/ Why call it a ground up when it's only an on site attempt?
It's when you walk to the base of a cliff that's never been climbed or inspected before and climb a line "ground up" expelling rocks, trees, lichen, insects and small furry animals in the process. If you fall or rest we call it a "ground up attempt" if you get to the top without falling you've bagged a "ground up first ascent".
The phrase "ground up" refers to the increased difficultly and risk (often mostly to the belayer) associated with climbing a line which has never been climbed, researched or cleaned. It is significantly difficult than a mere on site.
I did a quick search on ukc forums and couldn't find the answer.
You have answered your own question with the first line of the OP. It has a different meaning.
I agree.. in NZ I think it's used for first ascents only, not general onsights.
Attempting a route ground up, no idea if it's actually possible, if you'll get gear or how long the Run out etc Like Paul rogers and Murray Judge on Labrinth is real adventure!
I think he wants to know Is there any difference between this term and the term onsight, as it dosn't seem so to us foreigners but we might be missing something.
Ground up: Climbing a route till a fall. Then lowering down to the ground and pulling the rope down. Then starting again with the gear still in. What the op is describing is an "aid point used".
Getting up to the top without falling, on an unknown route is an onsight, regardless of the dirtyness of the climb.
Thank you for the responses! Ground Ups in UK = NZ Siege Tactics. Actually no one really says they use siege tactics any more in NZ it's just called a fail I guess.
Which news item do you mean?
I think that may say more about you than the bearded hex swinger.
I always assumed it was 'softer' than a red point. Pink being a softer shade of red.
Are you talking about Hazel Findlay's Impact Day attempt ?
If so i found it very newsworthy as it would be one of ( the ? ) hardest climbs done by a British woman if she had succeeded. Her reasons for failing are also very enlightening. For me it was newsworthy as it showed what levels people are trying and what they are laying on the line to do so.
Do you expect a news report on a sports match if your team lose ?
Siege tactics might also involve repeatedly dogging the moves and yo-yoing (ie going to ground and not pulling the ropes)and a variety of other shenanigans such as placing additional gear whilst sitting on gear, hanging belays to avoid hard moves... <sigh> them where the days
A ground-up ascent might only involve one fall and a return to the ground pulling the ropes then leading to the top. Far more pious and puritanical :-)
Doubt it. Pink point was also used here in the late 80's / early 90's by sport climbers to refer to redpointing sport routes with the clips in
Giving credit to the (uk-meaning) ground up attempt incentivises people to get out there and have a go at onsights - if you dont get it first go you can pull the rope, do it ground up, and that's still seen as a good style of ascent because you at least gave it a go in what's usually seen as a "better" style. If you effectively treat a ground-up and a headpoint as equivalent style then the incentive to try stuff right on your limit onsight is diminished - why not headpoint essentially if a ground up (which is a bigger undertaking) is seen as the same?
I had a friend who said once that it was the approach that was important (ie starting with a ground up approach) - the eventual result was almost secondary to approaching it in the "better" way and having a go at the onsight.
It's quite different, I think - if someone does something ground-up then they've committed to the scary run out sections without knowing whether they can do the moves or not, and they've committed to the whole thing not knowing how good the gear is. At some point they're putting their life on the line with a whole lot more unknowns on the equation than there would be if they'd rehearsed the moves and checked the gear on abseil.
It's also quite a natural style, because it basically means that you could start at the bottom and get to the top in the absence of an easy way around the side, which kind of makes sense in a general mountaineering context.
I think one of the reasons that a NZ ground up differs from a UK ground up is that we have less unclimbed rock than you, I don't think Brown/Whillans et al made it to NZ!
A heck of a lot of us went round the crags with 'think pink' t.shirts on in the 80's. Nowt to do with sex at all.
> I think one of the reasons that a NZ ground up differs from a UK ground up is that we have less unclimbed rock than you, I don't think Brown/Whillans et al made it to NZ!
That's definately true (but you guys have the best variety of rock) we are lucky we have so much unclimbed rock both have positives
> A heck of a lot of us went round the crags with 'think pink' t.shirts on in the 80's. Nowt to do with sex at all.
Eee by gum reet good for relaxing your mind and understanding nature.
Grade for grade some routes can be harder to ground-up than headpoint and other routes the other way round and it requires a bit of insight to know which is more impressive. Some routes lend themselves to a certain style of attempt/ascent.
The other view is that its not to do with relative difficulty but that ground-up is a more authentic/natural approach - a view held longer and more fiercely in the States and perhaps more natural there as the cliffs are generally bigger. For smaller cliffs too now with mat technology which is a compelling style - though how authentic/natural taking a stepladder, brushes on a stick and levelling out landings remains questionable!
Choices. Follow the religion you like or pick the bits of each religion you prefer. Most importantly stay fashionable or be good enough to set the trend.
'Redpoint', AIUI, includes looking at the route on abseil or on a toprope and is a totally different kettle of fish, because the climber sets off onto the hard unprotected bit knowing that they won't unexpectedly run into a stopper move and that they only have to get to that little crack and then there's a bomber nut in it.
Thr phrase on-site here is usually confined to the construction industry H and S requirements
That's what i was getting at, not the terminology part.
It was news that someone was trying what i think will be the hardest trad route climbed in the UK by a woman.
James Pearson attempting Muy Caliente OS. He failed but was it interesting news ? I thought so and so did many others so i guess that's why UKC reported it.
UKC - the News Of The World of climbing ;0)
And yeah, getting a mate to abseil and strip the route would be a 'more ethical' ascent, however, its a faff and not very fun.
Is this still going?
We don't climb as hard (grade wise) as you guys because we don't have a lot of accessible developed rock to practice on. We also don't write about hard Ground Ups in our news they just get done and put in the guide book, often with no mention that they were done ground up, it's more just a first ascentionst ethic for oneself, not a way to promote oneself.
The hardest I know of at a crag which is being developed is E6 (there may be harder ground ups other crags) but I think harder ones will go in, in future.
Yup I guess all my angst is that I like the NZ term, it's been around since the 70's and it's a great way to do the first ascent of a route. Also I like that the term isn't elitist anyone can "Ground Up" a route whether it's VS or E11.
There isn't really any media attention over UK ground up ascents of E6, they happen relatively regularly, as do E6 onsights. The more newsworthy ones tend to be harder like James Pearson on Muy Caliente because they require commitment and doing it second go is still very impressive.
To be honest, I quite like hearing about and watching videos of people ground up climbing hard routes http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=1104 still a good watch.
It just seems quite weird to save the name Ground up for what is literally an onsight of a new route.
Finally you can ground up anything from VS to E11 in the Uk too, infact it is even less eletist here because you can even ground up a Mod if you wanted... so there! :P
Look it's not a hughly used term in NZ, it's generally only crag developers which use it, not crag users, but it is a used term.
I think your new definition is weird but I say Tomato you say ...
"Finally you can ground up anything from VS to E11 in the Uk too".
Oh! I thought it was reserved only for hard trad on sights. I was given this impression because I never heard the term in the 9 years I was in the UK and I only recently read about it on UKC in reference to hard trad on sights.
There is a quite a lot of "overseas" from the UK that isn't New Zealand you know...
Please, and I don't think I'm being overly pedantic, it's on-sight and not on-site.
Is it really that difficult to see how the term 'ground up' can serve both purposes? It's either a ground up first ascent (maybe 'bolted ground up') or a ground up ascent ('climbed ground up').
The two effectively mean the same thing (no prior top-down access) but in a different context so it's hardly surprising the same term can be reused.
I think ground-up for trad has met with some favour in UK, so that folk who use all sorts of dubious tactics except abseiling, can make their ascent sound good, whereas to me it's just the same - an ascent but not on-sight. Particularly useful for big cliffs where abseiling is difficult and frigging upwards is easier.
Fair enough. Come to think of it I've done many 'ground up' first ascents in Britain but don't ever remember describing any of them as such, so it's almost certainly a new way of using the term. Actually I don't remember the term ever being used in the past to describe ascents in Britain, so we've no doubt appropriated it (or increased its use) while adapting it at the same time. Language, eh? It just won't stay still.
Have a fish ;-)
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