/ Employing Foreign Immigrants

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a foreign immigrant, the first guy didnt even speak any English. Surely we have enough young Brits who would love to have these jobs, why are they going to foreigners? It really is about time immigration was stopped and we started giving our own people more opportunities. I've heard Cameron say it, how about some action to make it a reality?
mike123 - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: yawn
Tall Clare - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

If the opportunities are there for everyone, are foreign nationals being prioritised over UK nationals, or is it that some UK nationals lack the work ethic of some foreign workers?
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:

I just get the impression this country seems to be run by immigrants these days. I find it annoyingly sad, especially with the level of youth unemployment.
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: second time in 2 weeks? you should live in the lakes!
Tall Clare - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Is that the fault of immigrants though, or of those UK nationals who don't motivate themselves to work?
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: everyone has the right to a better life. in slovakia and poland the minimum wage is something like 220 euro a month and the cost of living is similar to here. its the fault of the government for allowing so many of them to come. most of them are nice, hard working folk
ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Did you raise it with the owner?
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123:

Exactly. Our Government is'nt helping our own people.
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:

Somehow, I dont think its my business to challenge the decisions business owners make. If I disagree with them, it isnt going to change anything.
Tall Clare - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to heidi123)
>
> Exactly. Our Government is'nt helping our own people.

How so?
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: our governments crap
ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
>
> Somehow, I dont think its my business to challenge the decisions business owners make. If I disagree with them, it isnt going to change anything.

I didn't ask you to challenge the owners business decisions. I was just suggesting you ask him about it, maybe have a reasonable discussion about it with him and see it from his point of view. There could be a multitude of reasons why he hired an immigrant worker rather than a local and you could have come away from the situation with your questions answered.

Dave Perry - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Two simple reasons for those people who are not English being here:-

a) They want the job - and can do it.
b) Too many lazy folk living happily enough off benefits who won't, or cannot do those jobs.
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Perry: exactly right
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:

I dont wish to comment on how successive governments have failed our population, its too exhausting to focus on all the negatives I see. Generally the majority of the population finally see through modern day politics, sadly they are disinterested, they have enough worries trying to live in this insane world. I often think, does the world really have to be the way it is? Do people have to be as selfish? Is our current system sustainable, is it really the best way of doing things?
ranger*goy on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

We took on 3 temps at xmas (retail), one of whom was eastern european and she was the person who got the position permanently. She was the best choice IMO. One of the others was ok but not quite up to it and the other just didnt turn up one day and was never seen again.

Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Perry:

Well a business round the corner employed english folk, one only 17 and he had a great attitude. I cant decided am I generalising about the situation, or are you?
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: here in the lakes, in the tourism industry (hotels, restaurants etc) i would say the majority of workers are from eastern europe. they are unskilled jobs and easy to get. but the workers tend to be more reliable and harder working than a lot of Brits. the down side is that a lot of them dont know their rights and dont go to citizens advice for help and get badly treated at work. many people up here are quite racist too
Only a hill - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
Have you ever actually got to know a foreign immigrant? I have worked with several Polish immigrants, and without exception they are the loveliest, hardest-working people I have ever met.

Instead of endless 19th century style whingeing about 'foreigners stealing our jobs', perhaps British workers just need to get their acts together and look at how they could adopt some of the admirable qualities possessed by foreign immigrants.

Or should we abandon a hundred and fifty years of social progress and go back to hating and mistrusting people from other countries?
ads.ukclimbing.com
tspoon1981 on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> Is that the fault of immigrants though, or of those UK nationals who don't motivate themselves to work?

I think the problem, well problems, are, generally the Hospitality industry, especially entry level positions, bar staff, waiters, kp's etc, aren't seen as respectable avenues to a career in Britain. From my experience, there appears to be far too many 18-24 year olds who seem to think the world owes them a managerial position/company car/head chef job/£22 an hour. I have managed bars and restaurants for years, and the younger, British staff coming through the doors now seem to be mollycoddled, pampered and generally inept. I think most managers will hire the most suitable person for the job, unfortunately, most of the British kids I meet of late just aren't the people I would want to hire. That's not to say their aren't some stars coming through, its just they are few and far between.

Although, I would never hire anyone for a FOH position who couldn't speak English.
Doug on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: So no Brits can work in bars outside the UK ? pity for students wanting to learn/improve a second language
ranger*goy on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Doug:

Or those that go to spain or somewhere sunny to start a business.
Graeme Alderson on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill: Apparently Blizzard is a 2nd generation Polish immigrant which makes his attitude bizarre
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill: totaly agree. i have worked with loads of poles, slovaks, czechs, hungarians, romanians. i would rather work with them than with english folk. they are much more intelligent and harder working. they know a tremendous amount about the history of their countries, and other countries and are really interesting to talk to. my boyfriend is actually from slovakia.
Only a hill - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
> (In reply to Only a hill) Apparently Blizzard is a 2nd generation Polish immigrant which makes his attitude bizarre

Tragic how history repeats itself. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the ultra right wing / BNP types who want immigrants out are probably descended from immigrants themselves.

The last two centuries have taught us that nothing good comes out of Nationalism. Internationalism is the way forward.
Ridge - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Perry:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> Two simple reasons for those people who are not English being here:-
>
> a) They want the job - and can do it.
> b) Too many lazy folk living happily enough off benefits who won't, or cannot do those jobs.

You forgot the third:

c) Wages are so low that only people prepared to live in sub-standard accomodation for a couple of years whilst saving what amounts to a significant sum in their home country, (but a pittance in the UK), can make a living from it.
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

I was in the pub with a friend who got offended at the attitude the foreigner demonstrated with us. She was not impressed. How can anyone defend giving someone a job in a pub that doesnt speak English in England?

P.S I have worked abroad, when you work abroad its sink or swim and you have to work twice as hard to stay afloat. Not only that but you have to win friends as you are the outsider and alone. I have also been discriminated against and fired abroad, so dont need lecturing on here.

I wont go into my own personal circumstances, but I do have a set of circumstances I dont wish to discuss in public on here. I make a few postings on here simply as observations on daily life. Don't judge me on a few postings made on UKC.
Douglas Griffin - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Funny how quickly the thread has veered from being about 'non-British' people to 'non-English' people.
Only a hill - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
If you will post intolerant, incoherent right wing rants then what do you expect? This is not exactly a friendly forum for that point of view!
ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Calm dude. Breath. No ones lecturing you...it's just that you're coming across a little bit ranty.

Now that you've added that you were 'offended by the attitude the foreigner demonstrated' (which I think is more than you said in the opening statement - that was just about not speaking English), I would have thought that was even more of a reason to start a discussion with the owner - you wouldn't have been 'questioning his business decisions', you'd have been bringing a legitimate grievance to his attention.
Bimble on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

When I left uni, I worked a series of factory jobs for an agency as there was no work doing what I wanted to be doing. One of those jobs, which I stayed in for nearly 8 months, involved me working with a couple of English lads, 3 Lithuanians, 2 Polish and an Iraqi. We had a series of other English blokes come & go but never stayed as they lacked the work ethic; turned up late, didn't bother, skived off, and in the case of one, went home halfway through his first day because he thought it was shite (it wasn't too bad a job at that one, not mind-numbing anyway). The Eastern European lads were always there on time, worked hard, didn't shirk off, had a brilliant sense of humour and pulled together as a team.

The same jobs are advertised and available for anyone to apply for, so surely the best candidate for the job got it? Nothing to do with it being mandatory to give jobs to what you call 'immigrants' (a vile phrase anyway, considering we are all immigrants in the UK if you go back far enough), and jobs which are for all, not just one nationality.
redsonja - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: why was your friend offended by this "foreigner"? what did the "foreigner" do/say?
Blizzard - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:

I kind of disagree. I think I will stop posting on here, because people are getting the wrong end of the stick. It seems there is a lack of freedom of speech in the UK, and on here. If you make any comments that are not PC or conventional you get shot down. Bye
Rob Exile Ward on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: 'how about some action to make it a reality?'

What do you propose?

Just to recap - the free mobility of labour is an important part of EU legislation, we've benefited from it - look at expats working in Spain or France - and in fact we've benefited from having scarce skills come and bale us out on building sites and in hospitals. People with the right to work here have exactly the same rights that indigenous workers do, if Polish bar staff are getting less than the minimum wage then that is illegal - and once reported, my understanding is that it is taken quite seriously.

Perhaps part of the problem is that young unemployed Brits keep on listening to all the Daily Mail ranting and assume that it isn't their fault that they keep loosing out at interviews to them thar furriners?
ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
>
> I kind of disagree. I think I will stop posting on here, because people are getting the wrong end of the stick. It seems there is a lack of freedom of speech in the UK, and on here. If you make any comments that are not PC or conventional you get shot down. Bye

Disagree with what? The ranty part? Ok, I take it back and I'm sorry if I've been aggressive at any point. It was a genuine question though, it's sad that you didn't feel able to raise a genuine concern with the owner because I think it could have been a fruitful discussion. He 'may' have had a load of Brits in and found them rubbish, or he could have gone for a cheaper / cash in hand immigrant. We'll never know.

I do think it's a little unfair to change the nature of your post halfway through however. It started off with you being upset because they couldn't speak English and then became about how the barman had offended you with his behaviour. That puts a completely different complexion on the matter.

TC

Lantys Tarn - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123:
> (In reply to Blizzard) second time in 2 weeks? you should live in the lakes!

+1
yorkshireman - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
>
> I kind of disagree. I think I will stop posting on here, because people are getting the wrong end of the stick. It seems there is a lack of freedom of speech in the UK, and on here. If you make any comments that are not PC or conventional you get shot down. Bye

You've been free to speak, its just that the vast majority of people disagree with you. You can have an opinion, you've just ably demonstrated that your opinion is ill-thought out, bigoted rubbish.

Getting 'shot down' is not lack of freedom of speech.

BTW, I'm a 'foreign' immigrant (is there any other kind?). Do I need to go 'home'?
Dauphin - on 13 Mar 2013
Alex Slipchuk on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: without reduction to the ridiculous, can the racists concerned please type to avoid immigrant bashing. You're truly showing your stupidity by falling for the old trick of blaming your fellow workers whilst being blind to the shafting up your own arse by the ruling class. People travel, people work.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Dax H - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: Approaches parapet, peeks over, ducks. Thinks a bit, puts head above parapet.
I have had many an application from eastern Europeans but they never get as far as an interview as I won't employ them, not because I am rasist or prejudice in any way though. My policy is only to employ British nationals, colour, sex or disability have no bearing on it but you must be a British national because I want the money that my company earns to stay in the UK and benefit the UK economy.
I have worked with a lot of eastern Europeans and they work a lot harder than most of the British people I have worked with but I still only employ British for the reason stated above in exactly the same way that I will buy my supplies from British manufacturers instead of Chinese ones even though it costs more
before anyone starts accusing me of being rasist, xenophobic or a daily mail reader you could not be further from the truth. I have good friends who are polish, indian, African, Chinese and 1 Moldovian.
Climbs down and back behind the parapet.
ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
> before anyone starts accusing me of being rasist,

Wouldn't dream of it. Might accuse you of being a bit racist though.

ThunderCat - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:

You point blank refuse to employ someone because of their nationality, refusing in fact to even give them the chance of an interview regardless of their skill, ability, qualifications etc whilst stating you are not racist or prejudiced....?
ice.solo - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

i got served by a bloody australian the other day!

not sure what was the worst element was; they were foreign? they were from asia? they were probaby taking their money away with them? they had darker skin?

if it hadnt happen in tokyo i would have been really upset.
muppetfilter - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to yorkshireman: Its a shame that the true issues are being badly presented here. I live in York, a town famed for Rowntrees world first study of poverty and living conditions. As a kid growing up Rowntrees was seen as an employer giving a job for life, a nestle buyout and 15 years later 95% of production has gone overseas and all thats left after a few managerial jobs are a few hunder temps of eastern european extraction who work like loons for two weeks and are then dropped.... With no sick pay, holliday pay, medical care etc.
Of course what happened to Nestle is very little to do with the european freedoms we enjoy but multinational stratergy, it does show the polar shift in the workplace.

While economic migration is fantastic for the migrant who can earn and send money home it is also great for the employer as they have a maleable workforce who will work for less than minimum wage. It drives down wages for the workforce as a whole and introduces a terrifying grey area of shadey qualifications like the one with unqualified NHS Nursing staff.

With these points in mind it may well be a time to rethink our policies as what is good for the economy is not necessarily good for the nation as a whole.
andic - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Perry:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> Two simple reasons for those people who are not English being here:-
>
> a) They want the job - and can do it.
> b) Too many lazy folk living happily enough off benefits who won't, or cannot do those jobs.

This kind of comment reminds me of the meet the fockers scene when De Niro says "that's all? oh well I feel much better now; Greg's said thats all so that's okay then!"


I really cannot blame foreign workers for coming here(I have done it elsewhere) but I do think there is an imbalance, which must come from govt. I have worked along with Poles and Lithuanians in those typical transport warehouse jobs and like them having shared a fair amount of time with them, it is true that they are hard working mainly because they want to provide for their families and are very independent, but I would rather have British people off benefits and in work with foreign workers topping up the labour market rather than forming it's back bone.

Blaming the situation on lazy benefits class is a bit lazy itself, we do have a lazy benefits class but who created it? New labour and anyone who voted for them, yes your house price sky rocketed but so did the client state and benefits claimants are part of that clientele. Also I know that businesses such as Next and New look and Sports World/Direct were actively recruiting in Poland for their warehouse operations in the UK short circuiting the UK labour market, even though they had received subsidies and planning preference for building their warehouses near former pit villages.

I believe in personal responsibility and don't disagree with foreign workers but see the current situation as non-ideal and blame the govt+EU, recruiters and spoilt british workers in that order.
Jim C - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a foreign immigrant, the first guy didnt even speak any English. Surely we have enough young Brits who would love to have these jobs, why are they going to foreigners? It really is about time immigration was stopped and we started giving our own people more opportunities. I've heard Cameron say it, how about some action to make it a reality?

There is a fabric recycling centre near me, it was started by a polish chap, and he employes only polish, and even the driver that comes to pick up the fabric comes from Poland and the fabric is transported to Poland to get processed.

Why, because no local people want to do the work and sort it at a price that makes it viable. I'm not saying that the local people are lazy, (but the owner did)
ice.solo - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

i think theres loads of motivated brits, semi-skilled, young & old, happy to do a bit of hard work.
thing is, it seems they all want to do it in austalia, new zealand, canada and the med (legally and otherwise).

maybe an exchange program of sorts?

(and yes, i have nothing to contribute to this thread other than sarcastic comments from an expat)
Walter Mitty - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to TryfAndy: You actually only have to go back 5 years. That's how long you have to have lived here for to be able to apply for British nationality
In reply to Blizzard:
> Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a foreign immigrant, the first guy didnt even speak any English. Surely we have enough young Brits who would love to have these jobs, why are they going to foreigners? It really is about time immigration was stopped and we started giving our own people more opportunities. I've heard Cameron say it, how about some action to make it a reality?

I agree. We really should only be employing British (or preferably just English) immigrants.
Chris Shorter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Approaches parapet, peeks over, ducks. Thinks a bit, puts head above parapet.
> I have had many an application from eastern Europeans but they never get as far as an interview as I won't employ them, not because I am rasist or prejudice in any way though. My policy is only to employ British nationals, colour, sex or disability have no bearing on it but you must be a British national because I want the money that my company earns to stay in the UK and benefit the UK economy.

Your employmnet policy is actually illegal in the UK now as the definition of race discrimination has recently been extended to include nationality:

"Race discrimination occurs when a person is treated less favourably because of race, colour, and nationality, ethnic or national origin."

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1849
The New NickB - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
>
> I kind of disagree. I think I will stop posting on here, because people are getting the wrong end of the stick. It seems there is a lack of freedom of speech in the UK, and on here. If you make any comments that are not PC or conventional you get shot down. Bye

You seem to misunderstand freedom of speech.
Dax H - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:
> (In reply to Dax H)
>
> You point blank refuse to employ someone because of their nationality, refusing in fact to even give them the chance of an interview regardless of their skill, ability, qualifications etc whilst stating you are not racist or prejudiced....?

My prejudice is to support the UK economy, every time I advertise a job opening
I get hundereds of applications ranging from under to very over qualified so why waste time interviewing non UK applications when I can only interview x amount of people and I can fill that number easy with UK folks.
Is my policy of using UK manufacturing and supply also racist? I find that we have more than enough of our own population looking for work, hell desperate to work (the last person I set on actually broke down in tears when I gave her the job) that I have neither the need or desire to look towards immigration.
You carry on branding me a racist though, I am sure my non UK friends will find it amusing.
ThunderCat - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
> [...]
>

> You carry on branding me a racist though, I am sure my non UK friends will find it amusing.

I'm simply examining the facts as you state them.

You refuse to even consider employing someone based purely on their nationality.
You make use of the phrase 'Im not a rasist (sic) but...'
You throw in the fact that you have non-english friends.

There's a fair bit of doublethink going on there. Thats what I find amusing.
ThunderCat - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:

And as Chris points out, what you're doing may be illegal. Best not shout about to much in non-internet situations.. :)
Chris Shorter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> You carry on branding me a racist though, I am sure my non UK friends will find it amusing.

It doesn't matter what people on here or your friends think, the law of your country identifies you as indulging in racist activity:

"For the purposes of the Act ‘race’ includes colour, nationality and ethnic or national origins."

You should really read up on the 2010 Equality Act if you are an employer.
New POD - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a foreign immigrant, the first guy didnt even speak any English. Surely we have enough young Brits who would love to have these jobs, why are they going to foreigners? It really is about time immigration was stopped and we started giving our own people more opportunities. I've heard Cameron say it, how about some action to make it a reality?

Was he an EU national ? Did he have a British Commonwealth Passport ? Does he have a work permit? Married to a UK national ? Paying Tax and National Insurance ? Is he an overseas Student, who is paying to study in the UK ?

All these people are allowed to work in a PUB, if the manager thinks they are the brest applicant.

Why are they going to foreigners ? Erm they work harder ? I can only speak with a small sample size but when I was a production cell leader the 2 hardest workers in my section out of 26 staff were Polish. The 5 slackers were white, working class from Runcorn. The most rascist ? White, Scouse and stupid.

Is it about time imigrantion stopped ? What gives us the right to say who can live and work in a particular part of the world. What would happen if when the Scots achieved Independence, that England Said "Right all those born in Scotland "p**S off" ?

Opportunities ? I realise that for some people it's hard, but how many people actually walked the streets with a CV and went in EVERY shop, office and factory within 10 miles of where they live.

When I was made redundant, in may 2009, I spent 3 days handing out 120 CV's during the day, and applying for jobs in the Evening. I stopped because I got an Interview from a job I'd applied for online, and needed to spend 3 days actually finding out how to do the job (Thank you wikepedia). In the November I had 2 calls from local pubs asking if I was still available for work coming up to Christmas (I wasn't). Had I not got that first job, I would have been walking and handing out 50 CV's a day now.

Finally, If Cameron said anything I'd think have to assume that it was a well thought out reasonable statement, so it must be true.
Moggsy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123: so it's not about the people and the attitude they have to work, but the wages are being suppressed by these economic migrants who will work for pennies and not a fair wage a Brit would and should expect...not this minimum wage bollocks.
Ffat Boi - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:

+1 Like
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
> [...]
>
> My prejudice is to support the UK economy, every time I advertise a job opening

Smashing. Unfortunately it's illegal, so if you use an agency or a job centre to advertise jobs probably best not to brag about it to them.

> Is my policy of using UK manufacturing and supply also racist?

Of course not. It might be commercially stupid if said bits are poorer quality and/or more expensive, but if you're a private company without shareholders that's entirely up to you. If you have shareholders you might want to check it out with them.

> You carry on branding me a racist though, I am sure my non UK friends will find it amusing.

I'm sure you're not a racist at all - but your employment policies are illegal. Do your principles stretch as far as refusing a job to your "non-UK" friends? And can you just clarify how you define "UK national"? What about a Polish chap who applies for a UK passport after living here for ten years? Does he qualify?

ads.ukclimbing.com
redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Moggsy: i recently started work in a hotel, along with another english lady. at the interview it sounded like a fantastic job. after 3 days we realised we had been lied to at the interview. the job was horrible and the staff were treated very badly.apparently we were the only english that had ever worked there. on the 5th day we both went in to work and said we would work that day but wouldnt go back. they have polish and romanian staff who just put up with it. they know they are being badly treated but dont/cant say anything (maybe because of the language barrier its harded to say things)and as a result they are treated like s**t. one romanian girl is heavily pregnant and she was humping heavy laundry bags up and downstairs whle the owner sat in the office playing games on the internet. the difference is, english people leave these jobs, foreign workers dont. but the government is at fault for allowing this to happen
EeeByGum - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Moggsy:
> (In reply to heidi123) so it's not about the people and the attitude they have to work, but the wages are being suppressed by these economic migrants who will work for pennies and not a fair wage a Brit would and should expect...not this minimum wage bollocks.

You seem to be assuming that if all the immigrants working for low wages packed their bags and left, employers would suddenly start paying UK workers a "fair" wage.

Wages are set by the market and kept artificially high by the government's minimum wage. The reason wages are not higher is because as consumers like you and me are not prepared to pay more for our stuff. The reason there is a chronic shortage of semi / unskilled work in this country is because our minimum wage is still x4 - x10 times higher than in other parts of the world. If you want to earn a "fair" wage in this country, you need to train in a skill that you can sell at a premium. Anyone can do unskilled work so why pay a premium for it?
John W - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123:

a) "one romanian girl is heavily pregnant and she was humping heavy laundry bags up and downstairs"

ok, sounds a bit harsh

b) "whle the owner sat in the office playing games on the internet"

err, and what the owner does with his/her time has got what to do with you, precisely?
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
> [...]
>
> I agree. We really should only be employing British (or preferably just English) immigrants.

Damn, the early bird gets the worm! I was going to use "native immigrants" though :-)
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
>
>
> P.S I have worked abroad

But by your reckoning, you should not have been allowed to. Regardless, even, of whether you speak the language of the country in which you were doing this work (though indulge me - do you speak that language)?

Though you have already flounced off so I suppose you won't reply. My loss.
redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to John W: he could help a pregnant girl carry laundry bags. he also took the tips which were left to us and which we were told we would get. we were told we got "all our meals" at work. in 5 days i had half a bit of toast. the romanian girl wasnt even allowed to sit down and her feet swelled up really badly by the end of a 14hr day
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:

> I want the money that my company earns to stay in the UK and benefit the UK economy.

Do you forbid your "British National" employees from letting any of their money benefit other nations' economies? So they are not allowed to go on holiday in Spain, buy a bottle of French wine, use petrol, buy trainers manufactured in China, etc. etc.? Sounds, er, great!
dissonance - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

> Wages are set by the market and kept artificially high by the government's minimum wage. The reason wages are not higher is because as consumers like you and me are not prepared to pay more for our stuff.

if wages are artifically high do you care to explain why a rather large part of the welfare budget goes on supporting those who are in work but are below the living wage?
EeeByGum - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to dissonance:

> if wages are artifically high do you care to explain why a rather large part of the welfare budget goes on supporting those who are in work but are below the living wage?

Part of the problem is the horrendous price of housing in this country. If there were an oversupply of housing, it would be cheap which would mean that people on low wages could still afford to live in modest housing. However, increasing the minimum wage would simply mean prices could go up to accommodate the increased wages. The rich get richer and the poor stay exactly where they are.

JSA - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I know of a few companies who will employ only eastern european workers even though they will interview anyone.
If it's illegal then who do I report them to?
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to JSA:
> (In reply to Blue Straggler)
>
> I know of a few companies who will employ only eastern european workers even though they will interview anyone.
> If it's illegal then who do I report them to?

I would imagine the Equal Opportunities people could help:

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/guidance-for-workers/what-to-do-if-you-believ...

But I guess you'd have to have some proof that they were actively pursuing a policy of only employing eastern European workers.
muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to andy: "But I guess you'd have to have some proof that they were actively pursuing a policy of only employing eastern European workers"

Exactly. Its a fluffy law that keeps the liberals happy yet seems virtually impossible to enforce and a doddle to evade (notwithstanding Dax's admission but obviously keeps him and the Polish employer mentioned happy as well)

Job done ;-)

JSA - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:

From your link...

"One of our main activities is the recruitment of skilled personnel for the engineering construction industry and for other sectors: engineers, technicians, tradesmen (welders, carpenters, bricklayers etc.) and labour."

The companies I know are engineering/fabrication companies. I know lots of fabricators/welders who are out of work or are not working in their trade because of the influx. I'm a joiner, and I also know of dozens of joiners and other skilled trades who are also either out of work or not working in their trade. A lot of them are actually selling their tools because they no longer see themselves ever working in the trade they trained for 4+ years in.

There is something fundamentaly not right when this happens.

Blame it on the influx of foreign labour and be branded racist/xenophobic etc. It's a no win situation for the british worker.
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to andy) Here is an agency doing just that !!!
>
> http://www.cestaffing.co.uk/?gclid=CPydhuPz-7UCFW_KtAodmlAA3Q

You do realise they're a recruitment agency, not an employer, don't you? They recruit workers on behalf of other companies, who are at liberty to employ who they like, subject to the laws of the country they're operating in.

It's the same as a UK recruitment agency telling companies in the US "we can get you skilled web-developers from the EU".
muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to andy: Its one thing to recruit due to a skills shortage ... Its another because they work for less.
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to JSA:

Why are you asking me? I haven't mentioned legality anywhere on this thread
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Sorry I haven't the thread, this might have already been explained - but the policy story over the past decade or so is as follows:

Economic boom (Labour):
- work permits given out easily
- low-skilled work schemes for agriculture mainly used by Eastern Europeans pre-accession
- high-skilled schemes to attract migrants with money and skills.

Accession (A8 - Poland etc - Labour):
- Economy still has stacks of vacancies, employers lobby govt not to impose controls to delay access to Labour market
- More Poles etc come the the UK than expected and the impact on services is noticed and criticised
- Maximum controls placed on Romania and Bulgaria

Economic bust (Labour):
- Policy doesn't really change

Economic bust (Tory):
- All economic migration from outside EU shut down
- Everyone complains because of EU migration and past policies which were response to economic conditions of the time

So, the only thing the govt can do now to reduce migration is leave the EU. You'll need to ask a load of economists whether the advantage of reducing migration is outweighed by the disadvantage of loss of access to the common market. No one knows for sure, but most sensible people think it is.

Put simply, govt policy on immigration is just a function of economics: when in a boom, you let people in, when there's a bust, you try to keep them out. The problem is that it's not really that simple, because once people are here their families will follow (we don't think it's right allow one person permission to live here but not their husband/wife/kids) and the idea of turning immigration on and off like a tap is a fallacy for many reasons I don't have time to explain.

It's an unwinnable policy area, in which everyone will moan whatever decision the govt make. Choke off growth in a boom so you don't have too many foreigners here in the bust? Not going to be popular. Leave the EU? Well it's gaining ground but it's hardly without drawbacks.
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter: You pays your money and takes your choice - we (the UK) benefit from being part of a trading bloc that allows free movement of workers and goods. I suspect that the benefits outweigh the downsides - if we went all protectionist then a few brickies might get a short term pay-rise as Poles wouldn't be able to work here, but then our exporters would suffer, imports would get more expensive and then those same brickies would be out of work because nobosy'd be able to afford the house they're building.
JSA - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to andy:
> (In reply to muppetfilter) You pays your money and takes your choice - we (the UK) benefit from being part of a trading bloc that allows free movement of workers and goods. I suspect that the benefits outweigh the downsides - if we went all protectionist then a few brickies might get a short term job as Poles wouldn't be able to work here, but then our exporters would suffer, imports would get more expensive and then those same brickies would be out of work again because nobosy'd be able to afford the house they're building.

There, fixed that for you ;)

ads.ukclimbing.com
Al Evans on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: Here in Spain the great majority of drugs, traffiking and prostituition gangs reported in the papers every week are eastern european. I think 20 years ago they used to be Brits, but the point is that it makes those nationalities very unpopular among honest Spaniards and ex-pats.
A lot of them came tp Spain during the construction boom, always a disaster waiting to happen. Now their presence is resented and 90% of eastern european construction workers are out of work. The fact as to why they have turned to illegal practices seems obvious to me, but the thing is that due to the EU (which I fully support) legislation they cannot be sent back home. Spain is not in a position to provide them all with welfare so the ones that don't want to turn to crime take poorly paid jobs in the 'black economy', which causes more resentment etc etc etc.
EeeByGum - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to andy) Its one thing to recruit due to a skills shortage ... Its another because they work for less.

But who is to blame for that? The foreign workers who are prepared to work for less, or the employers / customers who prefer to pay less? We are all quite happy to pay cash-in-hand to avoid paying VAT. Everyone is happy to pay less. If tradesmen want to be paid more, they need us, the paying customer to pay more surely? In other words, it is all our fault for not wanting to pay more for work done. I believe it is called capitalism.
Tall Clare - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Here in Spain the great majority of drugs, traffiking and prostituition gangs reported in the papers every week are eastern european. I think 20 years ago they used to be Brits, but the point is that it makes those nationalities very unpopular among honest Spaniards and ex-pats.

Those nationalities - the way your sentence is constructed, I take it you mean 'those nationalities' are Eastern Europeans *and* Brits?

> A lot of them came tp Spain during the construction boom, always a disaster waiting to happen.

Er... why? Cheap labour to fulfil excessive money-driven demand, surely? Is it different to the Brits heading over to Germany in the 80s, etc?






IainRUK - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
> [...]
>
> My prejudice is to support the UK economy, every time I advertise a job opening
>

Having a more successful business supports the UK economy.. immigrants spend money in the UK you know..
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Dax H)
> [...]
>
> Having a more successful business supports the UK economy.. immigrants spend money in the UK you know..

Some on this thread would have it that the "foreign immigrants" live under a blanket and send all their money home ! :-)
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
> Have you ever actually got to know a foreign immigrant? I have worked with several Polish immigrants, and without exception they are the loveliest, hardest-working people I have ever met.

That's quite a claim, every Polish person you have ever met is lovlier and harder working than anyone else you have ever met? I personally think that's quite a patronising attitude to the Poles.

> Instead of endless 19th century style whingeing about 'foreigners stealing our jobs', perhaps British workers just need to get their acts together and look at how they could adopt some of the admirable qualities possessed by foreign immigrants.
>

More servile? Work longer hours than paid for?

Yes the UK has a problem with benefits culture and at the start there were vacanies for lower paid jobs in the boom years, but it's now a race to the bottom which only effects lower piad workers. General improvements in living conditions are being eroded but only in some professions.






Andy S - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: maybe they'll force us to raise our game and match their work ethic, if that's why they are being employed over natives.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Foreign immigrants? By the way you forgot to start your post with "I'm not racist but...."
ThunderCat - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> Foreign immigrants? By the way you forgot to start your post with "I'm not racist but...."


it actually came later in the post.

Only a hill - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> [...]
>
> That's quite a claim, every Polish person you have ever met is lovlier and harder working than anyone else you have ever met? I personally think that's quite a patronising attitude to the Poles.

Take it how you like, but it happens to be true. I am friends with several Polish people (from my time up in Scotland) and they stand out as being friendlier, more polite, and harder-working than most other people I have known.
Enty - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:
> (In reply to PeterM)
> [...]
>
>
> it actually came later in the post.

With boring inevitability. As far as weak arguments go it's up there with accusing someone of being a Daily mail reader.

E
muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill: You base your entire generalisation of a nation on a few blokes you met in a pub ....
redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill: i agree with this. not only poles but slovaks, czechs, romanians, russians, bulgarians
redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123: this isnt just a few blokes i met in a pub. i have travelled extensively in their countries aswell
alan1961 - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: What a muppet!!!! Don't you realise employment is like survival. It's how much you want it that counts.

The jobs market is a free economy, if your willing to work hard and accept the wage offered you will get the jobs, whatever your nationality.

I employ both immigrant and uk employees and will continue to do so. I work in an industry were budgets are tight and profits are hard to make so it is important that people come to work with the right attitude and are prepared to earn their wages.

By the way I'm British but feel ashamed of a lot of my fellow brits who are quite happy to sit back on state benefits and not even make the effort to work.

I trained as an engineer in the 70's specialising in airframe design, but after finding myself unemployed in the 80's I worked in various jobs from cleaning to working on the council bins I eventually worked my way back into engineering, in general fabrication and construction.

I was always brought up with a strong work ethic and a need to earn money to support myself. If a few more Brits grew up with the same attitude, they would be no jobs for the immigrants to take and therefore they wouldn't be here. It would also make Britain a much stronger economy.
In reply to Blizzard: Can someone tell me what the other type of immigrant is if we are just discussing "foreign ones" in this thread?
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: No, not unless you can be bothered to read the thread to see how many times that's been brought up.
Only a hill - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Only a hill) You base your entire generalisation of a nation on a few blokes you met in a pub ....

Come off it, you know as well as I do that I'm not creating a 'generalisation of a nation'. I'm recounting my experiences of the people of that nationality I have personally known.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat) No, not unless you can be bothered to read the thread to see how many times that's been brought up.

It is almost 100 posts long and seems a lot of effort. Could I just get my friend Grzegorz to read it instead?
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Only a hill) You base your entire generalisation of a nation on a few blokes you met in a pub ....

He didn't. He based his opinion of the people he's met, upon his observations of the people he's met. Nowhere did he say "all Polish people are like this because I have met some Polish people and they were like this"
ads.ukclimbing.com
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill:

You posted whilst I was writing :-)
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: Depends, did you meet him in a pub?
muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill:

> Come off it, you know as well as I do that I'm not creating a 'generalisation of a nation'. I'm recounting my experiences of the people of that nationality I have personally known.

In a pub, in a tiny remote part of scotland.Not being a student of statistics but I think your subject group is too small... It's hardly like being in a canteen in a Gdansk shipyard like I was last year ;0)
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> Take it how you like, but it happens to be true. I am friends with several Polish people (from my time up in Scotland) and they stand out as being friendlier, more polite, and harder-working than most other people I have known.

I see you are wavering now on your original statement :) I find Poles pretty much like people from the rest of the world... some ffriendly, some grumpy. It is true the Poles here are hard working but that is obviously not a representative sample, and they are working under different incentives.
Only a hill - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:
In that case I bow down to your superior knowledge...

I really didn't come onto this thread to try and prove I know the true character of Polish people better than anyone else. My intention was merely to offer a personal anecdote in the hope it might help squash the bigoted nature of the OP...
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to alan1961: "Don't you realise employment is like survival"

UK welfare state allows survival without employment

" If a few more Brits grew up with the same attitude, they would be no jobs for the immigrants to take and therefore they wouldn't be here"

See my point above, it's difficult balance to get right.

In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat) Depends, did you meet him in a pub?

Does a Beefeater count?
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> a canteen in a Gdansk shipyard

Poland - population 38,415,284 (July 2012), labour force 17.92 million (2012 est.)

How many were in the canteen with you to suggest your sample size is representative of 18 million people?

Would this shipyard be in an urban environment? As urban population: 61% of total population (2010) otherwise you've only been exposed to 39% of the population so your view could be skewed too.

Would this shipyard be counted in the service sector?

agriculture: 3.5%
industry: 34.2%
services: 62.3% (2012 est.)

If not, then you've not been exposed to 60% of the workforce and so your view of polish people could be skewed.


David Martin - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
> [...]
>
> My prejudice is to support the UK economy,

Mmmm, so what happens when your British employee blows his cash on a foreign car, a foreign holiday, untold sick days and general bone idleness?

> Is my policy of using UK manufacturing and supply also racist?

Not necessarily, but as other have pointed out it is discriminatory and illegal. More for your own sake, I'd think again about just what the UK economy gains from it. I suspect it isn't doing as much good as you would like to think.

In one sense though I sympathise. Immigration is not the fault of the immigrants, nor even the govt's open door policy. It is our demand for rock-bottom price produce, which leads us to screw over our own agricultural producers, put horse meat in burgers, source as much as we can from China, and generally lead business owners to recruit the cheapest (i.e. foreign) staff they can get.

alan1961 - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús: It may be a difficult balancing act but when people are travelling thousands of miles from their home to work for a wage that our own people won't get out of bed for, it becomes obvious that the balance has swung to far in the wrong direction.

Just and idea, but maybe we should look at the welfare state in Poland and other Eastern European countries and learn from them.
muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: Of course I didnt meet anyone in the Taxi, Airport,Resteraunts, Shops, Hotel on the street or in the Climbing Wall I visited three times.
There were Women, Men and some of them were young and some were older too.

In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat) Of course I didnt meet anyone in the Taxi, Airport,Resteraunts, Shops, Hotel on the street or in the Climbing Wall I visited three times.
> There were Women, Men and some of them were young and some were older too.

That's a shame - it would have helped your demographic sample of the people.

Good that the climbing wall was empty - you could cherry pick your routes without having to queue.
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
This thread is a bloody disgrace. Send it back!
Tall Clare - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Which put me in mind of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Gn7TEEB-M
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:

As soon as I saw that you had replied with a YouTube clip, I was 80% certain that it was going to be that.... :-)
Tall Clare - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Tiresome and predictable are my middle names :-)
willriseley - on 14 Mar 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OqkMjx0XSI

Stop the influx of foreigners and employ British only. Put an end to sham marriages for them to get here 'legally' .

Buy British and British only, support your local shops and keep working for when the revolution starts.
Tall Clare - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:

A bold approach.

How do you feel about the wealth of international talent the UK employs in research, the financial sector, etc?

And when you say 'buy British and British only, support your local shops' does that mean you check the origin of all your food to make sure it's British?
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to willriseley)
>
> A bold approach.
>
> How do you feel about the wealth of international talent the UK employs in research, the financial sector, etc?
>
> And when you say 'buy British and British only, support your local shops' does that mean you check the origin of all your food to make sure it's British?


And the fertiliser, seed packaging, agricultural machinery, wellington boots, everything in the farmer's and employees' possession, the distribution vehicles, everything else sold in the same shop, your means of transport to that shop (including your shoes), every item in every hospital where everyone in the supply chain was born.... :-)
alan1961 - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare: Don't forget 'the financial sector' just requires a good imagination. It's not real money and doesn't have real value. It's just what people think or believe things are worth. So I think we could survive without that 'international talent'.

Give me somebody who adds real value anyday!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a foreign immigrant, the first guy didnt even speak any English.

There is an important question that nobody has asked (unless I missed it). Where are you? If I were in Hong Kong and served by a waiter from Malaysia who spoke Malaysian and Cantonese but no English, I don't think I'd have any grounds for complaint. Is that where you are?
krikoman - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler: He's in Ulan Bator
tony on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:
>
> Buy British and British only, support your local shops and keep working for when the revolution starts.

So, that's tea and coffee ruled out. And chocolate. Can't see that one working.
ThunderCat - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OqkMjx0XSI
>
> Stop the influx of foreigners and employ British only. Put an end to sham marriages for them to get here 'legally' .
>
> Buy British and British only, support your local shops and keep working for when the revolution starts.

You forgot "Send the buggers back and build a big massive wall around the entire coastline of the British Isles (using british bricks and british mortar) to keep out the tide of immigrant effluence"


IainRUK - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to alan1961:
> (
> Just and idea, but maybe we should look at the welfare state in Poland and other Eastern European countries and learn from them.

You do know Poland has a welfare state and you do get welfare if unemployed?

They come to work.. not to claim benefits..
redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: are we assuming all foreign workers in the UK are Polish?
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I think you should learn some lessons from this thread: expecting service in English in the uk is completely unreasonable; anyone from abroad is lovely; anyone from abroad is better qualified to work behind a bar than any of the 1.5 million claiming jsa; always make it clear that you're referring to the uk, otherwise people may get confused. I hope this helps.
GrahamD - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:

> Buy British and British only, support your local shops and keep working for when the revolution starts.

You are using an Amstrad computer to post this ? respect. You probably don't have any choice over the American or Chinese network routers but it was a good try.

Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to alan1961:
> (In reply to Tall Clare) Don't forget 'the financial sector' just requires a good imagination. It's not real money and doesn't have real value. It's just what people think or believe things are worth. So I think we could survive without that 'international talent'.

And the various taxes they pay (so I'm sure there's plenty of dodgy corporation tax shenanigans, but a decent whack of income tax, council tax, VAT, national insurance etc comes from financial sector workers) aren't real money either?
Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Blizzard) I think you should learn some lessons from this thread: expecting service in English in the uk is completely unreasonable; anyone from abroad is lovely; anyone from abroad is better qualified to work behind a bar than any of the 1.5 million claiming jsa; always make it clear that you're referring to the uk, otherwise people may get confused. I hope this helps.

I think that straw man's lacking a brain, Dorothy.
EeeByGum - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:

> Buy British and British only, support your local shops and keep working for when the revolution starts.

I couldn't agree more. Just out of curiosity, where does one buy a British made car, computer, vacuum cleaner, kitchen appliance, any form of home electrical product, clothes,... the list goes on.

Oh - and I am on a budget so can't afford the high end high quality stuff small premium producers do so well at in this country.
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: I take the same approach to my carbon footprint, I can't eliminate it entirely so I don't bother trying to be green at all.
Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:
Are we allowed to sell stuff abroad?
John Postlethwaite - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
"Foreign immigrants" as opposed to? What other sorts are there?

Just to be clear - were these 'foreign immigrants' actually people?

Presumably you are also a card carrying free market believer?

Mind you Britania would be much better if it was rid of the feckless poor and foreign scroungers.
jkarran - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

> Somehow, I dont think its my business to challenge the decisions business owners make. If I disagree with them, it isnt going to change anything.

Yet here you are days later ineffectually fulminating on the internet. Don't you ever get bored of beating this tired old drum?

If you feel you're out competed then do something to make yourself more competitive rather than bleating on about it.

jk
Enty - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to everyone:

It's no longer funny to keep taking the piss out of willriseley.
We know he's made an idiot of himself and we get your point. Back on topic please ;-)

E
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
>
> If you feel you're out competed then do something to make yourself more competitive rather than bleating on about it.
>

In many circumstance a good point, but applied universally and we have a race to the bottom when it comes to T & Cs for low paid jobs, no?

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to tony: Yorkshire tea ?

You telling me they don't grow that in Yorkshire?
jkarran - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:

> In many circumstance a good point, but applied universally and we have a race to the bottom when it comes to T & Cs for low paid jobs, no?

Or a race to the library, nightschool, Open University etc. There's more than one way to skin most cats.

jk
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jkarran: I said low paid jobs, they will always exist and we will always have people for whom more eductation is not the best answer.

You swerved my question.
ads.ukclimbing.com
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:
> (In reply to tony) Yorkshire tea ?
>
> You telling me they don't grow that in Yorkshire?

Don't be daft - it comes in bags.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013


What about domestic immigration? All these fifers and aberdonians cominng down here, taking our jobs, can't understand a bloody word...yada yada yada..

What an odious thread...so many small minded xenophobic and racist shitheads - op and others - you know who you are...
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013

> What an odious thread...so many small minded xenophobic and racist shitheads - op and others - you know who you are...

If you're going to start calling people names don't hide behind a non reply. I havn't seen anything on this thread that bad, care to give an example?
Enty - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
>
> [...]
>
> If you're going to start calling people names don't hide behind a non reply. I havn't seen anything on this thread that bad, care to give an example?

I was thinking that. You know what's as odious as an out and out racist? someone from the far opposite end of the spectrum.

E
Neil Williams - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

I think the language thing is a separate issue. I don't personally care all that much if someone working in an office, or sweeping the street, or driving a lorry from depot to depot, or whatever, speaks English or not. I do care if I can't communicate with public facing workers in the national language of my country.

The way to solve this is not to patronise establishments which do not employ staff who speak sufficient English to do their job, where possible. Then they will get the message.

Of course, those who have to use public transport don't get to choose bus and taxi drivers who don't speak English - that I really do find unacceptable. A bus driver needs to speak sufficient English to be able to assist passengers, for instance, in the event of disruption or them just wanting to know where the stop is for going back.

That is totally independent of their country of origin. The same would apply to, say, someone from rural Wales who only spoke Welsh but wished to take such a job in England.

Neil
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
>
> [...]
>
> If you're going to start calling people names
That's what you took from my post? By the way which name offended the most?

>don't hide behind a non reply.

i don't really think I was hiding - I thougt I'd made my opinion pretty clear

I havn't seen anything on this thread that bad, care to give an example?
> I think the onus would be for you to convince me I'm wrong and have over- reacted. Considering we've been reading the same thread what I've considered odius you clearly haven't and you have stated as much.

Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
> That's what you took from my post? By the way which name offended the most?
>

Neither offended me but 'small minded xenophobic and racist shitheads' are clearly name calling.

> i don't really think I was hiding - I thougt I'd made my opinion pretty clear

No, it was a vague spray.

> I think the onus would be for you to convince me I'm wrong and have over- reacted. Considering we've been reading the same thread what I've considered odius you clearly haven't and you have stated as much

You started calling people 'shitheads', so I think the onus is on you. I haven't read everypost, but the general jist doesn't seem too bad to me, point me to an obvious example I may have missed and we have something to discuss.

Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to PeterM)

> You started calling people 'shitheads', so I think the onus is on you. I haven't read everypost, but the general jist doesn't seem too bad to me, point me to an obvious example I may have missed and we have something to discuss.

I'd say that the guy posting the BNP video was definitely a shithead.

The guy who doesn't give job interviews to non-British applicants is behaving in a racist manner, whether he thinks he's a racist or not.
jkarran - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:

Swerved unintentionally.

Minimum wage + H&S legislation is a partial limiter on how poor conditions can be for low paid workers. Unionisation is another. Granted, it's clearly not ideal but it's a start. Our 'race to the bottom' long since got moved out of sight and mind to China, Bangladesh, India ect.

I'm not sure how limiting the availability of migrant labor could be considered a better solution?

Nor do I believe there are working age/ability people that cannot in some way benefit from education.

jk
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:

From Wiki:"Xenophobia is a dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange."

and from 'the free dictionary':
"Racism:1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race."

If you cannot find anything in this thread that fits the above then I would suggest we have very different views on things and will probably not agree on much. The very first post, in my opinion, fits both racist and xenophobic, but of course I used the word 'shithead' and that is obviously way more serious...
Chateauneuf du Boeuf - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill: Whenever I've seen your posts which is admittedly rarely, they always set up some weird options between going back to the c19th and what you think is the correct course of action. Assigning personalities to nations in a sort of patronising superior sort of way is I'd say quite a c19th thing to do.

The problem with the terms of debate on immigration is that its either those dirty foreigners taking our jobs or those feckless white underclass losing their jobs because they are lazy. Fewer people seem keen on looking at the levels of globalisation and labour regulations which cause the problems associated with immigration. There should be a lot less room given to identity politics in this debate than currently given.
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> Swerved unintentionally.
>
> Minimum wage + H&S legislation is a partial limiter on how poor conditions can be for low paid workers. Unionisation is another. Granted, it's clearly not ideal but it's a start.

There can be pressure to work 'unpaid hours' and who's going to report poor T & C when they really want the job?

>
> I'm not sure how limiting the availability of migrant labor could be considered a better solution?
>

We already do, it is an obvious necessity.

Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: I'll take that as a 'No', but nevermind someone else saved you the trouble.
Chateauneuf du Boeuf - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: I'm not sure I'd agree that the first post is either racist or xenophobic. It could easily be the sort of thing someone with is racist/xenophobic POV would say, but there is nothing in their that fits the above two definitions. Its nationalist (sort of), and anti-globalisation, but it discriminates no races and has no explicit dislike of people from foreign countries.
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I'd say that the guy posting the BNP video was definitely a shithead.

Thanks I didn't see that. Why couldn't Peter reply to him? I wouldn't lump Willersley in with the OP.

> The guy who doesn't give job interviews to non-British applicants is behaving in a racist manner, whether he thinks he's a racist or not.

I disagree. Was Gordon Brown's 'British jobs for British workers' racist? I accept it could get him in trouble though.

I do think the frequency with which these terms are banded about have diluted the words.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

You can't see that here?"It really is about time immigration was stopped and we started giving our own people more opportunities." Seems pretty xenophobic to me. It's a "dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange" The original post, to me at least, expresses a dislike for foreigners having jobs which the OP thinks should be filled by brits.
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: There are 1.5 million claiming jsa, do you really think it's racist to consider that some of them could be usefully employed rather than having to import labour?
Chateauneuf du Boeuf - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: The OP could (and I've not read all subsequent posts) could simply think that there are too many people for the available jobs and think that further limiting/stopping immigration is the right way to correct this. I don't feel the need to stretch these terms to accommodate the OPs opinion, there is still plenty of xenophobia and racism around, sticking strictly to the definition.
geordiepie - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Haven't read the full thread but your initial post strikes me as massively intolerant and I sincerely hope you get attacked by a fox.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:

We're not 'importing' labour. I'm sure that all those 1.5 million are not all brits or foreign nationals. I would consider racist stripping someone of their job just because they are not british.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Mikkel - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Some on this thread would have it that the "foreign immigrants" live under a blanket

Blankets???? no one told me i would be given blankets when i moved here.
Where do i sign up for them?

muppetfilter - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: I wonder how you would feel after seeing the far side of immigrant labour in Saudi or Bahrain. The labour force works away from home in large camps and safety is laughable, the Asry yard I worked in Bahrain had roughly 5 fatalities a month and it wasn't considered an issue.
Just look at the scandalous pay and conditions in the Maritime sector even in UK waters.
jkarran - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:

> There can be pressure to work 'unpaid hours' and who's going to report poor T & C when they really want the job?

There's plenty of that at all points on the pay scale, at the lowest end it's illegal.

> We already do, it is an obvious necessity.

I'm not looking for an argument. Perhaps I should have said 'further restriction' (or perhaps not since I think the existing restrictions are more than adequate).

jk
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to muppetfilter:

I'm not sure I see the relevence to my post(s) regarding xenophobia or racism. I think the thead is referring to EU nationals that can come here to work on an equal footing.
Ridge - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123:
> (In reply to Only a hill) totaly agree. i have worked with loads of poles, slovaks, czechs, hungarians, romanians. i would rather work with them than with english folk. they are much more intelligent and harder working. they know a tremendous amount about the history of their countries, and other countries and are really interesting to talk to. my boyfriend is actually from slovakia.

By way of balance, this week I've been treated to: Black people are monkeys, Jews are dogs and same sex relationships are apparently the same as marrying a horse. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary the people offering these pearls of wisdom must have been 'english folk' cunningly disguised as Poles.

Alternatively, the truth is you get knobheads all over the world, and sweeping generalisations tend not to add much to the debate.
Mike Stretford - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> [...]
>
> There's plenty of that at all points on the pay scale,

But the impact is much greater when you're only on £6.50 an hour. I think the pressure on the lower end of the employment market is being ignored by many. Not trying to pick an argument....I know you're a reasonable poster so I replied to your post to make my point!

redsonja - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon: £6.50 is good pay here. £6.19 is more usual
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: Nobody, apart from you, has suggested stripping them of their jobs. And of course they're an import, workers are a commodity and we import them much as we import other commodities that are of too poor a quality or too expensive to produce here.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
I do apologise. I inferred it from what you'd written - how else would the 1.5M come off JSA and get jobs, considering the context of the thread? We certainly do not import EU nationals - they immigrate.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM:

Dammit - They emigrate. Work is getting in the way...
ruffydd - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> The way to solve this is not to patronise establishments which do not employ staff who speak sufficient English to do their job, where possible. Then they will get the message.

In the same way, in Wales, there is a history of giving monoglot English speakers the same "message". Some people claim it is small minded.

> That is totally independent of their country of origin. The same would apply to, say, someone from rural Wales who only spoke Welsh but wished to take such a job in England.
>

And presumably you'd support the same principal being applied in Wales ? Or in Scotland ? No jobs for monoglot English speakers ?

Or is there a special rule for your language ?
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM:
> (In reply to Sir Chasm)
> I do apologise. I inferred it from what you'd written - how else would the 1.5M come off JSA and get jobs, considering the context of the thread? We certainly do not import EU nationals - they immigrate.

We look at what our jobseekers are lacking that means lots of lower paid, lower skilled jobs are being done by workers we import. We look at the jobs that are being performed by the people we import and see if there is a common factor that means our indigenous potential workforce is unable to do the job. The idea that it's all or nothing and all immigration needs to stop immediately is yours.
PeterM - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to PeterM)
> [...]
>
> The idea that it's all or nothing and all immigration needs to stop immediately is yours.

Eh? I'm categorically against stopping immigration. Where did you get that from?
tlm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

I thought I had clicked on a Daily Mail link there by accident and wondered why my kittens and tea wasn't working.

No wonder you feel down.
Neil Williams - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to ruffydd:

Depends where in Wales. If you're talking about somewhere where Welsh is the usually spoken language, yes. All cusstomer facing staff should be able to speak, fluently, the main official language their customers are going to need to interact in.

Neil
Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
Agreed, up to a point - if your job revolves around communicating with people then anything that makes you better able to do that is clearly a relevant skill. It may not be a necessity but it's certainly desireable, and I also wouldn't blame customers for favouring a business where they can communicate more easily with the people working there.
Neil Williams - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I think my view is stronger than that. I should not have to use gestures to get a sandwich order across in England.

Same of any other country. In France, a sandwich order should be able to be completed in French. And so on. Additional languages are good, but not at the expense of the national one.

Neil
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to PeterM: We're all agreed then, nobody is calling for all immigration to be stopped, can't imagine who brought that up. But as we have a large pool of unemployed perhaps we should look at how to employ them before mass imports of workers.
Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
I pretty much agree, but I don't really see why it should be a legal requirement, any more than employing staff who are capable of making a sandwich competently should be a legal requirement - it should pretty much enforce itself, given that most people would rather go to a cafe where they can ask for their sandwich than one where they have to mime for it.

Although tbh, I've lived in some fairly multicultural areas and while it's not that unusual to go to shops, pubs, cafes etc where the staff clearly aren't native English speakers, I don't think I've ever actually not been able to communicate verbally at all.

The Welsh case is a bit more subtle again because AIUI there are very few monoglot Welsh speakers around, but I think a shop would be reasonable to say "our customers prefer to speak Welsh, so we want a Welsh speaker on the till".
Ramblin dave - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to PeterM) We're all agreed then, nobody is calling for all immigration to be stopped, can't imagine who brought that up.

Possibly the first post?

"It really is about time immigration was stopped"
ads.ukclimbing.com
Al Evans on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to Al Evans)

>
> Er... why? Cheap labour to fulfil excessive money-driven demand, surely? Is it different to the Brits heading over to Germany in the 80s, etc?

I think I may have not given the impression I meant to. The construction boom itself was a disaster waiting to happen, not at that time bringing in immigrants to sustain it. It was the fault of the corrupt practices of local councils and the Spanish Government for not controlling it properly. So that now we have many thousands of unoccupied properties that will never be sold, many on areas where building was forbidden by national laws and that have no water or elctricity supply to them or ever will have.
It is the construction companies that made millionaires out of the owners blatantly breaking the rules that attracted the immigrants fron eastern europe because they were offering work (on low wages).
The current government is trying to rectify it but mostly that means pulling down the illegal properties, some owners of which have put their life savings into buying. Perhaps the eastern europeans can get jobs on the demolition crews.
GrahamD - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> But as we have a large pool of unemployed perhaps we should look at how to employ them before mass imports of workers.

How do "we" do that ? presumably the jobs are there to be taken - do "we" frogmarch people in for interviews where (presumably) their superior communication skills over migrant workers will ensure they get the job ?

Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to GrahamD: Oh forget it, as long as I'm not unemployed that's ok, it's not like it costs anything.
Sir Chasm - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave: But not stripping them of their jobs, I think you missed a straw man, Dorothy.
Moggsy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: iv got no issue paying more for service mate. If you thin the minimum wage is high, you obviously don't need to live on it!

Supply and demand, yes if the economic migrants (not immigrants) left these jobs then yes the wages would rise, as would price, no issue with that. We have a service industry not a primary manufacturing one now, and that costs money
Troy Tempest - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this thread as soon as I saw it. I guess I'll learn self control one day.

Anybody else been on the receiving end of the clampdown on migration over the past couple of years? Last December I lost my (Sri Lankan) girlfriend to the new regulations despite:

An undergrad degree and a Master's from Scottish Universities.
Eight years of living in the UK on a Student and then a Fresh Talent Visa (the latter no longer exists).
English being her first language
Working (and paying tax etc) for a children's charity in a severely deprived area of Glasgow.

So for everyone calling for tighter controls on immigration, do a little research and I think you'll find your calls have been answered.
Enty - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Mighty Max:

Horrible mate! It sounds outrageous to me and highlights why the immigration system is a crock of shit.

E
Troy Tempest - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Enty: Yep. And don't anybody think her employer could have just signed a form to get her a new visa. They would have had to get a 'consultant' in to 'assess suitability' to be a visa sponsor (costing around 3k-can a charity afford that, er, no). Then even if they could sponsor her, her job would have to be advertised in the Job Centre for 28 days, and she would only be able to keep her job if nobody applied for it! Like that would happen!

And please for the love of God nobody tell me I should have married her (sick of hearing that one) , that brings a whoooole load of visa issues in itself.
J Brown - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to heidi123:
> (In reply to Blizzard) second time in 2 weeks? you should live in the lakes!

Or the 19th Century?!
flopsicle - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard: if immigrants all pushed off home there'd be countless olds with no-one to give them a wash swathes of veg rotting in the fields!

I think wishing immigration away is a bit 'king Canute' like. Travel and the internet are changing boundaries, I like the mix.
Blizzard - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to flopsicle:

OMG. What did I start? My seemingly innocent comments were not meant to open up a tin of worms like this. I will try and refrain from posting my thoughts on here.
andy - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to flopsicle)
>
> OMG. What did I start? My seemingly innocent comments were not meant to open up a tin of worms like this. I will try and refrain from posting my thoughts on here.

No, of course not. You were hoping for lots of supportive posts agreeing that all these foreigners should bugger off back where they came from.

Unlucky...
Blue Straggler - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
>
> I will try and refrain from posting my thoughts on here.

Try harder. I thought you were gone.

stroppygob - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Chris Shorter:
> (In reply to Dax H)
> [...]
>
> Your employmnet policy is actually illegal in the UK now as the definition of race discrimination has recently been extended to include nationality:
>
> "Race discrimination occurs when a person is treated less favourably because of race, colour, and nationality, ethnic or national origin."
>
> http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1849

I love it when that is pointed out to a British person who wants to employ Brits, but this goes unremarked;


> There is a fabric recycling centre near me, it was started by a polish chap, and he employes only polish, and even the driver that comes to pick up the fabric comes from Poland and the fabric is transported to Poland to get processed.

> Why, because no local people want to do the work and sort it at a price that makes it viable. I'm not saying that the local people are lazy, (but the owner did)



stroppygob - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> Take it how you like, but it happens to be true. I am friends with several Polish people (from my time up in Scotland) and they stand out as being friendlier, more polite, and harder-working than most other people I have known.

Gasp, you met some people who had travelled abroad to find work, in an industry which by its very nature requires them to be hard working, polite and friendly, and guess what? They turned out to be hard-working polite friendly people!!

Gasp, you could knock me down with a feather, whatever next? Next you'll be telling me that the bloke chosen by some old catholic geezers to be the next pope turns out he's and old Catholic geezer himself.

Now I know how to base my understanding of people from other countries!
stroppygob - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Blizzard)

>
> The way to solve this is not to patronise establishments which do not employ staff who speak sufficient English to do their job, where possible. Then they will get the message.

The NHS?
Neil Williams - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I don't think it should be a legal requirement for shops etc, as I can choose a different shop. I do think it should be a legal requirement for all Government services and for public transport, as there is usually no choice of provider. The Driver CPC scheme would be a good method of enforcement of it for bus drivers.

Neil
I like climbing - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Mighty Max:
Really sorry to hear this - I've been through some of this shit too but not in the last couple of years and I know it's got worse......
OneLifeOneHeart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
Because languages evolve. What's English today isn't the same as it was 500 years ago - and won't be anymore 500 years from now :)
alan1961 - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to IainRUK: I know they come here to work.
ads.ukclimbing.com
tlm - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Mighty Max:

> Anybody else been on the receiving end of the clampdown on migration over the past couple of years?

Yes. I've seen international students being treated like criminals, even though they are paying a fortune to be here (11 - 15K). I've seen students deported because of inefficient administrative systems. I've seen a friend and his wife unable to go on holiday abroad as their passports were held for 2 years (He is British, she was from Czech).

My mum was a foreigner. But no one minds me as I have a British accent, am white and hold a UK passport.

No one moans about all those ex Brits in Australia, America, Spain or South Africa... Do you think they all ought to have to come back to the UK?
Ramblin dave - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
I'd be interested to know: would people who are concerned about Polish people (say) coming to Britain and taking jobs away from the British would think twice about moving from England to Scotland (or vice-versa) for a job if they were unemployed?
island_explorer on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to alan1961:
>
> Just and idea, but maybe we should look at the welfare state in Poland and other Eastern European countries and learn from them.

The only thing we can learn from the welfare state in Poland is that there is none, which is exactly why there are so many Polish workers in the UK. Wouldn't take any lessons from the Polish government if I were you.

I to some extent agree with the idea of supporting (not enforcing) a country's own workforce but allowing for some free skill transfer between countries. If my government favoured its own people (I'm Polish, btw), there wouldn't be so many of us here. Trust me, most of them don't want to (myself not included - I'm a completely different case).
Mike Stretford - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
> I'd be interested to know: would people who are concerned about Polish people (say) coming to Britain and taking jobs away from the British would think twice about moving from England to Scotland (or vice-versa) for a job if they were unemployed?

Why should they? That is migration within a sovereign state. If England or Scotland were soveriegn states they could adjust their migration policies as they saw fit (obviously they'd have to leave the EU to have much flexibility on this though).
Neil Williams - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to island_explorer:

"The only thing we can learn from the welfare state in Poland is that there is none, which is exactly why there are so many Polish workers in the UK."

I don't think that's the reason. I think it's because even the minimum wage in the UK was, at the height of the immigration flow into the UK, far better than such workers would get at home, so they would come to the UK and earn the money to send it home to their families.

Neil
Ramblin dave - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> Why should they? That is migration within a sovereign state.

Why does that make a difference to the unemployed Scottish people who see "their" jobs being taken by people from south of the border?
paul-1970 - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
Changed some of the words in the OP's question in order to highlight the ridiculous, narrow-minded parochialisms if the consistency of his argument is applied:

> Its the second time in two weeks I have been served in a pub by a person from another town, the first guy didnt even speak with a local accent. Surely we have enough young locals who would love to have these jobs, why are they going to folk from nearly ten miles down the road? It really is about time incomers stayed within five steps of where they were born and we started giving only our own inbreeds more opportunities.

John Rushby - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to willriseley:

>
> Stop the influx of foreigners and employ British only.
>
> Buy British and British only,

we tried that, this was the best we came up with...


http://www.pembrokeshireclassicinvestments.co.uk/uploaded/images/allegro.jpg


I think you'd find a protectionist economic policy would self defeating as our export markets dried up. As Mr Tata will tell you........
Neil Williams - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to paul-1970:

I think that's quite childish; I separate the issue of "not able to speak understandable English" from origin, and as I've said upthread I do object to being "served" by people who cannot speak English in England.

Accents are a totally different issue, because you can still be understood when speaking in them, be they Scouse, Manc, Essex, Polish, Indian or whatever. If, however, the accent is so thick (or dialect) that you can't be understood by most people in the place you're working, e.g. someone with a very strong Glaswegian dialect working in London, or someone speaking only in Cockney rhyming slang in Glasgow, the same thing applies.

Neil
paul-1970 - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
I was replying to the parochialism I perceived by the OP. Hence, I replied to his post - not yours.
tlm - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> Why does that make a difference to the unemployed Scottish people who see "their" jobs being taken by people from south of the border?

or indeed, to people in the South of England, who see their local culture "diluted", their house prices "pushed up" and lots of "grumpy" people who clearly wish they weren't their flooding their streets as "their" jobs are taken by people from over the whole country?

(I personally like the mix of people, but if we are going to moan about influxes, then there are more people rushing into the SE than rushing up to Scotland to "steal" jobs.)

Neil Williams - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to paul-1970:

Fair point, sorry.

Neil
Ramblin dave - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to tlm:
Yes, agree. Same point.
Mike Stretford - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> Why does that make a difference to the unemployed Scottish people who see "their" jobs being taken by people from south of the border?

You're asking me what the difference is betweena soverign state and different regions within one are? Well, in the context of this discussion the economic differences between regions are small compared to those between soveriegn states. Sovereign states can impose whatever restrictions they like, regions can't. If Scots want that power they will soon get the oppurtunity.
Mike Stretford - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)


> (I personally like the mix of people, but if we are going to moan about influxes, then there are more people rushing into the SE than rushing up to Scotland to "steal" jobs.)

I like a mix of people too, including people from all over the world. However I don't think we should let our personal feelings in this regard blind us to the fact that there are negative consequences of international economic migrancy to some people already living here. I don't think it's very sincere to reject their concerns as xenophobic, as some on this thread have.
Enty - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
>
> [...]
>
> I like a mix of people too, including people from all over the world. However I don't think we should let our personal feelings in this regard blind us to the fact that there are negative consequences of international economic migrancy to some people already living here. I don't think it's very sincere to reject their concerns as xenophobic, as some on this thread have.

That's a brilliant post Papillon.
It's a shame people can't voice their concerns about this subject without the usual suspects calling them xenophobic or racist. And, like I said higher up, you wouldn't need to put that awful phrase "I'm not racist but" in front of what you're about to say.

E
Gudrun - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to tlm)
> I like a mix of people too, including people from all over the world. However I don't think we should let our personal feelings in this regard blind us to the fact that there are negative consequences of international economic migrancy to some people already living here. I don't think it's very sincere to reject their concerns as xenophobic, as some on this thread have.

Yeah but it can lead certain idiots to want to do something about bloody foriegners can't it?
And the same concerns should be listened to all over Europe and the rest of the world when bloody British foriegners pinch all their jobs...yeah?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.