UKC

OK, so you you're battling up Orion Face in a blizzard, and you are placing a BD turbo express ice screw, which happens to belong to your mate who's belaying below.

Then you drop it, and it whistles past your mate and disappears below.

You finish the climb, have a pint in Fort, then bugger off home.

So do you buy your mate a replacement screw, or is it put down to a shared loss, could have been either of you dropping the other's gear?

In reply to Fredt:
I'd replace it, but I probably wouldn't be hugely offended if someone else didn't return the favour. Depends on the persons situation.

In reply to Fredt:

Offer to buy him a replacement, and if he's a real mate then he'll go halfs.

In reply to Fredt: Offer to replace it, and hope he doesn't accept!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

+1

I've been on climbs where one or the other has lost gear and we've always gone halves. These things happen and it's a team responsibility.

In reply to Fredt:

I would offer to replace it. Whether I would accept the offer of a replacement, as it could indeed have been either person's, I'm not quite sure. Might depend on how much it was, perhaps if it was a particularly expensive bit of gear I might suggest going halves on it.

Neil

In reply to Fredt: My mate lost my waterproof camera when we were surfing. It was tied to the surfboard, but the lanyard snapped.

As it had "died in action", so was a shared risk, we went halves. If it had been lost through carelessness, such as being left in the pub, I think I'd have expected full replacement.

In reply to Fredt:
I'd offer and then see what he says, essentially what I'd hope my mate would do for me.

In reply to Fredt:

Personally, I'd replace it straight away, cos that's what I'd want without being asked. In the least the person that dropped/lost it should offer to replace it. Then take it from there, result could be shared cost, or your mate is so flush he declines your offer, or he had more than he needs in the first place.

In reply to Fredt:


So many more details affect the result though

e.g.
If your mate had seen the approaching blizzard and suggested a retreat (abbing off tat) and you'd said "no let's press on" then you pay for the screw.

In reply to fire_munki:

This is the test - as someone said above there are lots of variables but just ask yourself, if the roles were reversed, what would you like your mate to say/offer to you? then do that.

In reply to Fredt:

If I thought it was 'one of those things' like stuck gear that wasn't really anyones fault I'd go halves. If I felt it was my incompetance I'd replace it.

In reply to Fredt:

As others have said - offer to replace it. In my head, if someone is kind enough to let me use their gear, I am taking responsibility for its safe return.

In reply to GrahamD: 'If I thought it was 'one of those things' like stuck gear that wasn't really anyones fault I'd go halves. If I felt it was my incompetance I'd replace it.'


+1 to this sentiment.

Also, some people I've climbed with in the past have had an urge to have this chat pre-climb - kind of like a pre nup, minus the marriage.

In reply to Fredt: as previous posters stated. Andy N etc. It's all about common sense and courtesy

In reply to ianstevens:

Blimey,what with checking each other`s figure 8`s and now this we will never get off the ground.

In reply to deepstar: 2 minute chat on the walk/drive in really...

In reply to Fredt:


Shared risk, swings and roundabouts. He offered to replace last time, but I've not taken him up on the offer and won't - but that hasn't stopped me on another occasion from sending butter fingers off on on a little diversion the following day to see if the brand new screw and QD was still sticking out of the snow where it was seen to fall the previous morning. It was - to his relief, because it was beginning to look as though he had 'form' in this regard!

In reply to Fredt:
So.. were you the one doing the dropping or the belaying?

In reply to Ava Adore: But you're climbing together... its not like he lent it you..

When I've abbed off and left gear we've tried to even it up..

I'd offer but I'd never accept an offer myself... these things happen..

In reply to Fredt:

Go halves.

In reply to Fredt: go halves at least, you were in charge of it at the time.

In reply to Fredt: Think it depends on the situation. If I felt it was my stupidity or butter fingers that caused the loss I would offer to pay. Though if on the other side think I would only accept a full refund if I felt my partner was unduly stupid and would probably accept sharing the cost in most situations.

In reply to Fredt:

Ok, a different approach;

You're climbing on a shared rack, place a runner on a nut before a reachy roof crux. It's at the limits of both of your climbing abilities. You take a whipper, and the runner goes half-way to tearing. It's a bin job.

In reply to neuromancer:

Or, equally, something more expensive like a cam deforms or whatever.

In reply to neuromancer:

If I was the leader, I would replace the gear very happily. It saved my life. If it was my gear that saved my second, I'd probably go halves at most (and more than likely not take anything).

In reply to Fredt:

again depends. I would consider what would of happened if it had been your screw that you dropped. Would your mate offer to pay for half of the replacement or laugh at your loss?

Personally last time I dropped a mates brand new BD turbo express I went and bought him a replacement, basically as it was brand new and my mate was very hard up at the time (and I wanted some good karma so that I wouldn't drop any of my stuff next time out).

Yours,

Neil NT

In reply to IainRUK:
You're right of course but it still feels like my responsibility.

I have replaced gear before when I haven't been able to remove it when on second. But it was only a cheap nut. Maybe I'd have thought differently if it were a cam

Something to consider is that you were using 'his' screw because you didn't have any/had limited supplies of your own....without having the benefit of climbing with a partner who is able to afford the gear, you wouldn't have been climbing at all.

Replace the damn thing.

Sx

In reply to Fredt:

I think if you drop it due to sheer clumsiness that's 100% your fault and you should replace it.

E.g You borrow your friends car and drive with him as the passenger ... and crash...you wouldn't look at your friend and say "okay..let's go halves?" :P

In reply to Fredt:

You should at least go halves or don't expect to use other people's racks in future if you are not prepared for this. It's the unwritten rule that you share responsibility for gear on the climb. You should be offering the full replacement amount and letting your partner decide whether halves acceptable. An ice screw is £50 after all. It's not like dropping a nut.

In reply to Ava Adore:


In this case, it is not your responsibility - the leader placed it to protect him/herself. If they have chosen to use an awkward placement, that's their lookout. The only proviso is that you tell them when you arrive at the stance so that they have the option to either ab for it or abandon it. (If when seconding, you forget to take something out, that's a diferent matter and entirely your responsibility.)

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Some seconds are just crap at removing gear.
Some leaders place gear not to protect themselves, but to protect the second (e.g. traverses)

In reply to Fredt:
A group of us who climb together have a fairly standard agreement: stuck gear - go halves; dropped gear - butterfingers pays. This is irrespective of who the gear belongs to. We quite often climb with a shared rack: if a climb requires two full sets of cams or twelve ice screws it's unlikely many people will own everything required themselves.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Yes but I'm a good second .

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Probably the fairest solution

So, if you lost your own gear, would you expect your partner to cough up half?

In reply to Fredt:

I'd buy my mate a replacement screw if it was me that had dropped it.

In reply to teflonpete:
Even if you'd been reluctant to do the route and he'd urged you on to it?

In reply to Fredt: Depends on whatever you and said mate normally do. I do different things with different people, whatever you are both happiest with

In reply to Fredt: get a new mate, who has more gear.

In reply to nniff: No I haven't forgotten, just waiting for cheap ones to come up / win the lottery / age and infirmity mean we both forget / global warming to really take hold and render it useless ...
I was wicket keeper in school you know, useless at it!

In reply to Fredt: dropped three on my first ice climbing trip. replaced them all - at least it made me focus on being more careful the next trip ;-D.

In reply to Fredt: asking him if he wants a replacement puts him in the position of seeming like a c**t if he demands you replace it in full. Id just replace it, wonder whats going through his mind about you losing his shiny expensive ice screw

In reply to Fredt:
Is Orion Face in?

In reply to Fredt:

happened to me a few years back. dropped a friends friend #4 into the sea off of subliminal. I bought him a replacement when I was really stretched financially. it hurt! Anyway a few years later he gave it to me when he upgraded his rack and I still climb with it now. What goes around comes around is the phrase I think.
Matt

In reply to Andy Clarke:


Imo if the second is bollocks at removing gear when he's effectively on top rope, it's either halves or seconds responsibility.

If you then ab down yourself with a rock and a nut key and remove it, second buys you a beer.

In reply to neuromancer: Disagree almost entirely, but this only tends to happen to me with inexperienced seconds, in which case, the leader is responsible for everything.

In reply to Fredt:

Replace and be happy you managed to find some decent gear on Orion Face.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Even the beer?

(FWIW, I tend to only climb with people more experienced than me, so if they fail at removing it I assume it's because they had weak baby hands and didn't want to hit the nut key hard enough. Reminds me, I need to get a large hex to hit nut keys with; the last solution I found was to have a friend on the ground clove hitch a huge rock to the end of the rope whilst I'm sitting on prussic that I could haul up).

In reply to Fredt: Buy him/her a replacement and feel positive that it was a relatively cheap trip

IIRC Scorpion on Carn Etchachan cost me well over £200, if not £300. The final tally was; a stuck DMM bulldog, a dropped Rockcentric plus wiregate, an over-cammed size 3 DMM 4CU irretrievably jammed, a shredded Terra Nova Ultra Quasar flysheet and three broken tent poles

In reply to The Ex-Engineer: You're not kidding, that is expensive. Was there no room in the Hutchinson?

In reply to Fredt: With so many questions there are conditions to the answer.
Recently I climbed with someone who never got his gear or rope out but only climbed on my gear (Not anymore, very quickly got wise) He was hopeless at placing gear, usually placing it when he realised he was about to fall, so it was slammed in and swung on. I am, fortunately quite good at extracting gear, but do not doubt for a minute that if the gear had been stuck he would not have offered to replace it.
If it is my fault gear is 'lost' I offer to replece it. If it is one of those 'climbing incidents', I offer to go halves. I expect climbing partners to do the same, and now outline my thoughts to all prospective partners. I would usually turn down offers to replace or go halves, as do my current climbing friends. If others don't like this arrangement they are welcome to go climb with someone else.

In reply to Fredt: If it were reversed and you dropped your own gear would you expect your mate to pay for your mistake... Cough up .... It's the right thing to do ;0)

In reply to Blue Straggler:
>.....then you pay for the screw.

You always pay for it one way or the other.....

In reply to Fredt:

I've always advocated 50/50, straight down the line, regardless of circumstance. It's a team game and if my pal has stupidly dropped his cam in the sea it's because we used his rack and thus protected my cams from being stupidly dropped in the sea.

Unfortunately quite a few climbing partners have had trouble with this.

In reply to Fredt:

youd replace it if you wanted to climb with me again, just as id replace anything i lost of yours.

a $7 biner is one thing, a $50 screw is another.

In reply to Fredt:
In my opinion you dropped it you replace it.
If you had to retreat from the route and abandon the kit (except for tat or gear that you are looking to retire) you go halves

your mate didn't fumble the gear, you did.

In reply to Fredt:

50/50 it's gotta be! decent climbing mates are hard to come by

In reply to Fredt:
The climbing partnership is just that - shared risks, shared emotions, shared success - A partnership. Halfs all the way. That said my regualar partner and I have an understanding after all these years, one brings the ropes the other brings the rack then we alternate. Wear and tear is evened out across everything then and if anything gets lost or stuck whoevers gear it is just replaces it thinking that on balance, over several years, an equal amount of gear gets lost/stuck and costs get evened out. Casual partners for the odd route off UKC as I do from time to time then its 50/50.
Who are all these nutters dropping BD turbos anyway?!

In reply to Fredt:

I would replace it asap but.
If it were a climbing partner who is very well off financially and i do know a few,then i'd only offer to replace it bat my eyelashes a bit then check his reaction in the hope that he would offer to replace it himself.This approach does work in many situations .

In reply to Tim Sparrow:




For the avoidance of doubt, no replacement required!