/ indoor wall grade to trad grade.....
Perhaps about VS grade...
Somewhere between Mod-E2.
However I would advise against trying this unless you want to be taken into consideration for a Darwin Award. There's a lot more factors outside technical difficulty that need to be taken into account.
They don't relate at all.
I'm not being deliberately difficult but until someone climbs outdoors on trad you have no idea what they can manage. From your profile you've climbed outdoors so you'll know how different it is. Just start them out easy on routes not too committing and build up.
I'd broadly agree but IMO if you went from indoor 6a to outdoor you would be comfortable on S with rapid progression to VS and have the strength (but not the head or experience) to get up some harder climbs
I know they don't exactly relate so didn't want or expect a definite answer......and I didn't think you were being difficult :-)
as a top rope of each F6a on the same rock is about the same as well protected HVS/E1. However trad leading takes a lot of energy placing gear and considering moves (no coloured holds, often more choice of often poor holds, route finding, consequences of a fall etc), I would say for overall pump factor about VS although the crux moves will feel much easier on the VS.
If you are not used to natural rock then expect a big learning curve!
Some rock types can be a bit easier for that transition from indoors to out. You're in Lancashire so getting them on some quarried grit which has positive crimps and footholds would make it easier for them than some natural grit jamming crack for example. Something like witches quarry (limestone) has more obvious holds than natural grit too and on the whole pretty decent gear.
About VD for your first time, rapidly rising to VS over the next few visits.
top roping a 6a indoors will feel a bit like top roping HVS outdoors
leading a 6a indoors will feel nothing like leading an HVS outdoors
If you can already lead well outdoors: You'd know but maybe VS and F6a seem like a reasonable fit for folk who do a bit of everything.
If you don't yet lead outdoors: Start at Diff, work your way up.
If you mean 'On what sort of routes might I expect to find F6a climbing?': maybe F5-F6b and VS-E4.
Nice thread, have to admit I still like the phrase "why cant I lead 6A outside!"
> Nice thread, have to admit I still like the phrase "why cant I lead 6A outside!"
In many instances, I don't thing F6a indoors translates all that well to F6a outdoors! F6a on slate requires a different head-game to sandstone or limestone, especially when clips are all the more spaced out...
Tricky question! For someone with absolutely no experience of trad, who is looking to make the transition from indoor climbing, perhaps start with the idea that all indoor grades "equate" to VDiff.
I think you've had some good answers, some crap ones and some deliberately disingenuous ones.
If you look it up in a grade comparison table, f6a equates to somewhere between HVS and E1. Not VS.
However, that is only a part of the story. Sometimes (not always) indoor sports grades are soft compared to even an outdoors sports route but, even if they aren't, outside you aren't following coloured blobs, which makes route reading interesting. On top of that, trad requires you to place gear which, dependant upon the type of route, may add a physical element to it (particularly if steep) which will lead to it feeling a lot harder. And of course you will be leading on gear which does add a mental element.
I think that saying an indoor f6a equates to VS is quite misleading. When you are used to placing gear outside, being able to onsight lead f6a indoors is not incomparable in a physical sense to being able to lead around HVS/E1 outside. However, when you first go outside, don't expect f6a ability to get you up something that hard. You will need to build your experience of trad and after a while you may well find that f6a gives you sufficient leeway to make VS's seem quite reasonable propositions. And if f6a is your absolute limit, you probably won't be able to squeeze the gap sufficiently to safely lead E1. However, if you have f6b ability and therefore something in hand, you may find that HVS/E1 feels about f6a.
Anyway, start easy (V Diff is always a good starter) and work your way up the grades. Don't jump on something you really might fall off until you are 100% on your gear placements.
As stated doesn't really equate but you can take a guess using the table below
Accoring to this 6a is in the HVS-E2 range
if this helps i toprope 6c/7a indoors, lead at 6a. but outdoors i can barely lead a v-diff, although i can second harder.
Long story short I'm a bit of a coward but I definitely can't translate indoor grades to trad
About two and a bit years ago I was leading 6a (just) and I started to trad climb, I was cautious with grades. I think whilst I was leading 6a inside I could lead 5/+ outside onsight and I could onsight HS on Wye Valley limestone. I relatively quickly (within that year or about 30 climbs) was able to lead VS but it was a year before I was comfortable and consistent at VS.
The biggest issue for me wasn't placing gear (though like many I still now wouldn't intentionally take a lob onto it) but was about learning to read the rock for hand/foot holds and learn to use holds that were very different to the plastic holds I had been using until then.
Now my sport is possibly on a par (but I haven't tested it enough to know) with my inside climbing and my Trad is going from strength to strength but is not a par with the physical/technical challenge of the sport/indoor stuff.
in short I think that indoor 6a for someone who has never been on rock would be on a par with severe outside and quickly to hard severe, VS within a year. Sport knock at least a grade of sport grad in for out. Caveat that my experience was on lower wye limestone, not the Grit that many people populate.
Purely physically - HVS 5a
eg if you can top rope 6A indoors you can top rope HVS 5a outdoors, probably
For me I lead 6b except really overhanging routes indoors and I am finding that i'm a VS climber. Although I have done a few HVS.
I found the transition from indoor to outdoor quite interesting.
I spent the winter indoors, climbing regularly to work on basic movement, strength and rope skills. Top roping to 6c and leading 6a is generally quite consistent for me, and usually depends only on how fit I'm feeling that day!
However, when I moved on to trad, initially there were a hundred different factors which affected the level at which I could climb that day:
how nervous I was (the night before, the drive to the crag, at the bottom of the crag)
the condition of the rock (dirty, slimy?)
how well my last pitch/route had gone
the exposure and psychological impact of gear placements (for example the second pitch of The Flying Dutchman at Polldubh (S), although has good feet, the traverse is exposed and the prospect of a wee swing back into the corner is quite a load on the mind of a novice like myself, so it felt much "harder" than a severe, although the moves were actually rather simple)
how much confidence my partner has instilled in me that day (whether by encouragement, advice or generally making me feel well looked after)
Basically, that's a long winded way of me saying that I can't lead consistently at any grade outdoors! Whereas I generally know what I can and can't do indoors quite specifically.
That said, I'd rather be shaking like a dogs leg on Severe outdoors than cruising 6's indoors.
Firstly the grade comparison table applies to folk experienced at both areas. Secondly I think even then it is generous to the bolt clippers by at least a grade (ie f6a is more like VS onsight for people pushing themselves at these grades). Thirdly its an average not a best ascent (ie not just a route that suits you). Fourthly some indoor f6a averages are possibly below f5+. The stress of a relative outdoor novice leading onsight with a rack, even on indoor-wall-like moves, should never be underestimated. It does depend a bit on skill though: HVS~f6a seems to be OK for folk climbing well within themselves who are experienced with trad gear placement.
So I think for a first timer GrahamD is closest on these replies. I'd say start on well protected VDs that dont involve anything uncommon indoors (like chinmey or offwidth or hand jamming) and once youve got the hang of placing trad pro, progressing to similar VS climbs should be rapid.
That is actually what I said though I took a rather long-winded route to get there. My point being that if you are experienced and with something in hand, f6a will indeed feel about HVS/E1 (and I'd still say your average 6a sits somewhere between HVS and E1 and ultimately depends on style of climbing, location etc). However, I completely agree that if you can *only* manage f6a then you are likely to struggle on HVS/E1 territory.
All this about it feeling about VS is, in my view, missing the point. I think the reality is that your average climber (ie. who plays at it and has other things in their life etc), finds leading VS quite hard enough (it is supposedly the average max lead grade after all) and I suspect it wouldn't really matter whether they could lead sports 6a or 6b or 6c - as testified by a few posters above. The point being that for many it isn't very much about the physical side and is much more about the mental aspects plus uncertainties over gear and other factors. So if you take you average wall climber who probably is operating around 6a then you will, surprise surprise, find they end up leading about VS. In other words I don't think it's what the two grades 'feel' like at all - it's simply that most punters down the wall are climbing around f6a onsight and VS is where most people end up on trad for quite different reasons.
That was a bit of a ramble too... ;)
From watching decades of other climbers, all across the UK, I think the 'pick at random on the day and onsight' which I'd regard as the true average lead grade is easy HS or toughish Severe. VS as an average is only on a good day on a crag that suits. Checking every route you can for a several guides soon shows real leading levels. Ignoring sandbags, mine is somewhere high in the VS band... I never fail on a fairly graded HS but still fail on more HVS onsights than not. Equally on a good day, even though I'm unfit at present, I still lead some easy E1s with comfort.
I think on comparisons of trad with sport its important and responsible to err on the side of caution and equate at close to peoples' limits (rather than as at present for 'cruised' grades); hence my regular postings on this subject. The difficulty curve at a climber's limit raises much faster on trad than it does on sports routes. It's not just the extra weight of gear: the anxiety of being pushed and the consequencies of failure also weigh heavily.
I did say VS was supposedly the average MAX lead grade ie. that most climbers will lead at some point. I agree that the average climber is probably operating a bit below that most of the time. However, as Graham said, I think most keen'ish climbers who are new to it all will after several years be leading around VS (if they stick with it). We all know people who do better and worse than that of course.
Similarly, f6a is the sort of sports grade which most fit people can climb fairly early on in the climbing careers but where leading at that level may still take a little experience.
So my theory is that your average climber may well be able to lead f6a and VS after a few years without too much real training but for quite different reasons - they don't 'feel' the same, but they are possibly where the average climber ends up in the two different disciplines. One is due largely to physical difficulty and technique, the other is largely a mental game (not entirely by any means but that tends to be limiting factor). So whilst that is where the average climber may end up feeling comfortable, the two grades do not equate imo.
I can think of plenty of trad routes where if your sports grade were f6a, you would be absolutely fine on at least HVS territory provided you were competent with gear.
Sorry missed that max bit. I actually think max is probably well into the HVS band.. ie there is a good gap between best lead and true average ability. In which case I agree with your 'theory' with the exception that being competant with gear has much more to it than safe placement... it has planning of climbing and placement tactics (shit I've used all my small nuts!?) a recognition that good vital placements can take time (a bit of a lottery at times even for experienced climbers) and sap a disproportionate amount of energy at your limit, recovery from fumbles, surprises etc: bolt clipping in comparison is much more straightforward.
Been climbing 3 years (and over 400 routes inc. sport and winter), lead E1 (and an odd E2) and climbing somewhere in the 6s ... have led 6c once clean inside, not sure on my outdoor onsight sports limit as not done very much of it, so current onsight best is 6a+ ... although planning to find out what is possible this year. Think it all depends on what you want to acheive, and how much effort you put in! Worth being aware that indoor grades are even more variable than the outdoor kind!
6a (lead or toprope) will translate to different levels of outdoor trad lead, second or toprope.
If you can toprope/lead all 6a indoors maybe you can second or toprope some tough VS (avoiding cracks) some HVS and some bold E1's.
If you are thinking 'what shall I lead outside' with no experience then start single pitch and do what we all did/do, work your way up from diff (avoiding chimneys! the old dudes were good at these) leading trad is a head and experience game.
My mate could do 6c+/7a at the wall. First lead fell off troutdale pinnacle (Severe ish)lucky not to die,
today saw a guy trying to climb a VS in staffordshire. after 4 hours he was still trying to get a nut out so he could give up. You could place the nut from the ground, but having fallen on it, then abseiled 40m to 'get above it'it was still proving impossible to get out. In the end I stopped bouldering and took it out for him, which took about 6 seconds.
Outdoor climbing has so many pitfalls trad or sport....
> today saw a guy trying to climb a VS in staffordshire. after 4 hours he was still trying to get a nut out so he could give up. You could place the nut from the ground, but having fallen on it, then abseiled 40m to 'get above it'it was still proving impossible to get out. In the end I stopped bouldering and took it out for him, which took about 6 seconds.
I'm just impressed that a boulderer knew what a nut was! Did you need a spotter? :-)
I just used my telescopic toothbrush to get it out,i had to ask what it was but it had to go as it was blocking a V0 2a/3 problem
not really,only got the mat this year as no mates...been climbing trad for 31 years
Extrapolating some of the logbooks - I'd say Stanage edge ;-)
'Great' I thought, 'let's see what I can do outside'.
Got a guide book, got a comparison chart and I and a friend (who had bought all the trad gear but had never been out) went up to Almscliffe. Dived straight on to what, if I recall, was an E4. Placed my first bit of gear, thinking this is dead easy. Got towards placing my second bit of gear, head went, feet went and I just froze. I got completely and utterly stuck.
Fell off, first bit of gear I'd placed pulled out because I had no clue what I was doing and I fortunately landed on a very soft bit of grass bruising little but my ego and my arse.
Sought out a VDiff after that and practiced placing gear at the bottom of the wall.
That said, I found sport climbing at Troller's Gill (is that right?) to be pretty much the same as climbing indoor.
its totally incomparable as far as i'm concerned. the difficulty ratings can be matched up but in terms of ability, most will climb much much harder on sport due to the psyche out of trad climbing. trad is a much more intense experience I find.
Someone I know had been climbing indoors for a bit he pretty happy top roping 6a/b and wanted to go outside and play. Took him up Wall Corner (HVD 4a) at Burbage North and he eventually dragged his puffing jibbering body over the top to ask what grade it was, his face was a picture when we told him!
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