/ Rusty 8mm bolts from the 1980's

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The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012

I presume that these should not be trusted?

Any thoughts?
dave frost - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front: I fallen onto pegs on fly wall older than, grow a pair...

The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to dave frost:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front) I fallen onto pegs on fly wall older than, grow a pair...

how do you grow a pair of bolts?
mikeyratty on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to dave frost: My mate fell onto some rusty pegs at Stoney and broke his back.This won't mend properly, ever. Grow up.
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to mikeyratty:

Get over yourself.
Jamie Abbott - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to OP:
There are bolts with a sheen of rust and there are bolts corroded to the core, best have a closer look and take a view before lobbing off ;-)

> Get over yourself.
FFS, his mate could have died in a fall- you get over yourself. Twonk.

Cheers,
Jamie
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Jamie Abbott:

So you didnt spot the joke either?
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Jamie Abbott:
> (In reply to OP)
> There are bolts with a sheen of rust and there are bolts corroded to the core, best have a closer look and take a view before lobbing off ;-)

yeah, not sure what this is - will check more closely - it is an essential single bolt in the middle of a trad route. probably should be replaced i guess.
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Why is it essential?
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Jamie Abbott)
>
> So you didnt spot the joke either?

lost me too i'm afraid
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Why is it essential?

because there is nothing else and it prevents a 20m groundfall. I guess you could do it without but i guess it would be E5 5c rather than E3
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front

I fallen onto pegs on fly wall older than, grow a pair...

If someone I new said this to me, I wold think they were joking?

3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Is it the only gear on the route?
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front
>
> I fallen onto pegs on fly wall older than, grow a pair...
>
> If someone I new said this to me, I wold think they were joking?

no, he's not joking!!
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

oh well
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Is it the only gear on the route?

no, theres a peg at about 8m and two more pegs near the top. the bolt protects the hardest and most runout section in the middle
ericinbristol - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

I assumed he was joking but maybe he wasn't. Anyway, your reply was witty. For my tuppence worth, I'd recommend assuming that the manky old bolt is rubbish and climb/grade accordingly.
john arran - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

then it could make either a memorable E5 5c lead or a less demanding 5c toprope. Is there really any advantage in having a hybrid 'worst of both worlds' compromise?
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Lose the peg I reckon
ericinbristol - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Rusty 8 mills from 30 years ago is still E5 I'd say if they are all there is between you and a groundfall.
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:

bolt I mean
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to ericinbristol:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Rusty 8 mills from 30 years ago is still E5 I'd say if they are all there is between you and a groundfall.

thats exactly what i was thinking.
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> then it could make either a memorable E5 5c lead or a less demanding 5c toprope. Is there really any advantage in having a hybrid 'worst of both worlds' compromise?

Why? theres loads of trad routes in the area that have a single bolt. It is E3 5c with the bolt and certainly not a top rope 5c!
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Vince McNally)
>
> bolt I mean

Why?
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to ericinbristol:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> I assumed he was joking but maybe he wasn't.

No. he has a death wish - happily takes big lobs on any old rubbish!
3 Names - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Because it then becomes a bold E4/5 with no bolt, which to me sounds like a better climb.
Just my opinion
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Because it then becomes a bold E4/5 with no bolt, which to me sounds like a better climb.
> Just my opinion

Yes i know what you mean, it makes it purer, but then i guess the pegs should go as well.
ericinbristol - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

In terms of replacing the bolt or not, the ethics/style of the area it's in and the first ascentionist's view would make a big difference. If it's a mixed ethic area, including an area that accepts as mixed gear on individual routes, there is a policy of like for like replacement and the first ascensionist if known and contactable agrees, then you could replace the bolt. And if not, no bolt replacement. HTH
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to ericinbristol:

Yes thanks i know all that, i am pretty sure that i can get hold of the FA via Martin Crocker but i have no equipment or knowledge of placing bolts even if it was an option.
ericinbristol - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Sorry for stating the bleedin' obvious or at least the familiar.
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Pylon King on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to ericinbristol:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Sorry for stating the bleedin' obvious or at least the familiar.

thats ok i wasn't being funny :)
ericinbristol - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Cool. Off to bed now.
adep247 - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Lots of bolts and pegs from the late 80's early 90's in my area (Rhondda) are pretty much scrap metal or rusted stumps now. I personally, don't trust them and would rather TR if it's the only protection.
Jamie Abbott - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to ericinbristol:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> Rusty 8 mills from 30 years ago is still E5 I'd say if they are all there is between you and a groundfall.

But how rusty is it? Is it under a roof out of any seepage/rain or on a sea stack in the Atlantic? If Pylon isn't bothered about blowing the onsight I say check it out on a top/bottom rope and make yer mind up from there!

Personally I'd not want to embark on the route not knowing if I could trust the key piece of gear/bolt that'd stop me decking out, especially a route at the top of my grade. Not that I've ever climbed close to E3-5 mind...

Cheers,
Jamie
Jamie Abbott - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to Jamie Abbott: I know I'd achieve a great deal more satisfaction from climbing the route after checking the bolt (then deciding to use it or not) before going for the lead than doing the whole shebang on a TR from the outset.

Cheers,
Jamie
MJ - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

I presume that these should not be trusted?

In the climbing world, have any actually failed?



SteveSBlake - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

If it's not manky, and you are looking for a bit of reassurance, you could always put a screamer on it.

Steve
mr mills - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

I re-equipped routes on The Colossuss wall in the slate quarry with 12mm stainless steel expansion bolts. Colossuss is a very good E3 5c which used to have 13 8mm bolts.
The nature of slate is quite unique as in most of the bolts came out very easily while about 3 I think would not come out.
The route is around 40 mtrs and I`m guessing that some parts of the wall the slate must have been softer/harder.
To answer your question after having a close look at the 8mm bolts I`d rather not trust them myself but, that`s my opinion.

mills.
Fraser on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to MJ:
>
> In the climbing world, have any actually failed?

Bolts? Plenty.

Specifically 8mm rusty ones from the 80s? Again, plenty.

john arran - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

> Why? theres loads of trad routes in the area that have a single bolt. It is E3 5c with the bolt and certainly not a top rope 5c!

There are big differences between areas, usually as much due to the nature of the rock as anything else, but there are relatively few places in Britain where it's considered ok nowadays to mix bolts and trad on the same route. Slate is a very notable exception. People will have their own ideas about why this often leads to poor routes in many areas but my thoughts are that it's because it's no longer a natural challenge, neither as a safe sport challenge on natural holds nor as a naturally-protected trad route, and if it's neither then it's effectively the first ascentionist who has 'created' the route (i.e. decided how challenging it will be to lead.)

In any case once a bolt looks to be getting old it changes the nature of the climb again and becomes much less of an attractive proposition for anyone except Russian Roulette enthusiasts.
bpmclimb - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:
> (In reply to ericinbristol)
>
> Yes thanks i know all that, i am pretty sure that i can get hold of the FA via Martin Crocker but i have no equipment or knowledge of placing bolts even if it was an option.

Bolting - you need the the knowhow, equipment and some money. I don't have those either! But if I did I would happily replace the bolt you're talking about (having made an attempt to track down the FA). The crag is mixed ethic, so I don't see any virtue in letting an E3 become an E5 just because one bit of metal is past its best.

Unless, of course, the idea is to have a no fixed gear policy for the whole crag, in which case we'd have to bolt-chop all the sports routes.
bpmclimb - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> [...]
>
> there are relatively few places in Britain where it's considered ok nowadays to mix bolts and trad on the same route. Slate is a very notable exception.


..... and limestone. Wintour's Leap springs to mind - it may be an exception but it's a pretty major crag with some major lines. Sport routes coexist with bolt-free lower-grade trad climbs, but as soon as you get into the Extremes you start seeing bolts on trad. I'm sure there's examples at Avon, too.

If we were to make the situation black and white at Wintour's we'd have to remove the bolts on Yesterday's Dreams (2 star E2 5c) and Strange Little Girl (3 star E4 6a), to name but two.
Warner - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:

I'm sorry I'm quite new to the trad ethic (I'm italian) but I was wondering why bother to find the FA to replace (not add) the old bolt which was probably, 30 years ago, as safe as the replacement. How can all this change the nature of the route?

deepstar - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
> [...]
>
>
>
> Unless, of course, the idea is to have a no fixed gear policy for the whole crag, in which case we'd have to bolt-chop all the sports routes.

Hello Brian, If you were going to have a no fixed gear policy at the crag what would you do with all the ironwork and concrete that is already there,lets face it the crag is not the prettiest place and apart from abseil training groups hardly ever gets visited.
cliff shasby - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front: Like someone else said if its not completely fooked use a screamer,i carry one for dodgy pegs...:-)
Billg - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:
>
>
What route are you referring to?
jkarran - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

I've inspected the drilled out remains of one a friend removed. Lots of tough metal left under the rust. That one was still very good IMO.

jk
bpmclimb - on 02 Sep 2012
In reply to warmauri:

You may be right - probably not necessary in this case. No harm, though, contacting FAs about all sorts of issues with their routes - it can be interesting :)
bpmclimb - on 02 Sep 2012
In reply to deepstar:

I know, it seems ridiculous. But ethics are ethics - we'd have no choice but to wheel in the heavy machinery and work on it until no trace of metal was left. We'd then have a fine collection of friable, north-facing, E6 solos.

Oh yes, and we'd ban the abseilers, too.
thomasadixon - on 02 Sep 2012
In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front:

Test it? Is this the bolt on Poudin Noir?
deepstar - on 02 Sep 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to deepstar)
>
> I know, it seems ridiculous. But ethics are ethics - we'd have no choice but to wheel in the heavy machinery and work on it until no trace of metal was left. We'd then have a fine collection of friable, north-facing, E6 solos.
>
> Oh yes, and we'd ban the abseilers, too.

I would love to see you abseiling down "The Big Bang Burger Bar" with a disc grinder and goggles,sparks flying!
Warner - on 02 Sep 2012
In reply to deepstar:
That`s proper gardening! I know you`d love it... :-)
Jonny2vests - on 03 Sep 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to Pylon King Liberation Front)
>
> I presume that these should not be trusted?
>
> In the climbing world, have any actually failed?

Wow. That's impressive, even for UKC.

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