they get a tirade of abuse. Don't come this weekend, the weather is supposed to be good, the routes are too popular etc... Why else would you go to a crag?

3. Yelling pissedly until the wee hours- obviously there is a limit and I have no idea the extent to which Warwick uni people did this, but as long as they were not breaking any rules of the campsite then I suggest you find a campsite with a stricter set of conditions. I'm sorry that the idea of young people getting a bit drunk and having a laugh is so abhorrent to you.

I think that is about it. Happy climbing

In reply to Siurana Climber:
what are your lower-offs made from? Chocolate?

In reply to THardSevere:

Where's the generalisation? He's talking specifically about one group.

That group lost the goodwill of other (local?) climbers and those climbers decided not to go out of their way to return the group's left gear. Auctioning for the bolt-fund's a lot better than it just disappearing into someone's sack.

As for the lower offs, the clue's in the name. If you're going to top rope a group, do it off your own gear.

In reply to THardSevere:

You can try to defend them by arguing specific points (each of which on their own might have been accepted) but it does sound like they behaved pretty inconsiderately in an overall sense, I know we did as students quite often; large groups of young people often do. You would, however, hope that someone in 'charge' would have controlled things somewhat.

In reply to Siurana Climber:
I think the OP is suggesting the lower offs are worn out over time, not just the Warwick uni crews antics.

In reply to Siurana Climber:

Hi Siurana Climber. I didn't go on this trip and I graduated a while ago - however, I ran the club 4 years ago and have stayed in contact since.

I can't speak for this trip specifically, but generally speaking the Warwick Uni club is safe, well organized, and sociable club.

I'm confused about the point of your message. Or perhaps the way you've gone about it. If it is indeed to explain your justification for selling their gear; it would be appropriate to email the club directly first? Did your 'held discussion' include anyone from the club? Their contact details are on the classifieds listing. By going about it in this manner I'm sure those running the trip could be convinced it was appropriate to sell left behind gear to aid a bolt fund.

If it's to publicly voice your distain for Warwick’s visit to and behaviour during their time there then you’ve done that. More constructively, if you do want your suggestions in terms of noise, litter, overcrowding of crags etc. to be heard and taken on board by the club I would again strongly recommend you email them. Also, if you do feel like this during a club’s trip you should voice your concerns there and then. Perhaps you did this?

I’m not having a go. And I fully appreciate that excessive noise, any litter, overcrowding at crags, rowdiness late at night etc. can make for an unfair an unpleasant experience. However I do think messages like these only go further in, as you say, ‘reinforcing stereotypes’, and that you will be taken much more seriously making a complaint directly to those organizing the involved, rather than sticking it on public forum for a mixed peer review, and inevitably having it dismissed when the club eventually come to pick it up as someone with a chip on their shoulder.

I’ve passed the message on to the club. Hopefully they get in touch.
Jon

In reply to THardSevere:

I guess in my book its just called being considerate to other people.

cheers
mark

In reply to Siurana Climber:

Hi Siurana Climber,

I’ve just been reading through your post, and as president of the club, I can only apologise for any inconvenience we may have caused you and other climbers in the area. If you had approached me or any of the exec during your stay with your complaints, we would have done everything possible to help.

We should have posted some kind of warning on forums, and we will be recommending next years’ exec do this.

In terms of respecting other climbers and swarming over small crags, I can only apologise again. However, the exec are (as far as I have always seen) incredibly meticulous about such things.

Every fresher, before coming on Tour, had to attend a trip to Wales or the Peak District, where exec were on hand to teach and guide on climbing ethics. In addition, before our Tour we had a compulsory presentation which went through, amongst other things, how unacceptable litter at the crag is.

Members are also told to speak to climbers from other groups- asking if they want to climb anything they are on, especially if top roping.

Every fresher had to attend a minimum of three sessions where they were taught how to lead and lower off safely under the supervision of the exec and climbing wall staff. As well as during these sessions, exec would have shown members correct protocol for seconding and top roping on a compulsory weekend trip before Siurana.

Siurana has about 60 different sectors, and many members visited different climbing areas too, such as Margalef. None of us climb particularly hard, so most groups stuck to the easy sectors. As far as I saw, there was no swarming. Nor did I hear of any instances where anyone complained someone was on a climb for too long. We are not unreasonable people. Please, just say if you particularly want to climb something a member of our group is on. However, this problem has been highlighted with the exec and we will strive to ensure there is no over-crowding at crags in the future.

Obviously, I cannot speak for all 60 members who were in Siurana. But at every crag I went to the last people there would go around picking up left items and litter, often including litter that wasn’t from our group.



Any instances I heard of where someone had asked a bungalow to be quieter, the group immediately stopped, disbanded and quietened down. The owners of the campsite didn’t mention any complaints about noise, and were in fact very complimentary about the behaviour of our group. However I understand that students do get drunk, and will be inconsiderately loud at times, so thank you for your patience and I apologise if anyone was disturbed or lost sleep.

Admittedly a campsite is an inappropriate environment for a large University group, and we know that now. We had never been to Siurana as a club before- the campsite and the environment was all new to us, and I apologise for our naivety.

On a brighter note, the campsite got a lot of custom from us which will undoubtedly go towards improving the facilities for future customers.



Again, if we had been approached at the time with your complaints, we would have done everything to ensure your stay wasn’t spoiled further. All we can do now is recommend improvements for next year.

If you can think of anything else the exec could do to improve the behaviour of our members at the crag and campsite, I would be grateful to hear your comments so we can improve for next year.

Thank you,

Jasmine Taplin
j.taplin@warwick.ac.uk

In reply to JasTaplin:

Sorry, but what is 'exec' in a real language?

In reply to smudger: "Committee".

In reply to JasTaplin:

congratulations on a brilliant reply, 1sts all round!

In reply to JasTaplin: Its a good response, but I can't help thinking that taking 60 students anywhere is going to cause friction regardless of training courses, mandatory sessions and talks.

I speak as a former student mountaineering club member who knows how it actually works.

In reply to EeeByGum:

Especially a compact and isolated venue.


Chris

In reply to Siurana ClimberFrom the Oxford English Dictionary

Excessive top roping: Ex cess ive, top, roping. Verb; To set up a climbing rope at the top of a crag and to climb with it one time or more.
See also: Drytooling and bouldering.:

In reply to cap'nChino:
And that is the limit to your useful addition to this thread! Get a life.

Re. The OP; I can see where you are coming from and agree with a point made above that it's good that the proceeds of the sale will go to the bolt fund, but, these items were probably personal gear so one person (who may or may not have been responsible for the agro) is taking the hit for others.

Personally I think the uni club should reconsider taking such big groups away to a single destination and think about making a donation to the bolt fund from the committee coffers.

In reply to EeeByGum:


SIXTY students at once??? Blimey!

In reply to EeeByGum: Likewise, I had to re-read several times to be sure I hadn't misread something. I can remember problems caused by a single coach load on day trips from uni, but that's 'only' 40. A group of 60 sounds ridiculous, especially as it seems as many/most were near beginners.

Also makes me wonder about all the stories of hard up impoverished students - I was at university when there were full grants for many and no fees but club trips outside the UK were very rare

In reply to EeeByGum:

Our annual tour tends to normally have 50+ attendees and in the past four years that I've been a part of the club there have never been any problems with other climbers as far as I'm aware. Personally, I think OP exaggerated our impact quite significantly, I was often the last to leave the crag and despite always checking to see if there was any litter to be collected, it was rare for me to find anything to take home. As for our behaviour at the crag, I had the pleasure of chatting at length with three or four different groups of climbers at both Siurana and Margalef and none of them expressed any problems climbing alongside such a relatively large group.

@Doug: You realise that we weren't all climbing together, right? There are around 60 sectors at Siurana alone before even considering the other nearby crags such as Margalef etc. As for overseas holidays all I can suggest is that budget airlines make it very easy to travel abroad relatively cheaply these days.

P.S. I'm not a member of the club's committee and as such this post just reflects my own opinion of events, rather than that of the club itself.

In reply to JasTaplin:


Brighter note ? what about the people that had their experience of the place affected by your mass holliday. The repeat trade that the campsite will now no longer recieve because peoples experience wasn't positive could have cost them money in the long run.

You are all supposed to be educated responsible adults, and as such should not need to be told how to behave. To adopt an attitude that its up to people to complain is franky out of order rather than it be your perogative to act as a good example rather than a terrible lesson....
>

In reply to Doug:


You must have been very hard up. Back in good old 1995 I too had a full grant, but you could get 2 weeks in the Dolomites by minibus and camping for £150 all in! £100 in pocket money saw the fortnight through.

In reply to THardSevere:

Top roping though the lower offs causes wear to them.
I was under the impression that if you are planning to top rope a route then you should have the rope running through your own quickdraws / screwgates.

Si

In reply to Mi|es: I appreciate that you personally were conscientious in picking up litter and the like, but I think the point most seem to be making here is that the impact of 60 people, and especially 60 young, excited and up-for-it students on any outdoor place is going to be rather negative. Ok, so you left no litter, but are 60 mates really going to be quiet and considerate towards other people using that area? No. And I don't say that aimed at you. I have been in your position and our groups were generally no bigger than 20 in number. My experience was that it only takes one person in that group to make a misplaced comment or shout a bit too loud to bring the whole group down. We had our one's and two's who got a bit too boisterous in our very small club. I find it hard to believe there weren't a few egos in your 60 strong party.

In reply to EeeByGum:
Certainly, we realise that we can't please everyone. However, we did our best. I would say that there was no more than 20 people at any one sector most of the time and mostly we were reasonably quiet. Yes, there will always be someone... but the club committee (of which I am not a member) did its best to make sure people realised what effect they could have. If then they make lots of noise etc., then that is the fault of the individual and not to be blamed on the rest of the club.

In reply to muppetfilter:

"Brighter note ? what about the people that had their experience of the place affected by your mass holliday. The repeat trade that the campsite will now no longer recieve because peoples experience wasn't positive could have cost them money in the long run."

This is a weak argument, suggesting that everyone on the site apart from the university group had a negative experience. The only person who has complained about the behaviour of the group from first-hand experience is the OP, who, in my opinion, exaggerated the groups behaviour and distorted it completely out of proportion. Assuming the OP and his group don't return to the site, will that balance out 600 nights worth of accommodation purchased by the university group at the campsite? I highly doubt it. Not to mention the accommodation types purchased by the group were considerably more expensive than the price of a tent pitch/campervan space.

I spoke to several climbers during the duration of our stay, both in the cafe at the campsite and a various crags around Siurana and Margalef, and not once did I get the impression they were not happy with our presence. However, at the crags, I never climbed in a group of more than 7 or 8, perhaps larger groups caused friction? Unfortunately I can only quote my own experience.

"You are all supposed to be educated responsible adults, and as such should not need to be told how to behave. To adopt an attitude that its up to people to complain is franky out of order rather than it be your perogative to act as a good example rather than a terrible lesson...."

Personally I would find it difficult to comment on behaviour I hadn't witnessed first-hand. Every criticism on this thread seems to be based on comments made by 1 member of UKC, the OP, who in my honest opinion seems to have some sort of agenda against our group/ university groups in general.

@ Chris - "Especially a compact and isolated venue"

Siurana has 55 sectors and 1200 bolted routes, not to mention a myriad of trad lines spread all over the valley. Margalef (where many members spent 1-2 days) has another 800 routes. Personally I wouldn't describe the area as compact and isolated.

@Doug - "I can remember problems caused by a single coach load on day trips from uni, but that's 'only' 40. A group of 60 sounds ridiculous, especially as it seems as many/most were near beginners"

There was no coach in Spain, 10 separate cars were hired, so naturally the group was split in a number of smaller groups. The full group of was together in England and the airport in Barcelona only. Many members joined late/left early/ arrived from other locations in Europe. At the campsite the group was split up over all the different accommodations on the site, with about half being at one end of the site, and the other half at the other.

With regard to the 'many/most were near beginners' comment, I fail to see how you can possibly infer this information? Or is it just a presumption? I also fail to see why having beginners on a trip would be a problem? When/where did you learn to rock climb? I doubt it was a smooth transition from an indoor wall to outdoor climbing.



I am not a member of the club's committee, just a member.

In reply to papashango:


I assume it was to do with the comment made by the member of your exec committee above, who said:

"None of us climb particularly hard, so most groups stuck to the easy sectors."

Agreed - doesn't necessarily equate to you all being beginners but you have to admit given your age group as well as that comment, it's not an unfair assumption to make in broad terms.

As I frequent Bear Rock, I'm watching this with interest....

In reply to JonC:

Fair comment.

However, I stand by the next sentence in my previous post, I don't see a problem with having beginners on an outdoor trip. It's the best way to learn. Everyone was competent safety wise.

In reply to papashango: I imagine your post will end this matter, nobody really thought any of your group were noisy and antisocial and the op is lying.

In reply to Nicole:

I agree - but unfortunately it doesn't work like that though does it?

In reply to papashango:
>

I was referring to the village which is 'compact and isolated' - there aren't many places to go or much to do. It isn't like being based in Calpe or Benidorm is it?


Chris

In reply to papashango:

But not 60 at once

In reply to papashango:

Perhaps Papshango is one of the new generation of "little Buddhas" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17609455) who doesn't like being told their behaviour was out of order.

I'm joking. Obviously.

In reply to Siurana Climber:

Consideration of the effect of large groups should be much higher on the list of priorities when planning a trip, I suspect it's often an afterthought.

This applies to other activities many UKCers take part in; i.e. when out cycling recently I've encountered groups, most probably club runs, with over 30 riders which is far too many.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hi Chris.

"It isn't like being based in Calpe or Benidorm is it?"

No Chris, it isn't. While Calpe and Benidorm are locations known for heavy drinking etc. Siurana is a climbing destination. Everyone in the club is a keen climber.

"there aren't many places to go or much to do" - I agree completely with regard to Calpe and Benidorm.

I don't know if you've been to Siurana, but there is certainly plenty to do for a University >>!climbing!<< club. 1200 routes offering some of the best climbing in the world, enough to keep most climbers busy for years.

Bear in mind this was a climbing trip, hence why we chose Siurana as opposed to somewhere like Benidorm.

I think you have a distorted view of university life/students in general. Or at least our climbing club.

@Ave Adore - Could you clarify what you mean by 'not 60 at once?'

@seankenny - "Perhaps Papshango is one of the new generation of "little Buddhas" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17609455) who doesn't like being told their behaviour was out of order.

I'm joking. Obviously. "

The link isn't working unfortunately.

Again, like I said in a previous post, 'Personally I would find it difficult to comment on behaviour I hadn't witnessed first-hand.' Unless you were at the campsite at the same time as the university group then it doesn't really matter if you're joking or not, your views are simply opinions, based on nothing but the OP's view.

@Hat Dude - "Consideration of the effect of large groups should be much higher on the list of priorities when planning a trip, I suspect it's often an afterthought. This applies to other activities many UKCers take part in; i.e. when out cycling recently I've encountered groups, most probably club runs, with over 30 riders which is far too many."

When I go out on club rides, our group of between 10-25 split into smaller groups of 3-6. Much like our group did in Siurana, the group spread itself into smaller groups spread around different crags.

In reply to papashango:

>Unless you were at the campsite at the same time as the university group then it doesn't really matter if you're joking or not, your views are simply opinions, based on nothing but the OP's view and your knowledge of having seen or participated in university group trips before.

Corrected that for you old chap.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17609455

In reply to seankenny:

Hi Sean,

Of course you're free to claim participating on uni trips etc etc, but like I said before, unless you were actually in Siurana, you are simply jumping on the 'anti-uni' bandwagon like a lot of others in this thread. Implying our group behaved in the same way as your uni group trips is unfounded and ridiculous.

Interesting article, unforunately I can't relate it to my own upbringing...

In reply to papashango:
"> Hi Chris.

you might want to google him before replying again, mate.
you might want to start here... http://www.rockfax.com/climbing-guides/old-books/costa-blanca-2005/

In reply to papashango:

The Costa Blanca (Calpe and Benidorm) is also climbing venue. Transport might be a problem but there's enough good climbing in the area.

Siurana is simply a bad choice for such a large group, especially one with beginners. To be honest I can't see the point in organising such a big trip at all.

In reply to pebbles:
I didn't google members user names to find out who they were, simply replying to comments on this thread is time consuming enough to be honest.

@Papillon - "Siurana is simply a bad choice for such a large group, especially one with beginners. To be honest I can't see the point in organising such a big trip at all."

To be honest, everyone enjoyed the trip. It was a success. Climbing just round the corner from world famous climbs such as La Rambla was pretty inspiring to be honest. A big trip allows everyone to meet new people and build on existing friendships. It was really fun. In my opinion there's few better places to go, it was a fantastic arena to climb in and watch others working routes like Broadway and La Rambla.

In reply to papashango:

Mmmm. Read the thread. Done the Uni club thing as a student climber; had some great encounters subsequently with groups of students on the crag in UK and beyond; and currently ply my trade at a Uni.
I reckon you're right out of order, as is your Uni club, on this one. You ought to learn from it and be big enough to do so as a club. You'd get a lot more respect from people on here if you did.

In reply to papashango:

Isn't the point that apparently not *everyone* enjoyed the trip?

Personally I don't think climbing is really suitable for very large trips of this sort, I can't think of any campsite which would be improved by sixty students descending upon it. Ten yes, sixty no. Somehow it seems kind of against the spirit of the sport, tho maybe I'm just a bit of a saddo...

In reply to Greenbanks:

At the same time. We've only had ONE person's opinion on how they were behaved. I'm not defending anyone, but it's worth keeping in mind they could have been perfectly behaved and one person took offense. It seems like people are basing quite a witch hunt based on the OP's opinion alone....who by all means could be a complete nutter.

I find it strange that anyone wouldn't have made a compliant. If it was me and people were screaming round the campsite, i'd be out there straight away to tell people to shut up. As would most people. The fact the campsite owners complimented them on how well behaved they were suggests that perhaps the OP isn't being just teeny bit biased.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I have nothing to do with the running of the club, so although you say I'm out of order, please seperate this with the stance of the club. I'm just voicing my opinions. Just to point out that before anyone affiliated with the club posted on this thread, there was not a whole lot of respect from people directed towards it.

@Sean, yes, of course not everyone had a good trip going by the comment that started this thread. Certainly wouldn't call you a saddo. It looks like there will never be agreement on this subject...

Peace.

In reply to papashango:

The exsitance of this thread would suggest otherwise.

In reply to seankenny:


No spot on. Lots of smaller groups tend to go with the general vibe at these places.

In reply to Siurana Climber: I'm nothing to do with the uni or the club, but I feel most people on here are making negative prejudgements based solely on the unfounded complaints of one person. Students in general are nice people, if you ask them to quiet down, I think they would. It seems the OP has some other agenda. For a trip of 60 people, of any age or social group, it seems to me that they were very well behaved and a credit to English universities and youth; especially compared to the likes of Brit group holidays to Ibiza and Benidorm etc.

Well done, I hope you all enjoyed your holiday and continue to enjoy many more.

In reply to Papillon:

Spot on. Biggest trip we ever went on was just over 20 and we split into groups.
What on earth does anyone get out of being part of a group of 60 to somewhere like Siurana?
When I was at Uni, if anyone had said "right 60 of us are going to Siurana," I'd have been on the first plane to Sella.

E

In reply to Siurana Climber:

Interesting thread. I got back from Siurana a few days ago, and unfortunately our trip overlapped with Warwick's by a few days.

I'm afraid the OP's complaints are fairly valid, although I didn't see any auction of lost gear..! I'd suggest all uni groups reconsider organising such large trips - there is just too much impact on other climbers.

After the first two days we learned to ask them which crag they were heading to each morning, and make sure we headed elsewhere. it's true there are plenty of different areas to choose from, and it was easy to avoid them. On the two days we shared crags, one was ok (with about 6 students who were quiet enough), the other was less good, with about 20-25 students, topropes on most of the routes 6b and below (several, if not all, running through the lower offs), much shouting from one end of the crag to the other. After this day we just avoided them with great success and had peaceful climbing on crags largely to ourselves.

The noise at night on the campsite was a problem and stopped us sleeping. I did ask them to shut up once, and was completely ignored; I didn't bother again. I know at least three other groups of climbers were annoyed by this (some folk from London, two Germans, and two guys from Czech). I am certain that most other people staying there would have been kept up by the racket.

To add some balance, there was a bunch of climbers from Southampton uni who seemed to behave pretty well without any problems.

Cheers

In reply to poeticshambles:

Not any more...


And I was just about to ask you what you based this on? Or were you just trying to add some balance (based on unfounded evidence/optimism)?

In reply to JonC:


- thanks. Was thinking the exact same thing, but you worded it better than I would've done!

In reply to papashango:

"Hi Chris.

I don't know if you've been to Siurana, "

Probably THE best comment ever.

In reply to alasdair.blackshaw:
I don't know if you've been to Siurana, "

Classic!

E

In reply to Enty: A case of "Been there, seen It , Written the Guidebook"