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Call Kaye 0850-1030 Wed 13th Feb is now soliciting calls on the topic of "restricting access in trecherous weather". Rebuttals will probably be required given that we are in the midst of one of those media witch hunts yet again.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Wouldn't worry about it - 'Call Kaye' is just drivel for pensioners who've got nothing better to do with their lives. Can't imagine anyone with a serious point of view will be unduly influenced.
Wouldn't worry about it - 'Call Kaye' is just drivel for pensioners who've got nothing better to do with their lives. Can't imagine anyone with a serious point of view will be unduly influenced.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
Just seen that Kirsty Wark is presenting this morning so it might be slightly more balanced.
In reply to Toby S:
True! She's also so fkin PC it's hilarious!
True! She's also so fkin PC it's hilarious!
In reply to Toby S:
She is on alright.
It could be fun though - you should hear the harpy she has on calling for mountaineering to be banned. My milk has already curdled. Give her hell!
First they are doing the free labour for Poundland story.
She is on alright.
It could be fun though - you should hear the harpy she has on calling for mountaineering to be banned. My milk has already curdled. Give her hell!
First they are doing the free labour for Poundland story.
In reply to Toby S:
Hah! "This carnage Has got to stop" ... It's time for common sense to prevail!
Hah! "This carnage Has got to stop" ... It's time for common sense to prevail!
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Good grief. Have made the mistake of listening. Blood pressure up already. That muppet from the tax payers alliance is a prat!
Good grief. Have made the mistake of listening. Blood pressure up already. That muppet from the tax payers alliance is a prat!
In reply to Neil Williams:
snipers
> (In reply to Fat Bumbly2)
>
> How exactly might that actually be enforced in open countryside?
>
> Neil
>
> How exactly might that actually be enforced in open countryside?
>
> Neil
snipers
In reply to Wainers44: Gets worse - McPish is batting for us.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
We all need tagged! Jeezo,
Can we have armchair mountaineer bingo?
* Mountain rescuer lives at risk
* Tax Payers money
* irresponsible
* Selfish
Any others?
We all need tagged! Jeezo,
Can we have armchair mountaineer bingo?
* Mountain rescuer lives at risk
* Tax Payers money
* irresponsible
* Selfish
Any others?
In reply to Toby S:
I'm surprised she felt able to make it into work this morning, given that it's snowing - what if she'd been avalanched on the way up the M8!
I'm surprised she felt able to make it into work this morning, given that it's snowing - what if she'd been avalanched on the way up the M8!
In reply to Ditch_Jockey:
I think she lives in the trendy West End, and cycles into BBC Mansions.
I think she lives in the trendy West End, and cycles into BBC Mansions.
In reply to dek:
cycling - jeezo, she's clearly suicidal! They probably want to section her now for her own safety.
cycling - jeezo, she's clearly suicidal! They probably want to section her now for her own safety.
In reply to Ditch_Jockey: "Dignitas for young healthy people"
Elder is getting cornered by the MCoS and numerous MRT members.
Elder is getting cornered by the MCoS and numerous MRT members.
She read out my email And it would appear that the majority of folk are saying that Dorothy Perkins (or whatever her name is) is talking pish.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: Can't see them ever enforcing this even if it wasnt just taks show rubbish. Wouldn't even be possible somewhere like Snowdon never mind Scotland.
In reply to Ditch_Jockey: They booked me to come on and I was up for a good fight but I only got a minute in before the news ... don't think I was needed because Dorothy GE is just getting trashed by all the callers. Hope I made the point. Heather Morning was good.
Kaye Adams served me in a pub when I was under age. Just thought I'd throw that in....
Anyway, I usually get cornered by fat coffin dodgers at work every time we have a tragedy, mair die in Larbert General with "lifestyle" diseases every week than we lose tragically on the hill.
Anyway, I usually get cornered by fat coffin dodgers at work every time we have a tragedy, mair die in Larbert General with "lifestyle" diseases every week than we lose tragically on the hill.
In reply to Toby S:
The "52 deaths in 2011" keeps being quoted, and it's not being quantified, which is absurd. How many were mountaineering incidents?
From http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/12/12143249 regarding 2010:
Scottish Mountain Rescue responded to 534 incidents in 2010 and committed 26,600 volunteer hours in responding to emergencies throughout Scotland. A total of 659 people were assisted of which 255 were injured and regrettably 45 died; of these, unfortunately 16 people died in mountaineering incidents, the lowest number for over 30 years. The number of non-mountaineering incidents rose to 194 compared to 172 in 2009; this 36 per cent annual rise is the highest ever reported.
It's lazy journalism, and I use the word "journalism" with difficulty.
The "52 deaths in 2011" keeps being quoted, and it's not being quantified, which is absurd. How many were mountaineering incidents?
From http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/12/12143249 regarding 2010:
Scottish Mountain Rescue responded to 534 incidents in 2010 and committed 26,600 volunteer hours in responding to emergencies throughout Scotland. A total of 659 people were assisted of which 255 were injured and regrettably 45 died; of these, unfortunately 16 people died in mountaineering incidents, the lowest number for over 30 years. The number of non-mountaineering incidents rose to 194 compared to 172 in 2009; this 36 per cent annual rise is the highest ever reported.
It's lazy journalism, and I use the word "journalism" with difficulty.
In reply to Toby S:
>
> 'It's dignitas for young people'.
>
I wish they'd had my line open when she said that - you might have heard some swearing on BBC Radio Scotland!!!> 'It's dignitas for young people'.
>
In reply to Scomuir: Yes that 52 figure seems absurdly high.
In reply to Richard Baynes: Many thanks, and thanks again to all the experts that have given up their time to put Ground Elder-Pest in her place.
The 52 stat is being refuted right now.
The 52 stat is being refuted right now.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Will need to listen on catch up but a few points to note:-
-DGE is a lunatic and professional mooth
-Call Kaye is chaired by a moron who admits in 90% of the call ins she chairs, that she actually has no knowledge of the subject at hand but proceeds to giver her'woman on the street' understanding and 'gut feelings' nevertheless
-however, this still gives her a 10% advantage over the small cabal of about a dozen regular callers who ring in to hold court on any manner of things they dont understand
As an aside, BBC Radio Scotland, despite notionally being a national radio station, is every bit the small minded parochial local radio you can pick up on commercial stations. Their output really is dire.
Will need to listen on catch up but a few points to note:-
-DGE is a lunatic and professional mooth
-Call Kaye is chaired by a moron who admits in 90% of the call ins she chairs, that she actually has no knowledge of the subject at hand but proceeds to giver her'woman on the street' understanding and 'gut feelings' nevertheless
-however, this still gives her a 10% advantage over the small cabal of about a dozen regular callers who ring in to hold court on any manner of things they dont understand
As an aside, BBC Radio Scotland, despite notionally being a national radio station, is every bit the small minded parochial local radio you can pick up on commercial stations. Their output really is dire.
In reply to Richard Baynes:
Nice one Richard. What did Heather say? That would be an interesting spanner in their works.
> They booked me to come on and I was up for a good fight but I only got a minute in before the news ... don't think I was needed because Dorothy GE is just getting trashed by all the callers. Hope I made the point. Heather Morning was good.
Nice one Richard. What did Heather say? That would be an interesting spanner in their works.
In reply to Richard Baynes:
Who was on at the end? He pretty much blew every argument they had right out of the water. I got the impression she was hoping she'd get loads of folk decrying how utter terrible it all was and how we were all disgusting selfish individuals. Instead she got three ex or current MRT members and a few other callers who were active hillgoers. Very little input from anyone who had anything bad to say.
Who was on at the end? He pretty much blew every argument they had right out of the water. I got the impression she was hoping she'd get loads of folk decrying how utter terrible it all was and how we were all disgusting selfish individuals. Instead she got three ex or current MRT members and a few other callers who were active hillgoers. Very little input from anyone who had anything bad to say.
In reply to Milesy: She was just eminently sensible and stuck up for a genuinely common sense approach. I took the piss a bit, but got crashed by the news so it shut me up too soon!
In reply to Toby S: David 'Heavy' Whalley, ex leader of RAF Kinloss MRT (and others) one of scotlands foremost experts on MRT.. poor wee Kay was scunnered by his input.. blew the whole 'debate' oot the window! LOL
In reply to Erik B:
I thought so! Didn't catch his name at the start. He was on twitter earlier and sounded a bit disgruntled about their manipulation of the stats.
I thought so! Didn't catch his name at the start. He was on twitter earlier and sounded a bit disgruntled about their manipulation of the stats.
In reply to Erik B: Go 'Heavy'! Took the spin nicely off of their statistics and spoke about what they really mean.
In reply to Toby S: indeed.. Dorothy Grace Elder should call for a ban on going out in Glasgow on a weekend night on account of the weekly average 12 serious facial slashings occurring in the city centre. she really is a creep
In reply to Erik B: The last caller was probably the last caller for a reason. I am beginning to get the feeling that Grace Elder was set up somewhat (shame!)
Funny how she spent a bit of time bashing the "nanny state".
Funny how she spent a bit of time bashing the "nanny state".
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: I heard the start of the radio show and would have called in if I didn't have to work! Yes, the topic and the show is a bit 'tabloidy' but it's easy to dismiss it too. I'm also glad to hear that the pro mountaineer/outdoor group put forward good arguments on this show because it's important we're fighting our corner. I'm passionate about the positive role the outdoors plays in developing people and those of us who love the wild places in Scotland and the UK must be its champions too.
We live in an increasingly urbanised society and coupled with 24 hour news, it's all too easy for the outdoors to become the dangerous bogey man. For example the Glencoe Avalanche tragedy was blurred into wider coverage about the snow in the south of England. It was convenient for the media to do this and added to the sensationalism. However we can't under estimate the impact this can have on those people who haven't yet ventured into the outdoors. Particularly parents. In an age when our society is increasingly burdened by chronic illness and people are risk adverse to the point of stagnation, the outdoors has a vital role to play in our wellbeing and personal development - particularly amongst young people.
We live in an increasingly urbanised society and coupled with 24 hour news, it's all too easy for the outdoors to become the dangerous bogey man. For example the Glencoe Avalanche tragedy was blurred into wider coverage about the snow in the south of England. It was convenient for the media to do this and added to the sensationalism. However we can't under estimate the impact this can have on those people who haven't yet ventured into the outdoors. Particularly parents. In an age when our society is increasingly burdened by chronic illness and people are risk adverse to the point of stagnation, the outdoors has a vital role to play in our wellbeing and personal development - particularly amongst young people.
In reply to Toby S:
I still would though..
> (In reply to Fat Bumbly2)
>
> Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
>
> Kaye Adams is an idiot and I won't be listening to her. She panders to the lowest common denominator and she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is.
I still would though..
In reply to Scomuir:
Can anyone tell me the approximate time of the mountaineering discussion within the program so I dont have to listen to the rest of it?
Thanks, S
Can anyone tell me the approximate time of the mountaineering discussion within the program so I dont have to listen to the rest of it?
Thanks, S
In reply to telemarker: The main bulk starts at around 1hr in. There are some contributions earlier but they are by Cameron McNish.
In reply to Ridge:
> (In reply to Toby S)
> [...]
>
> I still would though..
Aw go on then.... Me too!> [...]
>
> I still would though..
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
It's mixed in with the whole program it seems. Honestly, I've just skimmed through it. It's pretty naffy really. However, there are some good people talking. John Allen, who was the leader of Cairngorm MRT (Cairngorm John).
It's mixed in with the whole program it seems. Honestly, I've just skimmed through it. It's pretty naffy really. However, there are some good people talking. John Allen, who was the leader of Cairngorm MRT (Cairngorm John).
In reply to mattrm:
Any restrictions would be unenforceable, I'm not going to lose any sleep about that threat. I take comments from armchair experts with a pinch of salt, they can be dismissed with the contempt they deserve. The programme has repeatedly referred to 5 fatalities in our hills this year, I hate to be pedantic and do not wish to feed the hysteria but to my knowledge there have been 6 fatalities - the unfortunate climber in the Northern Corries (13th Jan?) seems to have slipped under the radar.
Any restrictions would be unenforceable, I'm not going to lose any sleep about that threat. I take comments from armchair experts with a pinch of salt, they can be dismissed with the contempt they deserve. The programme has repeatedly referred to 5 fatalities in our hills this year, I hate to be pedantic and do not wish to feed the hysteria but to my knowledge there have been 6 fatalities - the unfortunate climber in the Northern Corries (13th Jan?) seems to have slipped under the radar.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Actually when all the MRT leaders started weighing in it was quite good really. The start isn't up to much, but after about an hour in, it's actually quite good and interesting. Kind of hard to argue with the calibre of folk who were talking on the show.
Actually when all the MRT leaders started weighing in it was quite good really. The start isn't up to much, but after about an hour in, it's actually quite good and interesting. Kind of hard to argue with the calibre of folk who were talking on the show.
intersting listening and well done on some of the mountain rescue callers for getting the facts over. another thing that i hadnt though about till john mentioned it was a lot of the accidents are people from outwith scotland. not sure what the reasons for this would be maybe a lot of people do underestimate the conditions scottish winter can bring especialy in the cairngorm area.
In reply to davy_boy:
At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
> intersting listening and well done on some of the mountain rescue callers for getting the facts over. another thing that i hadnt though about till john mentioned it was a lot of the accidents are people from outwith scotland. not sure what the reasons for this would be maybe a lot of people do underestimate the conditions scottish winter can bring especialy in the cairngorm area.
At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
In reply to Ramblin dave:
That's surely a factor.. but first I'd look at numbers of each country/outsiders using the hills.. many do travel to that area so the must make up a substantial number.
> (In reply to davy_boy)
> [...]
>
> At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
> [...]
>
> At a guess it's less underestimating the conditions and more that you're more likely to back off if you know you can come back next weekend or the weekend after rather than having to drive four hundred miles home and not get another chance until next year...
That's surely a factor.. but first I'd look at numbers of each country/outsiders using the hills.. many do travel to that area so the must make up a substantial number.
Restricting access to Ski Areas in winter.........
It's a shame really that they had two such incompetent numpties [Kaye Adams & Dorothy wotsit] on the subject as it boiled down to the usual rants about how we're all a bunch of idiots for going to the hills when the white stuff is around. It seems that none of us are competent unless we have a bit of paper to say that we've undertaken a course and got our licence. Having known a few guys & gals with bits of paper & unfortunately still not a lot between the ears it doesn't quite equate. A learning apprenticeship in the hills really is the biz.
Thought that Heather, "Cairngorm John" & especially Heavy were excellent in their measured responses. Now must check MWIS & SAIS & look out my running sandles.
Thought that Heather, "Cairngorm John" & especially Heavy were excellent in their measured responses. Now must check MWIS & SAIS & look out my running sandles.
In reply to Ramblin dave: possibly but the biggest part of any day in the mountains is knowing when to turn back. i still think a lot of people underestimate the conditions including a few foreign friends of mine who have spent years climbing in the alps and whom iv spent time on the way back from ben macdui 2 winters ago with in a whiteout who wouldnt have believed that they were only 1200m above sea level and how rapidly the weather deteriorated.
In reply to Scott_vzr: dont forget the beaches as well lol
In reply to mattrm: Whaddya mean the start isn't up to much? I got some pretty heavy-duty sarcasm in just before th 10am news cut me off!!
In reply to Richard Baynes: Be careful out there - especially in Partick.
It's the Foxes though, they really are dangerous when Skiing up the hill and Winter Climbing.......
In reply to Ridge:
In reply to dek:
Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
>
> I still would though..
> I still would though..
In reply to dek:
> (In reply to Ridge)
> [...]
> Aw go on then.... Me too!
> [...]
> Aw go on then.... Me too!
Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
In reply to Gav
>
> Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
Why, are you a bit kinky?> Dearie me. Why not horrify us all by revealing who else you would like to have a crack at?
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: Given that the gentle sleetfall in Glasgow just as the presenter handed over to the next show was described as "blizzard conditions", I hate to think what their idea of "treacherous weather" would be.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Oh dear, there's more I'm afraid! Tonight at 11 on BBC 2 on Newsnight Scotland they shall be discussing whether the hills should be 'shut off' during the winter time! This should be interesting......
Oh dear, there's more I'm afraid! Tonight at 11 on BBC 2 on Newsnight Scotland they shall be discussing whether the hills should be 'shut off' during the winter time! This should be interesting......
In reply to Dave Hewitt:
Ha! Just beat me to it
> (In reply to Fat Bumbly2)
>
> They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
>
> They’re about to discuss it again on Newsnicht, BBC2 Scotland, the back of 11…
Ha! Just beat me to it
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
i knew dge was a gobshite but she really is taking the biscuit here. luckily its all irrelevant as any "harbourmaster of the hills" is completely unworkable.
just a pity that bbc scotland chose to capitalise on the the recent deaths of people in our community to get a bit of sensationalist outrage
i knew dge was a gobshite but she really is taking the biscuit here. luckily its all irrelevant as any "harbourmaster of the hills" is completely unworkable.
just a pity that bbc scotland chose to capitalise on the the recent deaths of people in our community to get a bit of sensationalist outrage
In reply to nickyrannoch:
She was worse on the tv than on the radio. I see she blatantly chose to ignore the facts presented to her this morning on the radio regarding the number of deaths due to mountaineering incidents, as opposed to the number of deaths where mountain rescue teams have attended.
When I hear "something must be done", I usually interpret that as politician speak for "I want people to hear my voice".
She was worse on the tv than on the radio. I see she blatantly chose to ignore the facts presented to her this morning on the radio regarding the number of deaths due to mountaineering incidents, as opposed to the number of deaths where mountain rescue teams have attended.
When I hear "something must be done", I usually interpret that as politician speak for "I want people to hear my voice".
In reply to konacol: I'm pretty sure DotGE actually said "Hill walking is a suicide mission". Take care out there folks.
In reply to Scott_vzr:
Not as dangerous as Cheerleading though. They want to look up the top 10 most dangerous sports and have a go at them.
> It's the Foxes though, they really are dangerous when Skiing up the hill and Winter Climbing.......
Not as dangerous as Cheerleading though. They want to look up the top 10 most dangerous sports and have a go at them.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: I heard she ate a johny stuffed with hot chappie dug food on Burn's night.
In reply to The Big Man: Just seen it - what a disgusting ignorant woman. I was horrified to see that the false statistics so elegantly destroyed in the morning were unchallenged and that she was allowed to run the show and had an open goal.
I would like to see Grace-Elder invited to address to something like the MCoS AGM.
I would like to see Grace-Elder invited to address to something like the MCoS AGM.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
They should hire her to post on here about winter ethics, bolts and the likes..
They should hire her to post on here about winter ethics, bolts and the likes..
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Article by David 'Heavy' Whalley here:
http://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/sensationalism-on-mountain-acc...
Article by David 'Heavy' Whalley here:
http://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/sensationalism-on-mountain-acc...
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
The "52 fatalities" statistic was actually regurgitated by the reporter doing the voice-over on the introductory piece.
The good news is that people like Dorothy-Grace Elder (a failed politician) have little real influence on anyone or anybody, and their arguments can easily be demolished by reference to factual evidence if any kind of regulation (which is utterly impractical anyway) ever was seriously mooted.
> (In reply to The Big Man) I was horrified to see that the false statistics so elegantly destroyed in the morning were unchallenged
The "52 fatalities" statistic was actually regurgitated by the reporter doing the voice-over on the introductory piece.
The good news is that people like Dorothy-Grace Elder (a failed politician) have little real influence on anyone or anybody, and their arguments can easily be demolished by reference to factual evidence if any kind of regulation (which is utterly impractical anyway) ever was seriously mooted.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
I was in despair that this so called "well respected informant" had got her facts completely wrong and carried on to another National programme on the BBC. Research should be the key to a good journalism, It was not in this case. I am sure the families of those who have had tragedies do not need this unfair reporting or criticisms on their action.
Shame on the BBC for not putting the true facts out to the public. We must fight to get our point out there despite the efforts of poor reporting. Otherwise the truth is hidden in a cloud of non - sense.
Thanks to all those who commented on my blog yesterday. www.heavywhalley.com
I was in despair that this so called "well respected informant" had got her facts completely wrong and carried on to another National programme on the BBC. Research should be the key to a good journalism, It was not in this case. I am sure the families of those who have had tragedies do not need this unfair reporting or criticisms on their action.
Shame on the BBC for not putting the true facts out to the public. We must fight to get our point out there despite the efforts of poor reporting. Otherwise the truth is hidden in a cloud of non - sense.
Thanks to all those who commented on my blog yesterday. www.heavywhalley.com
In reply to heavy:
Hear hear (says an on-the-fringes journalist who sets great store by research). Hope you’re keeping well, Heavy. Any more Munro rounds in the pipeline?
> Research should be the key to a good journalism
Hear hear (says an on-the-fringes journalist who sets great store by research). Hope you’re keeping well, Heavy. Any more Munro rounds in the pipeline?
No way that Dorothy Grace Elder should have been allowed to knowingly misquote MR stats on Newsnight Scotland unchallenged, after being corrected by a former MRCofS statistician on other BBC output earlier in the day. This is the link you need http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ Please make your feelings known...
In reply to heavy: good effort sir. DGE was appalling and i think most people would come to that conclusion, even those who do not set foot on the hills. Shame on the BBC for repeating misleading information.
In reply to davy_boy:
I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
> intersting listening and well done on some of the mountain rescue callers for getting the facts over. another thing that i hadnt though about till john mentioned it was a lot of the accidents are people from outwith scotland. not sure what the reasons for this would be maybe a lot of people do underestimate the conditions scottish winter can bring especialy in the cairngorm area.
I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Here's a link to a very interesting blog by a man who knows what he's talking about...
http://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/sensationalism-on-mountain-acc...
Here's a link to a very interesting blog by a man who knows what he's talking about...
http://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/sensationalism-on-mountain-acc...
In reply to yer maw: proportionally equal amounts of more is of course a new Mathematical equation some of you may not have heard of!
In reply to yer maw:
Agreed.
I wonder what the relative proportions of accidents involving novices and experts are? Knowledge and experience count for little if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
> I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers
Agreed.
I wonder what the relative proportions of accidents involving novices and experts are? Knowledge and experience count for little if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
In reply to yer maw:
thats not what i said at all i said that maybe some people underestimate the conditions that occur. and thats not an anti outsider statement etc theres plenty of scottish people who also underestimate the conditions.
> (In reply to davy_boy)
> [...]
>
>I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc.> [...]
>
thats not what i said at all i said that maybe some people underestimate the conditions that occur. and thats not an anti outsider statement etc theres plenty of scottish people who also underestimate the conditions.
In reply to yer maw: didn't the annual list of mountain rescues which used to be published in the SMC journal often note 'English' as a reason for accidents ?
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Hi, I was on the radio, and then got dragged into newsnight as well, the woman is basically bonkers, (although she was quite nice of screen). I found myself having to answer direct questions about the weather and the alps, rather than get stick into attacking her ridiculous statements. But it was good to see that the presenter, and the rest of the population see her statements and pointless and nonsense.
Hi, I was on the radio, and then got dragged into newsnight as well, the woman is basically bonkers, (although she was quite nice of screen). I found myself having to answer direct questions about the weather and the alps, rather than get stick into attacking her ridiculous statements. But it was good to see that the presenter, and the rest of the population see her statements and pointless and nonsense.
It's also true that around 60 percent of call outs are non Scottish residents, but not sure how that compared to the proportions of people on the hill. Also the 52 killed is actually 21 mountainous fatalities... More people drowned in their own bathtub in the same year than on the mountain. I didn't get to see the video prelude to the debate, if I'd have heard that 52 number again, I would have refuted it easily.
End If the day, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Access isn't going to be restricted any time soon, and I hope I got the feelings of the typical mountaineer our their.
End If the day, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Access isn't going to be restricted any time soon, and I hope I got the feelings of the typical mountaineer our their.
In reply to Paulcmountain:... And by 'our their' I mean 'out there', damn mobile phone fart text.
In reply to Paulcmountain: you did well and good on you for going on. you came across as calm and decent and by comparison DGE looked slightly unhinged - possibly stressed out through flogging a dead horse all day.
i complained to the BBC. didn't have time to fiddle around with it but here it is anyway:
Full Complaint: Newsnight Scotland 13/2/13 repeated misleading information about the number of fatalities on Scottish mountains. They stated that there were 52 in 2011. This is wrong. The figure is 21 [see www.heavywhalley.co.]. Mountain rescue teams are often involved in searches for missing persons, people who wander off with mental illness and have suicidal tendencies etc. The figure of 52 includes these activities and associated fatalities - but they may have nothing to do with mountaineering accidents. The guest in the show Dorothy Grace Elder also mentioned this figure of 52 deaths in the mountains. In the morning she was a guest on radio Scotland’s Call Kay programme and it was pointed out to her by a former Mountain rescue team leader how misleading this figure of 52 is only for her and the BBC to repeat it again later that day. This is not acceptable and extremely sloppy journalism and could also cause significant distress to the families of those involved.
i complained to the BBC. didn't have time to fiddle around with it but here it is anyway:
Full Complaint: Newsnight Scotland 13/2/13 repeated misleading information about the number of fatalities on Scottish mountains. They stated that there were 52 in 2011. This is wrong. The figure is 21 [see www.heavywhalley.co.]. Mountain rescue teams are often involved in searches for missing persons, people who wander off with mental illness and have suicidal tendencies etc. The figure of 52 includes these activities and associated fatalities - but they may have nothing to do with mountaineering accidents. The guest in the show Dorothy Grace Elder also mentioned this figure of 52 deaths in the mountains. In the morning she was a guest on radio Scotland’s Call Kay programme and it was pointed out to her by a former Mountain rescue team leader how misleading this figure of 52 is only for her and the BBC to repeat it again later that day. This is not acceptable and extremely sloppy journalism and could also cause significant distress to the families of those involved.
I've just watched the programme, having been a (very brief) invited guest on the Call Kaye programme. I thought Paul did well, but again by asking us to engage with the factual detail about weather and conditions we haven't had the chance to squish DGE's position. I was a bit sympathetic to her on Kaye because I rather thought she might have been shoved towards it, but was less sympathetic that she was going for the same sort of lines about suicide missions and human sacrifice (which actually are quite offensive to those who have recently died and their families).
She had however backed off from her "ban it" position after being thoroughly ridiculed and trounced on Kaye, and moved on to the subtler but equally specious idea that the MCof S has got some sort of gubernatorial role and can tell us what to do. Like I say, Paul did well but they could maybe have got someone better qualified like Heather Morning, who was very good on Kaye.
I'm a journalist and know all about making the top line grab people's attention, but not at the expense of missing where the real debate it. And Mac, you are spot on about that statistical blunder: I felt very queasy about it from ther get-go, and looked for info to contradict it. We're not hearing about a mountaineerring death ever week on average, as that figure seems to say.
The sad thing is that an opportunity to debate risk, and the need to promote the sensible negotiation of it, among young people especiallly, has been lost... or has it? Can we use this to promote that idea?
She had however backed off from her "ban it" position after being thoroughly ridiculed and trounced on Kaye, and moved on to the subtler but equally specious idea that the MCof S has got some sort of gubernatorial role and can tell us what to do. Like I say, Paul did well but they could maybe have got someone better qualified like Heather Morning, who was very good on Kaye.
I'm a journalist and know all about making the top line grab people's attention, but not at the expense of missing where the real debate it. And Mac, you are spot on about that statistical blunder: I felt very queasy about it from ther get-go, and looked for info to contradict it. We're not hearing about a mountaineerring death ever week on average, as that figure seems to say.
The sad thing is that an opportunity to debate risk, and the need to promote the sensible negotiation of it, among young people especiallly, has been lost... or has it? Can we use this to promote that idea?
In reply to Richard Baynes: yeah it was all a bit weird that it ended up being me on the show, as although I'm a keen mountaineer and guide, someone from mountain rescue or mcofs probably would have been a bit more authoritative. I felt I kept getting cut off before being able to go in the attack
In reply to Doug:
ha ha Doug how big is your spoon Sir?
> (In reply to yer maw) didn't the annual list of mountain rescues which used to be published in the SMC journal often note 'English' as a reason for accidents ?
ha ha Doug how big is your spoon Sir?
In reply to yer maw: Good response to the newsnicht piece from the MCOfS,
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N11148&nc=Mountain Safety
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N11148&nc=Mountain Safety
In reply to yer maw:
It's just a shame that that particular point was made by the respected John Allen and not by the ignorant Ms Elder!
> (In reply to davy_boy)
> [...]
>
> I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
> [...]
>
> I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South. I think it's too easy to say their lack of knowledge or experience in the Scottish mountains in winter etc. explains the higher numbers when a more rational explanation may simply be there are proportionally equal amounts of more people from down South heading into the hils?!?
It's just a shame that that particular point was made by the respected John Allen and not by the ignorant Ms Elder!
Total hypothesising I think it is easier for someone in Glasgow to decide on a midweek day the night before that the weekend looks crap but conditions look better for tomorrow, let's get out sharpish. But if coming from further afield people have weekend trips planned they and money invested they would still head up. Again total conjecture but when I have been up in Sneachda etc the vast majority of people I chat away with are English more than Scottish so I would hazard a guess their just might be more climbers and winter climbers coming out of England? Bigger population and a bigger rock climbing scene.
In reply to yer maw:
There was a survey in the mid-90s which looked at this. They estimated that 56% of people heading into the Cairngorms lived in Scotland, and about 37% were from south of the border. In the winter, it was pretty much 50:50.
Wonder if that has changed over the years.
Published online here: http://www.snh.gov.uk/publications-data-and-research/publications/search-th...
> I'm not sure but there are ten times more 'Southerners' than Scots in the UK so perhpas that equates to the number of incidents involving people from down South.
There was a survey in the mid-90s which looked at this. They estimated that 56% of people heading into the Cairngorms lived in Scotland, and about 37% were from south of the border. In the winter, it was pretty much 50:50.
Wonder if that has changed over the years.
Published online here: http://www.snh.gov.uk/publications-data-and-research/publications/search-th...
In reply to mac fae stirling:
BBC still can't get it right:
"The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21462218
BBC still can't get it right:
"The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21462218
Also remember that the stat refers to residents, not nationals. the number of English that live in Scotland is significant. but causality on an observation is obviously hard to measure. It could be that they're more tired from all that driving!
In reply to Mark Bull: Ihaven';t looked at the figures in detail but is the distincton that 21 fatalities were actually mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing related, (ie "climbing"c oir "mountaineering" lumped in together, and the rest were lowland/search events/suicides etc?
In reply to Richard Baynes:
Yes.
> (In reply to Mark Bull) Ihaven';t looked at the figures in detail but is the distincton that 21 fatalities were actually mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing related, (ie "climbing"c oir "mountaineering" lumped in together, and the rest were lowland/search events/suicides etc?
Yes.
In reply to Mark Bull:
heavy's blog listed the criteria.
For some reason, fell running isn't counted as mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing.
heavy's blog listed the criteria.
For some reason, fell running isn't counted as mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing.
In reply to Toreador:
That's a little odd, but perhaps fell running means organised races in this context? In any case fatal accidents to fell runners are pretty rare so it won't affect these stats much, if at all.
> For some reason, fell running isn't counted as mountaineering/hillwalking/climbing.
That's a little odd, but perhaps fell running means organised races in this context? In any case fatal accidents to fell runners are pretty rare so it won't affect these stats much, if at all.
In reply to Mark Bull: Yep it's a common event in newsrooms for no distinction to be made between climbing and hill-walking and the terms to be used interchangeably, which can lead to confusion. It is tricky because in this instance where the BBC has used climbing for one year and mountaineering for another (just to vary the way it reads, I think) it makes it look to us as if there is some sort of distinction.
R
R
In reply to Mark Bull:
beggars belief. the MCS could hardly be clearer; “Ms Grace Elder correctly stated that there were 52 fatalities in 2011, but omitted to mention that 31 of these related to non-mountaineering incidents; in the prior year there were a total of 45 fatalities of which 16 were mountaineering and 29 non-mountaineering".
how can news reporters get this wrong?
given the grim news today i expect DGE will surface again..
beggars belief. the MCS could hardly be clearer; “Ms Grace Elder correctly stated that there were 52 fatalities in 2011, but omitted to mention that 31 of these related to non-mountaineering incidents; in the prior year there were a total of 45 fatalities of which 16 were mountaineering and 29 non-mountaineering".
how can news reporters get this wrong?
given the grim news today i expect DGE will surface again..
In reply to chris_s: Thanks for that - complaint submitted.
Grounds of complaint - poor research / misleading the audience. DGE is of course quite entitled to spout pish, though I wish she wouldn't.
Grounds of complaint - poor research / misleading the audience. DGE is of course quite entitled to spout pish, though I wish she wouldn't.
In reply to mac fae stirling:
Pity they didn't get her name right (surely Ms Elder when she's Dorothy-Grace with a hyphen)!
> beggars belief. the MCS could hardly be clearer; “Ms Grace Elder
Pity they didn't get her name right (surely Ms Elder when she's Dorothy-Grace with a hyphen)!
In reply to petestack: I failed too! Had her down as D. Grace-Elder.
Sloppy research!
Sloppy research!
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Interesting that the BBC right now is quoting 'The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related.'
So unless you want to think about that a bit then there were 52 deaths in the mountains in 2011. Obviously 'mountaineers'.
Interesting that the BBC right now is quoting 'The Mountaineering Council of Scotland (MCofS) said there were 52 fatalities on Scotland's mountains in 2011. Of those, 21 were climbing related. The year before, there were 45 fatalities in total, with 16 of those mountaineering related.'
So unless you want to think about that a bit then there were 52 deaths in the mountains in 2011. Obviously 'mountaineers'.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: Just got round to listening to this on i-player. Big thanks to all the mountaineers and hill walkers who did take the time to call in and put forward good, rational arguments to rebut this. Very few calls in support of any restrictions in access. Public opinion clearly not with the scare mongers.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
My views on the subject:
http://www.alexroddie.com/2013/02/the-freedom-of-hills-is-under-threat.html
In summary, I believe that while education for mountaineers can be improved, the public (and by extension the press) also needs some education as well.
Fortunately there are some journalists who are on our side. AFAIK BBC Out of Doors will be debating this issue tomorrow morning.
My views on the subject:
http://www.alexroddie.com/2013/02/the-freedom-of-hills-is-under-threat.html
In summary, I believe that while education for mountaineers can be improved, the public (and by extension the press) also needs some education as well.
Fortunately there are some journalists who are on our side. AFAIK BBC Out of Doors will be debating this issue tomorrow morning.
In reply to Andy Say:
Unfortunately the bbc article tags on the MCofS comments at the end of the article about the avalanche in the Cairngorms which covers the fatalities involved. To my eyes, it reads as though the BBC have asked the MCofS about the fatalities and this was their response - it's now out of context and efectively defeats its purpose.
Unfortunately the bbc article tags on the MCofS comments at the end of the article about the avalanche in the Cairngorms which covers the fatalities involved. To my eyes, it reads as though the BBC have asked the MCofS about the fatalities and this was their response - it's now out of context and efectively defeats its purpose.
In reply to Only a hill:
Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
In reply to drmarten: I also don't think it is..
I think the majority still really don't give two hoots.
It's a threat that is totally unenforceable, impractical and wrong and a seconds thinking will highlight that so such action will never happen.
I think the majority still really don't give two hoots.
It's a threat that is totally unenforceable, impractical and wrong and a seconds thinking will highlight that so such action will never happen.
In reply to drmarten:
I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
> Alex you say that you are worried that 'the tide of public opinion is starting to turn against winter mountaineers' in the linked article. What exactly are you worried about - what's the worst that can happen? I can't see public opinion affecting my freedom to go on the hills in winter. What is it you're concerned about (loss of any funding, right to roam etc) - I'm genuinely curious?
I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
In reply to Only a hill:
I agree a less sympathetic public can't be made into a positive and criticism from the media can irritate or even cause offence but I'm not bothered about being embraced or otherwise by the public. If there are to be no practical implications I can live with a bit of tut-tutting.
I agree a less sympathetic public can't be made into a positive and criticism from the media can irritate or even cause offence but I'm not bothered about being embraced or otherwise by the public. If there are to be no practical implications I can live with a bit of tut-tutting.
In reply to Only a hill:
I understand that.. I'm just not sure such idiotic arguments should even be given credibility through a response.. let alone official responses from the BMC etc.
A number of times I've logged into such sites thinking of responding then backed off as I worry responding with reasoned argument makes there argument also of a reasonable nature.. but I do understand why people want to respond.. I'm just not sure its worth it.
When its alarmist, impractical, poorly thought through and from a position of total or near total ignorance.
There are people who almost rub their hands with glee with such incidents and rush to the comments boards to have their say. You see it with runners, occassionally a runner does die of hypothermia and you get the 'I told you.. poorly dressed runner..'.. and you get it with climbers on steep snow covered slopes..
I just think those people just miss the whole point of enjoying mountain sports/activities, with the associated risk and its challenges being such an integral part of that activity, that the chance of changing their minds is minimal.
> (In reply to drmarten)
> [...]
>
> I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
> [...]
>
> I can't see rights etc. being affected, but a less sympathetic public can't be a good thing however you look at things. Will there be practical implications? Who knows--but I would prefer to be part of a community/subculture that is embraced by the public, not routinely criticised in the press.
I understand that.. I'm just not sure such idiotic arguments should even be given credibility through a response.. let alone official responses from the BMC etc.
A number of times I've logged into such sites thinking of responding then backed off as I worry responding with reasoned argument makes there argument also of a reasonable nature.. but I do understand why people want to respond.. I'm just not sure its worth it.
When its alarmist, impractical, poorly thought through and from a position of total or near total ignorance.
There are people who almost rub their hands with glee with such incidents and rush to the comments boards to have their say. You see it with runners, occassionally a runner does die of hypothermia and you get the 'I told you.. poorly dressed runner..'.. and you get it with climbers on steep snow covered slopes..
I just think those people just miss the whole point of enjoying mountain sports/activities, with the associated risk and its challenges being such an integral part of that activity, that the chance of changing their minds is minimal.
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: for info http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N11148&nc=Mountain%20Sa...
The MCofS is still waiting for a response from Newsnight Scotland
The MCofS is still waiting for a response from Newsnight Scotland
In reply to Fat Bumbly2: We've just published an article by David Heavy Whalley that fleshes out the responses he made on the Call Kaye show: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5258
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