/ Your purpose in life

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Tall Clare - on 05 Nov 2012
I woke up pondering this one this morning.

Do you think your life has a particular purpose? Does your work fulfil this purpose? Is it about perpetuation of the species for you? Or is it just about making the most of it all as we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

koalapie - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Jesus...
victim of mathematics - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to koalapie:
> (In reply to Tall Clare) Jesus...

Is your purpose in life?
Tall Clare - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to koalapie:

<cackles wildly>

Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: I think the three wonderful children I helped bring into life is my be all and end all of my contibution to life on earth, maybe the few new routes in climbing that I established may bring a few sections of humanity some pleasure, but in reality it's the kids that count.#
Also in my job I managed to disseminate knowledge/news that might just vaguely have touched someone and altered their perception for the better, though I have no way of knowing that.
Pursued by a bear - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Not certain. But as long as it's not this...

http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html

...then there's hope.

T.
David Riley - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Logic says that we are ridiculously unlikely winners of the infinity lottery. But the tickets were there and someone had to get them. Our prizes are 90 years **(conditions apply). We take them and go. There is no point.
It bothers me that we don't just have front row tickets. But actually tickets for the Royal Box. The best seats in the house at the best time in history. If it seems to good to be true. It is to good to be true.
Considering motive, we are the only ones to gain. If it was not a lottery then the suspects 'who done it' would be us, ourselves.
So ....
MG - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

Have you noticed it is getting closer?
toad - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: to serve as a bad example?
CurlyStevo - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to David Riley:
It does seem absolutely crazy to think that all this happened by chance and we got one shot at this and then it's all over. I struggle to comprehend it to be honest.
Rampikino - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Purpose in life and Meaning of life are two very different things.

One is to follow a biological path and to reach whatever end we reach.

The other is much more philosophical. (I'm with Nietzche)
browndog33 - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: My purpose I feel is to nuture my stepson in the most loving way I can (including tough love!) and to hopefully leave him with many many memories of ther good times we had together (PS I'm not about to pop my clogs or owt BTW!)
M
browndog33 - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to browndog33: ....And for my stepson to do the same with his kids when the time comes.
M.
pebbles - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: To serve the Dark Lord Zoth of course, and bring humanity to quiver in awed obeisance beneath his fearsome and dreadful heel. Whats yours?
Jackwd - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: There is non, life is just a fortunate coincidence of carbon chemistry. The one important thing I learnt at school from a poster after being kicked out of a lesson and stood in the corridor.
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: My sole purpose on this earth seems to be to provide safety, warmth, comfort, nourishment, care, attention, nurturing, more comfort

to my dog
In reply to Tall Clare: My purpose in life when being a considerate member of society is to be shafted by a selfish tw@t taking advantage of my good will.

jonnie3430 - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

> making the most of it all as we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

This one, have a GREAT time, it's all you've got...
bullybones - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
Point of neo-Darwinist order: perpetuation of the species is an old idea - it's the genes that drive the whole shebang. Species are just groups of individual gene-machines; combinations of successful genes that help keep up the good work of self-replication.

Not sure if that helps to answer the question, but it's clear that the point of tumbling into the yawning chasm is less of a certainty for a wombling gene than a wombling human.
Jon Stewart - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Unless you're religious or into some 'spiritual' thing (i.e. religious by another name), I don't see how you can believe in a purpose in life, except for the purpose you create for yourself.

It's definitely nice to feel a sense of purpose (or at least it's pretty bad to feel purposeless), so much so that I think it's fundamentally human. People get depressed and can't function without it - we class them as ill. Of course that's why religions exist, but we don't need them anymore because we can think rationally instead about things like the (sense of) purpose of life, and get much more satisfactory and useful answers.

Most people plump for having kids as a way of creating purpose - it's in tune with biological urges and I imagine is generally fairly effective. The other obvious thing to do is a useful job. I chose to retrain to do a useful job for exactly this reason, and it's working, a bit.

Other than that, there are some responsibilities that you just end up with rather than actively choosing - these bestow a sense of purpose to some degree, but not enough for most people I don't think (who tend to have families and jobs and stuff by choice). The upshot is that people generally end up with responsibilities, usually by choice (but with an underlying drive that itself is really biological rather than a choice) in order to give themselves a sense of purpose because otherwise they'd get depressed. Why are we built like that? It helps the genes to replicate.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Mike Stretford - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: I'm saving up for an old volacano somewhere in the middle of an ocean. Can't really go into the details at the moment, but I am looking at CVs, various roles.
Ridge - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> I woke up pondering this one this morning.
>
> Do you think your life has a particular purpose?

No.

> Does your work fulfil this purpose?

No.

> Is it about perpetuation of the species for you?

Even bigger no.

> Or is it just about making the most of it all as we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

Yes. (providing making the most of it involves minimal effort).

Dave Garnett - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to David Riley:

When my son was about seven he was listening in to an after-dinner conversation of this sort. Without any hesitation he informed us that the purpose of life was to be kind to other people and to have fun.

I've thought about this quite a lot, but have failed to improve on it as a one-sentence summary.
Dave Garnett - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to bullybones:

> Not sure if that helps to answer the question, but it's clear that the point of tumbling into the yawning chasm is less of a certainty for a wombling gene than a wombling human.

What percentage of your genome is womble then?
ti_pin_man - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: The film City Slickers hit the nail on the head... in it the old cowboy was asked the same question... he raised one finger and looking at it said, 'this'. Billy Crystal looks confused and asks, 'your finger'? Jack Palance says, 'nope, one thing... You just have to decide what your one thing is'. (paraphrased)

</troll thread closed>
Kemics - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

The being used for a purpose
Recognized by yourself as a mighty one.
The being a force of nature
Instead of a feverish, selfish
Little clod of ailments and grievances
Complaining that the world will not
Devote itself to making you happy.
I am of the opinion that my life
Belongs to the whole community
And as long as I live,
It is my privilege to do for it
Whatever I can.
I want to be thoroughly
Used up when I die,
For the harder I work the more I live.
I rejoice in life for its own sake.
Life is no brief candle to me.
It is a sort of splendid torch
Which I've got hold of
For the moment
And I want to make it burn
As brightly as possible before
Handing it on to future generations.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Kemics: Hmmm, I wonder what really happens when you die, is it just like being asleep with no dreams except that you don't wake up, it would be nice to think it's as simple as that and then we could all stop worrying about it.
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Given that I have no kids and have no intention of having kids - mine or someone else's - this is something I often muse on. I have come to the conclusion that because I'm not procreating I am a waste of space.
Dave Garnett - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Kemics) Hmmm, I wonder what really happens when you die, is it just like being asleep with no dreams except that you don't wake up, it would be nice to think it's as simple as that and then we could all stop worrying about it.

It is. Stop worrying about it.
David Riley - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

Oh Ava. That's so not true !

You can't waste space, it's infinite.
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to David Riley:

How terribly kind. I feel so much better now
Tall Clare - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

I think I got to that point too. I was also musing on 'callings' and came to the conclusion that I'm just taking up oxygen others could benefit from. Hmm.
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

My calling is to minister to cranky ailing cats and gradually become poor and wee-smelling
Tall Clare - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

I've got a head start on all of that
In reply to Ava Adore: You will become wee-smelling???????

Errrr............. how to put this nicely...........
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Indeed. You have twice the number. And are incorporating poo-smelling into the equation. I doff my furry hat to you, lady.
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

OK, OK, become MORE wee-smelling
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: You're not a waste of space if you "pretend" to procreate. If you act like a nun, then I agree...a waste of space ;-)

Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Game of Conkers:

I have been known to rehearse procreation, yes ;-)
Chris Harris - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Kemics) Hmmm, I wonder what really happens when you die, is it just like being asleep with no dreams except that you don't wake up, it would be nice to think it's as simple as that and then we could all stop worrying about it.

No. You've been naughty, so you are destined to spend all eternity top roping in the Peaks with Mrs Thatcher.


Darren Jackson - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

I like to think that I bring a holistic and synergistic approach to rationalising human relationships with a view to championing win-win scenarios and fostering a collaborative environment for mutual on-ramping in the interest of the common good. Going forward, I intend to upscale my efforts and streamline the process to maximise efficiency gains.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> Given that I have no kids and have no intention of having kids - mine or someone else's - this is something I often muse on. I have come to the conclusion that because I'm not procreating I am a waste of space.

Thats a shame Ava, you would make a lovely mother
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:


Ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa . I love your sense of humour, Al. X
Kemics - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Kemics) Hmmm, I wonder what really happens when you die, is it just like being asleep with no dreams except that you don't wake up, it would be nice to think it's as simple as that and then we could all stop worrying about it.


I hope so, maybe something continues, but it's so ephemeral that the idea's of what I consider 'me' couldn't possibly go with it. So from conciousness existence.

One more quote:

When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.
SCrossley on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> I woke up this morning.
>
>

Thats all you need to know, why do you insist on complicating things

puppythedog on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: My life does not have any particular purpose in so far as if I didn't exist the world would be no better or worse off of significantly different. I have worked to give purpose to my life through my choice of career and relationships.
We live we die, there is no greater meaning but it does not mean that we cannot find meaning for ourselves. Death is just the end as far as I can guess.
Jiduvah - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

I always come across 2 trains of thought with this question. The first is more philisophical. "Why are we here as a race?" And in my experience humans often ask this question. For me it seems such an arogant perspective. Why must we have a purpose? Is there anything to suggest that we have one? It seems we confuse having a conciousness with importance or significance. Maybe this view is influenced by some religions. Maybe that there is something higher that has given us a reason. However I haven't found a good argument to support this idea, so I beleive there there is aboslutely not reason for me being here.


That sort of brings me to my second view of the question which is on more of a personnal level. It makes me think the opposite of your question. If there is no ultimate purpose to live then why do it? In my case, I want to expereince things while I can, as I don't think I will have second life. I want to see as much as the universe has to offer or else its just a waste of an incredible opportunity. For me the thought that I am as insigificant as a stone in the street gives me a feeling of freedom.
Tall Clare - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:

It's a question of biology - I'm female, therefore I complicate things
deepsoup - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
> [...]
>
> Thats all you need to know, why do you insist on complicating things

Like! :O)
hooter - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

For me it's simple; get to a ripe old age and not have too many 'i wish i had...' sentiments.

Of course, not having too many 'i wish i hadn't..' sentiments is also desirable. That said you can always blame the booze.
Ridge - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> I am of the opinion that my life
> Belongs to the whole community
> And as long as I live,
> It is my privilege to do for it
> Whatever I can.
> I want to be thoroughly
> Used up when I die,
> For the harder I work the more I live.

I'm tired just reading that. Couldn't I just have a cuppa and a slice of cake?
bullybones - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> What percentage of your genome is womble then?
I don't have a Great Uncle Bulgaria, but if I did it might be 12.5%
On the other hand, my genome is doing its best to make good use of bad rubbish...so maybe 100%

Cthulhu on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
>
> Or is it just about making the most of it all as we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

This. Although, as I have perpetuated the species, my purpose now is to shape that young being into as decent, compassionate, confident and capable a person as I can - to nurture a sense of curiosity and exploration, and to equip her with the means to satisfy that curiosity.

If I can look back and see that that's what she's become, I'll die a very happy man.
winhill - on 05 Nov 2012
birdie num num - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
The Num Num's purpose in life has always been to liberally spread their seed far and wide in a kind of spraying action. Most UCKers would probably find, rooting around in their genes, the unmistakeable code of the Num Nums.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: I was being serious
Timmd on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> It is. Stop worrying about it.

Experiencing something 'spooky' had me wondering for a bit, i've decided quantum physics and there being a multiverse has something to do with ghosts as we call them, and have gone back to not worrying about it.

I'm going to haunt people who flytip in the countryside if I become a ghost, scare them into clearing up.

OP:As well as enjoying myself, I feel like i'm here to be helpfull or usefull somehow, and like I should probably be nice to people while i'm at it, one out of the two isn't bad, and both is pretty good. Still figuring out how i'd like to be helpfull/usefull though.
Yanis Nayu - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Embarrassing my daughter.
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

Then I rescind that comment and say that I like your optimism
Dave B on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Papillon:

Do you supply the orange jumpsuits?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Phase - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: this has me thinking. I really dont know. is trying to be a good person enough!?!?!....hmmmmmmmmmmm
stroppygob - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:


Basil Fawlty: [to himself] Ah, that's true. That was a warning all right, I guess? Should have spotted that, shouldn't I? Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot.
Sybil Fawlty: [returning] Basil.
Basil Fawlty: [to himself] Back to the world of dreams.
Mooncat - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Not sure but I think it's something to do with giving car and motorbike dealers all my money.
I like climbing - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
My purpose is to enjoy life as much as possible. And I do. My work is great too. I'm also not particularly interested in what happens after I've gone - out of my control......

Someone mused about death later in the thread.
Death will be just like turning off a light switch - I won't function in any way. There's no reason to believe in any after life - that's impossible and I don't have a problem with that. Death will be the last thing of interest that happens to me.
Simon - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:


...at the moment it seems to be amass as many guitars as humanly possible but I'm sure that I have some better traits than to subject my fellow humans to the resulting caterwaul created...

It's an interesting question & one that we have been discussing moreover about legacy & what we do & contribute to the greater good?

If I write a book, do a new climb, bring a new life into the world have I done something useful?... its all in the perception of the mind innit? ;0) si
Ben Sharp - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: A quick glance around at others might lead one to assume that the purpose of life is to get money and buy stuff, although no one seems to have suggested this.

More basil fawlty quote, he seems to have things sussed:
Polly - well what's the point in being alive?
Basil - Beats me, we're stuck with it I suppose
...
OReily- just remember there's always someone worse off than yoruself
Basil - well i'd like to meet him, i could do with a laugh
cb294 - on 06 Nov 2012
If I read the words "perpetuation of the species" once more I will throw up all over the internet.

We are disposable, mobile carriers of our individual genomes. The purpose of every living being is to carry this genetic information through time.


CB
teflonpete - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> I woke up pondering this one this morning.
>
> Do you think your life has a particular purpose?

No

Does your work fulfil this purpose?

Hahahaha!

Is it about perpetuation of the species for you?

Kind of, at least for the next few years until the kids reach adulthood.

Or is it just about making the most of it all as we womble along towards the yawning chasm...?

Pretty much. I intend to sell my house, give the kids half the proceeds and spend the rest of my life being an aimless bum doing whatever I fancy from day to day once the kids are grown up.

I don't believe in grand design or anything, more that life is a biological and evolutionary accident. We are little more than an insignificant sneeze in the life of the planet, let alone the universe.

Ava Adore - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to teflonpete:

Ooh if I follow your life plan that means I get to keep ALL the proceeds of my house and can bum around for even longer than you. Ace.
SCrossley on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
Are you an Upanishad http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nq7ct
"Yet the Upanishads go beyond incantations performed during sacrifices, and ask profound questions about human existence and man's place in the cosmos."

bet you`ve never been asked that before
katherinesydney - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to David Riley)
>
> When my son was about seven he was listening in to an after-dinner conversation of this sort. Without any hesitation he informed us that the purpose of life was to be kind to other people and to have fun.
>
> I've thought about this quite a lot, but have failed to improve on it as a one-sentence summary.

My thoughts exactly. Our little brains are motivated by pleasure & reward and we're social creatures. Have fun, be kind to other people, and the human community will hold together sufficiently that enough people have kids and the species survives. ta-da
Steve John B - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to cb294:

Perpetuation of the species.

Nah, I'm with Basil Fawlty on this (see quotes above)
Gordon Stainforth - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

For me (it's bleeding obvious that) the purpose of life is to be creative, in the broadest sense, i.e. to add something of value to the world, however small, that lasts after our death for many years, maybe hundreds of years. In other words, the purpose of life is not mere procreation because we can of course beget megalomaniac monsters - though, if we produce a child who becomes an exceptional creative person, I suppose that counts as being creative.

I mean 'creative' in a very broad sense, much broader than say just scientific or artistic creation. For example, putting up a rock climb is certainly creative in my sense; and even if you leave nothing behind except a kind of 'legend', i.e that one was such a good person, or such a funny person etc. that people keep on telling stories about you long after you are dead, then that is being creative too.

I see this 'meaning' as deriving from a larger system that fills the whole universe, i.e the cosmos itself as being inherently creative. (I'm not talking about 'God' BTW)
Steve John B - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Steve John B: Actually, I think the Dalai Lama said it better: "If you contribute to other people's happiness, you will find the true meaning of life".

Which is sort of a shorter way of saying what you just said, Gordon!
Mark Edwards - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

To act as a warning to others.
Gordon Stainforth - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to Steve John B) Actually, I think the Dalai Lama said it better: "If you contribute to other people's happiness, you will find the true meaning of life".
>
> Which is sort of a shorter way of saying what you just said, Gordon!

I'm not sure that 'happiness' is quite broad enough, because a scientist adds to understanding of the world (that does not necessarily lead to technologies that increase happiness). I.e. I think that knowledge for its own sake has value. Again a Shakespearean tragedy may not bring happiness so much as help us understand better the human condition, or even provide catharsis.

anonymouse - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> I woke up pondering this one this morning.

Some mormon's stopped a chap who was walking just ahead of me and asked him if he had a purpose in life.

He said, I'm going to the shops.
Tiggs on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Out of the mouths of babes (as they say). Wise words from one so young - its the living happily that's important not the achieving.
Kimono - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
this reminds me of a nice quote from Alan Watts:

“The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.”

Which, for me, comes back to the power of now, the power of being alive in the present and trying to ignore a lot of the bullshit that the mind throws up.

easier said than done...
Kimono - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to anonymouse:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
> [...]
>
> Some mormon's stopped a chap who was walking just ahead of me and asked him if he had a purpose in life.
>
> He said, I'm going to the shops.

In one sense this is the best answer of all and ties in with what i said above. The point of life is to just go to the shops or wahtever else we are doing...not go to the shops whilst thinking/worrying/planning/getting excited about what comes after...just being aware of whatever we are doing right now.

There is a lovely story of the Buddha who was once asked what he and his disciples practised.
'We sit, we walk, and we eat' was the reply.
But everyone does that said the questioner.
'Ah' said the Buddha, 'the difference is that when we sit, we know that we are sitting, when we walk we know that we are walking and when we eat we know that too.'


ads.ukclimbing.com
Gordon Stainforth - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tiggs:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
>
> Out of the mouths of babes (as they say). Wise words from one so young - its the living happily that's important not the achieving.

One of the wisest men who ever lived, Aristotle, discussed the notion of happiness at great length in the Nicomachean Ethics. His term for it, eudaemonia, actually translates better as 'good life', which has nothing to do with the modern (or Buddhist) notion of being happy in the moment, but being happy through time, through a whole life. Which is something much deeper altogether. Nothing will persuade me that life isn't about 'achieving', that is to say: trying as far as possible to fulfil one's true potential (= being true to oneself). I'm not of course talking about material success at all. One of the saddest things about life it that the world is full of under-achievers, people who have been privileged enough to have the opportunities and wherewithal, have done nothing with it, and have thereby let themselves down very badly.
Kimono - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
then you dont really understand Buddhism i would say Gordon
SARS on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

To be the best I can, which in practice means doing everything as well as I can given my limited resources.

And to try and defy aging as long as possible.

Gordon Stainforth - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to kieran b:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> then you dont really understand Buddhism i would say Gordon

I don't. Like a lot of people I was very impressed by it when I was younger i.e. in my 30s, but as the years have passed I have become less and less enchanted by it. Apart from anything else it seems like a recipe for disaster, leaving them defenceless against nasty people e.g the Maoists in Nepal, the Chinese in Tibet. Flopping sideways lets you be run over by tanks.

I'm much more impressed by the early Hindu religion (i.e pre caste system), and the even earlier Bon 'religion'. A much fuller, more rounded, more realistic view of life.

Gordon Stainforth - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to kieran b:

PS to last. There are a lot of things about Eastern culture and religion that are impressive, but so to there is about the best aspects of Western culture and Christian values. I am one of those who thinks the solution is a kind of balance between the two.
John Rushby - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

To write objectionable tripe on your Facebook page to annoy you .

and bring about world peace, but mostly the former.
Kimono - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Im not really 'impressed' by any religions. I think that Buddhism is certainly based upon the 'truth' as are most religions, but they are all in the end, just systems, groups or whatever and as such are often far removed from the initial insights that founded them.

As fro presence...well, it doesnt deny being happy and fulfilled over time, in fact it is the ability to be completely present that is the key to long-lasting happiness...not just a fleeting sense of pleasure that our society is often looking for.

Gordon Stainforth - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to kieran b:

But would it not be right to say that the notion of progress, in any other sense than spiritual (e.g material, social, scientific etc), is alien to Buddhism?
Steve John B - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> I'm not sure that 'happiness' is quite broad enough, because a scientist adds to understanding of the world (that does not necessarily lead to technologies that increase happiness). I.e. I think that knowledge for its own sake has value. Again a Shakespearean tragedy may not bring happiness so much as help us understand better the human condition, or even provide catharsis.

Might fit with the "eudaemonia" definition of happiness though? "A better understanding of the human condition" would increase your whole-life happiness...
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Purpose:

1) The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.

2) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength, and your neighbour as yourself.

Same thing really.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

My purpose in life is fast becoming 'not to read' Mountain Spirits posts and instead get out of the house and walk the dog. I can't seem to help myself though. What's wrong with me? Please help.
Kimono - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to kieran b)
>
> But would it not be right to say that the notion of progress, in any other sense than spiritual (e.g material, social, scientific etc), is alien to Buddhism?

Well, Buddhism is a broad church, so to speak, so it is hard to generalise but i dont see any issue with progress...certainly not social progress which is of course a good thing.
I do know that the DL is very into science for example.
johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to Tall Clare:

To find and maintain inner peace x
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to johnj:

In that csae I strongly urge you 'not' to read Mountain Spirits posts.
dale1968 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: to be the biggest pain in the a***e
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to dale1968:

Pssst... you can say "arse". UKC doesn't think that's rude .
dale1968 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: truly?
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to dale1968: Yes. It's things like f*ck-stick and fart-knuckle that you need to avoid.
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

and tw*t
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74: I knew it!
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johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to Ava Adore:

UKC lets you say what ever you want if you speak all slow and northern, for example F U C K I N G potatoes W A N K I N G all over the cheese has a certain va te faire foutre about it.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to johnj: That's just crude. Potatoes don't f*cking wank!
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

On the subject of potatoes and wanking, the urban myth round here a few years ago was that a McDonalds employee was fired for adding dodgy substances to the mayonnaise.
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

I think I've found my purpose in life. Posting dirty talk on forums.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: Do you mean man cream? If so that's nasty. Reminds me of the Adam and Joe sketch of Colin Farrel. That was a hoot, so it was.
johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to Ava Adore:

That would make a good thread, whats the dirtiest you ever did get

I think the dirtiest i ever got was after crawling down the back of a rolls royce turbo diesel engine just down the way from death valley.
dale1968 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74: just listened too it, quite a bit of profanity
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to dale1968: A winner nonetheless. Have you seen the Irish traveller fight talk on youtube? More irish quality there..
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to JH74)
>
> On the subject of potatoes and wanking, the urban myth round here a few years ago was that a McDonalds employee was fired for adding dodgy substances to the mayonnaise.


Let's face it, this is probably the only way of making a McDonalds product genuinely nutritious.
johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to Tim Chappell:

A fine seasonal headline, girl gets pregnant after big mac and fries to go.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to johnj: That would depend on what she did with the fries one could assume.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74: I apologise for my part in substantially lowering the tone of this thread by the way.
johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to JH74:

yes looks like we've gone and pissed on our chips with this one ;=)
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to johnj:


Eh, mister, whut vinegar did ye put with thems, like?
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

I don't
Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012

Still no clearer. More pondering required (if such a thing were possible).
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to dale1968)

: to be the biggest pain in the a***e
>
> Pssst... you can say "arse". UKC doesn't think that's rude .

but arse would be a**e, maybe a***e is so rude that it would be blocked...

;-D

gregor
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Killin stuff.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Try posting rude words to see if they get automatically censored. It's more fun than it may appear at first.
Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

My favourite rude word doesn't get censored: cock.
ads.ukclimbing.com
johnj on 09 Nov 2012 - fibre.melett.com
In reply to Tim Chappell:
> (In reply to johnj)
>
>
> Eh, mister, whut vinegar did ye put with thems, like?

And there you have it one of the great mysteries of modern times solved quietly on a friday afternoon, he was never the messiah virgin birth conceived by god, it was just that one of the Sheppard boys had cracked one off into Mary's olive oil.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

I did and it didnt let me post.

I got this message...Your Message contains words that are considered unsuitable for this forum.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Try another. There are many. Boob, for example.
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74: Boob's all good see!
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Naughty naughty Baker <chortles>

knob

Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

it's at times like this you realise that the average mental age of a climber is really very VERY low
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I bet you tried the C word. I did earlier and got a similar message. More subtlety required f*ck-stick!
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> Naughty naughty Baker <chortles>
>
> knob
>
>

Who you calling knob? pissflaps! ;)


TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) I bet you tried the C word. I did earlier and got a similar message. More subtlety required f*ck-stick!

Ah, I see how to play the game now, f*ckmonkey!

JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Shartmonkey.
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Not calling you a knob...just interjecting a little rudity
mkean - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
I don't have a porpoise.
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

That would have to be F U C K monkey
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> Not calling you a knob...just interjecting a little rudity

Me too, fannybatter, this is such great therapy.

JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: Arsecandle.
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

willynose
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
> I don't have a porpoise.

Then get one then and stop complaining <other water-inhabiting mammals are available>

jonnie3430 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:
> (In reply to JH74) Boob's all good see!

There is a certain town surrounded by Grimsby, Doncaster and Hull that is censored every time. I think it quite sad, I mean what have they done to UKC (or does Norrie live there?)
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: Rather be that than an arse candle. Poomunch.
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TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to JH74)
> [...]
>
> There is a certain town surrounded by Grimsby, Doncaster and Hull that is censored every time. I think it quite sad, I mean what have they done to UKC (or does Norrie live there?)

Why, what's wrong with Goole?

jonnie3430 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> Why, what's wrong with Goole?

I would have mentioned York if it was Goole...
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to JH74:

Yeah. Sure.

Buttock breath.
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
pissflaps! ;)


That's not rude either. Pissflaps Missouri is a delightful little town. Or so I hear.

Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Not forgetting that famous pond, Derwentw*ter
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell:

I so want to search on Google to see if that's a real place but can't begin to imagine what work security bots would make of it
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell: There's a place in switzy called the 'c' word
Tim Chappell - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:


Rock solid Republican, of course, and you need to take a book to have something to do while they're finishing their sentences, but still, a lovely place. Great apple pie at the monthly Methodist prayer breakfasts, and you should see the hog roasts.
jonnie3430 - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

In the lakes too! Why would UKC censor it?
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell:

I'm liking the sound of that place
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I know. Tw*ts ;-)
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to JH74)
>
> My favourite rude word doesn't get censored: cock.


are you james may in disguise....?

;-)

gregor
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

<looks around>

where's everyone gone...?

Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

<does a double take after walking past the window>

Oh.

Hello.

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

i'm suggesting a sweepstake on how long before the mods notice that this thread has taken an interesting turn recently and pull it....

in the meantime, i remember at uni people applying to do a placement at the wankee colliery in s africa...
Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Oi! This is my serious thread, people! It is to be steered gently back on course, please.

<looks stern>
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

If we quickly throw them off the scent by talking about porpoises, they'll never spot it.

Mwhahahaaa.

Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

<hangs head>

Sorry Miss TC.

Let it be known that I am willing to talk porpoises.
mkean - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
So can I have a porpoise? I'll even take an anglepoise if the budget won't stretch to a porpoise.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

sorry...

<shuffles uncomfortably and looks at feet>

;-)

ads.ukclimbing.com
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to mkean:

Yes you may. But only a small one as you're clearly inexperienced in the craft of porpoising.
mkean - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
I'd actually rather have an otter as they take up less space and are cuter.
In reply to Tall Clare: Narwhals!
Ava Adore - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to mkean:

I always like it a little 'otter.

Dam, I'm funny... ;-)
mkean - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
What is the point of a Narwahl? I mean it is just a pre-harpooned whale, you would get the kids a roadkill cat for a pet would you?
JH74 - on 09 Nov 2012
Good to see you're all getting this thread right back on track.
lithos on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

Dam ?? Thats beaver you're thinking of
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
> What is the point of a Narwahl? I mean it is just a pre-harpooned whale, you would get the kids a roadkill cat for a pet would you?

Narwhals are very useful. If you are missing a safety pin for a nappy - narwhal!

Need something to pin a note on a board - narwhal!

Cat skewer? - narwhal!

Roadkill cat? Wouldn't have to clean up poop!
ripper - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Tall Clare) I think the three wonderful children I helped bring into life is my be all and end all of my contibution to life on earth, maybe the few new routes in climbing that I established may bring a few sections of humanity some pleasure, but in reality it's the kids that count.#
> Also in my job I managed to disseminate knowledge/news that might just vaguely have touched someone and altered their perception for the better, though I have no way of knowing that.

Pretty much this for me too - although I've only brought the one child into life, and been a large part of the raising of two others who were already on the planet - and the dissemination of news thing is over for me now, I'm now just disseminating propaganda to try and encourage people to buy one brand of a certain product over another.
Additionally though, I do like to think that I've tried to support causes which work to improve the lot of the majority class of humanity, and to oppose ones that do the opposite. And to have as much of a giggle as reasonably possible too of course.
At the end of the day we die and that's it - there's no afterlife except the echo we leave behind in the lives of others, the things we do that affect the lives of those we leave behind after we're gone.

Steve John B - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
> What is the point of a Narwahl?

They've always got the horn, got to count for something.

I nearly spelt count wrong there... Bollocking unclef*ckers
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ripper:

+1

the precise numbers of children might be different in my case, but i agree with the sentiments entirely,

(doing our best to get the thread back on track clare...!)


cheers
gregor
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Steve John B:

<nearly sprays drink across keyboard laughing>

Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ripper:

Hmm... perhaps there's something in that. I think maybe it's somewhere between the creative endeavour that Gordon mentions, and the children thing. Maybe. Or perhaps there's something more - helping others, making a difference, not being a parasite, that sort of thing.

I feel I should apologise for derailing my own thread... :-/
ripper - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: elegantly re-railed ;-)

and I hope I didn't overstate the 'doing good' thing - the tiny amounts of good I've done are almost certainly too insignificant to ever measure. as for creative endeavour, well there is that rather-less-than-half-finished novel...
Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ripper:

It's something that does weigh heavily on my mind (hence the thread!) - that as a creative sort I'm something of a parasite, not particularly useful to others, and I don't have kids, so that's out too.
ripper - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: is it possible to be a parasite of creativity? do you mean you enjoy the creative things created by others? but that's not parasitic because you don't use them up just by appreciating them, they're still there for others to enjoy. And in fact if it wasn't for the audience of consumers of creativity, like you, there'd be no reason for those works to be created... does that make sense? also, I always like to think the little things that might seem insignifcant at the time can leave an echo of you behind, which I suppose is a form of purpose to life - y'know, like an observation or expression of opinion that provokes someone into thinking about a subject in a new and different way? a bit like a butterfly beating its wing in america and a building falling down in china, small things can have big repercussions... jeez i'm starting to sound like some effin new-age guru! slap me?
owlart - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: I'm sure lots of folk have found you to be particularly useful! Alex wouldn't have got his book finished if it wasn't for you, for example.

I'm also in the 'not going to have kids' camp, although that's more a resigned to fate than a positive choice here. You are, however, contributing positively to the upbringing of Mr TC's kids, I'm sure, which means you're making a difference in the world!
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

i've got a step daughter, now 16, its only now she's an adult i'm starting to realise the influence i've had on bringing her up. you don't need to have children of your own to contribute to shaping the next generation

we all influence those around us, in ways we may not even realise, and their world would be a poorer place were we not in it

time to watch "its a wonderful life"...?

best wishes

gregor
owlart - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
> we all influence those around us, in ways we may not even realise, and their world would be a poorer place were we not in it

This is very true. At the end of my PGCE we went out for a drink, and one of the girls on my course came up and said "If it wasn't for you I don't think I'd have made it through this course", and yet I didn't think I'd really done anything out of the ordinary, and didn't recall even having had that many conversations with her!
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Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Good point - my stepdad's definitely shaped me.
Tall Clare - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ripper:

No, sorry, by the reference to creativity I meant that I'm a creative myself, a writer and a photographer (and all the other creative bits like sewing and painting and that). It all feels a little... indulgent, sometimes.
ripper - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to ripper)
>
> It all feels a little... indulgent, sometimes.

not at all! so you're leaving behind bits of creativity that will almost certainly continue to resonate - quite apart from the direct effects that I'm sure you have on all those who know you
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ripper:

+1 to this.

i do a job that is traditionally thought of being more 'useful' to society, but i'm under no illusion that my skills would be of no use whatsoever in anything other than a rich, westernised society

i am an indulgence that our society can afford and needs due to the way it has developed over the last century

very few of us do jobs that really, really matter other than as part of our comfortable post industrial existence, and even fewer make cultural contributions that resonate across time

but all of us matter to those close to us, and as owlart said, we touch other people as we go about our business in ways we may not be aware of.

thats all starting to sound a bit pious of me, but dont judge yourself harshly, i think you are likely to be no more or less indulgent than all of us who have the privilege to post on here...

best wishes

gregor
subalpine - on 09 Nov 2012
Christheclimber - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

To retire sane
anonymouse - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
Man is dear to man
The poorest poor long for some moments in their weary lives
when they can know and feel that they have been themselves
the fathers and the dealers out of some small blessing
have been kind to such as needed kindness
for the single cause that we have, all of us, one common heart.
Orgsm on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

In pondering this you may wish to think of your great great grand parents and what you know of them. What truly will you leave behind beyond a generation or two?
Stanners - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:
milky bar yoghurts
AlisonSmiles - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

In a moment of navel gazing I started free writing about this the other day. My purpose apparently is to enter the bed of a stranger as milk sweetens the bitterness of coffee, to breath moisture onto tarnished glass, to see, to know, to love, to give, to succor the silence and stroke the soft, to see the start but never the ending, to signal spring in high up hillsides but never to swim in the sea.

Good grief, and it's been a dry November ...
Mooncat - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to AlisonSmiles:

Wow
risby - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to kieran b:
> There is a lovely story of the Buddha who was once asked what he and his disciples practised.
> 'We sit, we walk, and we eat' was the reply.
> But everyone does that said the questioner.
> 'Ah' said the Buddha, 'the difference is that when we sit, we know that we are sitting, when we walk we know that we are walking and when we eat we know that too.'

lovely story? really? smart-arse response more like. bloody smug buddhists!
tlm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Does anything else beside humans require a purpose?

What is the difference between my purpose and the purpose of a chimp, or a mouse, or an amoeba, or a cabbage, or a stone, or an oxygen molecule?
ripper - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to tlm: self-consciousness innit. the fact that we can ponder over what ours is, inevitably leads to thinking we need one
Timmd on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to kieran b)
>
> But would it not be right to say that the notion of progress, in any other sense than spiritual (e.g material, social, scientific etc), is alien to Buddhism?

It wouldn't be right I think, it's part of the noble eight fold path to have a career which benefits society or one's community.

Can only ever remember right* thought, right action, right speach and right career though, I forget the other four, but i'm a rubbish Buddhist anyway.

*Right can also be/mean harmonious which is perhaps more apt.
ollieollie - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: to drink beer
Wonko The Sane on 12 Nov 2012 - customer18941.107.wv.cust.t-mobile.co.uk
In reply to Tall Clare:

I see life as a smorgasbord.
I don't believe in any higher meanings, I think you're here, then you die.

The trick is to scoff up as much of the smorgasbord as you can get your mits on.

Fairly though, it makes sense not to snatch from other people, after all, you wouldn't want them to snatch from you. And being courteous and offering a plate to someone else every now and then doesn't hurt, and who knows, they may offer you a plate you haven't tried in return.

I have picked up and put down many hobbies in my life because I have no burning desire to be the world's best at anything....... just enjoy myself trying out different dishes.
Of course, you wind up with some favourites which you go back to.


Oh, and of course, you have to pay for this buffet, so sometimes you just have to get your head down and work if you want to be able to afford a blow out.
Jamming Dodger on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: Right now, learning to play Chopin's Nocturne Op9 No2. In about ten years it might sound ok.
Id also like to learn Fantaisie Impromptu Op66 which actually brings a tear to my eye.
And other stuff, but im happy tinkering with this for now.

risby - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> Can only ever remember right* thought, right action, right speach and right career though, I forget the other four, but i'm a rubbish Buddhist anyway.

Right spelling wasn't in there, was it? (speech not speach despite speak)
Timmd on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to risby: Very good. ()

I didn't think it looked right, I was addled yesterday.
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Kimono - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to risby:
> (In reply to kieran b)
> [...]
>
> lovely story? really? smart-arse response more like. bloody smug buddhists!

Smart-arse Buddha eh? Well, i guess that's one way to describe him...

...but i suspect it says more about you than him

iksander on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: keeping fit on my hedonic treadmill
subalpine - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to risby: in Hindiusm there are four aims:

Dharma: "(religious, social and/or moral) righteousness, both spiritual and ritual"
Artha: "(material and/or financial) prosperity as well as pursuit of meaning"
Kama: "(sexual) pleasure "
Moksa: "(spiritual) liberation; or renunciation as well as detachment"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puru%E1%B9%A3%C4%81rtha
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to iksander:
> (In reply to Tall Clare) keeping fit on my

'Hedonic treadmill'? An oxymoron if I ever heard one.

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