/ Does the UK sell weapons to Israel?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
Interested to know the answer to this question if anyone knows.
Sir Chasm - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: Google says yes.
John_Hat - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Probably. We make weapons, and if you do so then they will inevitably end up in the hands of those who have money to pay for them, regardless of how many safeguards, red tape, authorisations, etc are put in the way. Way of the world.
billy no-mates - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

I don't think weapons, as the Israelis don't like to be reliant on external sources, but I am pretty sure UK companies (I doubt it is the UK, so no, in answer to your post,) sell weapons tech to Israel.

Do you have a problem with this?
Milesy - on 19 Nov 2012
Arms dealers will openly sell to both sides of a conflict.
Wonko The Sane - on 19 Nov 2012
deepsoup - on 19 Nov 2012
toad - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: historically we have - Centurion tanks were used by the Israelis in various guises for many years
EeeByGum - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: Of course we do. I am always really surprised by this debate. On the one hand, the defence industry in this country employs thousands of people and is a good thing all round - apparently. However, as soon as those arms are used for their intended purpose (to kill people) it then becomes a little bit dirty and politically sensitive.
Jim C - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to billy no-mates:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> I don't think weapons, as the Israelis don't like to be reliant on external sources, but I am pretty sure UK companies (I doubt it is the UK, so no, in answer to your post,) sell weapons tech to Israel.
>
> Do you have a problem with this?

Last night it was said on the news that it was 'mostly' american equupment being used against Gasa, but given our history, we are bound to be in there too.
toad - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to EeeByGum: off tangent a little bit, but I am mystified by the obsession with selling state of the art Typhoons (and the Tornado before that) to Saudi Arabia. Are they expecting an invasion by Russia anytime soon? We seem to have an arms industry that is focussed entirely on selling ludicrously over equipped fighter jets to one arab state.
dissonance - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

of a sort i believe. Mostly components for aircraft etc.
I think they do ask nicely for them not to be used in the occupied territories though.
dissonance - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to toad:

> We seem to have an arms industry that is focussed entirely on selling ludicrously over equipped fighter jets to one arab state.

no they are happy to sell to most arab states its just Saudi are more likely to buy.
rogersavery - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

The uk is one of the biggest exporter of weapons in the world

We do export to Israel - http://www.caat.org.uk/issues/israel/

We did have a major hand in starting the problem - it looks like its working out quite well for us from a financial point of view
Mike Highbury - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to rogersavery:
> We did have a major hand in starting the problem - it looks like its working out quite well for us from a financial point of view

That's an impressively evenhanded approach if UK troops are indeed operating missile launchers in Gaza.
PeterM - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Mike Highbury:
> (In reply to rogersavery)
> [...]
>
> That's an impressively evenhanded approach if UK troops are indeed operating missile launchers in Gaza.

- Oh dear, somewhat missed the point I think.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Historically the Israelis got weapons first from Czechoslovakia (the war of independence) with implicit Russian backing since they thought Israel might go communist. Then when Israel didn't, they were bought from the French, who will sell anyone anything of course. The US got involved from 67, with a cunning plan to sell to both sides - to ensure peace.
Of course Israel is now itself a major producer and exporter, especially of hi-tech system. Shares in Raphael who make the Iron Dome system might be a good punt now!
The UK traditionally supplies Israel's enemies. Up to 67 they supplied almost all Jordan's weapons. Now they push them in Saudi and nearby states.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

But they also sell to Israel also no?
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
Hope this shit is over soon! And if you are in Israel, keep safe!
ballsac - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

i think the main UK componant in the F-16 is the Ejection seat. we don't, from recall, sell them anything 'kenetic' because we don't produce anything kinetic that they either want to buy, or that they can't buy something similar for peanuts from the US.

if we won't sell to them, they may not sell to us - and we are heavily reliant on their optic/designation systems and UAV's, and they produce the best that can be bought.

personally, i can live with the trade - not only would us throwing our toys out of the pram achieve very little for Palestinians, but it would harm us significantly, both through not being able to use their kit, and the fuss it would cause with the US.

appalling as it may be, i value UK lives and interests over Palestinian ones, or Israeli ones, or American ones. if its in UK interests for Palestinians, or anyone else, to get the shitty end of the stick, then i can live with that. its not nice, and if i could bring peace to all while maintaining UK security, i would - but i'm not going to risk serious harm to UK interests for other people.





EeeByGum - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to toad:
> (In reply to EeeByGum) off tangent a little bit, but I am mystified by the obsession with selling state of the art Typhoons (and the Tornado before that) to Saudi Arabia.

I have no idea what Saudi Arabia plans to do with them, but know for a fact that they are probably the only country in the world who can afford to buy them, hence our enthusiasm. I would imagine that when we wage war on Saudi over oil, opinions will have changed somewhat.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to ballsac:

If you value UK lives more then you should be campaigning to get rid of the MPs who keep sending UK personnel off to wars that achieve nothing.
subalpine - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: quit moaning- wars are good for our economy..
yeti on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

in any industry you want to sell stuff to them as use it

then sell em more stuff

though more serious, gaza is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel

this conflict will ensure tensions are high for another 4-5 generations
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to yeti:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)

> this conflict will ensure tensions are high for another 4-5 generations

The Palestinians have got to get rid of Hamas to make any progress. A friend of mine is a Saudi raised Palestinian. Him and his family have avoided the area for a generation, but want to go back if it settles down.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> But they also sell to Israel also no?

Like the link earlier says, some bits and pieces. But there's nothing serious that Israel needs from the UK

jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to ballsac)
>
> If you value UK lives more then you should be campaigning to get rid of the MPs who keep sending UK personnel off to wars that achieve nothing.

If you value UK lives you should be campaigning more for road safety.
butteredfrog - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to ballsac:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> i think the main UK componant in the F-16 is the Ejection seat. we don't, from recall, sell them anything 'kenetic' because we don't produce anything kinetic that they either want to buy, or that they can't buy something similar for peanuts from the US.
>

I thought BAE systems owned a chunk of the US "defence" industry.
Padraig on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Not sure of the "rules & regs" presently BUT about 15 years ago the UK couldn't (or maybe wouldn't can't rem) sell a "complete" killing system to a country. e.g. I know they sold guns to Israel but NOT the ammo. Strangely, at the same time they sold ammo to Egypt bot NOT guns.
Just a bhoy - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
There was a display in the Al Aqsa mosque about the first intifada. There were several batton round cartridges and tear gas cannisters that were clearly British made.
ads.ukclimbing.com
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> Hope this shit is over soon! And if you are in Israel, keep safe!

Was in Beersheba when it started. Alarms and rockets every hour in the night. One alarm in Jerusalem where I am now, but it landed near an Arab town in the west bank.
This Iron Dome is amazing. Look at the youtube clips: it's like Star Wars.
toad - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to dek)
> [...]
>
>
> This Iron Dome is amazing. Look at the youtube clips: it's like Star Wars.

Very expensive, though? News here says decision to fire is based on humanitarian/economic value of target - can't afford to target every rocket
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> If you value UK lives you should be campaigning more for road safety.

In reply to jonnie3430:


I am, I was on TV last week talking about it.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to toad:

It's used for large rockets heading for significant targets. So generally the cost is less than the damage avoided Its success ratio is about 90%, and is the only working anti-missile system ever used in history.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/11/16/incredible-raw-footage-of-iron-dome-in-action-posted-on-youtube... see the last 30 seconds!
But the affect of Israeli's morale to see these Iranian missiles knocked out of the sky is incalculable!
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-5
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

What do you think the affect on the morale of people living in Gaza is by the current actions of Israel?
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> What do you think the affect on the morale of people living in Gaza is by the current actions of Israel?

I hope that they will agree to a permanent cease fire. This is all Israel asks of Hamas. Israel has no desire to move back into Gaza. They withdrew 18 years ago under the Oslo agreement, and evacuated their towns 7 years ago. The Israeli actions were preceded by the firing of about 12000 rockets and other stuff into Israel over 12 years. And about 600 this year before Israel responded.
If Hamas stopped this pathetic fundamentalist Muslim attempt to destroy Israel and spent some time and money on the people living in Gaza, we all would be better off. Especially the Gazans.

Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

Ok thanks, what do you think affect of the particular restrictions that Israel places on people living in Gaza on a day to day basis? When rockets are not being fired I mean.

Do you think that Israel building settlements, walls etc is likely be good for peace in the longterm or just antagonize people who already have a much reduced quality of life compared to people in Israel?
In reply to MikeTS:
> Its success ratio is about 90%, and is the only working anti-missile system ever used in history.

What about the US system with the silly name --- errrr... Patriot isn't it? Didn't Israel get some Iraqi scuds with them back in 91? The US have hit things with it haven't they? Obviously different type of missiles, but I thought it worked to some degree.
In reply to MikeTS:
> And about 600 this year before Israel responded.

Have their been no Israeli strikes in Gaza this year before this last couple of days? Sounds most unlikely.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> Ok thanks, what do you think affect of the particular restrictions that Israel places on people living in Gaza on a day to day basis?

The restrictions are on them entering Israel (a country they have declared war on) and smuggling in weapons. Sounds OK to me!


> Do you think that Israel building settlements, walls etc

No settlements in Gaza. There is a fence along the border. But as I said, Gaza is a different country, so fence not a problem

If you are interested (I suspect you are not and have an axe to grind) Israel still supplies much of Gaza's electric power: which has not been cut off (amazing!) Also it is till taking patients from Gaza to Israeli hospitals and supplying food medical equipment to Gaza: see http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=489242697765272&set=a.250335824989295.62131.1252490708313...

MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> [...]
>
> Have their been no Israeli strikes in Gaza this year before this last couple of days? Sounds most unlikely.

A couple, to take out guys firing rockets

MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> [...]
>
> What about the US system with the silly name --- errrr... Patriot isn't it?

As I understand it, they missed almost everything and became hazards themselves when they returned to earth.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

I'm talking about the civilians, not Hamas. I am not talking about settlements in Gaza either.

Ultimately though I think this is an overall failure of Israel. Relative to finding a peaceful solution, designing war systems and bombing people is probably quite easy.

From a human point of view I think it's unlikely you can find a lasting peace pursuing the current tactics.

Does Israel control food, water etc into Gaza and other territories?
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> Ok thanks, what do you think affect of the particular restrictions that Israel places on people living in Gaza on a day to day basis?

I think your geography is wrong. Gaza is a different place from the West Bank. No Israeli presence in Gaza so no day to day restrictions

Unless of course you are a Christian, when you are killed, or a Fatah supporter when you get thrown off the tops of tall buildings, or a women who is forced to wear a a veil. But these are Hamas day to day restrictions, which apparently come into another category!

MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012


>
> Does Israel control food, water etc into Gaza and other territories?

It controls entry from Israel to ensure no weapons coming in, but there is a fairly open border with Egypt from Gaza. Interestingly, although Egypt has an Muslim Brotherhood government, it too has very strong restrictions on movements of things and people.
As you can see from before, Israel does allow some humanitarian movement: but these are very controlled since Hamas have used these before to try and bring in suicide bombers

Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

Sorry I was asking if Israel control access to water and food by placing restrictions on what Palestinians can get. I am just asking in a general sense.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
Relative to finding a peaceful solution, designing war systems and bombing people is probably quite easy.
>

I agree entirely. The problem is that Hamas is obsessed with destroying Israel (nuts!!) How can you find a peaceful solution and talk to someone who's only agenda item is the terms of Israel's destruction!
I would love to know!
In reply to MikeTS: There have been plenty of civilians killed in the "response" attacks down the years. It's part of the IDF's narrative that they only "respond", but it's a cycle and has been for so long its utterly pointless with either side saying "we're just responding".
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:

Toby
You know very well that in the 'morality' and 'legality' of wars it is intent that matters. The IDF cannot be accused of targeting civilians. Targeting (fortunately remarkably badly) civilians is all that Hamas has ever done.
And I would love to know how else you deal with people that just want to kill you.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
According to the Grauniad these are what Israel is asking of Hamas.

1/ No hostile fire of any kind to come from Gaza into Israel including smalls arms fire at Israeli troops near the border 2/5

2/ Hamas fighters must be stopped from travelling to the Sinai to carry out attacks against Israel at the Sinai/Israel border 3/5

3/ Hamas mustnt be able to rearm. International & regional actors needed for this ("Egypt can play a key role in bringing about ceasefire.")

4/ A ceasefire must not simple be a "time-out" for Hamas,
yeti on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

very true,
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:

> The Israeli actions were preceded by the firing of about 12000 rockets and other stuff into Israel over 12 years. And about 600 this year before Israel responded.

Which was preceded by the occupation of Palestine by Jewish armed forces, the driving out of Palestinians, bulldozing of their villages and the long gradual genocide of Palestinians that has followed. As Churchill said (I think) it is a fundamental human right of all people to fight for their freedom, which is all Palestinians have been doing for nearly a century now.

This particular burst of Israeli brutality can be traced back to the shooting of a 12 year old Palestinian in Gaza who was killed and a response from Gaza by firing an anti-tank round which hit an Israeli Army jeep, wounding three soldiers. What follows showed that the shooting was a deliberate provocation - the preparations had been in place for a while - with the coming elections in occupied Palestine due in a couple of months. Nothing wins vote in this barbaric place than showing one is capable of murdering a large number of Palestinians, preferably women and children.

It is all too sickening for words.
In reply to MikeTS:
> The IDF cannot be accused of targeting civilians.

I think "intent" isn't a moral or legal shield in cases like this. The geographic realities of Gaza, the weapons choices made by the IDF, and the subsequent numbers of civilians killed means that even if they do not intend to target civilians they are indifferent to killing civilians in their attempts to target Hamas operatives. In a relatively cramped place like Gaza saying "civilians should move away from Hamas facilities" is pretty ridiculous considering that Hamas is the government of Gaza and hence all state facilities seem to be classed as "terrorist infrastructure". As Israel controls 3 sides of Gaza, which I imagine is about 80-90% of its borders, where are Gazan civilians staying away from Hamas meant to go? Should the population of Gaza city move those few kms of farmland that is between the perimeter fence near Sderot and Gaza city itself?

> And I would love to know how else you deal with people that just want to kill you.

You agree ceasefires with them, which appears to be what was being negotiated with al-Jabari, when he then was killed last week. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?pagewanted=1&_...

Leaving aside completely the morality of it, I don't see how dropping a load of bombs on a city that kill lots of children, and doing so right in front of the world's media, is going to make the other side want to kill you less.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

This was years ago. There was a big fuss, and it turned out this was a mistranslation of the Hebrew. The word should not have been translated as Holocaust but as disaster
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
> [...]
>
> This was years ago. There was a big fuss, and it turned out this was a mistranslation of the Hebrew. The word should not have been translated as Holocaust but as disaster

Thanks - goes to show you can't believe all you read.
MikeTS - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Now you're in, I'm out. I have better things to do with my time.
In reply to Submit to Gravity: The dates at the top of the article!

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

2:25PM GMT 29 Feb 2008
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity) The dates at the top of the article!
>
> By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
>
> 2:25PM GMT 29 Feb 2008

One expects to be reading current news.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> Now you're in, I'm out. I have better things to do with my time.

Got Arabs to take out, have you?

Latest death toll in Gaza is over the 100 mark, most of whom were civilians including many children, at least one whole family... and the injured totals several hundreds... just as well you've left, come back another time as right now it's very difficult to remain polite. I really wonder what the inside of your mind must be like if you are not horrified by what you are supporting.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Ridge - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Padraig:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> Not sure of the "rules & regs" presently BUT about 15 years ago the UK couldn't (or maybe wouldn't can't rem) sell a "complete" killing system to a country. e.g. I know they sold guns to Israel but NOT the ammo. Strangely, at the same time they sold ammo to Egypt bot NOT guns.

I'm struggling to think what sort of guns, (assuming you mean small arms), the Israelis would want to buy from us? The SA80 A1, a job lot of clapped out SLRs and a stash of Browing hi-powers dating back to WW2 wouldn't exactly have the manufacturers of Uzis, Galils and Desert Eagles salivating.

I suppose if they could cope with a 20 year lead time BAE could have knocked up some tanks fitted for, (but not with), turrets and tracks to replace their own built Merkavas..
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You are out of line. If you cannot see both sides to this then you should have a closer look or accept that you are prejudiced.
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> I hope that they will agree to a permanent cease fire. This is all Israel asks of Hamas. Israel has no desire to move back into Gaza. They withdrew 18 years ago under the Oslo agreement, and evacuated their towns 7 years ago. The Israeli actions were preceded by the firing of about 12000 rockets and other stuff into Israel over 12 years. And about 600 this year before Israel responded.
> If Hamas stopped this pathetic fundamentalist Muslim attempt to destroy Israel and spent some time and money on the people living in Gaza, we all would be better off. Especially the Gazans.

http://www.channel4.com/news/israeli-assassins-thwarted-hopes-of-peace-deal
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:

"might have been persuaded to suspend rocket attacks,"

Let me get this straight; you think he should be allowed to continue to allow rocket attacks against the civilians in Israel, just so he might be persuaded not to in the future?
woolsack - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> Hope this shit is over soon! And if you are in Israel, keep safe!

And if you are Palestinian and in Gaza, tough shit, you're locked in eh?

Love how you all pile on here in defence of the land grab and gloss over this important aspect. How many innocent Palestinians are you going to slaughter this time round?

As someone correctly pointed out on radio 4 Today this morning, the pro Israel lobby always starts with the end of the story to justify their current actions
woolsack - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> Now you're in, I'm out. I have better things to do with my time.

Now someone arrives who can tackle you on your lies you're off don't you mean?
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
>
> "might have been persuaded to suspend rocket attacks,"
>
> Let me get this straight; you think he should be allowed to continue to allow rocket attacks against the civilians in Israel, just so he might be persuaded not to in the future?

I made no comment whatsoever - I merely provided a link to an Israeli peace campaigner saying the Israelis assassinated a Hamas leader at a point in time when the group was considering a ceasefire he was trying to broker.

I leave it up to the reader to decide whether or not they consider this to be the action of a state who wants peace.
David Martin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Seeing it from "both sides" is a good idea. I'm selectively cherry-picking here, but I imagine this picture is repeated for the duration of the conflict on Israel's "borders":

2008-9 Gaza war.
Israeli civilians killed: 3
Palestinian civilians killed: 926


dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to woolsack:

Herr Wooley
Please provide proof of the "lies" plz?
David Martin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Let me get this straight; you think he should be allowed to continue to allow rocket attacks against the civilians in Israel, just so he might be persuaded not to in the future?

Its all relative of course. As the famous anti-semite, Noam Chomsky, stated the other day:

"Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder. When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense."
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> I made no comment whatsoever - I merely provided a link to an Israeli peace campaigner saying the Israelis assassinated a Hamas leader at a point in time when the group was considering a ceasefire he was trying to broker.
>
> I leave it up to the reader to decide whether or not they consider this to be the action of a state who wants peace.

Whilst considering this question, the reader should ask themselves whether they think more or less British blood would have been spilled in Northern Ireland to date, had we decided to execute Gerry Adams during the peace negotiations in that conflict.
Jon Stewart - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
>
> "might have been persuaded to suspend rocket attacks,"
>
> Let me get this straight; you think he should be allowed to continue to allow rocket attacks against the civilians in Israel, just so he might be persuaded not to in the future?

Can't you see how bizarre and twisted your logic is?

You seem to be describing the assassination of al-Jaabari as "not allowing [him?] Hamas to continue rocket attacks against the civilians of Israel". I honestly can't believe you can cling to that logic, because it's so absurd.

If I was an Israeli politician, and my priority was to stop the rocket attacks and protect my civilian population, assassinating Hamas leaders would be the very last thing I would choose to do. However, if I wanted to ignite an armed conflict in which Israel has an absurdly large military advantage (and because of this I knew full well that Palestinian casualties would far, far outnumber the Isreali count which is great because I don't give a monkeys about killing innocent Palestinian civilians if it means that I could weaken the position and capabilities of Hamas), then assassinating someone like al-Jaabari is pretty much the first thing I'd do.

Is that not completely, blindingly obvious to the entire world?
In reply to David Martin: I think the rockets coming out of Gaza suggest that they do have some heavy weapons and rocket artillery, even if it's homemade stuff.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

100/3 and in the land that belongs to the 100... there's only one side to this dispute.
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> trying to broker.
>
These are your words. In reality, a leader of Hamas has not said they will stop sending random rockets into Israel, but they might if the right offers are given to them.
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> Seeing it from "both sides" is a good idea. I'm selectively cherry-picking here,

So you're not seeing it from both sides. I could also write that Hamas has a stated aim of driving the Israelis into the sea, and they are the democratically elected government of Gaza. What should Israel's response be to this, and the repeated random rocket attacks against southern Israel? Or is that a one sided view and I should take into account the 1970's history and the 1940's history, or consider things that stand as they are?
>
> 2008-9 Gaza war.
> Israeli civilians killed: 3
> Palestinian civilians killed: 926

And? Take rockets fired at civilian population into account and the numbers go the other way.
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
> These are your words. In reality, a leader of Hamas has not said they will stop sending random rockets into Israel, but they might if the right offers are given to them.

Did you even read the article or listen to the interview? Those were not my words:

"Mr Baskin said he was attempting to broker a three to six-month ceasefire between Hamas and Israel at the time of Jaabari's death and had put the deal to Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak months before the Islamist's death.

He told Channel 4 News: "I know that Jaabari was interested in a ceasefire. He has enforced ceasefires in the past months and he was prepared, we hoped, to engage in activities that would prevent attacks against Israel, thereby preventing a pre-emptive Israeli strike that kills people and causes people on the Gaza side of the border to throw rockets at Israel.

"Every time there was a round of rocket fire I would get phone calls from Hamas: 'Please tell the Israelis we don't want to escalate. We want a ceasefire.' As it would escalate, I would get more and more phone calls with greater intensity."
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> [...]
>
> Its all relative of course. As the famous anti-semite, Noam Chomsky, stated the other day:
>
> " You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense."

Coming from an American that is the height of irony. I'm sure some American Indians that would agree with this but I don't see Noam putting his money where his mouth is.
lummox - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: Ariel Sharron's son is on Channel 4 saying that Gazan civilians deserved to die because they voted for Hamas... with impeccable logic like that, a peaceful solution must be just around the corner.
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
>
> Whilst considering this question, the reader should ask themselves whether they think more or less British blood would have been spilled in Northern Ireland to date, had we decided to execute Gerry Adams during the peace negotiations in that conflict.

Gerry Adams was a politician for the political arm of the IRA, so far removed from the IRA that they could negotiate. That was the whole point. Executing Martin McGuiness would be more appropriate.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
> These are your words. In reality, a leader of Hamas has not said they will stop sending random rockets into Israel, but they might if the right offers are given to them.

Since these rockets have started, about 10 years I think, 26 Israelis have been killed... In this last brutal murder fest the government of Israel killed as many Palestinians in Gaza in the first couple of days.

Can you really not see the difference?
Jon Stewart - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to David Martin)
> [...]
>
> Coming from an American that is the height of irony. I'm sure some American Indians that would agree with this but I don't see Noam putting his money where his mouth is.

The mind boggles.
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> Can't you see how bizarre and twisted your logic is?
>
Look below.
>
> If I was an Israeli politician, and my priority was to stop the rocket attacks ... I could weaken the position and capabilities of Hamas), then assassinating someone like al-Jaabari is pretty much the first thing I'd do.
>
> Is that not completely, blindingly obvious to the entire world?

???
andyathome - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
You are absolutely right. It IS important to see it from both sides.

And when you see the two sides in this conflict to be of such disproportionate power then, although both are indulging in terrorist tactics you might be forced to conclude that one side acts from desperation and the other from an overweening sense of their relative invulnerability and ability to kill at will.

I was tickled to hear an Israeli spokesperson this morning on the radio declaring that Israel had not entered Gaza at all. So which airspace are they in as they hit TV station building?
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> Since these rockets have started, about 10 years I think, 26 Israelis have been killed... In this last brutal murder fest the government of Israel killed as many Palestinians in Gaza in the first couple of days.
>
> Can you really not see the difference?

If you think you can compare deaths and not take into account random acts of aggression you are mistaken. If Hamas had better weapons the death toll would have been much higher for the Israelis. (It would have been all the Israelis if Hamas could do it.)
Eric9Points - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Can someone tell me what Hammas is hoping to achieve by continuing to fire missiles into Israel?

Does anyone else share my view that, whatever the rights and wrongs of the broader issues, Hammas are doing the people of Gaza no favours whatsoever?
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
>
> Gerry Adams was a politician for the political arm of the IRA, so far removed from the IRA that they could negotiate. That was the whole point. Executing Martin McGuiness would be more appropriate.

OK, substitute Martin McGuiness for Gerry Adams and consider the question.

andyathome - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

>
> And? Take rockets fired at civilian population into account and the numbers go the other way.

Oh no they bloody well don't. Or do you think that the hardware fired into Gaza 'doesn't count'?
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to lummox:

Hamas are a terrorist organisation that strongarmed the Palestinians into voting for them. Sharrons son is out of order and I don't agree, but surely you can see why he has that opinion?
Jon Stewart - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I don't follow. You think that Israel killing a Hamas leader has protected Israeli civilians rather than leading to an escalation of violence in which there are causalities on both sides (but far more on the Palestinian side).

You honestly, literally believe that to be true?
ads.ukclimbing.com
birdie num num - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
I once sold a pair of nanchakas to a bloke called Noah
Jon Stewart - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> Can someone tell me what Hammas is hoping to achieve by continuing to fire missiles into Israel?
>
> Does anyone else share my view that, whatever the rights and wrongs of the broader issues, Hammas are doing the people of Gaza no favours whatsoever?

I completely agree. It's an appalling strategy that gets a lot of Palestinians killed.
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to lummox)
>
> Hamas are a terrorist organisation that strongarmed the Palestinians into voting for them. Sharrons son is out of order and I don't agree, but surely you can see why he has that opinion?

If this was a Sadam Hussain's son saying UK and US citizens deserved to die for voting for Bush and Blair would you be so accepting of that attitude?
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to andyathome:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> You are absolutely right. It IS important to see it from both sides.
>
> And when you see the two sides in this conflict to be of such disproportionate power then,

Hamas still trying to destroy Israel is stupid and is not in the best interests of the Palestinian people?
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> If this was a Sadam Hussain's son saying UK and US citizens deserved to die for voting for Bush and Blair would you be so accepting of that attitude?

What part of I don't agree suggests that I am accepting of that attitude?
jonnie3430 - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
> [...]
>
> I completely agree. It's an appalling strategy that gets a lot of Palestinians killed.

Me too!
Jon Stewart - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Oh, and by dishonestly re-editing my post you have completely changed its argument, which makes me really not want to carry on discussing this.

I knew I'd get frustrated quickly and wish I'd not bothered, but I consistently find the pro-Israeli arguments so unfathomably dishonest and twisted, that despite myself I posted something on this thread.
lummox - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: No I can't. I dont think the voting behaviour of the BBC cameraman who's two year old boy was killed can justify such a totally f*cked up view of the world.
andyathome - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
Give me a current source for this oft-repeated claim that Hamas is determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

They don't recognise the state of Israel. Are they really still saying that they want to kill all the Israelis and drive them out of Israel?

I might struggle to recognise myself a resident of Greater Deutschland if the WWII conflict had gone another way. You can't help but admit that it must be difficult to recognise a 'state' parachuted onto what was your father's land by the 'great powers'.
Ciro - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
>
> What part of I don't agree suggests that I am accepting of that attitude?

"but surely you can see why he has that opinion?" sounds fairly accepting to me... if something's not right, it's not right - there's no need for a "but".
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Just a bhoy:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> There was a display in the Al Aqsa mosque about the first intifada. There were several batton round cartridges and tear gas cannisters that were clearly British made.

I wonder what the 'Muslim world' would have said if the iranian made missiles they fired at Jerusalem destroyed Al Aqsa, or landed in the muslim quarter?
Blame Allah or the Jews?!
David Martin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to David Martin)
> [...]
>
> So you're not seeing it from both sides.

When I said selective cherry picking I was referring to the sample period I chose. But the point remained that the pattern has been the same in every year.

> I could also write that Hamas has a stated aim of driving the Israelis into the sea, and they are the democratically elected government of Gaza.

And so what? Many Israeli's spout the same crap. It is the actions that count. Israel grabs more and more land on a daily basis. The occupants of that land are killed in far greater numbers than the attackers. Looking at both sides comes up with a pretty stark picture of inequality.

> And? Take rockets fired at civilian population into account and the numbers go the other way.

No, they don't.
David Martin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to David Martin)
> [...]
>
> Coming from an American that is the height of irony. I'm sure some American Indians that would agree with this but I don't see Noam putting his money where his mouth is.

Err
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to andyathome:
Read the Hamas charter and educate yourself. Or study the Fatwas issued by that nice chap Abu Qatada
Andy Say - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:
Thanks for the suggestion.

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16576 is illuminating.

And quite WTF Abu Qatada has to do with this particular issue is beyond me; you might as well blame the rabbis who have determined that this violence is to be encouraged.
Eric9Points - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:

Hadn't thought of reading their charter. According to article 28 they think that the Rotary club is intent on wiping out Islam. Hmmm..it goes on:

"...The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: “Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind.” Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”"

and that Israel wants to take over most of the middle east..
"For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there. Leaving the circle of conflict with Israel is a major act of treason and it will bring curse on its perpetrators. “Who so on that day turns his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly has incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.” Sura 8 (al-Anfal—Spoils of War), verse 16 We have no escape from pooling together all the forces and energies to face this despicable Nazi-Tatar invasion. "

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

christonabike
Eric9Points - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Say:

Interesting how this stuff can be interpreted. Certainly no mention of the Rotary club in the article you link to.

andyathome - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:

> "For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc.
>

That will be the settlement programme beyond the 1967 borders they are referring to do you think?

Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Does anyone else share my view that, whatever the rights and wrongs of the broader issues, Hammas are doing the people of Gaza no favours whatsoever?

And yet they support Hamas more and more. I think they simply have far more courage than us, they have lost far more than we can imagine and they feel they have nothing to lose. I admire them and feel ashamed that I am too scared and too comfortable to do anything to help them.
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:
> (In reply to Andy Say)
>
> Interesting how this stuff can be interpreted. Certainly no mention of the Rotary club in the article you link to.

I think they also say, Islam is a religion of peace? and teach their kids to "kill a jew and go to heaven".
Never had any threats from Rotary club members, would probably remember that, is it a secretive 'Jewish' conspiracy, you think?
Jim C - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to yeti:
>
>
> though more serious, gaza is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel
>
I guess you did not see the edition of Mythbusters where they tested this. It was surprisingly difficult to shoot fish in a barrel.
But bombing children in the 'barrel' that is Gaza seems to be a lot easier, as there is no water pressure to push them out of harms way.

I am getting the I Israeli view first hand via an Israeli graduate I'm working with who's family is getting called up as reservists, and who's parents are having to go to the bomb shelters, however, it has to be said the Israeli 'barrel' is somewhat safer, as it is able to intercept many of the bullets before it reaches their Barrel.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to andyathome)
> [...]
>
> Hamas still trying to destroy Israel is stupid and is not in the best interests of the Palestinian people?

They are trying to get Palestine back for the Palestinians and it is clearer every day that the occupation of Palestine by Jewish settlers makes this pretty well impossible, cohabitation is impossible with such violent people, all Palestinians realise this nowadays, except perhaps a few who see an interest in the present situation, so the policy of Hamas is seen by many Palestinians as the only realistic one, they no longer believe that a compromise two state solution is possible with people who act like the Israelis do, they appear to have lost all contact with humanity.

It's hard to say they are wrong looking at the present news programs.

Jim C - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to dek)
> [...]
>
> Was in Beersheba when it started. Alarms and rockets every hour in the night...
> This Iron Dome is amazing. Look at the youtube clips: it's like Star Wars.

Is this not just an update of the old American Patriot missile system?
In reply to andyathome:
> Give me a current source for this oft-repeated claim that Hamas is determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

I'm not sure about driving anyone into the sea, but the stuff about killing all Jews and annihilating Israel is in their founding charter from 1988. There are slightly different English translations of it, but article 7 is the bit many find pretty horrific, as it uses an infamous Koranic quote about killing all the jews:
"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

It's generally bombastic and over-blown in the way so much Islamist rhetoric tends to be, but you have to wonder if they put the bit in about Rotary and the Lions Club as some light relief (Art.28).
In reply to dek:

> I wonder what the 'Muslim world' would have said if the iranian made missiles they fired at Jerusalem destroyed Al Aqsa, or landed in the muslim quarter?

One rocket already has landed in the West Bank according to report. Fortunately no one was hurt it seems.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:


I don't think normal logic applies when you live in that sort of situation. They are reacting in a perfectly understandable way as is Israel. However, Israel as the much richer and controlling power is the failure as they could do a lot more to not build up the hatred.
Cuthbert on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Could you clarify if you support the Tories or not?
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
> However, Israel as the much richer and controlling power is the failure as they could do a lot more to not build up the hatred.
I hope you've no intentions to be an MSP Donald?
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:
Did you see Galloways little gem of a tweet? I thought he was a UK MP?

https://mobile.twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/268858060162859010
In reply to Saor Alba:
In 2011 7% of US arms exports went to Israel. Can't find the UK total, but in 2011 19% of UK arms exports went to Saudi Arabia, and 21% went to the US.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Dauphin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:

playing to the crowd though ain't he...normal for politicians

d
In reply to Saor Alba:
PS 7% of 66 Billion is I think almost 5 billion's worth to Israel
In reply to Saor Alba:
PPS Israel is noe the 8th largest arms exoporter with sales of over 12 billion
Dauphin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Dauphin:

kind of like livni & netunyahu come to think of it?

d
dek - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Dauphin:
> (In reply to Dauphin)
>
> kind of like livni & netunyahu come to think of it?
>
> d
Really? I think he's spending too much time working as a mouthpiece for Irans propaganda Station, Press TV.

Dauphin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:

could I just say I don't really give a f@@k about Galloway ramblings insupport or not of Press TV - I've watched this craven & disgusting punch and judy show play out for the last thirty years without let up.

Press TV are as deluded & censored as the BBC. Witness the stink when Rabbi Jonathan Sacks was allowed to say what he thought the motives were to the resumption of normal hostilities.

d
In reply to Saor Alba:
PPS 5 of the top 6 arms exporting countries are the 5 permanent members of the UN's Security Council.Ironically 2 self proclaimed "neutral " countries Sweden and Switzerland are also in the top 15. It's a funny old world right enough! -except if you are getting your head blown off!
Alex Slipchuk on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: there is some really disturbing and sickening attitudes revealed in this thread. Some of you should be ashamed of yourself. It is a very one sided conflict.
Timmd on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:There's a fair bit of callousness.
I like climbing - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> Interested to know the answer to this question if anyone knows.

Probably, but this country will sell weapons to whoever it can get away with selling to. Interesting to see the Prime Minister trying to sell arms to Saudi Arabia last week. I wonder who they would use these weapons on.

Having read a lot of posts here I would suggest that the Israelis and Gazans allow a peace keeping force into both countries/areas to try and settle things down and try and find a way to move forward.
Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen. The Israeli government will probably have no hesitation in murdering many more children to make it's point as one of their ministers has indicated. At least one member of the Israeli government or recent one should stand trial for previous war crimes but obviously won't and when you have governments made up of people like that then you aren't going to come up with useful solutions.
Rockets being fired into Israel provoked the current war but Israel behaving like Nazis isn't going to solve the problem.


Cuthbert on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to dek:

None currently. Should I seek your advice as a matter of course?
Simon4 - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to I like climbing: Godwin award for the bigoted, vicious, intolerant Guardian-reading tribalist idiot in the corner!

Listen halfwit, this was deliberately provoked by various parties to distract attention from the much bigger and far more brutal conflict taking place right next door in Syria, where according to recent UN estimates, as many as 30,000 people may have been killed. It is deliberate displacement activity, tailored to stir the self-righteousness glands in intemperate hypocrites like you.
In reply to Timmd:
> There's a fair bit of callousness.

Still gets loads of attention though doesn't it? As always with Israel-Palestine.

I have the "the Pub" turned off so don't know about there, but at least in this forum I've not seen any mention of Burma in recent weeks, nor of the latest disclosures of probable war crimes committed at the end of the Sri Lankan civil war, and little discussion of Syria.

But Is/Pal is always a media battle I guess. Anyone else reading both the IDF and Hamas twitter feeds? Helpfully in English, of course.
Rory Shaw - on 20 Nov 2012
Is it any wonder that Hamas want to destroy the Israelis, is it any wonder how an organisation like Hamas can be in power. The illegal occupation by Israel of Palestinian land, continuing destruction of Palestinian villages, farms and families, their military campaigns in the past decade which has seen the death of far more Palestinians civilians than Israelis.

Is it any wonder that there are lots of palestinian "terrorist" who want to destrpy Israel. And why are they branded terrorists by Israel? They are surely only defending their territory. Lets face it Israel and their "defence" (palestinian irradication) force combined with Mossad have done most of the terrorizing over the past 50 years!!

When are Israel and the west going to realize the longer this goes on more and more people who are suffering our oppression will be radicalized - fear and destruction only leads to hate.

As Princes Leia said to the Grand Moff - "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!"
In reply to Rory Shaw:
> is it any wonder how an organisation like Hamas can be in power. The illegal occupation by Israel of Palestinian land,

But oddly Hamas is in power in Gaza, the one bit of Palestine where Israel has pulled out. Hamas isn't in power in the West Bank where the occupation remains a daily reality.
Mike Stretford - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon4:
>
> Listen halfwit, this was deliberately provoked by various parties to distract attention from the much bigger and far more brutal conflict taking place right next door in Syria, where according to recent UN estimates, as many as 30,000 people may have been killed. It is deliberate displacement activity, tailored to stir the self-righteousness glands in intemperate hypocrites like you.

Who are the various parties?
dissonance - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to Papillon:

> Who are the various parties?

the beeb and the guardian of course.
Rory Shaw - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA: Yes Israel are not in Gaza but I'm sure that the Palestinians there feel like Israel is occupying their land. Also how many people who are now residents of Gaza have been forecd out of their homes and moved to Gaza to find refuge. Mossad is probably the reason why Hamas is not in the west bank

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