In reply to Exile:
> (In reply to LakesWinter)
>
> My grades in order of difficulty for some of the classics:
>
> Central Gully Left Hand: III AGREE
> South East Gully, (taking the corner direct,): III, II/III
> Raven Crag Gully: III/IV AGREE
> Chock Gully: IV 5 AGREE
> Dove Crag Gully: IV/V 5 (see below)
> Great Gully, right hand finish: V 5 1 move gets 5
> Moss Ghyll: IV 5/6 Not done
> Steep Ghyll: V 5 AGREE - hats off to the FA. I thought this was a necky route.
Here's my thoughts on the Lakeland 'Wild card' routes. These routes can vary immensely, as let's face it, ice build up varies depending on snow amount, freeze-thaw cycles, wind direction and the nature of the bulges (no jokes please!)
West Waterfall gully? Lakeland IV (i.e. anywhere between IV and VI) It had a 5m section of vertical sheet of ice that was detached behind and only attached at either side with effectively no reasonable protection...
Inaccessible gully - seems to vary massively depending on ice build up, the nature of the bulges and how much you trust the gear! When I did it in 2009 (will try to post a photo) the ice column was bulging out at the top and very featured chandelier ice about 2ft wide. My Scottish mate who seconded said he couldn't of led it and he's solid on Scottish V. I haven't done a Scottish V that compares in difficulty/thinness. I would suggest V 6 in Feb 2009. So IV/V in the guidebook.
Dove Crag Gully - I could imagine that the first pitch could bank out a lot if the right amount of snow came on the right wind pattern and acutally be IV... However, I think the guidebook should be graded for most likely conditions rather than 'back in 63 this was...'. The 1st pitch had about 6m of plum vertical (if not steeper) with a couple of cm of ice and not thick enough for screws until you could rest you back against the side, therefore V,6. The second pitch bulged outward (not inward as in the picture linked above) with steep chandelier ice, so bridging was not really possible and supports my overall grading of IV/V. I did Clogwyn L branch (IV/V,5) the same season and DCG felt harder.
Let's face it, ice conditions can vary immensely and further supports the argument for split grades. DCG can occasionally be IV but more often is V, so IV/V in the guidebook seems fair. If guidebooks don't aim to provide the most accurate grade possible, then what's the point in them, you may aswell just get an OS map look at photos on the internet and get on with it. This would probably lead to much more MR call outs and then there'll be more media calls for limiting access to the hills.
So let's have some realistic grades that give people the best idea of what they may be about to climb! So concludes my essay
NMM