/ Cookrise are Dogs allowed

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SCrossley on 12 Nov 2012
I know it was the case that Dogs were banned but now that it is CROW has that situation changed. I have checked the RAD and there is no mention there.
Cheers sjc
Simon Caldwell - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:
The open access maps
http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk/wps/portal/oasys/maps/MapSearch
seem to suggest that there is currently no restriction.
If you search for Crookrise you get a 'no dogs' warning at the bottom, but scroll the map so it only shows Crookrise the restriction disappears, so it presumably applies to the Rylstone area.
JDal - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: If you click on the PDF against the "no dogs" warning you get a detailed map showing where the restrictions are, and they're nowhere near Crookrise.
In reply to sjc:

Last time I was there (about 3 years ago and after the CROW act) they weren't. It also might be closed for shooting at this time of year. I think it would be best to check either with the National Park Information Office 01756 752774 or the Devonshire Estate Office 01756 710227.
SCrossley on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Stephen Reid:
Thanks everyone, I think I will ring the National Park and ask them or, being lazy now, anyone know the local access rep.
Cheers sjc
Tall Clare - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:

If you can wait until tomorrow morning I'll walk up to the gate and have a look for you.
alisonk on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc: I went through this earlier in the year with the National Parks people and Natural England, Crookrise itself is open access. However the Bolton Abbey estate is subject to a section 4(I think its 4) restriction which means dogs are banned. Annoyingly in their wisdom they decided to stop showing this restriction on the open access maps so it looks like there aren't any. So the position is dogs are allowed at Crookrise but you can't get them there.
peter.corrigan - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc: I live in Skipton and go up there all the time. Dogs aren't allowed anywhere apart from the public footpaths and bridleways. The path to Crookrise isn't either. I know people who have been challenged by gamekeepers.
There isn't an issue if you have a dog in the areas where you are allowed to take one....I've met the Duke of Devonshire with dog not on a lead without any unpleasantness.
Same applies to Eastby, Rylstone and Rolling Gate.
SCrossley on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:
Sounds like it`s easiest to leave the Dog at home.
Cheers
Gerry_Doncaster - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc: I climb in that area regularly. It's always been my understanding that dogs aren't allowed anywhere on Barden Moor which includes crags such as Crookrise, Rylstone, Eastby, Simon's Seat, Lord's Seat. If you're in any doubt contact the Bolton abbey estate office, the phone number should be on the website.
EeeByGum - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to peter.corrigan:
> I've met the Duke of Devonshire with dog not on a lead without any unpleasantness.

Does that count? If I were the Duke of Devonshire and owned the whole of North England like he goes, I would do what I liked! :-)

tommycoopersghost on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:

dogs are always allowed!


andy - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to moraldecay:
> (In reply to sjc)
>
> dogs are always allowed!

No, they're not, and please don't jeopardise what is a pretty fair access agreement to make some kind of point. We have open access to Barden Moor when they're not shooting, and all they ask is that you keep dogs under control and on the public footpaths and bridleways (which means you can't take them to any of the crags). Generally they're pretty relaxed about the definition of "on the path" (the only run-in I've ever had was with a volunteer national park lady who insisted that all dogs had to be On A Lead).

The same goes for mountain bikes - ride across the bridleways but don't ride anywhere else. They could be a whole lot more restrictive if they wanted.
Simon Caldwell - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:
> They could be a whole lot more restrictive if they wanted.

I fully agree with everything else you say. But how could they be more restrictive? If they tear up the access agreement then it becomes subject to CROW, which will give us pretty much what we've currently got, only with fewer 'closed' days.
tommycoopersghost on 15 Nov 2012
I just don't care about the self proclaimed norman duke of anywhere telling me what i can and can't do! Why should i?
andy - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: because grouse moors are not the same as most CROW land...
andy - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to moraldecay:
> I just don't care about the self proclaimed norman duke of anywhere telling me what i can and can't do! Why should i?

Of course you don't. Right on comrade.

Meanwhile, back in the real world...
Simon Caldwell - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:
> because grouse moors are not the same as most CROW land

How do they differ? (genuine question - I'm not looking for an argument!)
toad - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: A lot of them have year round dog restrictions because of the vulnerability of ground nesting birds (not just grouse) to disturbance by dogs.

It also helps to keep visitor presence to a minimum to allow Harrier management to continue without any pesky interference from witnesses
tommycoopersghost on 15 Nov 2012
Sod lord sir devonshire and his grouse shooting
ads.ukclimbing.com
JDal - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to andy)
> [...]
>
> How do they differ? (genuine question - I'm not looking for an argument!)

They don't differ really. They tend to have restrictions, but they are still CRoW land. There's non-grouse moor with the same restrictions. It's often whatever the landowner can get away with.
andy - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to JDal:
> (In reply to Toreador)
> [...]
>
> They don't differ really. They tend to have restrictions, but they are still CRoW land. There's non-grouse moor with the same restrictions. It's often whatever the landowner can get away with.

I think that the access agreements on Barden Moor could be a lot more onerous than they are - open access except on a relatively few shooting days a year, which tend to be midweek.
GPN - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc:
I've now updated the access details on the UKC logbook page.
andy - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to GPN:
> (In reply to sjc)
> I've now updated the access details on the UKC logbook page.

Updated them to what? You can't get to Crookers without going across the Open Acess land where no doggies are allowed:

http://www.boltonabbey.com/whattodo/walking.htm
GPN - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:
Wind yer neck in. I've just made it clear that dogs aren't allowed.
Simon Caldwell - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:
> open access except on a relatively few shooting days a year, which tend to be midweek.

In August Barden Moor was closed for 12 days, including 2 weekends (ie 50%). I don't know how many days it was closed in other months, but given that shooting doesn't start until August 12th I suspect that the total probably exceeds the maximum 28 days that CROW would allow.
JDal - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:
> (In reply to JDal)
> [...]
>
> I think that the access agreements on Barden Moor could be a lot more onerous than they are - open access except on a relatively few shooting days a year, which tend to be midweek.

I'm not sure they can change them under Section 15 of CRoW. http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/S15_FAQs_V.1.0_tcm6-26995.pdf
andy - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to andy)
> [...]
>
> In August Barden Moor was closed for 12 days, including 2 weekends (ie 50%). I don't know how many days it was closed in other months, but given that shooting doesn't start until August 12th I suspect that the total probably exceeds the maximum 28 days that CROW would allow.

If they're not shooting they don't close it. In September they closed 12 days (2 days of which were at weekends - they don't shoot Sundays, so when you say "50%" you're not quite right - it was 2 Saturdays).

And in October they closed 4 days - making it the same as the 28 they could close under CRoW, of which a total of 4 were Saturdays.

I live under Barden Moor and run up there most weekends - I've never found it a terrible imposition to keep my dog on the footpaths and occasionally stick to the path when they're shooting - and some of my neighbours, the local pubs (and Mrs Bob) make some or all of their living from the estate and the shooty types. This access agreement has been on place for far longer than CroW - I think the estate deserve some credit for the way they've handled access since 1968 (which was when the agreement was signed, I think).
Simon Caldwell - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to andy:

Fully in agreement. Apart from the assertions that things would be worse without the existing arrangement, which seems to have more or less given the same access as CROW now does, but a few decades earlier.
Simon Caldwell - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:

I just wish that the restrictions were included on the Open Access maps. Many people use these as their source of information, and could easily arrive with dogs because no restrictions are mentioned.
Closures due to fire risk are similarly not mentioned, I was hit by this a few years ago when I checked the maps before heading over, only to find we couldn't get to the crag.
I suspect this is down to Natural England (or whoever maintains the maps) rather than the estate.
andy - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: Couldn't get the access maps link to work, but the estate is in brown (not green for CRoW land) on the national park's access map showing it's under a separate agreement. The issue here is Crookrise is actually over the wall and therefore on "normal" CRoW land, not on the Barden estate's access agreement land. However the approach IS across the estate land, and not on a public footpath.
bogster - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to sjc: No Dogs allowed go somewhere else.
MHutch - on 17 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:

I think the main issue with Barden Moor is that some of the most travelled paths - the one from Embsay Reservoir past Crookrise is the best example, or the one up to Eastby Crag, have remained permissive paths while paths of equal or lesser status are PROWs.

In the case of fire risk (or taking a pooch), it means I can turn right at the gate and tramp across the moor to Embsay Crag, but not allowed to go straight on to Crookrise, even though the Crookrise path skirts the moor almost entirely.

When it comes to fire risk, I've always taken a pragmatic view that, as I don't smoke or drop litter, I'm not going to start a fire by spending 30 minutes on a broad path.


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