UKC

I couldn't find a thread on this (maybe I'm using the wrong search terms).

I've been looking at quickdraws in the R+R shop and some of them have both krabs facing the same way (Wild Country, Black Diamond) and some have the krabs facing in opposite ways (Troll, R+R) and some use both for different quickdraw sets (DMM).

I've always had the krabs facing in oposite directions. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to each method or is it just what you are used to?

CCW

In reply to Charlie Williams:

I'm used to them facing opposite directions.

Whatever suits you I suppose.

In reply to Charlie Williams:

Basically it's what you are used to. I prefer having both the gates face the same way. If one krab is captive (usually the lower or rope krab) then I can always swivel the other one.

Bob

In reply to Charlie Williams:

I have mine either way. I clip them to the pro so that the rope gate is facing the correct way and if required I invert the pro end biner so that gate is pointing away from anything that could open it.

HTH

In reply to Bob:
You have the rope krab as captive? The only time I've had to swivel krabs is when I've put the extender on the wrong way round (ie. gate facing right and I'm about to move right), and I don't want to unclip everything and start again so I swivel the lower krab so the gate's now facing the other way. I don't see how being able to swivel the top krab helps, unless there's another situation I haven't thought of (always possible).

CCW

In reply to Punter Hitch:

Agree with that. Would expand on the "rope gate facing the correct way" part: Basically the gate of the krab clipped into the rope should point away from the line of the route so that the chance of the rope unclipping itself is reduced to almost zero. So if the gear is to the right of you, have the lower krab facing right. However if you are going to move diagonally above the gear then it may be better to have the gate facing you.

Bob

In reply to Charlie Williams:

Yes, it means that the rope is slightly easier to clip in as the krab doesn't kick away from you. If the top krab is free to swivel then if you are clipping something in a corner and the edge catches against the krab gate you can swivel it around. I do have some extenders that have no captive krab so I can adapt to any situation.

Bob

In reply to Charlie Williams: Having the rope krab captive also stops the rope krab from swivelling when you don't want it to, ie after you've carefully placed it so the gate is on the correct side...you climb up -> rope jiggles about -> krab flips round (following the principle of the cussedness of inanimate objects)...you fall off, gate is now on wrong side, rope self-unclips and you fall further than you should have done.

I rack my QDs with both krab gates facing the same way. When I clip gear I orient the QD according to which way I want to rope krab to face, then if the gear krab turns out to have its gate against an edge or something I flip it round.

In reply to Charlie Williams:

I have the gates facing in opposite directions. Then when I am clipping gear, I always point the gate of upper carabiner in the lateral direction I am going. (Having the gate open in the direction one is going can occasionally make a distant clip slightly easier.) When the upper biner is clipped in that orientation, the lower one has its gate on the opposite side to which I am going. To clarify: if I am going up and slightly left, I hold the quickdraw with the upper gate facing towards the left and clip the gear that way. Then the gate on the rope biner is facing to the right, and the rope is coming up through that biner from below right and behind and leaving it on the upper left front - away from the gate, as it should be from the falling point of view.

The advantage of this configuration is very minor, little more than a convention. Much like the direction that one clips the draws into one's waist-loops. I have the upper gates facing out, but I have noticed that about half of climbers use the opposite convention to that one. Which just shows what I minor issue these orientation conventions must be - otherwise we would have all adopted the clear favorites.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Flippin heck John!!!

In reply to Bob:

you ought to tell that to the Leeds Wall, quite a few of their in situ quickdraws face the wrong way.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: Dont most walls alternate the way insitu quickdraws face... i was led to believe there was some saftey reason behind this.

In reply to Charlie Williams: I have my wall qd's facing opposite directionsfor speedy clipping, prefer to to clip in from the right.

When I am on the good old trad stuff I tend to keep them facing the same direction... the reason being... when you clip your trad gear you always clip into the gear so the gate in not sitting on and rock or lying against anything that could open it.... so if the trad end of the qd is right then the rope end will also be ok .... that is if you always clip the gear end properly.

In reply to es: The reasons walls do this is the center of the qd runs right through in a diagonal line l-r or r-l depends on the way they are facing... most walls will have a mallion on the bolt. with both gates facing the same way all the weight is on one side of the q/d.

with repeated falls this could ... i suppose weaken the q/d.

In reply to Charlie Williams:
A year or two ago, Black Diamond changed the orientation of the biners on their quickdraws from opposite to same side. The rational was something along the lines of as the quickdraw clipped into a bolt is pulled in the direction of the climber as they climb past and above the bolt, the top biner rotates in the hanger in such a away as the hanger is closer to the spine (stronger when loaded) if the two quickdraw biners face the same direction rather than away from the spine (weaker) as is the case if the two gates face in opposite directions. Sorry, one of those cases where a picture is worth a thousand words.

In reply to Charlie Williams: I carry a mixed bag, if fully racked, I have 5 which are coloured, so it's easy to see these clip differently.
If I haven't got the 'same way' on the rack, I just rotate the rope end krab, so it has the back of the biner pointing where I am going next.
Chris Harmston, from BDiamond, used to say that he racked a variety of QD's, same way, opposites, long, and short, so he could always find just what he needed.

Hope this helps?

Tim, TG

In reply to Andrew:
Personally I prefer to keep the gates in opposition. The weakest part of a quickdraw and most easily worn out is the tape which ideally needs to spread any force evenly across all the length-wise fibres. If the gates face the same way then there is more chance that the tape will be initially loaded more on one side, the backbar side, than the other and could lead to starting or worsening a tear. With the gates opposed, such tearing would be less likly as the fibres would loaded more evenly, slightly deforming in a parrallogram fashion (instead of trapesium as before).
Does that make sense?

In reply to Ian Kirkham:
Makes sense though I have to admit it's not something I had ever considered. Is it the webbing or the biner that fail when quickdraws are pulled to destruction? I was under the impression that the weakest point of modern biners is the nose (area where gate meets body).

In reply to Andrew: would be the krab... can remember seeing a video .... you dont realise how mugh a gate can spring open and closed when they are tested!!

After watching it I can remember thinking about changing all my crabs for dmm screwgates!!