/ Bristol climbers with dogs - WARNING

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tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
Just a quick warning to all bristol dog owning climbers.

Be aware, 5 dogs have died from deliberate poisoning at kingsweston house/kingsWeston down. This is on the same estate as trym valley gorge.

Cheers

a local climber/dog owner
EeeByGum - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay: A former colleague put out a similar warning in the local paper about dog owners walking along, and shitting on the private road in front of his house. It had the desired effect and dog walkers stopped using it over night. Classic!
JH74 - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: Dog owners shitting outside someone's house? That's rank!
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

No, this is a real warning!

Local vets sending warning letters to their clients.

Its an honest public announcement, not a joke.
a lakeland climber on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

There was a case over in Yorkshire last year where a number of dogs died in mysterious circumstances. Turned out to be Strycchenine.

ALC
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

vets letters say its anti freeze contaminated meat.

Sick bastards, so they are, whoever it is.

It pisses me off that you try and do a service to other climbers and certain people, not yersen, make light of it.

It's getting to the point that next time i am topping out on a multi pitch and night and rain are closing in, when someone below on another asks if i can lower a rope to get them up quick. I am gonna ask do you post on UKC? if they answer yes, I'll just say right so, and piss off to the pub and leave them to it.

We turned out on of vaynol arms one night to search for a woman swept away. Not sure id abandon my pint anymore. I'll have to get my list out and ask if they post on UKC as.....
Bimble on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

The same goes for Abergavenny/surrounding areas, as some sick f*ck is leaving nail-filled sausages around for dogs to eat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21043662
estivoautumnal - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)

>
> if they answer yes, I'll just say right so, and piss off to the pub and leave them to it.

>
And if the roles are reversed and they ask you the same question? No pub for you.

JH74 - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Sorry about that other post of mine there, lost myself for a minute.

I am a dog owner, although not local to you, and this is obviously a dreadful and nasty business. Credit to you for reporting it here. I did a quick search and it seems that there's been a few problems with regard to dangerous dogs in the place you mentioned. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

Anyway, apologies.
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:

i really don't care. I do what i do and couldn't give a flying whether help is coming or not.
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to JH74:

that's no worries bud.

Its not a joke to the old lady whose dog has been her family and constant companion that has wound up dead. Its the end of her companion, security. Nor for the other 4 dog owners and their families.
Tall Clare - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

It's horrendous, this poisoning of pets. Yes, I know some dog owners are irresponsible, but as you say, a lot of pets are people's companions. There's someone round my way shooting cats with an air rifle, and there are also reports of antifreeze poisoning, though those latter aren't so clear cut as to whether they're deliberate or accidental - apparently cats will lick up antifreeze spilt on driveways as it tastes sweet.
JH74 - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Must be awful, really. My mooch got sick last year and it was utterly crushing. We all fell apart. Honestly don't know what I was thinking above, what a dick, sorry.

I just don't know who would do this..
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
it seems that there's been a few problems with regard to dangerous dogs in the place you mentioned. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I don't think it does. Its all pretty hard living council estates out this way. People keep big dogs to keep burglars and bailiffs out of their homes.

I have an alsatIan and a 10 stone American bulldog mastiff cross. Lots of guard dogs round here, never heard of a savaging.

Just some sick individual getting their kicks i reckon.
JH74 - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Is the area a spot where people en masse don't pick up after their dogs maybe? Might it be some militant who has had enough of dog shit in his/her area? Not that that's any justification but it's a theory..
Cú Chullain - on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Nasty stuff indeed, and the use of antifreeze, that causes a very painful drawn out death,
tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to JH74:
> (In reply to moraldecay)
>
> Is the area a spot where people en masse don't pick up after their dogs maybe? Might it be some militant who has had enough of dog shit in his/her area? Not that that's any justification but it's a theory..

I don't think that would explain it either. People round here are pretty good on cleaning up after their dogs, and tend to get grief off other local dog owners if they dont.

I don't think whoever is doing it is doing it for any rational reason. I think that level of lack of compassion and empathy displays a certain amount of emotional detachment.

tommycoopersghost on 25 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Anyway. Enough of the what's, where's, how's, and when's. All i wanted to do was alert other climbers to the risk at trym valley gorge. Job done.
xplorer on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Are you and your vet sure it isn't anti freeze from the gritters spreading. Ends up on the paws and they lick them because its sweet tasting to them
timjones - on 26 Jan 2013
How do the dogs get to consume the poison, a well-trained dog kept under close control shouldn't get the opportunity.
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Queenie - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to timjones:

Are you saying a well-trained dog shouldn't go off-lead? How far from the owner is it permitted to go? Bait could be concealed by long grass etc.
timjones - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to Queenie:
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> Are you saying a well-trained dog shouldn't go off-lead? How far from the owner is it permitted to go? Bait could be concealed by long grass etc.

No. I'm saying that a well-trained and under control dog will not get the opportunity to eat bait. How well the dog can be kept under control and therefore how far you can let it go away from you is down to you and how good your training is. Some dogs will need to stay on a lead and some will be able to range some distance from your owner. However I would say that under control should mean within your sight and that you should be capable of stopping it eating or drinking from random sources at any time. My dog will sniff at anything it finds and look to me before trying to eat it, a firm no will stop her.

As the OP says be aware. It's a useful reminder, but a responsible dog owner should be aware of their dog at all times whilst it is off the lead. A poisoned dog is a sure sign that something is amiss IMO.
Daysleeper - on 26 Jan 2013
Don't get confused between winter road treatment and anti-freeze.

The stuff spread on UK roads is a mix of salt (which basically changes the freeze point of water) and grit.
While a mouthful of salty rock isn't particularly pleasant it is not in the same league as actual anti-freeze (Ethylene glycol) when it comes to poisoning animals.
Run_Ross_Run - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Bit confused about this so if someone can explain.

So the dogs have eaten food that had been laced with some sort of poison?

If so how are these dogs able to eat this stuff, how have they been able to consume it?
xplorer on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to Daysleeper:

Trust me it contains anti freeze
Daysleeper - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Daysleeper)
>
> Trust me it contains anti freeze

Really, Why?
xplorer on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to Daysleeper:

Because I said so. Why wouldn't you believe me?
MJ - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to xplorer:

Trust me it contains anti freeze

If you count salt as being antifreeze, then yes it does: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride#Road_salt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7871816.stm
xplorer on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to MJ:

Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.

It contains anti freeze. Why is that so hard to understand. I'm stating facts, not some wiki pedia bullshxt
xplorer on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to MJ:

By the way MJ, them links you have posted have nothing to do with anti freeze in grit. So I don't know why you have taken the time to post them. Anti freeze is added after mining, it's not naturally present.

Anyway, what can't speak can't lie
Ridge - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Darren09:
> (In reply to moraldecay)
>
> If so how are these dogs able to eat this stuff, how have they been able to consume it?

Erm, at a wild guess they put it in their mouths, chew it a bit and swallow it?
AlisonSmiles - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to JH74:

I too figure it's probably retaliation. Poorly placed retaliation and not something nice at all but yes, someone who has reached the end of their tether with what may well be an irresponsible few who don't deal with their dog's excrement. Ah, the thoughts I harbour against the owners of cats who destroy my garden and make it smell of piss & shit, I can almost but not quite understand it. Personally I am content with the occasional water pistol mission ...
climber david - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to AlisonSmiles:

try this. its like an automated water pistol :L

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbkLjjlMV8

funny to watch as well

David
goose299 - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to xplorer:
But yet, you won't back this up. I forgot we're just meant to believe what a random on the internet says.

To the op, what an utter shame. I'm not a pet person but this is tragic
MJ - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to xplorer:

By the way MJ, them links you have posted have nothing to do with anti freeze in grit.

That's probably because they don't add antifreeze and therefore it was no point mentioning it in the articles I linked.
As you're so positive about this, why don't you post a definitive article that states that it does contain antifreeze.
camalins - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to goose299:

He won't back it up because it is not true.

If it were the case that antifreeze (ethylene glycol) were present in road grit you would think that

1. the RSPCA would mention it in their factsheet on rock salt poisoning - http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232731721372&mode=p...

2. the Environment Agency might have something to say about it given that the Health Protection Agency advice is to "Avoid Release into the environment" and "Inform the Environment Agency of any substantial releases" - http://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/ChemicalsAndPoisons/CompendiumOfChemicalHazards/EthyleneGlycol/.
Daysleeper - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to xplorer:

What facts?

The simple point is I don't believe you and ask "why" for two reasons.

Why should I trust you, do you have specific knowledge, perhaps you work in a council yard, are a chemist or have qualifications in the area.

But the important why, is why would you add ethylene glycol to road grit. It makes no economic or technical sense. In addition it is a pollutant and as such it's use should be controlled and I find it hard to see how a UK council would spray the stuff about in anything other than very unusual circumstances.

Now if you have EVIDENCE that supports your argument then you should put it up here. Then if the quality of your evidence is greater than mine people will be minded to believe you and ignore me.

Here is some of my evidence, the British Standard BS 3247: 1991 for anti-icing salt for highways makes no allowance for the inclusion of ethelyne-glycol.

How about... Bristol Council (says no anti-freeze in it's grit) https://twitter.com/BristolCouncil/status/293342153659256832

The environment agency report on de/anti-icing in the UK

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/PPTI_De_Icer.pdf

DfT standards for winter road treatment... pointing out that salt is effective down to -10. Glycol gets mentioned only once in the annex on severe weather specialist materials.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/ha/standards/nmm_rwsc/docs/nmm_part_5.pdf


So, to recap. Anti-freeze (Ethylene Glycol) poisoning is a real and very nasty way for animals to die. The main reason it is so dangerous is that it has a sweet taste and thus lethal quantities can be ingested before the animal stops consuming it. It is toxic and concentrated, about 100 ml will kill an adult human. (ref www.fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09400.htm)

Ethylene Glycol is (comparatively) fantastically expensive and un-nessesary in UK conditions making it unlikely to be used in bulk, unless you are de-icing an aeroplane.

Rock Salt is used on UK roads as an anti-icing treatment and in greater concentrations as a de-icer. At most it is about 40g /m^2. It does not have the same issues as E-G in terms of palatability or concentration. Interestingly the L/D 50 is quite low at only about 3000 mg/kg for rats (http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924972) Actually getting an animal to eat the L/D 50 is much harder for salt than for E-G where pools or containers of the fluid are an issue.
timjones - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Ridge:
> (In reply to Darren09)
> [...]
>
> Erm, at a wild guess they put it in their mouths, chew it a bit and swallow it?

I think we all know how dogs eat.

The question is how or why do their owners allow it to happen? If you don't know what your dog is eating you don't know what other mischief it is up to.
Ridge - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to timjones:
> (In reply to Ridge)
> [...]

> The question is how or why do their owners allow it to happen? If you don't know what your dog is eating you don't know what other mischief it is up to.

Depends on the dog, mine can wolf down a sheep turd without breaking stride, it's a very practiced, almost invisible head bob, carried out before you can evan say "Oi!". It will respond to leave when about to pick up a rotting sheep leg, but I can well envisage a tasty sausage being picked up, especially in long grass. To my mind this behaviour doesn't equate to having a dog that runs round slaughtering stock, which is what I think you're implying.
Run_Ross_Run - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to timjones:
> (In reply to Ridge)
> [...]
>
>
> The question is how or why do their owners allow it to happen? If you don't know what your dog is eating you don't know what other mischief it is up to.

Exactly the point!
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timjones - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Ridge:
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Depends on the dog, mine can wolf down a sheep turd without breaking stride, it's a very practiced, almost invisible head bob, carried out before you can evan say "Oi!". It will respond to leave when about to pick up a rotting sheep leg, but I can well envisage a tasty sausage being picked up, especially in long grass. To my mind this behaviour doesn't equate to having a dog that runs round slaughtering stock, which is what I think you're implying.

I was thinking of crapping all over the place which seems a more likely problem in this case.

As for a dogs ability to hoover something up without breaking stride this should be trained out of the dog at an early stage in its training IMO. Is better for the dog, the owner and just about everyone.
Ridge - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Darren09:
OK, you and tim win, when a dog is partially obscured by a gorse bush or tuft of marsh grass for half a second it could be setting a man trap or constructing a pit full of sharpened sticks to impale a sheep.
Ridge - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to timjones:
Re: training, agree and not an issue with pups, less easy with a couple of years old rescue, which is what we've got.
xplorer on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to moraldecay:

Regardless if grit has anti freeze or not, grit is still poisonous to dogs.

Would make a lot more sense than sombody poisoning dogs, people just love abit of drama, makes your life's that little bit more interesting for you.

Queenie - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Ridge:

Exactly, and for ex-strays...even more difficult.
timjones - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Queenie:
> (In reply to Ridge)
>
> Exactly, and for ex-strays...even more difficult.

You're quite right that it's harder to retrain older dogs. Sadly that means that you need to be all the more vigilant when out and about with them.

timjones - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Ridge:
> (In reply to Darren09)
> OK, you and tim win, when a dog is partially obscured by a gorse bush or tuft of marsh grass for half a second it could be setting a man trap or constructing a pit full of sharpened sticks to impale a sheep.

For crying out loud don't you get it. 5 dogs have died and there seems to be an elaborate theory about deliberate poisoning. Whatever the cause the sad fact is that none of them need have died if their owners had kept control over them :-(


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