/ Radio Scotland 13/02 -Restricting access in bad weather
How exactly might that actually be enforced in open countryside?
Wouldn't worry about it - 'Call Kaye' is just drivel for pensioners who've got nothing better to do with their lives. Can't imagine anyone with a serious point of view will be unduly influenced.
Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
True! She's also so fkin PC it's hilarious!
Ah wtf! BBC schedules are wrong. She is on after all.
She is on alright.
It could be fun though - you should hear the harpy she has on calling for mountaineering to be banned. My milk has already curdled. Give her hell!
First they are doing the free labour for Poundland story.
Hah! "This carnage Has got to stop" ... It's time for common sense to prevail!
Good grief. Have made the mistake of listening. Blood pressure up already. That muppet from the tax payers alliance is a prat!
> How exactly might that actually be enforced in open countryside?
We all need tagged! Jeezo,
Can we have armchair mountaineer bingo?
* Mountain rescuer lives at risk
* Tax Payers money
I'm surprised she felt able to make it into work this morning, given that it's snowing - what if she'd been avalanched on the way up the M8!
I think she lives in the trendy West End, and cycles into BBC Mansions.
cycling - jeezo, she's clearly suicidal! They probably want to section her now for her own safety.
'It's dignitas for young people'.
Oh. For. F*cks. Sakes.
Elder is getting cornered by the MCoS and numerous MRT members.
Anyway, I usually get cornered by fat coffin dodgers at work every time we have a tragedy, mair die in Larbert General with "lifestyle" diseases every week than we lose tragically on the hill.
The "52 deaths in 2011" keeps being quoted, and it's not being quantified, which is absurd. How many were mountaineering incidents?
From http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/12/12143249 regarding 2010:
Scottish Mountain Rescue responded to 534 incidents in 2010 and committed 26,600 volunteer hours in responding to emergencies throughout Scotland. A total of 659 people were assisted of which 255 were injured and regrettably 45 died; of these, unfortunately 16 people died in mountaineering incidents, the lowest number for over 30 years. The number of non-mountaineering incidents rose to 194 compared to 172 in 2009; this 36 per cent annual rise is the highest ever reported.
It's lazy journalism, and I use the word "journalism" with difficulty.
> 'It's dignitas for young people'.
The 52 stat is being refuted right now.
Will need to listen on catch up but a few points to note:-
-DGE is a lunatic and professional mooth
-Call Kaye is chaired by a moron who admits in 90% of the call ins she chairs, that she actually has no knowledge of the subject at hand but proceeds to giver her'woman on the street' understanding and 'gut feelings' nevertheless
-however, this still gives her a 10% advantage over the small cabal of about a dozen regular callers who ring in to hold court on any manner of things they dont understand
As an aside, BBC Radio Scotland, despite notionally being a national radio station, is every bit the small minded parochial local radio you can pick up on commercial stations. Their output really is dire.
Nice one Richard. What did Heather say? That would be an interesting spanner in their works.
Who was on at the end? He pretty much blew every argument they had right out of the water. I got the impression she was hoping she'd get loads of folk decrying how utter terrible it all was and how we were all disgusting selfish individuals. Instead she got three ex or current MRT members and a few other callers who were active hillgoers. Very little input from anyone who had anything bad to say.
I thought so! Didn't catch his name at the start. He was on twitter earlier and sounded a bit disgruntled about their manipulation of the stats.
Funny how she spent a bit of time bashing the "nanny state".
We live in an increasingly urbanised society and coupled with 24 hour news, it's all too easy for the outdoors to become the dangerous bogey man. For example the Glencoe Avalanche tragedy was blurred into wider coverage about the snow in the south of England. It was convenient for the media to do this and added to the sensationalism. However we can't under estimate the impact this can have on those people who haven't yet ventured into the outdoors. Particularly parents. In an age when our society is increasingly burdened by chronic illness and people are risk adverse to the point of stagnation, the outdoors has a vital role to play in our wellbeing and personal development - particularly amongst young people.
> Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
I still would though..
Can anyone tell me the approximate time of the mountaineering discussion within the program so I dont have to listen to the rest of it?
> I still would though..
It's mixed in with the whole program it seems. Honestly, I've just skimmed through it. It's pretty naffy really. However, there are some good people talking. John Allen, who was the leader of Cairngorm MRT (Cairngorm John).
Any restrictions would be unenforceable, I'm not going to lose any sleep about that threat. I take comments from armchair experts with a pinch of salt, they can be dismissed with the contempt they deserve. The programme has repeatedly referred to 5 fatalities in our hills this year, I hate to be pedantic and do not wish to feed the hysteria but to my knowledge there have been 6 fatalities - the unfortunate climber in the Northern Corries (13th Jan?) seems to have slipped under the radar.
Actually when all the MRT leaders started weighing in it was quite good really. The start isn't up to much, but after about an hour in, it's actually quite good and interesting. Kind of hard to argue with the calibre of folk who were talking on the show.
At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
> At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
That's surely a factor.. but first I'd look at numbers of each country/outsiders using the hills.. many do travel to that area so the must make up a substantial number.
Thought that Heather, "Cairngorm John" & especially Heavy were excellent in their measured responses. Now must check MWIS & SAIS & look out my running sandles.
> I still would though..
In reply to dek:
> Aw go on then.... Me too!
Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
That invitation might back-fire...
> Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
Oh dear, there's more I'm afraid! Tonight at 11 on BBC 2 on Newsnight Scotland they shall be discussing whether the hills should be 'shut off' during the winter time! This should be interesting......
> They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
Ha! Just beat me to it :)
i knew dge was a gobshite but she really is taking the biscuit here. luckily its all irrelevant as any "harbourmaster of the hills" is completely unworkable.
just a pity that bbc scotland chose to capitalise on the the recent deaths of people in our community to get a bit of sensationalist outrage
She was worse on the tv than on the radio. I see she blatantly chose to ignore the facts presented to her this morning on the radio regarding the number of deaths due to mountaineering incidents, as opposed to the number of deaths where mountain rescue teams have attended.
When I hear "something must be done", I usually interpret that as politician speak for "I want people to hear my voice".
Not as dangerous as Cheerleading though. They want to look up the top 10 most dangerous sports and have a go at them.
I would like to see Grace-Elder invited to address to something like the MCoS AGM.
They should hire her to post on here about winter ethics, bolts and the likes..
Article by David 'Heavy' Whalley here:
The "52 fatalities" statistic was actually regurgitated by the reporter doing the voice-over on the introductory piece.
The good news is that people like Dorothy-Grace Elder (a failed politician) have little real influence on anyone or anybody, and their arguments can easily be demolished by reference to factual evidence if any kind of regulation (which is utterly impractical anyway) ever was seriously mooted.
I was in despair that this so called "well respected informant" had got her facts completely wrong and carried on to another National programme on the BBC. Research should be the key to a good journalism, It was not in this case. I am sure the families of those who have had tragedies do not need this unfair reporting or criticisms on their action.
Shame on the BBC for not putting the true facts out to the public. We must fight to get our point out there despite the efforts of poor reporting. Otherwise the truth is hidden in a cloud of non - sense.
Thanks to all those who commented on my blog yesterday. www.heavywhalley.com
Hear hear (says an on-the-fringes journalist who sets great store by research). Hope you’re keeping well, Heavy. Any more Munro rounds in the pipeline?
I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
Here's a link to a very interesting blog by a man who knows what he's talking about...
I wonder what the relative proportions of accidents involving novices and experts are? Knowledge and experience count for little if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
thats not what i said at all i said that maybe some people underestimate the conditions that occur. and thats not an anti outsider statement etc theres plenty of scottish people who also underestimate the conditions.
Hi, I was on the radio, and then got dragged into newsnight as well, the woman is basically bonkers, (although she was quite nice of screen). I found myself having to answer direct questions about the weather and the alps, rather than get stick into attacking her ridiculous statements. But it was good to see that the presenter, and the rest of the population see her statements and pointless and nonsense.
End If the day, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Access isn't going to be restricted any time soon, and I hope I got the feelings of the typical mountaineer our their.
i complained to the BBC. didn't have time to fiddle around with it but here it is anyway:
Full Complaint: Newsnight Scotland 13/2/13 repeated misleading information about the number of fatalities on Scottish mountains. They stated that there were 52 in 2011. This is wrong. The figure is 21 [see www.heavywhalley.co.]. Mountain rescue teams are often involved in searches for missing persons, people who wander off with mental illness and have suicidal tendencies etc. The figure of 52 includes these activities and associated fatalities - but they may have nothing to do with mountaineering accidents. The guest in the show Dorothy Grace Elder also mentioned this figure of 52 deaths in the mountains. In the morning she was a guest on radio Scotland’s Call Kay programme and it was pointed out to her by a former Mountain rescue team leader how misleading this figure of 52 is only for her and the BBC to repeat it again later that day. This is not acceptable and extremely sloppy journalism and could also cause significant distress to the families of those involved.
She had however backed off from her "ban it" position after being thoroughly ridiculed and trounced on Kaye, and moved on to the subtler but equally specious idea that the MCof S has got some sort of gubernatorial role and can tell us what to do. Like I say, Paul did well but they could maybe have got someone better qualified like Heather Morning, who was very good on Kaye.
I'm a journalist and know all about making the top line grab people's attention, but not at the expense of missing where the real debate it. And Mac, you are spot on about that statistical blunder: I felt very queasy about it from ther get-go, and looked for info to contradict it. We're not hearing about a mountaineerring death ever week on average, as that figure seems to say.
The sad thing is that an opportunity to debate risk, and the need to promote the sensible negotiation of it, among young people especiallly, has been lost... or has it? Can we use this to promote that idea?
ha ha Doug how big is your spoon Sir?
> I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
It's just a shame that that particular point was made by the respected John Allen and not by the ignorant Ms Elder!
There was a survey in the mid-90s which looked at this. They estimated that 56% of people heading into the Cairngorms lived in Scotland, and about 37% were from south of the border. In the winter, it was pretty much 50:50.
Wonder if that has changed over the years.
Published online here: http://www.snh.gov.uk/publications-data-and-research/publications/search-the-catalogue/publication-d...
BBC still can't get it right:
"The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related."
heavy's blog listed the criteria.
For some reason, fell running isn't counted as mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing.
That's a little odd, but perhaps fell running means organised races in this context? In any case fatal accidents to fell runners are pretty rare so it won't affect these stats much, if at all.
beggars belief. the MCS could hardly be clearer; “Ms Grace Elder correctly stated that there were 52 fatalities in 2011, but omitted to mention that 31 of these related to non-mountaineering incidents; in the prior year there were a total of 45 fatalities of which 16 were mountaineering and 29 non-mountaineering".
how can news reporters get this wrong?
given the grim news today i expect DGE will surface again..
Grounds of complaint - poor research / misleading the audience. DGE is of course quite entitled to spout pish, though I wish she wouldn't.
Pity they didn't get her name right (surely Ms Elder when she's Dorothy-Grace with a hyphen)!
Interesting that the BBC right now is quoting 'The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related.'
So unless you want to think about that a bit then there were 52 deaths in the mountains in 2011. Obviously 'mountaineers'.
My views on the subject:
In summary, I believe that while education for mountaineers can be improved, the public (and by extension the press) also needs some education as well.
Fortunately there are some journalists who are on our side. AFAIK BBC Out of Doors will be debating this issue tomorrow morning.
Unfortunately the bbc article tags on the MCofS comments at the end of the article about the avalanche in the Cairngorms which covers the fatalities involved. To my eyes, it reads as though the BBC have asked the MCofS about the fatalities and this was their response - it's now out of context and efectively defeats its purpose.
Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
I think the majority still really don't give two hoots.
It's a threat that is totally unenforceable, impractical and wrong and a seconds thinking will highlight that so such action will never happen.
> Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
I agree a less sympathetic public can't be made into a positive and criticism from the media can irritate or even cause offence but I'm not bothered about being embraced or otherwise by the public. If there are to be no practical implications I can live with a bit of tut-tutting.
> I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
I understand that.. I'm just not sure such idiotic arguments should even be given credibility through a response.. let alone official responses from the BMC etc.
A number of times I've logged into such sites thinking of responding then backed off as I worry responding with reasoned argument makes there argument also of a reasonable nature.. but I do understand why people want to respond.. I'm just not sure its worth it.
When its alarmist, impractical, poorly thought through and from a position of total or near total ignorance.
There are people who almost rub their hands with glee with such incidents and rush to the comments boards to have their say. You see it with runners, occassionally a runner does die of hypothermia and you get the 'I told you.. poorly dressed runner..'.. and you get it with climbers on steep snow covered slopes..
I just think those people just miss the whole point of enjoying mountain sports/activities, with the associated risk and its challenges being such an integral part of that activity, that the chance of changing their minds is minimal.
The MCofS is still waiting for a response from Newsnight Scotland
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