/ Got to love Saudi justice

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Cú Chullain - on 04 Feb 2013
Warning: Very graphic content http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/201323223618362435.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

Outrage after Saudi cleric kills daughter
Activists criticise 'blood money' ruling for cleric who raped and then tortured five-year-old daughter to death

Trangia - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

What a civilised society, an worthy trading partner to whom we can sell Typhoons and buy oil from.
The Lemming - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

WTF have I just read?

Scary OP and words fail me. And to call women who simply want to drive as Activists sums it up. Unless you are male then you are simply goods and chattles to abuse on a whim.


:-(
DNS on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

If as reported it reinforces my view that some Saudi males are unreformed medieval scum who we wouldn't waste a second on if they didn't have oil. They hide behind a warped misinterpretation of their religeon.
In reply to Trangia:

> What a civilised society, an worthy trading partner to whom we can sell Typhoons and buy oil from.

Horrific child abuse happens everywhere, I guess the 'crime' here is that the KSA legal system won't take it seriously. But I'm sure we trade with many other countries that have just as immoral or pathetically corrupt legal systems. :(
lost1977 - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

i'm not a violent person but i think i would struggle not to issue some meaningful justice to this piece of shit
TheDrunkenBakers - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: As a father of three girls, words cannot describe how I feel from what I have just read.

I just wished I hadnt read it now.
Alyson - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to TobyA:

> I guess the 'crime' here is that the KSA legal system won't take it seriously.

This is the most horrifying part of the story. We all know, deep down in the marrow of our bones, how utterly wrong his actions were. Protecting any person - man, woman or child - from that kind of torture should feel as natural to us as breathing. A legal system so far removed from what feels morally, humanly, right is just frightening.

Some days I wish I hadn't turned my computer on.
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> [...]
>
> Horrific child abuse happens everywhere, I guess the 'crime' here is that the KSA legal system won't take it seriously. But I'm sure we trade with many other countries that have just as immoral or pathetically corrupt legal systems. :(

You can't just resist defending the indefensible can you? As you haven't noticed, apparently, the problem is not that sadists and other monsters exist, even for clerics we are used to that amongst the catholic clergy, it's that the Saudi Arabian state allows this, considers that a short stay in prison and a fine is sufficient punishment. If it had been a wife who had an affair with another man then she could face a death penalty.


wheelsucker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Bruce, you're right it is indefensible but I don't think Toby's post defends those actions at all but merely highlights the fact that this behaviour happens with a lot of our trading partners which is itself indefensible.
Sir Chasm - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> You can't just resist defending the indefensible can you? As you haven't noticed, apparently, the problem is not that sadists and other monsters exist, even for clerics we are used to that amongst the catholic clergy, it's that the Saudi Arabian state allows this, considers that a short stay in prison and a fine is sufficient punishment. If it had been a wife who had an affair with another man then she could face a death penalty.

Of course the problem is that these people exist and carry out their actions. However, seriously we may want KSA to treat the crime, the child will still be dead.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> the problem is not that sadists and other monsters exist, even for clerics we are used to that amongst the catholic clergy, it's that the Saudi Arabian state allows this, considers that a short stay in prison and a fine is sufficient punishment.

Deep breath and calm down old chap, then read a bit more carefully, and you might notice what you're saying is exactly what I said.
Darren Jackson - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

Lovely country; I won't hear a word said against them. I once got thrown in a cell there, due to having arrived at Jeddah with an invalid visa. I wasn't aware that the visa was invalid because (a) I'd done my part and paid for the thing to be endorsed by their embassy (b) the wording was all in arabic.

Nevertheless, I was frogmarched out of the arrivals queue, by a couple of guards, and unceremoniously flung into a large cell containing lots of unfortunate Indians and Filipinos. I was left to stew there, for a few hours, before the same guards reappeared and gleefully informed me that I was being turfed out of the country on the next flight to Djibouti. I had no idea where Djibouti was, at the time, and had a strong preference for returning to Paris, from whence I'd arrived. I expressed my desire, in no uncertain terms, and - somewhat surprisingly - eventually had it granted.

Like I say, lovely place... For all I know, that modern day Black Hole of Calcutta is still there, hidden away in the bowels of Jeddah International, and probably still contains the same set of unfortunates. Plus additions.
Al Evans on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson: It's almost a good enough reason to declare war on Saudi, or at least sanctions. But thats not gonna happen is it, maybe we can sanction anything only men use, like shaving cream and errr?
Al Evans on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Al Evans: And Nike trainers. Certainly we could ban the men from all athletic competitions, eg World Football Cup, Olympics, and still let women enter.
JJL - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

Can't. Un-read.



Please put a warning on posts like that.
Jus - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to JJL:

My eyes are bleeding.
Lord of Starkness - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

One country that I will never be in any rush to return to. The only reason I went there was to be able to support my family without losing my home -- a fate that was staring me in the face 'on the dole'.

I can't imagine it's got any better since my I received my last 'exit only' visa stamp in 1993. It's a seriously f'cked up country run by some seriously f'cked up religious nutters. Even so, not all Saudis are bad. I made excellent friendships with some very devout Saudi muslims - who were also very enlightened in their attitudes to women - yet who were too frightened to say anything in public due to the power of the religious establishment and the infamous religious police ( Muttawas).
Rampikino - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

Is it possible for the title of this thread to be changed so that it warns the potential reader that it contains graphic depictions of child sexual abuse?
Dauphin - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

There was a lovely story from there a couple of years ago - house full of women burned to death on the 2nd floor because the morals of the fireman who had arrived outside would of been corrupted by entering the building and carrying them down the ladder - this was enforced by the religious police who were at the scene.

My Dad (ex services, somewhere to the right of Gengis Khan) worked there in the 70's during a period of high unemployment in the U.K. - whenever I've been broke and tempted to go for the money he has always talked me out of it and says it is a terrible country.


D
needvert on 04 Feb 2013
Amongst other stories to come out of there:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out

Certainly a prime example for why not all cultures deserve respect. While they may be a lot richer than us, they sure have a bit to earn about what civilization means.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to Cú Chullain)
>
> Is it possible for the title of this thread to be changed so that it warns the potential reader that it contains graphic depictions of child sexual abuse?

+1.



Kemics - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

Yeah jesus. That makes about as uncomfortable reading as it gets.

dek - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Dauphin:
Are you sure that wasn't the girls school that was burning? The kids were pushed back into the fire, as they were 'uncovered'.
The charred corpses were just piled up on the pavement.
You really 'don't' want to Google that story, and photos!
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to TobyA:

No need for a deep breath, the fact is you made a post which mitigates the event, says "well it's bad but others do it too"... Like when Israel is criticized you bring up Darfur. You've been doing it for years, and I suppose it's too late for you to change now, but try to realise that this ploy is just too transparent, even if on these forums it still seems to work for some.
In reply to Cú Chullain: I have censored this thread. If people want to read such disturbing details they can follow your link, but not on this site please.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> the fact is you made a post which mitigates the event,

I did no such thing, you might notice that the UK (like most other countries) trades with many other states that have horrible human rights records/justice systems. Get over yourself Bruce.
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> I did no such thing, you might notice that the UK (like most other countries) trades with many other states that have horrible human rights records/justice systems.

See, you've done it again! Or maybe you don't see?

> Get over yourself Bruce.

Again the little phrase... I think if anyone on ukc has an overblown opinion of themselves it's you... "lightfromthenorth", I ask you, what pretension!

In reply to dek: It was a girls school I believe, quite a few years back now. IIRC the fire brigade did turn up, as did some locals, to try and help save the kids but the fascist bully boys of the Mutaween - the morality police, fought them off.

I don't believe in hell which is annoying in cases like this, because you'd like there to be a special corner reserved there for people who would do something like this.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> See, you've done it again! Or maybe you don't see?

All i can see is you desperate to have an argument about something, anything...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Timmd:

He said "horrific child abuse happens everywhere" in his opening remark, which is a way of reducing the impact of the report. It is also probaly untrue, I'm sure there are plenty of places where fathers don't rape their own 5 year old daughters by all the possible orifices then torture them to death and then are let off after a short bit of prison and a fine... I defy you to come up with other examples which are so bad, in fact.

He was "a religious scholar who is also a regular guest on Islamic television networks", and the legal situation "is based on national laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives,"

Come on Tim, with Toby if you need help, give us a dozen similar cases in other countries to show this is commonplace.... in fact just find one other.
Sir Chasm - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Are you really suggesting that child rape and murder doesn't happen in most countries?
Al Evans on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker) Are you really suggesting that child rape and murder doesn't happen in most countries?

Of course it does, but usually the perpetrators if identified get appropriate punishment for it.
Sir Chasm - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Al Evans: And, as I pointed out earlier, what happens after the event doesn't alter what has happened to the victim.
Timmd on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> He said "horrific child abuse happens everywhere" in his opening remark, which is a way of reducing the impact of the report. It is also probaly untrue, I'm sure there are plenty of places where fathers don't rape their own 5 year old daughters by all the possible orifices then torture them to death and then are let off after a short bit of prison and a fine... I defy you to come up with other examples which are so bad, in fact.

Horrific child abuse happen everywhere, possibly not with such lenient sentences upon being discovered, but it's a constant in human nature, like rape and murder, and altruism and the positives as well, of that i'm certain. In Turkey a girl was buried while still alive for being interested in an unnnaproved of man, she was in her teens, but they found soil in her lungs, while in Sheffield a dad kept moving his family of daughter around sheffield and the surrounding areas to avoid detection while sexually abusing them throughout thier lives.

> He was "a religious scholar who is also a regular guest on Islamic television networks", and the legal situation "is based on national laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives,"

Which is a shocking state of affairs.

> Come on Tim, with Toby if you need help, give us a dozen similar cases in other countries to show this is commonplace.... in fact just find one other.

I don't have the time, or really the inclination either to be fair. While I don't know of similar cases, I do think it can be taken for granted than horrific child abuse does happen around the whole world, the same kind of legal consequences happening i'm less sure, I would think that the nature of these crimes means they're not widely talked about.

See me as mitigating this, or whatever you like, that's upto you, but i've honestly got better things to do, like applying for a place on an apprenticeship.

James90 - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I think tobys origional post was pointing out that there are people like this in every country. its not like we had a well known public tv presenter for 30 years who was then found out to be a paedophile....
As far as examples go look at austria discovering Joseph fritzl.


Most countrys have there fair share of nutters/paedophiles in various forms. You have to rely on your police/legal system to keep the vulnerable as protected as possible. At least in the UK if an atrosity like this happend the system would prevent reoccurance.
Cuthbert on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

You should also censor much of the language used in the replies. This really shouldn't be on this site. There are multiple other forums and sites where this can be discussed. Or in the case of UKC, argued over. Pathetic.
cragtaff - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: So, another example of that wonderful religion islam. Why is anobody even surprised, this sort of thing is normal in islamic culture.

I get p8ssed off with people telling me its a misinterpretation of islam, which is all about love and peace, there are a hell of a lot of people, even the political and religious leaders of the countries concerned 'misinterpreting' it!

Its normal in islam, get used to it.
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to James90:

> its not like we had a well known public tv presenter for 30 years

Who did the same as this monster to his own daughter? Then was let off so lightly by the legal system?

I find it amusing how people come out with such porkies, to defend what? This case is particularly severe, by all it's aspects, why not just admit it? Why it so hard to admit that what goes on in such countries as Saudi Arabia is so appalling, and not worth all the arms sales in the world?
Al Evans on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Hear Hear Bruce.
Al Evans on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Al Evans: Or should it be Here Here, I've never really known?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> Then was let off so lightly by the legal system?

Did you see the news today that Marc Dutroux is in court appealing for early release? I think he's done 15 years, which seems next to nothing for what he did.

BigBrother - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: Quite a contrast to this story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20959228
Big Steve - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to cragtaff:
> (In reply to Cú Chullain) So, another example of that wonderful religion islam. Why is anobody even surprised, this sort of thing is normal in islamic culture.
>
> I get p8ssed off with people telling me its a misinterpretation of islam, which is all about love and peace, there are a hell of a lot of people, even the political and religious leaders of the countries concerned 'misinterpreting' it!
>
> Its normal in islam, get used to it.

What a load of b*llocks, this is not normal in Islam at all, if it was Im sure my Muslim wife or my Muslim in laws, or my Muslim neighbours would have done me in years ago. It is sick people that do this sort of thing, regardless of the religion, they are just sick.
Bobling - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

Can we just bin this entire thread please?
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> Did you see the news today that Marc Dutroux is in court appealing for early release? I think he's done 15 years, which seems next to nothing for what he did.

This is standard practice in the Belgian system, after 1/3 of the sentence. It doesn't mean it will be accepted but, according to the French news, all prisoners have to be treated the same.

But again, what relevance to this case? Has the Saudi murderer spent 15 years in jail?

Bruce Hooker - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Big Steve:

I agree that this is not standard practice in all muslim countries but the problem is that Saudi Arabia is the country with Mecca in it and it's rulers represent a lot to many muslims. Every year thousands (millions maybe, not sure) of muslims go the Mecca as their religion calls them to do at least once in their life time and don't you think it would look better on muslims as a whole if they started to at least question the behaviour of the guardians of Mecca?

It would also look better for Western governments if they didn't suck up to the Saudi dictators as well, it has to be admitted.
MG - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bobling: Why? Pretending it doesn't happen won't help.
John_Hat - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to James90)
>
>
> I find it amusing how people come out with such porkies, to defend what? This case is particularly severe, by all it's aspects, why not just admit it? Why it so hard to admit that what goes on in such countries as Saudi Arabia is so appalling, and not worth all the arms sales in the world?

I have NOT watched the link. Having read the comments I felt that it was not something I wanted to go near, but based on the descriptions in the comments I - and this rarely occurs - agree 100% with Bruce.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> But again, what relevance to this case?

Just that these things get treated in hugely different ways in different legal systems. I guess in Texas he'd not be around to make the appeal.

But anyway, look at the horrific levels of sexual violence against children in South (and Southern) Africa after the "cleansing" myth became widespread. South Africa has a strong civil society and very progressive constitution, but still it seems the legal system can't or won't protect the vulnerable. Or look at the levels of sexual violence in the Congo wars. You want to ride your normal hobby horse here, but it's wider than that. The Saudi system is utterly corrupt and oppressive but this terrible case is sadly far from unique.

I agree with you though that the sucking up to the Saudi dictators, like with many other dictators, by western governments is hard to watch.
Sir Chasm - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to John_Hat: You agree that crimes like this only happen in KSA?
John_Hat - on 05 Feb 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Oh, stop being silly. I directly quoted what bit of what he said I agreed with. That's what people often do on forums. It's not like it was difficult to work that out.

For the avoidance of doubt, that does not mean that I agree with Bruce in every other post on this thread, or on any other thread. In fact, I generally disagree with every word he says, as you know.
Bobling - on 05 Feb 2013
In reply to MG:

And this thread somehow will?
Lord of Starkness - on 05 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Big Steve)
>
> the Saudi dictators

This is slightly off topic but to be accurate the Saudi regime is not a dictatorship -- it's nominally an absolute monarchy that is hamstrung by the Wahabi Sunni religious establishment. The king rules via a council of ministers - most of whom are his brothers and other family members.

Unlike other absolute monarchies succession is not from father to son, but in order of seniority between the many sons of King Abdulaziz al Saud - who unified the country and died in 1953. He had many wives, and was prolific. His youngest surviving son was born in 1945 - and he is well down the pecking order.

What will happen to the succession after the death of the last surviving son of Abdulaziz is open to question - but it will almost certainly be heavily influenced by the religious establishment.

MG - on 05 Feb 2013
In reply to Bobling:
> (In reply to MG)
>
> And this thread somehow will?

Indirectly, yes.


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