/ Stupid Question about Bouldering

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chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012

Why do some indoor wall nazi staff insist that you can't boulder wearing a harness?

it damages the crash mats?

you could injure yourself?

I don't understand!?!
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
Because normally the people who boulder wearing harnesses tend to have things clipped to them? Landing on a belay device can hurt a bit.
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean:

in that case why not say.... don't boulder with gear on your harness... i mean i ve seen people wear a whole rack on a bandoleer for 'training' and no one bats an eye lid... they just think they are either really pro... or a douche.
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
Because you can spot a harness easily from a distance but a belay device is harder to see, so it is easier for the bouldering nazis to check?
Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: Why would you want to boulder in a harness anyway?
Pete Dangerous - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

Maybe there's a possibility of snagging your harness on something while slipping off, causing a bad landing. Why would you want to wear a harness while bouldering anyway?
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:

because often, when I go climbing indoors.... a might climb, then boulder, then climb, then boulder and so forth.... it becomes tedious to take your harness on and off... and before any one asks why not just climb everything you want to and then boulder.... well that's just not me.
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:
Why would you want to boulder in a harness anyway? <?i>

The two main reasons are training for hard starts on trad routes and trolling forums :-)

Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: I can't see how removing your harness, which only takes about 10 seconds, is any more tedious than switching between routes and boulder problems one after the other. You probably spend more time walking around the centre than actually climbing.
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean:

this is not a troll... I overheard a wall nazi yesterday telling someone to take off their harness for bouldering!
tom_in_edinburgh - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

a. In case you fall onto a crab or belay device clipped to it.

b. In case you fall or don't jump far enough back and a loop on your harness catches on a hold on the way down and you get flipped, turning a safe landing on your feet into an unsafe one.

They're not actually nazis. They're just trying to stop customers getting hurt and the wall potentially getting sued.
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
They're not actually nazis.

Got any evidence for that? Given the number of climbing wall employees in the UK and the general spread of political views in the population it would seem a reasonable assumption that at least one climbing wall employee liked goose stepping and Aryan supremacy?
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
> (In reply to chocolatefingers)
>
> a. In case you fall onto a crab or belay device clipped to it.
>
> b. In case you fall or don't jump far enough back and a loop on your harness catches on a hold on the way down and you get flipped, turning a safe landing on your feet into an unsafe one.
>


You see, I thought wearing a harness would be safer... surely if one of the gear loops miraculously catch on a hold, it would arrest your fall, or even act as passive protection, stopping you from decking out on those hard bouldering mats!

Falling off wearing a belay device...onto crash mats... LETHAL... however taking a 30 foot wanger wearing an entire rack and swinging into a rock wall...well that's perfectly safe.

My point is... why go to the Nth degree to make indoor bouldering 'safe' for the sake of being able to tell people off that just want to climb.

mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
My point is... why go to the Nth degree to make indoor bouldering 'safe' for the sake of being able to tell people off that just want to climb.

Because of liability, several clikmbing walls have been sued over the silly mistakes of their users.
Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: Awww, did you get told off for wearing your harness?:-(

Follow the rules or don't climb at the centre, it's that simple. People who wear harnesses are usually the ones that get in the way when I'm bouldering anyway.
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:

Yes, I couldn't agree more and Hail Hitler!
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:
>
> Follow the rules or don't climb at the centre, it's that simple.

It's your only local training facility. The rules are stupid. So you object to the rules ... that's how debate, change, progress happens. It isn't simple at all. And you know, follow the rules, take your orders, don't question stuff, I'm only taking orders ...
At least you might get an explanation, which may in this case be not that the wall staff ar Nazis but that they are worried that insurance people (the REAL Nazis) will turn them over in the event of a claim, which is sad and pathetic. Why not have Leveson inquiry into the insurance trade rather than ... Oh, sorry started ranting again!

R

Kemics - on 21 Jun 2012
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:

>
> Follow the rules or don't climb at the centre, it's that simple.

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise.

Would you be willing to take a blue size 5 dragon cam to the rear as punishment if it was in the climbing walls rules and regulations for bouldering with your beanie on?
GrahamD - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

FFS grow up. Do you know what a Nazi is ? I'll give you a clue: it is not someone just doing their job to ensure that you have a safe environment in which to indulge your hobby.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: Does that question have a link to your username? I'm worried.
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to GrahamD:

In that case... lets make everyone wear helments when the go climbing indoors... I think you are missing my point. What actual REAL reason is there for not wearing a harness while bouldering?

On a serious note. Isn't it less safe to lead climb indoors without a helmet? yet I don't know a single indoor wall that makes climbers wear helments whilst leading. But I know plenty that ask not to wear a harness whilst bouldering.

Enough talk of nazis... all I want is an acceptable reason for this rule! rules need to be challenged.. otherwise we'll end up like mindless drones slaving away to adhere to out of date and out of touch misconceptions.
Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to GrahamD: *like*

Believe it or not, the people who work at walls tend to be climbers just like you. They wouldn't tell you to do something if there wasn't a reason. Normally to stop idiotic punters from hurting themselves. Look at the case of the woman at craggy(I think) a few months ago who jumped off and sued. The rules are there to prevent things like this happening. If you don't like it, don't climb there. Don't post some rubbish about rules being guidance for the wise, that's not going to make any difference.:')

And Richard Baynes, yeah that's fair enough. But we're talking about wearing your harness whilst on a bouldering wall, hardly the most important political topic is it?;-)
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to GrahamD:
FFS grow up. Do you know what a Nazi is ? I'll give you a clue: it is not someone just doing their job to ensure that you have a safe environment in which to indulge your hobby.

Unless your hobby happens to be goose stepping, oppressing minorities and invading Poland in which case the Nazis are all about the safe hobby environment.

;-)

Durbs on 21 Jun 2012
You're right - it is a stupid question.

Several people have pointed out why you're asked to take it off.

1) It's that or remove any gear to prevent landing on something metal. You'd then have a bouldering area surrounded by belays, krabs and other random metal bits
2) The risk of gear-loops or the harness itself catching on something when falling/dropping.



Monk - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

You've been presented with several reasons. Metal stuff attached to harnesses can injure both you and people around you. If you don't believe me, try it. Landing on a krab hurts.

Plus, if that harness does catch on a hold, it really isn't a good thing. A controlled fall is far preferable and far less likely to end in injury.

To be honest, the vast majority of times bouldering in a harness without attached metalwork will be absolutely fine, but the rules are made to prevent people bouldering with gear on their harness. Climbing walls have a duty to ensure that their environment is as safe as can reasonably expected. This is really not a big deal for most people.
webbo - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
The main reason is you look a complete dick bouldering with your harness on. The staff are just trying to stop you looking like a punter.
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Kemics: Isn't it the first rule of internet debates that it will always descend into comparison with the Third Reich!? At least I didn't mention Nazis first.
I think it was the mention of "rules" that made me see red! Back in my day climbing was about rebellion mutter mumble chunter...
I love bouldering in my harness at the wall just to piss off the shirts-off brigade.
gi - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

I believe many walls don't like you to wear harnesses when bouldering because of the following:

A. If you fall off and land on someone then having belay device on you is only going to make things worse for both of you.

B. If some one is spotting you and catches their fingers or thumbs in your harness they are easily broken.

C. metal work clipped to the back and tear or puncture the mats and mat covers are very expensive to replace.

D. There is potential to get hung up on holds and if you are not in any kind of rope system it makes it harder to get a person down.

E. It is stipulated in BMC guidelines and also in most wall's insurance I believe.

F. Even if you don't have anything clipped to your harness the buckles can still hurt people as you fall onto them.

And here are some reasons why you should take you harness off when bouldering:

A. You'll look like an idiot

B. Floor walkers are very attuned to spotting the signs of a 'chronic bumbly' and bouldering while wearing a harness is a pretty sure fire sign that someone has little idea of what they are doing an will there for be looking very closely at what you do when using the walls.

As Oscar Wilde once said:

"it is better to have people think you are bumbly then to wear your harness in the bouldering area and prove it" ..or something..
Flinticus - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to webbo:
Agree!

Best present this reason as well as the other two oft provided, in themselves, entirely sufficient reasons.
Neil Williams - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

It might catch on a hold when you fall and spin you upside down or slam you against the wall.

Neil
Estaban on 21 Jun 2012 - host-89-242-40-128.as13285.net
In reply to chocolatefingers:

I'm very surprised your allowed to climb anywhere if you don't understand why you don't boulder in a harness. Common sense anyone? Or am I feeding the troll?
Trangia - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

Because it's not allowed, particularly under bridges
flash13 - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: the fact there is a BMC poster that already advises you not to do this should be enough. The floor walker is just reinforcing this!
alooker - on 21 Jun 2012
Please everyone, don't use Nazi in such a flippant way, it's really quite offensive - not to the 'jobs-worth' wall employee but to the people and families affected. It's really not a funny joke
richyfenn on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

It's nothing to do with safety, it's to stop you hooking the belay loop over a hold and having a rest, because that's cheating.
markez on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

I'm not sure how much bouldering you'd get done anyway with a harness on; I'd bet every other boulderer there would eventually ask you about it. Hopefully in as sly a manner as possible.
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to richyfenn: Having waded in above a bit OTT over the rules thing, I have got to say that I find it quite incredible that anyone can be bothered about bouldering in a harness. The speculation on here about possible harm is stretching it to the extreme: sure, you could hurt yourself falling onto a stich plate but you might have your keys in your pocket and land on them, your trouser leg might catch on a hold, you might (as I have done) knock your specs off accidentally and (not as I have done) get poked in the eye by them. I laughed out loud at the [people saying "it's obvious, why don't people understand." There is NO reason for such a ban other than thinking of the most extreme eventuality. If we accept the risks of bouldering (broken leg I have seen) then I donl't think we're too worried about a buttock bruise from a sticht plate.
Ramblin dave - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
It's to stop your toys catching on the gear loops when you throw them out of the pram.
JayPee630 - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

You offensive tw*t. Stop using Nazi references please for someone enforcing a sensible rule to prevent injuries.
JayPee630 - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:

But you can't see what people have in their pockets, whereas it's easy ot see if they've wearing a harness.

Have you seen a smashed pelvis from falling on a krab/belay device on a harness? It's not pretty.
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to gi:

Thanks you gi for giving me some definite and valid answers.

However, the following are more 'dangerous' that wearing a harness bouldering yet they are no where near as widely inforced.

A. Lead Climbing without a helmet

B. Bouldering without someone spotting you

C. Bouldering wearing a beanie (has the potential to slip down and temporarily blind your vision resulting in you falling off or injuring yourself)

D. Climbing in shorts (potential to graze your knee on the wall, leading to loss of blood and possible transmission of diseases)

E. Climbing with a full trad rack on for 'training' reasons (including wearing slings around your body that could get caught on holds and strangle you)

why are these dangers not addressed in the BMC guidelines or enforced at climbing walls? riddle me that!
Quiddity - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:

I suspect the main reason, listed above, is that allowing people to boulder in harnesses invalidates the wall's insurance and therefore they are understandably keen not to let people do it.

given that such insurance allows walls to operate commercially, which I don't see anyone on here complaining about, I don't think making such a fuss over such a small stipulation is particularly useful.
Paul Twomey - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

We've never had a request at TCA for bouldering in a harness...
Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Paul Twomey: But have you had a letter from a solicitor accussing you of negligence for not providing harnesses for your customers :-)
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: so you don't damage the crash mat with any metal work on your harness. I thought that would be obvious to any well trained nazi spotter.
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
For whoever said the thing about smashed pelvises, I would imagine the force needed to generate a smashed pelvis is unlikely to come from falling from a bouldering wall (although I have seen a very nasty broken leg) and although you may correct me here from your own experience, I struggle to see a belay device smashing a pelvis in a bouldering scenario. If it has happened at a wall onto bouldering mats and someone can attest to this honestly, then I'll take it all back.
I accept that the reason behind all this is probably insurance but again make the point that we should perhaps be questioning how insurance companies and their stupid rules affect all of us for the worse.
For me it would be a real pain if I was told to remove my harness. I don't use my local wall a lot but when I do I quite often will move from climbing on the wall to having a boulder and back and forth, maybe waiting for a partner or stepping out to let someone else have a go. I can't be bothered taking my harness off because of some fictitious threat.
Mike Nolan - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: > I accept that the reason behind all this is probably insurance but again make the point that we should perhaps be questioning how insurance companies and their stupid rules affect all of us for the worse.

Or you could just spend 10 seconds taking your harness off, before you give yourself a stroke worrying about how insurance companies choose their rules.

Seriously, it's not that difficult. I can't work out what all the fuss is about. I hope I never have to share a bouldering wall with some of the climbers on here!:|
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to The Big Man:

Didn't know karabiners could penetrate crash mats. I ve tried hitting my mattress with a krab all afternoon... nothing!

if anything clothes are more abrasive then smooth metal krabs?
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Mike Nolan:

my point is... it shouldn't matter.

Isn't it more dangerous climbers taking off and putting on harness continually? there is more chance they will put the harness back on wrong... especially these beginners that like to boulder and climb...
Calder - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

Why don't you open your eyes and see the answers from gi and The Big Man.

I hope they charge you for the damage you do.
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
> (In reply to The Big Man)
>
> Didn't know karabiners could penetrate crash mats. I ve tried hitting my mattress with a krab all afternoon... nothing!
>
> if anything clothes are more abrasive then smooth metal krabs?

That's why boulderers take their tops off.


Point to note, speaking for myself and, judging by other responses, some others, i would appreciate if you retracted your OP and appologised for the misuse of the term nazi, when refering to, often low paid but extremely enthusiastic climbing wall staff.


I await your humble groveling apology :)
Kieran_John - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

It's about limiting the potential for accidents and insurance.

Besides which, it's uncomfortable, limiting and adds completely unnecessary weight.

It also makes you look dumb.
parkovski - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
> They're not actually nazis.
>
> Got any evidence for that? Given the number of climbing wall employees in the UK and the general spread of political views in the population it would seem a reasonable assumption that at least one climbing wall employee liked goose stepping and Aryan supremacy?


I estimate the probability of there being at least one active neo-facist climbing wall employee in the UK as being 50% at best. There are a lot of people in the country, and both climbing wall employees and bona-fide goose steppers are pretty small minorities.

To the OP - Congratulations on your ridiculous sentiments. Your mind must be a fertile place with such manure spread liberally upon it's furrowed cortices. By mindlessly (and insultingly) employing a Nazi metaphor in the first post, you have achieved the Godwin's law equivalent of lightspeed. I would give you a gold star, but that has far too many historical analogues. So instead I invite you to stand in the corner and think about what you've done...
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to parkovski: i like the way you worded that :)
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to parkovski:
I'm not so sure, climbing wall employees and British facist thugs both seem to be more heavily represented in a similar age and gender range (Male and younger adults). Given that UKC has demonstrated that political viewpoints in the climbing population don't follow a normal distribution, I feel the chances of political extremists from either end of the spectrum are likely to be more prevalent than those with centerist politics.
Ava Adore - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Calder:
> (In reply to chocolatefingers)
>
> Why don't you open your eyes and see the answers from gi and The Big Man.
>
>

When I asked the question of at my wall, I was also told this was the reason (potentially damaging crash mats).



Niall - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
> (In reply to tom_in_edinburgh)
>
>
> My point is... why go to the Nth degree to make indoor bouldering 'safe' for the sake of being able to tell people off that just want to climb.

Louise Pinchbeck.

That's why.

You're welcome.
parkovski - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean:

I have no doubts that those with rightward leaning are numerous. However we aren't even talking far right, but rather far far far right. The image presented was an active "goose-stepping" neo-fascist who genuinely idolizes the dominant politics of 1930's Germany - most BNP members don't even approach this (being simply racist cretins). I'm not sure i'd interpret the anecdotally recorded extreme opinions put forth on this forum as an accurate sampling of the populations political views. Neither would I think the dominant posting population reflects the membership of the website. Furtermore, I'd take extreme caution in using UKclimbing as a representative sample of all climbers.

The point was banal anyway I guess - whichever way you cut the stats, the likelihood of a common climbing wall policy being inspired and enforced by underlying far-right dogma is plainly foolish. I just can't resist any opportunity for some back of the envelope calculations. Sorry.

The important point is that the OP has failed to accept any sensible answers to his question, or apologise for his insulting reference to climbing wall staff. As such I encourage all and sundry to unleash the maximum level of ridicule that the moderators deem acceptable.
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to alooker:
Please everyone, don't use Nazi in such a flippant way,

Are the Spanish Inquisition ok?

Sorry if you didn't expect them ;-)

Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean: Out of the 13 reception staff we have, 8 are female and 5 are male (we have no hermaphrodite employees that I am aware of).

I am pretty sure none of them are card carrying Nazi's.

Imagine the scenario. A climber wearing a harness is involved in an incident that causes injury to someone else - how this happens is irrelevant. Six months down the road the wall gets a solicitor's letter accusing them of negligence leading to injury. Common sense and written guidelines indicate that you should not boulder in your harness. This case might not be easy to defend. Case is lost and then even more importantly the case goes to the Appeal Court and is lost. Very expensive and a legal precedent is set that causes all sorts of hassles for the climbing wall industry and their customers.

And all because some idiot can't be bothered to take their harness off before going bouldering.

A far fetched scenario?? Possibly but probably no more far fetched than the Craggy case or others that I have heard about
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Sorry if you missed my earlier posts Graeme, I was highlighting the stupidity of the idea that wall staff were Nazis for enforcing safety rules. I'll take your word on the political affiliations and gender of your staff :-)
Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to mkean: Sorry, I should have put a smiley after the bit about sex/Nazi affiliation - it was fairly obvious you were highlighting the stupidty of the OP's statement.

I made no comment about the gender of my staff, only their sex :-)
chocolatefingers - on 21 Jun 2012
...guys I'm out of popcorn
mkean - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
sex/Nazi affiliation

Don't mention the sex nazis, you'll have Max Mosleys lawyers all over you!
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to parkovski: agreed
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: post your address and I'll send some over :)
robw007 - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

Just quickly reading through this thread I reckon its best if you pack in this bouldering lark - massively dangerous (especially with a harness it would appear) and it causes you to get stressed with the management!

Most people go climbing to relax and have a good time .........!!
Alex Slipchuk on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:
> ...guys I'm out of popcorn

you've just backed down in public by pretending it was a troll. Now show some backbone and give the staff at the wall some credit for being observant to safety and doing their jobs correctly. apologise for calling them Nazis.
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson: I'm not an idiot. I wear a harness sometimes when I'm bouldering. It doesn't look silly (it looks quite sexy actually), it just looks like someone having a break from climbing on the wall. Has there ever been an instance of someone being hurt by wearing a harness to boulder? If so please give details here. I would really like to hear it, because that would be a persuasive argument rather than speculation. If not, well ... You cannot obviate all possibility of risk at a climbing wall, and if your insurers impose absurd restrictions you should at least argue the toss instead of agreeing with them.
Y'know I know getting mad at rubbish on the internet is a bad thing, but to call people idiots for doing something as innocent as having a wee boulder without stripping off the harness is a bit much.
Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes: I don't know if someone has been hurt either by wearing a harness at a wall or by being hit by someone wearing a harness with some bits of metal - this last point is equally as important. But then again I don't know of anyone who has climbed over the top of a bouldering wall and got impaled on the numerous screws that stick through most walls. Most walls have a rule against the latter because it is common sense, so why not the former.

In my opinion there is a possibility of an injury being caused by someone wearing a harness so I am happy for walls to enforce this rule at the slight inconvenience to the odd climber who canít be bothered to take their harness off.

It is not about insurer's imposing absurd restrictions (our insurers have a Wall owner on their Board of Directors so are pretty good). It is about trying to prevent somebody suing because there has been an injury and some lawyer thinks they have found a loophole. Remember that the majority of civil litigation takes place in County Courts and there is very little quotable case law - you are in the hands of a Judge who knows nothing at all about climbing. In this scenario if a judge thinks it an injury could have been prevented by having a no harness wearing whilst bouldering rule then the defendant will lose the case.

And BTW if you did wear a harness at my wall you would most definately look like at idiot ;-) Although we did have someone at Gravity come out of the changing rooms in their harness!!
Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:
> (In reply to Graeme Alderson) You cannot obviate all possibility of risk at a climbing wall,

Obviously not, which is why all walls are keen to stress to their customers that bouldering is dangerous and can lead to quite serious injuries. or more likely minor injuries but quite often. Walls are very keen to explain to insurers, Environmental Health Officers, beginners, parents etc that as part of the normal activity of bouldering you will fall off (jumping is falling) and hit the floor.

However wearing a harness whilst bouldering is not part of the normal activity.
jas wood - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: Do you also wear white socks while bouldering indoors with a harness on ?
chlobach - on 21 Jun 2012
To be fair to the OP, the thread is called "Stupid question about Bouldering" so was expecting a rather silly question, and it didn't dissapoint
victim of mathematics - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to The Big Man:

You are hilarious.

Unlike the OP, who is a moron.
Richard Baynes - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
> (In reply to Richard Baynes) I don't know if someone has been hurt either by wearing a harness at a wall or by being hit by someone wearing a harness with some bits of metal - this last point is equally as important.

So as far as we know it's never happened.

In my opinion there is a possibility of an injury being caused by someone wearing a harness so I am happy for walls to enforce this rule at the slight inconvenience to the odd climber who canít be bothered to take their harness off.

It's more than a slight inconvenience. And there you go again, "enforce this rule." No you won't, not if I tell you to get lost.

>
> It is not about insurer's imposing absurd restrictions (our insurers have a Wall owner on their Board of Directors so are pretty good). It is about trying to prevent somebody suing because there has been an injury and some lawyer thinks they have found a loophole. Remember that the majority of civil litigation takes place in County Courts and there is very little quotable case law - you are in the hands of a Judge who knows nothing at all about climbing. In this scenario if a judge thinks it an injury could have been prevented by having a no harness wearing whilst bouldering rule then the defendant will lose the case.

See my examples above: would the judge equally say because of a trouser or spectacles injury that there should be a no trousers or no specs rule. Judges actually have to apply common sense, and in my experience most have quite a lot. If someone was injured and the fact that they were wearing a harness was a factor (extremely unlikely) then why would the judge blame the wall company? Especially when the facilities are open and mixed and people can do both activities close together. Lawyers and insurers have us all running scared. Robust common sense arguments should sdee them off.
> And BTW if you did wear a harness at my wall you would most definately look like at idiot ;-) Although we did have someone at Gravity come out of the changing rooms in their harness!!

I assume your centre is a bouldering only one. I think I will come, looking chic in my harness, just to prove you wrong.
Graeme Alderson on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes: I should have phrased it differently. Try this:

"I am 100% certain that people have been hurt due to landing badly on a crab or belay device or nut tool attached to their harness or even chalk bag with a krab or by keys or something else in their pocket but I don't know if there has ever been a RIDDOR type injury."

Taking your harness off is a lesser inconvenience than being asked to leave a wall for a) not obeying the walls T&C's that you have signed up to, and b) for being rude to the staff who are doing their job. Your choice I guess.

Your faith in the judiciary is greater than mine. And you don't seem to understand how civil litigation works in England (I see you are based in Scotland so far enough this might be different in Scotland). Robust common sense is often inadmissable.

Judgements, the blame culture and the cost of defending cases is what has us running scared. The climbing wall industry and their insurers do not want to recieve solicitors letters regarding potential cases.

If an injury occurs solicitors look for something that is different from the norm. Wearing a harness whilst bouldering is not the norm.

By all means turn up at either of the bouldering only walls that I am involved with wearing your harness. Be prepared to be asked to remove it before you start climbing or be asked to leave, with your money refunded of course.
luke obrien - on 21 Jun 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:I heard the same too, I asked why once when they polittely kicked a few people off with harnesses on and was told it cost them several thousand to replace or even repair the mat. If it gets tears they are difficult to repair and people trip on them and that's where the injuries stack up.
Richard Baynes - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> "I am 100% certain that people have been hurt due to landing badly on a crab or belay device or nut tool attached to their harness or even chalk bag with a krab or by keys or something else in their pocket but I don't know if there has ever been a RIDDOR type injury."

Sorry not sure what RIDDOR means but: if you are 100 per cent sure this has happened at a bouldering wall tell us what happened. It ius completely different from this happening outdoors or onto a hard surface.
>
> Taking your harness off is a lesser inconvenience than being asked to leave a wall for a) not obeying the walls T&C's that you have signed up to, and b) for being rude to the staff who are doing their job. Your choice I guess.

Yes but the rule is unnecessary in the first place. Taking the harness off is invconvenient. I would not intend to be rude to staff, but would possibly be to the person who told them to enforce an unnecessary rule.
>
> Your faith in the judiciary is greater than mine. And you don't seem to understand how civil litigation works in England (I see you are based in Scotland so far enough this might be different in Scotland). Robust common sense is often inadmissable.
I spent many years working in England, and a fair amouint of time in court, although most of it was criminal cases (I just kept getting caught...). My experience of both civil and criminal courts was there was a lot more common sense than terrified ninnies seem to think.
>
> Judgements, the blame culture and the cost of defending cases is what has us running scared. The climbing wall industry and their insurers do not want to recieve solicitors letters regarding potential cases.
>
You don't want to receive solicitors letters because you are frightened - understandably - of tackling them. But shouldn't we resist this kind of bullying? Lawyers will try it on when they know the case is pretty thin in the hope that organisations will pay out to make life easier: by doing that, we only encourage them.

> If an injury occurs solicitors look for something that is different from the norm. Wearing a harness whilst bouldering is not the norm.
>
Actually y'know I had never even thought about this before but I genuinely have seen plenty of folk bouldering in harnesses. They look sooooooooooo cool. Certainly where I have been it appears to be quite normal, if not the norm.

> By all means turn up at either of the bouldering only walls that I am involved with wearing your harness. Be prepared to be asked to remove it before you start climbing or be asked to leave, with your money refunded of course.

Cue litigation from me as a result of unreasonable behaviour on your part!!! You can keep the money, you running dog lackey ...
Oh sorry, red button pressed by accident again.
Seriously I kinda understand were you're coming from but it's not just the lawyers or insurance firms or whatever that are to blame: we really need as a society to resist their behaviour.
mkean - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:
RIDDOR - The regulations covering the reporting of accidents.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/
parkovski - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:

my god, you and the op are really are keen to boulder in your harness aren't you?! perhaps if you wore it beneath your shorts you could remain undetected... tying in would merely require you to undo your flies!* you will also look slightly less of a bell end this way.


*Use caution around any kids, or you might find yourself in court due to the insane knee jerk of a "terrified ninny".
Richard Baynes - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to parkovski: Most amusing. It's just that it had never occurred to me to take my harness OFF if I was also climbing on the wall, and I harbour a genuine suspicion that this whole thread is just a giant wind-up. I can't for the life of me see a rationale. And I do find the pre-occupation with "looking like a bell-end" amusing. I usually look like one when I try bouldering problems anyway ... what happened to the I-don't-give-a-shit attitude? Do we all have to conform?
Anyway, that's me on the topic.
Kieran_John - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:

It's an inconvenience to take off your harness AND you look good in it? Do tell, what is this stylish, yet strangely immobile harness? Is it one of these with loops for gear attached?

http://www.redsave.com/productimages/Borat-Mankini-215(1).jpg

Seriously, they take ten seconds to take off and ten to put back on, and falling on gear isn't pleasant.
chocolatefingers - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to luke obrien:
> (In reply to Ava Adore)I heard the same too, I asked why once when they polittely kicked a few people off with harnesses on and was told it cost them several thousand to replace or even repair the mat. If it gets tears they are difficult to repair and people trip on them and that's where the injuries stack up.

I fail to see how a harness will 'damage' a mat, or even smooth karabiners... please someone tell me the physical process of how this happens?!

Also... as soooo many people like to point out. The people that boulder in harnesses are likely to be beginners... who probably aren't all that sure about putting on a harness, double backing ect.... so isn't it more likely that by asking beginners to take off their harnesses to put them on again that they are more likely to put them on incorrectly, fall out of them whilst climbing, hit the deck and do a lot more serious damage to themselves that 'getting a bruised leg' from a krab.

Ow and sorry for mentioning the war.... I know it's a bit soon.
webbo - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:
It is nothing to with to do with not giving a shit.It singles you as someone who doesn't know what their doing as you clearly don't need a harness to boulder in.
When i do a cafe stop when out on my bike.I take my helmet,I don't need to and I don't find it difficult to wear but I take it off so I don't look a tw*t.
Have you got it yet.
Gareth Pritchard - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

As an employee of a climbing wall i have seen climbers do some really stupid things in my time, not tying-in properly, not threading belay plates properly, continental belaying with a grigri, the list is endless (yes we keep a list),
whereas in most businesses the customer is always right-i've realized that in a climbing wall the customer is usually wrong.
wearing a harness while bouldering may seem trivial compared to some of the dangers mentioned above, but the reason it is included in the insurers list of hazards is because accidents have happened.
without insurance a climbing wall can't legally open, so if you have to remove your harness while bouldering in order for me to keep my job....then believe me you're removing your damn harness!
chocolatefingers - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Gareth Pritchard:

I'm not questioning that the rule is enforced, or that it is on the climbing wall insurance, I am questioning the reasoning behind it.

Graeme Alderson on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Gareth Pritchard:
> (In reply to chocolatefingers)
> without insurance a climbing wall can't legally open,

Actually you are wrong on this one - it is not a legal requirement to have Public Liability Insurance (ie the type that covers the paying customers and their activities). Lots of walls don't have this kind of cover, it is called self indemnifying, but is normally only done by walls with huge amounts of money behind them ie councils.

A privately owned wall would be crazy to not be covered as the Directors might end up footing any bills out of their own pocket. Plus customers might see such a business as a cowboy operation.

Employers Liability is a legal requirement.
RyanC - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers: The OP said it all in the thread title. It is indeed a very stupid question about bouldering.

RC
ashley1_scott - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Kieran_John:
> (In reply to Richard Baynes)
>
> It's an inconvenience to take off your harness AND you look good in it? Do tell, what is this stylish, yet strangely immobile harness?

I found the stylish harness that is strangely immoble
http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/211001150_v_7193/Realization+Short.html

As for the reason for the rule, most centres are BMC approved. The BMC says that you should remove your harness when bouldering, so if you need a reason for why you need to remove your harness. Try emailing them, office@thebmc.co.uk .

Personally when I boulder I remove anything that could injure me WHEN I fall, that means no chalk bag, no harness, nothing in my pockets, I even remove me watch just in case. Having had a foot pop off a hold at 4mtrs while on an over-hanging wall and end up on my back, I was glad that I removed my cars, as that really would have been a pain in the ar$e.
Graeme Alderson on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to ashley1_scott: Err sorry, the BMC does not approve climbing walls. Many are members of the ABC but have nor formal connection to the BMC
3 Names - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to chocolatefingers:

The main reason for not wearing a harness whilst bouldering (that everyone seem to have missed), is that it makes you look like a total punter.
Richard Baynes - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to webbo: How can it single me out as someone who doesn't know what I am doing - when I do? I find the self-consciousness and fear of "looking like a punter" hilarious. Am I supposed to go red and tangle up my feet in embarassment when one of the hard jocks sniggers at me for wearing a harness while on my way to climb on the wall and just stopping for a wee warm up on the bouldering area?
And damn, I've been sucked back in to this utterly bollocksized nonsense.
3 Names - on 22 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Baynes:
> (In reply to webbo) Am I supposed to go red and tangle up my feet in embarassment when one of the hard jocks sniggers at me for wearing a harness while on my way to climb on the wall and just stopping for a wee warm up on the bouldering area?
>
so you do get it.

ashley1_scott - on 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
My mistake,
Wide_Mouth_Frog - on 23 Jun 2012
Wow! This is still going! For what it's worth (and it's probably been said before) but if the rules for your wall say no bouldering with a harness on, you agree to the rules when you pay to go in, surely that's the end of it?? If you don't like the rules don't climb there.

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