UKC

No not an invitation to debate the grade of 3 Pebble Slab for the umpteenth time, rather an attempt to identify a selection of routes that genuinely sit on the cusp of a grade:
e.g.
HS/VS Wrecker's Slab
VS/HVS Knight's Move/Laughing Cavaliers
HVS/E1 3 Pebble Slab/Cemetery Gates
E2/E3 The Butcher
What other lines hover on the borderline?

In reply to The Ivanator:

Knight's Move is VS its not a cusp route

In reply to The Ivanator:

I'd say Wreckers borders on the Severe/VS border !

Red Edge is another classic HVS/E1 borderline as is Chequers Crack

In reply to The Ivanator:

Ricochet Wall at Shooters Nab is a classic E0. (or HVS in my opinion, but let's not go there!)

In reply to The Ivanator: There's been some debate about the merits of a mild VS grade over the years. Zelda, for example, has been both in its time but seems to have settled at HS. At Stanage, Paradise Wall is now HS but has previously been VS. There's an HS 4c at Sennen (Vertical Crack), which is a grade that only makes sense once you've done it.

I'm sure there are many more MVS is (or used to be) a popular grade in the Lakes, I think.

T.

In reply to The Ivanator:
peapod is hvs/E1

In reply to The Ivanator:

The Moon E1/2
Creeping Lemma E2/3
The Link HVS/E1
Astral Stroll E1/2
Deep Space HVS/E1
Whit's End Direct E1/2
Legacy VS/HVS
Absent Friends E2/3

In reply to The Ivanator: Every route I ever do is on the cusp of a grade. If I find it easy I think it's overgraded, if I find it hard I think it's undergraded. If I can't get up it I think it's a sandbag.

In reply to The Ivanator: Sorry, but I can't help it.

TPS is HVS. It's not hard enough or scary enough for E1. It's not even near it. Sorry.

In reply to BolderLicious: Sorry for the double post here, but missed this bit. Peapod is HVS. It's safe as houses. Just bl*ody 'ard combined with an unusual technique.

In reply to The Ivanator: I'm not sure Wrecker's Slab's really that borderline? It's dead easy, but pretty serious - run outs, hollow-sounding bits, the general situation... There must be lots of technically harder HS routes but none that I've done feel close to WS as a proposition.

In reply to ianstevens: Agree - brutal and weird routes is what HVS is all about

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Someone will be along shortly to bite. FWIW though, I agree.


I've always assumed it is graded for the first third being wet. If its freakishly dry, then maybe it could feel that easy. Unless of course you mean Inner Space.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Flying Buttress Direct. I'm taking E1 though.

In reply to jonny2vests: Bog off, that's HVS aswell.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Deep Space was bone dry when I did it. Cracking route, especially in those conditions.

I was going to say Rock Idol VS/HVS, but I think to be fair it is in the middle of HVS. Also The Strand HVS/E1? But The Mincer E2/3.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Altar Crack Rivelin VS/E2

In reply to The Ivanator:
Goliath's Groove on the cusp of HS/VS.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Nonsuch E1/2

Too Much E3/4

In reply to The Ivanator:
Broken Crack (Froggatt) / The File (Higgar) VS / HVS

In reply to The Ivanator:

Diabaig Pillar is E2 on the cusp of HVS.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The File is VS, but

Broken Crack, The Crank, Rainbow Crack VS/E1

Hen Cloud Eliminate HVS/E2

In reply to The Ivanator:

Scoop Wall f6b/+

In reply to The Ivanator:

Seams the Same is on the cusp of HVS.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Broken Crack is awkward, but nowhere near E1 and The Crank is easier than The File (albeit with a technically harder move to get off the ground).

And The Strand isn't HVS, you sandbagging bastard!

In reply to ianstevens:

Rubbish. VDiff max you big girl.

(Which route are we talking about?)

In reply to victim of mathematics:


I guess it depends if you can climb a ladder of jugs for a long way without getting tired. I found it much easier than Hen Cloud Eliminate, The Mincer etc.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Oh how the mighty fall. When I did it The Strand it earned you a fair amount of kudos. In fact wasn't it the route that Drummond said wouldn't be repeated for a long time? I seem to recall it being well deserving of it's E2 5b grade.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Me too. An unholy romp.

In reply to GridNorth:

Maybe it's grown some holds. I thought it was a total gift.

In reply to GridNorth:

Same adj grade as Aardvark next door? Having a laugh.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Flying Buttress Direct?

In reply to Jon Stewart: Seems like I might have to go back and repeat it with modern gear.

In reply to ianstevens:

E1. Half way between The Link and The Tippler. Slightly harder than 5.9 Finish.

In reply to The Ivanator:

VS/HVS Baron's Wall

In reply to ianstevens:

Oh, fair enough. You might have meant Inner Space. Whilst I respect your opinion, maybe come back when you've done about 500 of each grade

In reply to The Ivanator: Footless Crow Direct E6/7

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Actually I thought 5.9 was harder, I had to do some proper swinging on that roof to reach the last holds.

In reply to jonny2vests:

I think 5.9 is a harder moved, but it's only one if you can reach the hold and you place the gear before. On FBD you can get pumped solid placing the gear and shitting yourself while you do so. And then climb up a bit but be too pumped to do the long reach. Then climb down a bit and slump into the dangle of shame, never to regain your dignity.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Agreed, its a great route but the runout on the first pitch is long and airy and not of the most solid of rock.

In reply to The Ivanator: Chicken Run at Strathy Point is HVS 5a/E1 5b, worth the effort to find out for yourself.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Greta Gabro, probably more E3 than E2
Blackened Tantrums - HVS/E1
I wanted to phone Homer - E4/E5

In reply to The Ivanator: I've always found that there are a lot of E3s that are really E4s and vice versa -

Bloody Sunday, E3/4, given E4.
Jetrunner E3/E4, given E4.
Tippler Direct E3/4, given E3, but harder than Jetrunner (especially hard for the short non-thugs!)
Lyme Cryme E3/4, almost as hard as Flaky Wall, and much bolder. Given E3.

Darius E2/3
Billy Whiz E2/3
The Rasp E2/3

Desperation E1/E2
The Strait Gate E1/2
The Strand E1/2
The Mincer HVS/E2

In reply to DaveHK:

E1 5a/b?

In reply to Joughton:

I reckon Darius is solid E3, defo the same grade as Perseus and technically harder. It's a great route to have at E2 though, a line in sand or whatever.

In reply to The Ivanator:
Master of Reality E6/7 6c, most stuff at Hen Cloud actually!!
Pleasure Dome E3/4 5c
Bloody Sunday E3/4 6a
The Sloth HVS/E1
Sturgeon in the Cupboard F7b+/7c
West Side Story Fb 7b+/7c
The Storm Fb 7b+/7c

Plenty more!

Always thought Downhill Racer at Froggatt seemed to be in the E4/5 category??

In reply to The Ivanator:
Agree with Darius, that's a good one!

Definitely not Tippler direct though, that's a path at E3!!!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Is saying The Moon is only E1/2 the new 'black' of cock waiving?

All I can say, is that anyone who thinks it is only E1/2 should be good enough to onsight E5!

In reply to Goucho:

Well I did try to balance things with various upgrades as well as downgrades in order to avoid that accusation.

If it's sensibly graded E3, perhaps you can explain the following:

a) It's exactly the same in style, difficulty and seriousness as Astral Stroll which is graded E1 (but is certainly tough at that grade).

b) Creeping Lemma at E2/3 climbs the crux of The Moon in reverse. It also has a horrible/weird/scary stopper move before you get to the Moon crux, and then an additional 5c crux afterwards. On CL, the crux of The Moon is the only bit of nice, sensible climbing where you can relax.

Is it possible that when you did it, there was some loose rock left on the route, and it wasn't plastered in chalk? Once you know exactly where you're going (because you're following some nice big white holds) and you have a few small cams it's not technically hard (it's 5b) and it's not bold. It is 'out there' but so is Astral Stroll, perhaps more so.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Meshach -VS/HVS
Scratch Arete VS/HVS
Merlin Direct VS/HVS

In reply to Joughton:
If you arent careful, you are going to persude me to get on flaky wall!

Jon S, you clearly cant jam for toffee, and you dont half talk some shit, but I agree the Strand is a path

PS. Ive never been on yellow wall but had always assued The Moon was 'softer' than the likes of astroll stroll in more ways than one...is this in fact a vicious rumour to keep the masses away?

In reply to Jon Stewart: I think Astrol Stroll is actually worth E2, however, I still think The Moon is overall more sustained at an overall higher grade.

As for Creeping Lema, it may have some fragile (downright loose when I did it) rock in places, but it's basically 4c climbing, with one awkward 5b move, and one 5c move - I personally think reversing the crux of Moon is easier.

Of course I did it pre-cams, and there were one or two areas of suspect rock (more fragile than loose really) and it wasn't plastered in chalk, so I will concede that these two factors may affect the grade. However, I still think it's worth bottom end E3 - it's certainly not remotely E1, or even soft E2 IMHO.

In reply to The Ivanator:

I don't reckon Wrecker's Slab is that loose, the first bit is quite bold though.

Anyway,
Comes the Dervish E1/2/3
If the Pillar is E1/2 then so is Desolation Row, hmm maybe a smidgin harder.

I reckon Dervish/Pillar/Desolation are all practically the same route as it goes.

In reply to Si dH:


The rock's fine. The rest of Yellow Wall is a rotten sandpit, but The Moon is perfectly solid. It's so popular, you just follow a spectacular and unlikely line of big, positive white holds across the cliff in a mind-boggling situation. It's incredible.

I thought Red Wall would be similar, but there was no chalk on that because the rock (sorry, sand) doesn't stay there for long enough.


Nope, it's just the wrong grade. Go and do Flytrap (E2 5b, apparently) and the The Moon and see which you think is the horror show.

In reply to neuromancer:

Government Health Warning!!! Ignore this poster's advice...

In reply to Joughton:

Tippler Direct is E2/3!!!

In reply to The Ivanator: Finale at Shepherd's HVS/E1.

Also the triple HVS/E1s at Wimberry? Freddies, Trident and Blue Lights Crack.

In reply to The Ivanator:
Cumbelloe at Carn Barra, graded HS4b, i would give it VS (possibly HVS).

Lord Falmouth at Roche Rock, UKC gives it HVS,Rockfax gives it E1. There is a short section of bold, thin and "balancy" moves with little/no pro and a certain ground fall. The rest is easy.

In reply to Jon Stewart fbd : dangle of shame age 17, decent whip with v cold hands at 25, then another dangle.seconding... Then the wife sniggering

The hen cloud hvs session was maybe last years best day on grit.

Well protected sustained e2 is defined by the strand.

In reply to Gus:


Yeah, I figured it might feel like Brown's slab but with a couple of actual moves. Respect to any E4 leader that onsights it.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Samson's Arête - E3/4. I had a tough time on that thing 10 years ago. I'm better at granite now its local though, maybe I should go for a retest.

In reply to Skip:

Na Lord Falmoth was never E1 in reality, it's HVS in the new definitive. I think whoever graded it E1 in the old definitive must have forgot their rps that day and Rockfax was just maintaining the status quo.

There's no way you would deck if you place the (two?) bomber micros. It's a bit balancy, but you can work it all out before you commit and by the time you latch the just the gear is only about a foot below your waist.

It's easy HVS, nearer VS than E1.

In reply to Southern Man:
Hot rod hard for vs, infact many routes on Lundy are tough for the grade.
The 2 7a's at brean are very soft.
No one mentioned a certain slipstones hvs, though well known and probably given a boulder grade these days.
Looning the tube is e0.
Cuttings is the home of sport sandbags. But they are often good for it.

In reply to alasdair19:

Fantastic routes when you can lead E2, but a humiliating kick in the nuts for an HVS leader.


FTFY

In reply to Kevster:


Would that be HVS on the cusp of V7?

In reply to Pekkie:
I'm not overrun with experience by any means, but there are trainstopper midsize nut placemets every two feet, every placement is a hands-free rest and it's a ladder of toe placements.

For what it's worth, a good friend of mine decided to solo the left crack, seamstress, accidentally soloed seams the same and didn't even notice until he was told in the pub a day later.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

So true

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Altar crack - an honest gritstone VS !

In reply to The Ivanator: I think a lot of these 'bordeline' routes depend on the individuals strength and weakness.... these grades can only ever be a rough guide.

In reply to GrahamD:

I wouldn't buy a used car off it!

I was with you so far Jon, until this:

The Mincer E2/3.

Which is grit HVS 5b, FA J Brown. A grade that exists outside the continium of the current grading system and therefore correctly graded.

In reply to GrahamD: Not even close to the hardest VS layback on grit either. Shows some folk lack required technique I guess.

In reply to Max factor:

I agree with that. I like the idiosyncrasies of the system, I just think it's a joke when people pretend that it's objective or sensible.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
I tend to think there is a lot of climbing at HVS 5b on grit that would be considered solid E1 5b elsewhere.

In reply to Offwidth:
OK I've only seconded Altar Crack but TBH I though it was more easy to mid HVS than hard VS. Still borderline either way IMO.

There is easier HVS climbs out there, even easier HVS laybacks - I must admit I generally don't grade push on sustained clean lay back cracks though just because it can be a bit of a bitch getting gear in.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I agree up to a point. I think that if you climb on grit on a regular basis you get into the feel of it. I learned to climb on grit and found the grades to be OK but I will admit that when I haven't climbed on it for a while the grades feel tough. Possibly tougher that on other rock type transitions. At least for me that is.

In reply to GridNorth:
Its weird I find grit VS (normally) a bit easier that a lot of rock types - especially Eastern grit, but the HVS climbs are another matter! Some are fine and others I struggle to second!

In reply to CurlyStevo: I know of a few HVDiffs that have stopped Extreme climbers dead in their tracks on their first grit visits.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Which grit HVS laybacks were easier as a matter of interest? I can't think of any where the layback bit is the crux; even the bottom end HVS Agony Crack (which is harder moves but shorter). Of course Beech Layback and Downes' Crack (Curbar/Froggatt) or Green Crack and Black Crack (Black Rocks) show how hard these things can be at VS.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Grit's just really daft and often annoying. An E3 might have one move you could easily do if it was off the deck, but sadly, it's 10ft above a ledge. On the other hand, an HVS might have 10 consecutive moves you can barely do, but gear all the way.

In reply to Offwidth:
So I agree the hardest move of agony crack is harder but as a whole climb I must admit I'm pretty sure I found it easier to lead than second Altar crack!

I agree its not really a good comparison though, Altar crack is a fairly sustained fairly consistent clean layback crack agony crack isn't.

I was thinking of an HVS at Rosyth quary "The Waullie" but there again it's not really like for like as laybacks go.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I would agree grit HVS 5b can be a really tough grade, especially the more traditional types!
Jon

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've climbed some easier E1's in scotland; doesn't mean they are the right grade though. In my grit guidebook view of the VS/HVS border the big name layback climbs all seemed to fit in the right order. Also Altar isn't so sustained: from a good half-rest you jam and place gear as high as you can then blast up on layback with the crux sequence to a poor half-rest (foot break right wall a few feet above the pro), more gear, then easier to another, better, half rest above and an optional escape right.

In reply to Offwidth:
Yeah I though the 'rests' were pretty obvious on Altar crack, the main problem was pump rather than technicality for me. The poor half rest I saw as more of a gear placing / removal opportunity than a place to regain strength

In reply to Joughton:

I may be the only one, but I thought bloody sunday was fair at E4. Its harder than test case which is probably the hardest E3 I've done at pembroke, and bloody sunday is way harder than Star wars. Its probably similar difficulty to flaky wall if you ask me.

Out of the Blue - Sharpnose = E1/E2

In reply to The Ivanator:
The Rut Dunkeld VS / HVS (although I do think its VS)

In reply to snoop6060:

Nice to hear. I seconded BS and didn't like it much (big slimy holds that neeed the juice squeezing out of them not in order not to fall off), but thought Star Wars looked amazing and much more my cup of tea. It looks really scary, but if the climbing's ok it could be a good candidate for me to try this summer.

Rebels Groove Hawkcraig VS / HVS (just OK at VS)
Red Flag Limekilns VS / HS (should be HS)
Forbidden Colours Limekilns HVS / VS (only just about maybe HVS for the start if no side runners or side holds are used)

Humbug limekilns VS/HS (probably HS)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I 2nd both last summer. Star wars without falling off, and thought I could see myself leading it one day, lots of 5c with no good rests. I really struggled on bloody sunday, needed several rests, pulled on some gear and couldn't see how I could even 2nd in clean.

In reply to JimmyKay: If you're small and weak like me, it feels nails! You're obviously just a thug

In reply to The Ivanator:
Fairhead - Aoife E1/2
Ocean Boulevard - E2/E3 - Not much harder than The Brasser which is a brute at E2

Mournes - Moto Psycho Nightmare VS/HVS. Now given HVS
Mournes - Afterbirth HVS/E1

In reply to The Ivanator: Pointless as it's so subjective and what does it matter; hard E3 often feels easier than soft E4 for example (that's totally subjective obviously). Far more constructive and instructive to think of it as a continuum. By the way Butcher is E3

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Other than a slightly bold move or two at the bottom, it's not scary at all - very good gear every few moves all the way up. I can't work out how it's worth E4 at all - miles easier and less serious than Sunlover, for instance.

From the sort of stuff I've seen you talk about on here, I think you'll love it. Get on it!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Jon, I think you'd be ok with star wars. Its very exposed but 95% is safe as houses, if a little run out in places. The bottom is the commiting bit, but there is a single bomber wire. It feels commiting as thats the only gear for what I thought was a sketchy move (my tall mate thought this move was piss mind). You know its bomber in your head, but you also know that if it rips, your in the drink and probably in a bit of trouble (when the sea is raging like was when I was on it). After that its steady but not massively blessed with rests. Gear is bomber. Its also nowhere near as steep as it looks from across the headland, its pretty much a slab.

In reply to Pagan:
Thats certainly true. Not as good either, sunlover is a great route. I thought star wars was actually a bit overated (the exposure is ace, the climbing is a bit boring). Sunlover is much more likely to leave you with two casts on your legs though!

In reply to The Ivanator:

Crinoid (Telegraph Hole) - E1/E2
Aviation (Hay Tor Lowman) - HVS/E1
Crazy Streak (Marsland) - HVS/E1
Triton (Daddyhole Main Cliff) - VS/HVS Top moves harder than one tough move on the neighbouring Gates of Eden VS

In reply to Will Cat:
Feel that Triton is well graded at VS 5a - only a few moves of 5a at the very top, with good gear there too - HVS 5a would suggest it's more sustained across the whole route.

Crinoid was upgraded in the Rockfax SW guide, but definitely no 5c on it. Run-out 5b climbing seems to settle it at E2 5b.

First pitch of Aviation seemed HVS to me, with the run-outs on the second pitch making it E1 overall.

I guess with all of these in-between routes, substituting appropriate grades - if you are a regular HVS climber, it will feel like E1, and if you are a regular E1 climber, it will feel HVS...

In reply to The Ivanator: Fay, Lower Sharpnose - E4/5.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Personally, I feel that Belle Vue Bastion is only just VS 4c...

In reply to JdotP:

Felt like HS to me with modern gear (would have been VS with old style pro) ditto with Grey Slab. Munich felt like a harder VS but is now HVS??? It's also unsurprising that at Severe in Snowdonia there are starred routes that feel a lot harder than these soft touch VS climbs (and not just Monolith Crack)!

In reply to Offwidth:

In the old days BVB was always regarded as low in the grade (I think graded Mild VS in one guidebook?), and Munich high in the grade, but never HVS.

In reply to Papillon:

Annoyingly true. Or just all steep routes are undergraded...

In reply to jayjackson:

Fair point for Triton. Lead with leg-shaking hangover so could explain shakes.

Guess I feel that top pitch of Aviation feels well-protected, with what feels like one tricy move.

Like discussing them here, but would always take the higher one in my log book.

In reply to Will Cat:

I don't think the top pitch of Aviation is well-protected at all! I note that you seconded that pitch - perhaps your memory of it would be a bit different if you'd led it?

In reply to bpmclimb: A mistake in my log book - lead the second pitch. Happy to have my rather selective memory knocked though. Felt there was a reasonable bit of pro as you move up from the belay, protecting a kind of reachy move through the difficulties. Hve done it in one pitch since and found the traverse more sketchy.

I guess this is just more support for the fact that a lot depends on the day and your strengths at that time. Second time had been bouldering a reasonable amount on granite. First time I was nervous, but just put that down to my usual disposition.

In reply to bpmclimb: I chucked something around about where your partner's left foot is in your picture of the route. Sorry - digressing from thread topic.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I agree, the first pitch is well protected and pretty easy. The second pitch hard move off of the belay then sketching up the runnel with little gear and still less to come.

I threaded some soil IIRC!