/ First ascent citations

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
chawn_met - on 27 Oct 2012
Having hailed from Arizona, I may have a different view on this topic than many others on this forum. The issue is for FA's that require multiple attempts does the final, successful ascent party get all of the credit for the FA? There is a recent traversing route on the climbing database that required two attempts and different seconds were involved in each ascent. On the first attempt, the leader had to rest on his gear very close to the final moves but pulled all of the moves without resorting to direct aid other than resting on the rope. I think the first ascent citation should acknowledge all of the seconds on these attempts instead of only the second lucky enough to be on the blunt end of the rope when the final successful ascent was carried out. As this route traverses through the majority of its length, the second was taking a non-trivial risk in following it. Indeed, the second on the first attempt took a nasty swing. In addition, the second had no control over where the gear was placed to protect his fall and had no prior experience on any of the routes that were being linked by the traverse. (The leader had spent a great deal of time rehearsing the moves of the six routes that were linked by the route but not the traversing moves between the routes.) The second was taking as much risk as the leader on the majority of the route with no prior knowledge of the routes.

To acknowledge the efforts of both seconds, I have suggested an FA citation of this form:

FA 23 Oct 2012 [Leader], [second on successful attempt], [second on first attempt]

This is the format used in southern Arizona where multiple attempts on FA's are quite frequent due to the remote, multi-pitch nature of the climbing. I know of a citation with 8 different seconds listed.

The leader has chosen to remove the second on the first attempt from the citation.

Before anyone asks, I was not either of these seconds although I am friends with all parties involved in the FA.

What is the consensus here on this issue? Should the second on the first attempt appear in the citation?
Offwidth - on 27 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

Sometimes the person seconding the route on a traverse can face the adjectival crux. They certainly should be cited equally in such circumstances.
Bulls Crack - on 27 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

> What is the consensus here on this issue? Should the second on the first attempt appear in the citation?

Ask them? Otherwise not really fussed!
Harry Holmes - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met: Im not sure I really understand this. Are you saying that someone has dogged a route and this "attempt" should be credited aswell? Its not a First Ascent if its been dogged in my book regardless of how well the second has done
jimtitt - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:
Going to make guide books very thick if we include failed attempts and the seconds as well.
Doug on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to jimtitt: isn't this the sort of detail for the history section, or at most a comment "after several attempts with various partners"?
chawn_met - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to naffan: Both seconds dogged the route. The leader dogged the first the ascent and got the second ascent clean. Does only the leader get credit for the FA?
JLS on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

>"Should the second on the first attempt appear in the citation?"

No, if he was all that worried about getting his name in the guide he should have turned out for the second attempt. Hell mend him, I say!
jimtitt - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to Doug:
> (In reply to jimtitt) isn't this the sort of detail for the history section, or at most a comment "after several attempts with various partners"?

Well the first ascent was the first ascent, whether you dogged it, aided it or whatever. Whether a guide author would bother with the recording the first ascent eliminating the rest point is up to them and the local style.
Michael Gordon - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

Well that's just silly. Going by that argument you might as well record every person who's ever tried to lead something prior to the FA!
chawn_met - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon: well, all of the people who worked on the route contributed to the design and cleaning of the route. I'd you think of the FS as a work of art rather than the act of the first ascent it has a great deal more meaning in my opinion. The first party on the route generally has put the most creativity and vision by seeing the route to begin with.

Regarding the seconds on early attempts, they all contributed to the final success regardless of whether they dogged the route or not.
Nic on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

I'm going to start hanging out with Adam Ondra...the minute he has finished bolting his latest 9c project I'm going to jump on it, fall off 2' off the ground, and claim to be a party to the first ascent! Fame beckons!
Bulls Crack - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:

Are we talking about some huge multi-pitch remote route in the UK?!
jimtitt - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to chawn_met:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon) well, all of the people who worked on the route contributed to the design and cleaning of the route. I'd you think of the FS as a work of art rather than the act of the first ascent it has a great deal more meaning in my opinion. The first party on the route generally has put the most creativity and vision by seeing the route to begin with.
>
> Regarding the seconds on early attempts, they all contributed to the final success regardless of whether they dogged the route or not.

Well tradition says we donīt have a list of the hundreds of people who failed on Rays Roof for example. Nor do we list all those who contributed to the succesful first ascent, the list of porters and Sherpas for Everest would make a long book. The ones who first got from the bottom to the top get the credit, not the guy who worked the machine that made the rope that they used.
chawn_met - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to Nic:
> (In reply to chawn_met)
>
> I'm going to start hanging out with Adam Ondra...

Lol!

Okay. I see where this going, but I do think the person who hangs in there putting up with the ego (and in some cases painfully slow climbing) of those on lead deserve some credit. Where would the chap be without his faithful belayer.... soloing the route?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Bulls Crack - on 28 Oct 2012
In reply to jimtitt:

yes but many guides have recorded 1st ascents with aid and then said who freed it too.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.