I think he means unjustified in terms of tooling up a good summer pitch of lovely rhyolite. Which is perhaps a fair point though he also points out that since it's hardly ever white at least it won't see many ascents.
In reply to Michael Gordon: Hmm. Yeah, I guess that probably is what he means. He'd better try not to hear about too much modern scottish winter climbing in general then eh, since classic summer mountain routes seem to be the main target for many these days....
In reply to awwritetroops:
A nice enough troll, I will take the bait. Daddy duty tonight and my pupils exams is not until tomorrow so nowt else to do.
you are of course entitled to your opinion. Donald to his. At that grade and with such a fickle place I doubt it will ever be climbed by anyone not able to climb cleanly- so hardly scratched.
If you feel so strongly about it I invite you to go climb it this summer and report (with pictures; Donald had the courtesy of putting pictures of it in winter nick) about the possible damage. The nature of the buachaille holds does not worry me in terms of disappearing/ snapping holds much: as stated above we are all entitled to our opinions.
When was it that Agag's got a winter ascent again? Who did it? Hardly a new phenomenon then, is it? Or may be should we put the blame on pioneers for climbing evolutions...if only those Victorians could have stuck to being horrible to the poor our crags would be safe from us.
Before the whole entrenched debate about damages takes off, I will make my opinion clear: if you worry about damaging the crag/ nature, don't climb at all. On the other hand, we don't need to be vandals either- I don't see fully honed climbers with an intimate knowledge of the route as a vandal. I do admire your soloing ethic... you'll not damage rock with any metal of any sort. That much respect for the Auchenscary choss is admirable.
We may have to agree to disagree, just don't fret too much!
I don't get upset by scratches on summer mountain routes anymore. I think that scratches are only upsetting if you allow them to be. I choose to concentrate on the quality of the climbing, the view, the company, etc. If a few wee scratches were to trump all of that I'd reconsider my motivations.
In reply to awwritetroops: Buachaille has massive tradition of summer routes being climbed in winter nick,some of which were never recorded. superb technical effort and also patience to get such primo nick - well done donald
In reply to Jamie B: ahh exfoliation and total destruction of the talisman.. remember that debate on here?
Bolly on 06 Feb 2013 - host86-140-227-246.range86-140.btcentralplus.com
In reply to awwritetroops: I would like to add my congratulations to the climbers of this route in winter conditions (there is snow on the route), fantastic effort, looks like a great day out.
I feel yet again that there is some perception of ownership, and that seems mostly if not entirely from rock climbers. That somehow as a game played theirs is the most just, right and no one else has the right to offend their rock.
All interaction with the natural environment leaves a trace, and all climbers leave a trace. Accept it, it is the only fact, that can't be debated (although I'm sure some will).
I like scratches on rock, I like chalk marks on rock, I like the pick holes in ice, for me it shows a history of climbers passing, and appreciating, the opportunity to climb on a crag whatever the conditions and weather. I'm not a rock climber, not a winter climber, not a trad climber or sport climber. I'm a Climber, I keep my impact minimal, I keep as safe a possible and I enjoy myself.
Looking forward to a critique on spelling grammar and punctuation.
Not doubting the impressive climbing involved here, just that I believe classic and much travelled summer lines such as this, bludgers, the needle etc should be left in favour of less traveled summer lines.
Thankfully the majority of winter climbers with thousands of pounds worth of technical apparel, sporting the mail order mountaineer look and climbing Grade IIIís donít have the ability to climb it thus rendering the damage minimalÖ
It would take some very special conditions and climbers to get Bludger's done in acceptable winter nick.
Some so called classics are fairly logical winter lines, other arent't. I believe that first ascentionists in winter go seek some specific features that would be great as a winter climb, they don't go: "this a summer classic, so I'll try it in winter". I don't know much about new routing.
Let's take an hypothetic view point: with better training, tools and information, VIII becomes the new V. The conendrum remains the same: is it about damage done to the route or is it about classic rock climbs that should remain rock climbs?
I think that climbing hard routes in winter is the evolution of climbing in general. I am a climber, not just a rock or winter climber. I see little problem with these athletes pushing the boundaries.
Yet, and to make matters incomprehensible, I could never condone the ascent of those grit lines a few years back: that was vindictive vandalism...unless there was a water ice line on it.
I am sure we will have to agree to disagree. I have no issues with Donald's ascent of ingeneer's crack. In fact I applaud it as a very special feat, not least because it doesn't solely depend on Donald's climbing ability but more on his weather cunning.
> I believe that first ascentionists in winter go seek some specific features that would be great as a winter climb, they don't go: "this a summer classic, so I'll try it in winter".
I think that's exactly what they do actually. They think "if this route is grade X in summer, so it should be roughly grade Y in winter". They know it goes bottom to top, has gear etc already and much more about what they are getting into than starting up completely undeveloped ground. It's an easy, convenient way to find new targets for winter new routes - far less hassle than going and actually finding new genuine winter ground.
> (In reply to French Erick)
> I believe classic and much travelled summer lines such as this, bludgers, the needle etc should be left
I agree. Raping clean dry classic rock routes with aid is the ultimate in futile and destructive egomania. You might as well do them in Summer in shorts and T shirt with ice tools and crampons. Many of these routes are easier with aid than without.
In reply to neil the weak:
Not for things like tomahawk crack, the god dellusion, the new cool,: I really don't think they do. I have said that I have never put up a new route though.
I have never down aid climbing in my life. I would like to try to discover an aspect of climbing I am not knowledgeable in. I have never looked down on it. I don't think it to be superior/inferior to any other climbing types. I am convinced, however, that the day I try it will not be even remotely close to what winter climbing feels like. In winter, I feel the same way that summer multi-pitch trad... it is just colder, the flow slower and the kit heavier. I am ready to listen to your opinion. Explain why it is aid? You may convince me; after all, they say only idiots don't change opinions.
Quite a few folks beat the same old drums:
winter damages; yes it does but any climbing has an impact.
Winter is aid climbing; it diminishes what aid climbing is about then. But then if people will throw this in anyway, they must not put a lot of credit to aid in the first place.
I will likely continue to post on this thread as it has not yet descended to anarchy. I am not out to get anyone or to evangelised. I know I have the truth...
I hear what youíre saying and donít disagree with all of it, I just think that now all routes seem to be fair game for a winter ascent and I donít feel this is right. Where is the line drawn? I feel ethical attitudes are changing for the worst.
In reply to awwritetroops:
I've done it in summer, don't see many people on it ,despite the fact its a good route, but hard for the grade.
Looked to be in as good winter nick as a route that steep will ever be.
Have you done it in summer, something tells me the answer will be no.
Ah! but you did ask if it was justified! and the justification came with it being in condition! and that was after a 10 year wait!
Donald and Mike are not exactly your usual " scratch and spark" suspects are they?.
I can sympathise with your view on ethics regarding Summer/Winter, but do you really think that this route is going to see many winter ascents? I think not.
I remember Donald and Andy Nelson being hammered on here for their first ascent of Satyre a couple of years ago! for one reason or another, but I don't think it was over conditions or justification! more like one of their boot laces became undone or some other heinous climbing crime! during the first ascent.
Can we not just celebrate the fact that folk are pushing the boundaries for others to explore, and aspire to, instead of key board commando antics! because if you were that serious, you would reveal your true identity, instead of hiding behind a username.
I guess there will always be debates regarding correct ethics in climbing, and each individual is entitled to their own opinion and justifiably so, but can we not look at the big picture, and stop getting so excited.
> (In reply to awwritetroops)
> I can sympathise with your view on ethics regarding Summer/Winter, but do you really think that this route is going to see many winter ascents? I think not.
Indeed the debate, without all the side tracking issues of damages, aid climbing... seems to be: is it right to climb summer climb in winter?
I have no issues if the route lends itself to some excellent winter climbing (in all its types). And some routes will be awesome in winter when others would be utter pants.
> Can we not just celebrate the fact that folk are pushing the boundaries for others to explore, and aspire to, instead of key board commando antics!
Yes indeed, we should in my opinion. As we should question people who do cross a certain line (here's THE bone of contention) e.g. climbing on 20m grit with a dusting of snow.
I am necessarily biased as I really enjoy winter climbing, I will admit to that.
Not really! I have nothing to defend, other than the complete understanding of what they achieved.
I am not attacking, and if you understood the concept of attack/defence you would understand that I am merely retorting to a throw-away comment you made, on a subject you clearly do not have a foggiest idea about!