/ The greatest sporting fraud

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Minneconjou Sioux - on 08 Nov 2012

I we accept Lance Armstrong's guilt, this may be one of the greatest sporting frauds of all time both financially and in the number of people fooled.

But, what if this isn't the end of it? What is the next discovery that will trump Armstrong's fall from grace?

The discovery that the William's sisters are really men?



idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

The Jamaican sprint team are running times I didn't think I'd see for another 1/4 to 1/2 a century. I really believe its all kosher but it's not out of the realms of possibility.

I thought athletics was relatively hot at catching cheats till the Balco scandal hit...so its possible.
idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I do think we've only just seen the start of betting fraud revelations in cricket... there is more to come
ben b - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux: Isn't it something about a speed ascent of Denali? <joke>

b
Dave Kerr - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

Calling Formula 1 a sport.
Dave 88 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

I can't believe Ondra is still managing to blag that he's human.
Pero - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux: If you look at the world records for women's athletics, they are still dominated by performances from the 80's: mainly by Eastern Europeans, but also Flo Jo's sprint records. In fact, in many events women today can get nowhere near these records. So, the whole of 70's and 80's women's athletics, was one massive drug-fuelled fraud.

It's an interesting question why the same is not true of the men's events, where most records are more recent. It's unlikely that women have stopped taking drugs, whereas men still do and find a way round drug testing. So, the only conclusion is that it doesn't make so much difference in the men's events.





Rigid Raider - on 12 Nov 2012
I'm no Armstrong supporter, I hate all drugs cheats but consider this... if everybody was cheating yet Armstrong was still faster, surely that makes him a prodigious athlete? I don't think anybody would dispute his ability as a bike handler or tactician.

Interestingly I heard a sports scientist say on R4 recently that for 15 years cyclists have been turning unbelievable performances but in the last two years wattages and times for the major climbs have returned to merely beleivable. That gives me hope.
PeterM - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
>
> one of the greatest sporting frauds of all time both financially and in the number of people fooled.


- that would be soccer and it's ongoing

Tall Clare - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

As fascinating stories go, I'd like to nominate Donald Crowhurst's attempts to convince people back home that he was managing to sail round the world, when in actual fact he was losing his marbles somewhere far off the coast of Brazil.
The New NickB - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Pero:

The type of drugs used in the 70s and 80s had more effect on women. That isn't necessarily the case now with more sophisticated drugs, but I do think that athletics is reasonably clean these days.

The last of the East German records went at the Olympic (W 4x100m). They are creeping slowly towards Flo Jo's 10.49s, but I don't think anyone really doubts she was full of drugs. She wasn't the only one, but I am not going to get the thread deleted by naming names.
The New NickB - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

Certainly scores high when it comes to desperation and self delusion. Very sad tale.
Tall Clare - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to The New NickB:

Complete aside (but it does relate to your book thread), and I know it's not about climbing, but have you read A Voyage for Madmen by Peter Nicholls, about the 1968 round the world yacht race? If not, I'd recommend it.
The New NickB - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:

I don't think we can doubt that Armstrong was an amazing athlete, but not everyone was cheating, just the ones making all the money. He robbed many great athletes of their livelihoods.
The New NickB - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare:

I have read a couple of accounts, one in Bonington's Quest for Adventure and one somewhere else, maybe Knox-Johnson's book. I will keep an eye out.
Daithi O Murchu - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
>
> I we accept Lance Armstrong's guilt, this may be one of the greatest sporting frauds of all time both financially and in the number of people fooled.
>
> But, what if this isn't the end of it? What is the next discovery that will trump Armstrong's fall from grace?
>
> The discovery that the William's sisters are really men?

That Mo realy is a robot sent back from the future to quash a future human uprising, silly droid he nearly gave the game away whilst adjusting his antenna

That jocky wilson wore a fat suit
Double Knee Bar - on 12 Nov 2012
No mention of Rich Simpson yet?
Rob Exile Ward on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Tall Clare: You're not wrong. And the irony that he might even have got away with it if it hadn't looked like he was going to 'win' and draw so much attention to himself.
Rob Exile Ward on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to The New NickB: There's a full book devoted to Crowhurst by Nicholas Tomalin 'The Strange Voyage of Donald Crowhurst', or similar.

Very sad, very moving.
johncoxmysteriously - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:

>I hate all drugs cheats but consider this... if everybody was cheating yet Armstrong was still faster, surely that makes him a prodigious athlete?

I think the point is that some athletes respond better to drugs than others. (at least besides the point that Armstrong seems to have been operating on an industrial scale compared to others).

So the answer to your question, even if one granted the premise that in fact it was a level playing field where everyone was cheating equally, would be 'maybe; we don't know.'

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

I suspect the next thing will probably be the revelation that PED's have been widespread in football for some time.

jcm
mrchewy - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux: Maradonna's handball...
dissonance - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:
> I'm no Armstrong supporter, I hate all drugs cheats but consider this... if everybody was cheating yet Armstrong was still faster, surely that makes him a prodigious athlete? I don't think anybody would dispute his ability as a bike handler or tactician.

anyone good enough to turn pro cyclist is going to be a damned good athlete. It wouldnt matter how many drugs etc i hit the tour de france would still be out of my league.

However with regards to the cheating.
a)not everyone was
b)you get different responses to drugs, people with lower red blood count would benefit most from drugs to boost it.
c)the level and professionalism of the drug taking varied. So its not a case of it being a balanced playing field.
needvert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Rigid Raider)
>
> I don't think we can doubt that Armstrong was an amazing athlete, but not everyone was cheating, just the ones making all the money. He robbed many great athletes of their livelihoods.

He didn't rob any great athletes of their livelihoods any more than any winner robs a loser.

Though perhaps I'm wrong, and various pro cyclists have been living homeless and starving because they couldn't win the tour de france because lance was always in front.


We should always expect people to game the system if we can't adequately enforce the rules of the system.

I have to admit to being as outraged about this as I would with someone having covert plastic surgery winning a natural beauty contest. That is to say, I don't see what the big deal is. (Especially given the prevalence of performance enhancing drugs in climbing.)
The New NickB - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to needvert:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> He didn't rob any great athletes of their livelihoods any more than any winner robs a loser.

If he cheated, which he did, he robbed them.
>
> Though perhaps I'm wrong, and various pro cyclists have been living homeless and starving because they couldn't win the tour de france because lance was always in front.

Not homeless and starving so OK, hmm.

> I have to admit to being as outraged about this as I would with someone having covert
plastic surgery winning a natural beauty contest. That is to say, I don't see what the big deal is. (Especially given the prevalence of performance enhancing drugs in climbing.)

It very sad that you don't see cheating as an issue.

mkean - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I think it would be interesting to see what proportion of footballers are regularly abusing painkillers so they can train more frequently. It is supposed to be a major problem in American Football and basket ball.

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