/ Leg Layering

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Milesy - on 17 Jan 2013
To mods: I have posted this in here is it makes more sense to be seen by winter climbers, who not all see or use the gear section.

At present I wear my decathlon soft shells straight over my legs and a cheapish pair of berghaus waterproofs. My legs are always baltic and it makes winter days out unenjoyable if standing about.

I wanted a new pair of bright trousers for new year motivation. I got a pair of the Millet Pro K GTX salopettes.

http://www.millet.fr/en/products/spring-summer-2012-catalog/mens-pants/k-pro-gtx-pant

Now they are just a really good hard shell layer with crampon patches, and various reinforced sections. They have full leg zips for taking on and off and also for venting.

The waist is very high and perfect for tucking everything in and out of the way of the harness - I find the decathlon softshells not very good for this and the waist is always in the way of my harness and end up with exposed midriff somehow.

My question is how best to add some layers to this. I am not sure how much warmth the GTX will keep in by itself. Would I get away with merino wool long johns alone (I have never really worn a base or thermal layer. Or should I take the braces off the softshells and wear them under? I am not sure whether the softshells and the new harshells might be a bit restrictive of movement.

Any suggestions appreciated.
wee jamie on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: I live in my Powerstretch bottoms right through the winter. I do suffer from the cold a fair bit, so need a decent base layer, and Powerstretch is superb.
Daleswear have North Cape ones on special here for 20 - I've bought two pairs already, might even get some more because 20 is very good.
Here's the website - http://www.daleswear.co.uk/?action=shop.detail&product=north-cape-powerstretch-pants

Cheeeeeeeers, Jamie
Milesy - on 17 Jan 2013
Thanks Jamie. What other layers do you wear these with?
CurlyStevo - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:
It depends what you will walk in wearing. I think these trousers are going to be too hot for many walk ins. If this is the case Id wear soft shell trousers with baselayer for the walk in and then chuck these on once you start climbing.

If however you find you can walk in wearing them I suggest trying fleece trousers underneath with options of differing base layers depending on weather.
Denni on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

For winter I have a pair of Mammut soft-shell trousers and some Lowe Alpine long johns underneath and carry full leg zip lightweight waterproofs. These troos:

http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/102004032_v_0001_98/Haute-Route-Pants-Men.html

If I get too hot they have side vents and I've only ever been a wee bit cold in them and that's only when I stop. Saying that, I do more walking, lower level gullies these days rather than winter climbing so these may not be ideal except on drier days.
niallk on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

I wear Powerstretch (I think - thick stretchy stuff) leggings below these. Sometimes hardshell goes on at car park (if a bit grim), sometimes at gearing up point.

Did you consider wearing thermal leggings under you soft-shell? I find this plus a pair of un-cool gaiters to protect from crampons works fine on drier (and sometimes colder) days.
MG - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: Are your new trousers lined? I find just a thin nylon liner to waterproofs makes a huge difference to comfort and warmth. With softshell underneath I am always cosy. With unlined waterproofs this is not the case.
CurlyStevo - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Denni:
> (In reply to Milesy)
>
> For winter I have a pair of Mammut soft-shell trousers and some Lowe Alpine long johns underneath and carry full leg zip lightweight waterproofs. These troos:
>
> http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/102004032_v_0001_98/Haute-Route-Pants-Men.html
>
> If I get too hot they have side vents and I've only ever been a wee bit cold in them and that's only when I stop. Saying that, I do more walking, lower level gullies these days rather than winter climbing so these may not be ideal except on drier days.

I found with my Gtx trousers with side vents that you still get sweaty even when venting during the walk in if you are wearing enough leg layers to stay warm on belays.

I find the key to staying comfortable winter climbing is to not get unduely sweaty, once this has happened you will get cold when you stop.
Milesy - on 17 Jan 2013
I can walk in with my vented softshells (without any base layer) and be absolutely perfect if no wind or rain, even if rather cold. I think my GTX ones even when vented would be uncomfortable if layered over my softshells.

So walk in is:
* sofshells and base layer.
* or harshells and base / fleece layer.

The main unknown just now is just hot the GTX will be.

Let me ask:

If side by side I wore GTX against just a baselayer compared to just softshells against skin. What would be warmer?
CurlyStevo - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

depends if you allow for venting.

In anycase when moving I think the GTX with base layer will be warmer / sweatier without venting than the soft shells with baselayer. When still I think they will be colder than softshells (both with baselayer)
Denni on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

As above.

I used to detest walking a long distance or uphill with a base layer and a Goretex shell, even vented i used to feel hot and sweaty. As I said above with regards to soft-shell and a base layer, only feel the cold a wee bit when I stop. I could be stopped for a while but I've never been uncomfortably cold.

If I know it is going to be dry and Baltic and I'm planning to stop for an extended period of time, I have some army issue primaloft over trios that compress right down. Complete overkill to walk in but if I'm stopped for a while, I can zip them on and I'm toasty.
wee jamie on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:
> Thanks Jamie. What other layers do you wear these with?

I wear the Decathlon Simond/Quechua Bionnassay softshell pants like yourself. That combo does everything apart from very wet conditions - for which I'll stick a pair of very light shell pants in my bag, if the forecast looks dodgy.
I've also got a bomb-proof pair of Patagonia shell pants for long-distance multi-day trips in winter when I must keep dry, and the powerstretch go under those too.
CarolineMc - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: I wear softshells with some powerdry tights underneath them if I'm pretty sure it's going to be reasonable weather all day (showers / light snow etc).

But if it's going to be grimmer then I'll start out in gore (or eVent) winter overtrousers and usually just have powerstretch fleece tights under them. I also have a pair of cheap microfleece Decathlon trousers which are a bit looser but only cost 10 and I often wear those instead of the power stretch as they're just as warm. If it's really baltic though, I'll put some thin leggins or 3/4 thermals on under the cheap micro fleece trousers, under the hard-shells. The three layers are toasty - as proved in windy, snowy, beyond freezing cold cairngorm shizzle over the last couple of days! Co:
iksander on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: Unless it's rainy and windy, it looks like you can unzip the millet trousers from hip to ankle and let them flap (or if they're 2 way zips, open up a gash from hip to knee) while you're sweating themn zip up for the route. You might find that you get on better with 2 thin underlayers rather than one thick layer. Sometimes I wear 3/4 length powerdry strides with M&S cycle shorts style kecks underneath to keep your crown jewels warm - a bit of extra insulation for bucket belays
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to iksander:
Personally for walking I find having the legs flap irritating, whilst only opening from hip to knee often to too hot / sweaty.
ice.solo - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

Right now at 3000m on fuji in insane weather (-21, 95km winds).

Wearing powershield trousers with powerdry base and power dry boxers. Toasty.
Fultonius - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: I'm not quite sure why you were wearing softshell under the hardshells in the first place? Fleece is always going to be more breathable, lighter and cheaper than a softshell.

I use basic wicking leggings (Helly Lifa or Haglofs Dryskin) on warmer or more active days (ski touring, alpine climbing with few rests) and I wear my Rock & Run stretchy fleece bottoms when it's colder, or I'm stopping more often. (-15c ski days, ice climbing, winter climbing).

I pretty much never wear hardshells (unless it's raining) but I doubt the top layer makes a lot of difference (use use Patagonia Backcountry Guide Pants)
Milesy - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Fultonius:

I have the softshells because they were cheap, comfy, have braces, crampon patches and on good weather (or not too cold) days are warm. When it is windy though or colder I need to chuck my cheap waterproof over the softshells which arent warm.

The hardshells I got are brand new. Not worn them.
Fultonius - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: I reckon if you had a fleece layer under the softshells you'd probably rarely put on the hardshells.

Now, since you've just splashed the cash on a decent pair of hardshells, the next best option will probably be head out in a pair of stretchy base layer leggings and your softshell pants, then chuck on your GTX in the coire when gearing up. I reckon you'll be plenty warm in that combo.

Should be able to get some H/H lifas for 25 or so. Powerstretch is also great stuff but a fair bit warmer and more expensive.
Milesy - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Fultonius:

The softshells got soaked through in driving wind and sleet plus they were slightly too short for me and I didnt like the waist on them. With the cheap waterproofs on I lost the crampon patches.

Plus they look cool as hell.

thanks everyone.
Paul Crusher R - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to wee jamie: nice one jamie, barrrgiinn, just replaced my old pair.
These under shells, all you ever need. With an extra thermal under these if it gets a bit parky. Soft shell pants never make sense to me in winter for routes, usual little/no insulation, not fully waterproof. Skiing/touring, summer alpine yes, but foreign ice, on the ben or in the lakes/wales im not convinced.
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Paul R:
I think soft shell trousers are great for Scottish winter, even if you only use them for the walkin and then chuck water proofs over the top. It keeps the wind out for that and stops the snow sticking.
Robert Durran - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to wee jamie:
> > Daleswear have North Cape ones on special here for 20 - I've bought two pairs already, might even get some more because 20 is very good.


Awesome. Thanks for the tip off. Just ordered 3 pairs!
In reply to CarolineMc:
> I also have a pair of cheap microfleece Decathlon trousers which are a bit looser but only cost 10

I have the same tenner micro fleece troos from Decathlon, for me they are a trim fit and one of the best ten quids I've spent. Under goretex, over a base layer they keep my legs warm in the coldest conditions (-20 or so).

Milesy, I find with just merino long johns under my goretex pants they are surprisingly warm. For Finnish ice climbing I generally either do that or wear softshells with one layer under them. I add a second layer (the microfleece) if it's below -10.
Denni on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to wee jamie)
> [...]
>
>
> Awesome. Thanks for the tip off. Just ordered 3 pairs!


Plus 1!
Jamie B - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

Another vote for powerstretch - I wear them under lined hardshell pants and have never had cold legs.
ads.ukclimbing.com
ali_colquhoun - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy: Meggings: Practical and cool.

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