/ Recovery tips for sore muscles when training

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alexstudly - on 15 Apr 2013
Ok well i thought i would start something on this topic as i cant seem to find anything on it.

Recently I've started to feel sore after sessions of about 3 hrs of training, now i know its good to feel a little sore as this means that things are getting a good work out.

But my question is, what can i eat after training to help with muscle soreness and recovery.

Protein? Banana? Carbs? Some of those recovery drinks?

Not sure anybody with some tips or advice would be super.

Alex
shark - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

A mix of protein and carbs is recommended so milk or a boiled egg and a jam sandwich will do. It is important to eat within 20 minutes of finishing training as the body doesn't store protein well and there is a window after training where protein is absorbed well. If you are keen to promote recovery then showering your forearms with cold water can help or go the whole hog and have an ice bath. Stretching is a waste of time. Probably. Warming down at the end of a session might help. Similarly active rest is an option worth experimenting with where you do some very light climbing on what would otherwise be a rest day.
alexstudly - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to shark:
Ah ok, so as soon as I've finished i should have some separate food ready like a banana an egg and a glass of milk?
Does this actually work?

I do things like have a hot bath then a cold shower, which is unreal! So shocking but i'm hoping it helps.

I do do a regeneration day two days after climbing, but its only light and just to help stimulate my muscles but not pushing it
JezH on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: Protein is for repair, carbs are for recovery. Get some of both after strenuous exercise. Protein repairs the damaged muscle. Carbohydrates replace the energy stored in your cells. A good sized ham sandwich will be enough for your post exercise meal.

Unless your training like an athlete supplement drinks are unnecessary (and expensive).Try and maintain a good protein intake (20-30g a meal) until your soreness is gone, but worry less about carbs (still have some) after that initial recovery meal.
xplorer on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

You want to be eating around 150g of proteins a day if training hard.

Plenty of omega 3, salmon is the best.

Tuna, chicken, protein shakes, nuts, etc

Proteins are the building blocks of any training routine. Carbs are what keep you going, although again proteins can convert into energy.

Saunas, steam rooms, aromatherapy and jacuzzis defiantly help after a hard training session
Siderunner - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

What he said. From a personal perspective, the following are what I actually do:

Warming down with 1 or 2 easy routes or traverses helps a fair bit. It's not a waste of time as you can work on technique exercises like silent feet or techy things like twisting/flagging.

I recently started to have a protein shake with milk and a banana as soon as I get home and I reckon this does help sequential days of training; probably real food would be better but I'm busy and lazy and want to get it in ASAP.
xplorer on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:



Your diet accounts to 70% of your training
Siderunner - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:

Recommended protein intakes usually quoted as Grammes per kg body weight. 2g per kg is the upper level usually quoted for weight lifters, and for a 65kg climber (eg me!) your suggestion is even above that ...
Siderunner - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Siderunner:
> What he said.

By "he" I meant shark

alexstudly - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Siderunner: yes my last session i seemed to recover much better than the last few and i don't know why? I did a little warm down and ate a banana afterward on the advice of my climbing partner, and today i feel good, hence why im trying to figure this whole recovery foods thing.
alexstudly - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Siderunner: ok so i weigh 82kg and trying to loose more weight by running so i guess i need to eat more protein per day.
xplorer on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Siderunner:

As long as you stick to a well balanced diet, drinking plenty of water, the extra protein will do you no harm.

No body should be having continuos pain from consistent training.

If your getting pain on the odd training day you do, then just deal with it
xplorer on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

A friend of mine recently lost 1.5 stone in under four weeks.

Eating nothing but, chicken, fish, and broccoli and the odd diet whey protein shake
alexstudly - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer: wow don't think i have that much weight to loose, I'm not fat just big boned.

So a good routine to have after climbing is:

1. Eat some chicken
2. Eat a banana
3. Some bread?
4. Jam?
biscuit - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

Choc milk shake is all you need. Sugars, protein and fluid all in one.

Essentially get some protein and carbs into your body asap. There is a 40(ish) minute window where your body uses them much more effectively than later.

Doing technique drills when you are knackered teaches you to climb like you are knackered. NOt recommended unless you're not really knackered.

2g protein per kg body weight is good for a bodybuilder not so good for a climber. Yes we use lats, biceps, shoulders etc. but the most taxed of all our muscles are our forearms. They are not exactly the size of a bodybuilders legs that need repairing after a strenuous legs session. Nor do we work at that level 4-5 times a week - normally.

It won't do you any harm to consume excess protein within reason but it probably won't help either,and shakes etc are expensive.

Tuna pasta can fit in a tub and be easy to access after climbing.

And yes you can 'hurt' and train on consecutive days. Not hurt in a bad way of course, just normal muscle fatigue.

But who to believe on an internet forum ?

Have a look at the blogs of climbers who know their stuff like Dave Macleod, get some decent sprots nutrition literature etc. and make an informed decision.
ice.solo - on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

id take 2 tacts: reduce training by 30mins and increase nutrition factors, at least till you sort the problem out. it may simply be you are not ready yet for 3hr sessions, or over-training.

not sure how many such sessions a week youre doing, but 3hrs is quite a bit at once and will need significant dietry support (the 70% number given id go with).
the usual stuff: good amounts of fluids (water/electrolytes), quality protein and carbohydrates, oils/fats etc.

probably too you will need extensive rest - quality stuff deep in the parasympathetic zone. rest needs training too, as does recovery - they are 2 different things and separating them i think is key to proper development.
martinph78 on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: As well as post-exercise nutrition take a look at your pre and during exercise nutrition. It'll help with performance and recovery. A few bullet points from me, I can provide references if you are really bothered, just not tonight!

1) Low energy or low carbs (CHO) intake increases amino acid oxidation and total protein requirements. Basically carbs before exercise is a good thing. Also maintaining carbs during exercise is good.

2) Additional protein over the guideline adequate requirement of ~0.8-0.9g/kg/day is not suggested for adults participating in resistance or endurance exercise. Saying that, see point 1. This is why many athletes work at around 1.2-1.4g/kg/day. Aim for the guideline amount, and boost it after exercise in a recovery drink or meal.

3) increases in muscular strength and mass are greatest when protein is consumed immediately after, or within 1hr, of exercise

4)combining protein with CHO immediately after exercise provides the greatest increase in the restoration of muscle glycogen and protein synthesis. 2:1 Carbs:protein is a good mix.

5) recovery is an aerobic process, so aerobic fitness is important. A gentle jog after training would help with your cool-down. 10mins would be help flush toxins from your muscles. Maybe add some aerobic exercises to your days off (20-30min jogs on an evening).

6) rest is important, good sleep and at least 1 proper rest day per week.

7) maintain good hydration. Electrolytes and such shouldn't be needed if you are eating foods containing salts. For sessions lasting over 1 hour drink 600ml/hour during exercise (or replace that equivilant during and after).

Not sure about stretching for recovery, I know it aids flexibility but not convinced about the benefits for recovery yet.

I find magnesium, zinc and fish oil before bed aids muscle relaxation and sleep. Speaking of sleep...that's all I've got tonight!


SteveP40 - on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: Bananas - I swear by them! Make a milkshake with 3 bananas, a scoop of honey and a load of flak seeds - can't go wrong! :)
dek - on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to SteveP40:
> (In reply to alexstudly) Bananas - I swear by them! Make a milkshake with 3 bananas, a scoop of honey and a load of flak seeds - can't go wrong! :)

Great advice ! I have similar after a session, and a little walk around to loosen up.
shark - on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to alexstudly)
>

I think you can overdo the protein bit - climbers aren't (or shouldnt be) bodybuilders.

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Nutrition_for_Bouldering_169.html

"Protein intake is not directly related to power and there is nothing to be gained by eating more protein than your body requires. One pound of muscle contains only about 100 grams of protein - muscle is composed of more than 72% water - so you do not need much extra protein to enlarge your muscles. Consuming excess protein is not necessarily harmful, but most will be excreted or converted to fat. High-protein diets can also induce water loss and thus contribute to dehydration. Do not be tempted to overload with protein - you will only end up lacking other nutrients, such as carbohydrate"

This article also by Heather Clark gives good guidance I think

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Weight_Management_for_Climbers_168.html
Terry James Walker - on 16 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:
Was told this by a highly respected sports nutritionist:

1. Take on Carbs/Proteins continiously and stay well hydrated. (a set time after training has no real meaning when you're varying the training time itself, and intensity intervals in that sesh)

2. Warm down - keep blood flowing for like 20 mins, without producing any lactic acid at all (heart rate below lactate threshold, probs 130 ish). To ensure no more lactic is built in your arms, you can do this by cycling home or running.

3. Recovery exercise the next day, same as above with heart rate. again to flush out lactic acids. Stretching will help maintain muscle length/shape/rebuild etc, but won't help recovery or feeling of DOMS
alexstudly - on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to shark:

Wow some really detailed answers i didnt realise there was that much to it all, seem i need to brush up on some of these areas!
The protein facts are interesting me very much.

So in the real world, after a session:
1 cool down
2 Eat some protein and carbs
3 Eat some bananas and jam
4 drink some milk
5 keep hydrated
6 Have a bath
7 Stetching
8 sleep well

Am i right?
alexstudly - on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to ice.solo:

A the moment i am doing

Mon: run 30 min jog
tue: gental bouldering 1hr i call it a regeteration session prob 30% effort
wed: run 30 min jog
Thurs: boulder 2 hrs train power and power endurance,
Fri: rest
sat: rest
Sun: main day climbing 100% pull everything together all sport climbing
And repeat....

And then every 4 weeks i have one week off rest and then start the 4 week cycle again....

Alex
pork pie girl - on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to biscuit: my problem is that i always (well 9 out of 10 times) do a hard cardio workout straight after a hard climbing workout, i'd throw up on my bike if i had a milkshake within a couple of hours of going out on my bike, or some tuna or something, i tend to have a banana or a bit of flapjack to fuel myself round a ride (sometimes - usually when i'm red pointing I hardly eat anything when i rock climb so i'm quite hungry at the end of the session)

so, how do i tke advantage of that 40 min window to get protein in for my arms after climbing without feeling sick for my ride?

(i don't have the time to sit around digesting food between climbing and biking you see)

i find my arms feel very tired sometimes when i'm out of the saddle on hill climbs on my bike... i always ride out of the saddle up hills as refuse to knock down the gears.. my arms are often well tired from climbing.. my legs are usually fine.. so maybe the window of opportuntiy for protein intake for my arms is there after a ride because of this??

i very rarely get muscle soreness after climbing.. no matter how hard i've pushed myself, i usually just getting achey hands and fingers.. maybe recovery isn't an issue?

i was going to start having a choc milkshake (semi skimmed) or just a pint of semi skimmed milk after i've finished my climbing and riding.
martinph78 on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to pork pie girl: You don't need to. Just make sure you fuel up on carbs before and during your climbing/biking to give you the energy during the exercise. Then have your protein/carbs after your ride.

If you are training hard and wanting specific gains then it's worth looking at in more detail as it makes a big difference to performance, not just for the one session but over the weeks/months.

If you only train a few days a week then just stick to a healthy balanced diet everyday as there's no need to rush the recovery process.



JezH on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: If your doing part 2 you can skip 3 because that's more like energy food that you'd have before a session.
JezH on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: This is just about the most recommended book on nutrition:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sports-Nutrition-From-Lab-Kitchen/dp/184126296X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1...
It's from a very well respected researcher/author.
If you don't like reading too much, most of the important parts are summarized at the end of each section.
alexstudly - on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

I was wondering if so much protein is needed and like you say there is in the real world how much chicken is needed?

If a chicken brest is 100g its not all made of protien is it? Its only going to have so huch in it.
So how much is in the average breast?
xplorer on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

Around 40%
biscuit - on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to pork pie girl:

Yes but you're not normal :-p

A triathlete doing a brick training session doesn't get off their bike and think where can they get some protein in. They get some carbs in and recover after the run.

If it's so close in time it's all part of the same session really. Carb up in a way that won't make you puke and recover later - if you ever recover with the amount you do.
martinph78 on 17 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: 100g of chicken breast has around 22g of protein in it. It will depend on the quality of the chicken, so could be a bit higher.

A typical breast is about 160-180g I think, so about 35-40g of protein.

The reason the figures for protein are so high (i.e. 2g/kg/d or even higher) is mostly due to the supplement companies trying to sell more protein!

If you are doing regular moderate exercise for health and fitness, with enough rest between sessions, then the timing of the protein isn't critical either. Just spread it out over your day if that suits.



ice.solo - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:

ah ok. i had visions off multiple 3hr sessions a week.

at that lot then yeah, i wonder if its nutrition and hydration.

could be too your schedule isnt supportive enough. try a 9 or 10 day schedule that has a different curve to it (ie another gentle day after the power sessions, and maybe one before the hard full day).
id up the jogging to about 45mins too, as thats often about where the body slips into enduro zone - you may not being swinging into it far enough to really reap the cardio benefits (as wisely stated, recovery is a cardio matter).

and yeah - eat. a simple tin of tuna after a training session takes care of most protein needs.
Laurent Moseley - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly: training hard hurts! eat lots, eat well. But most of all. LISTEN to your body, if your to sore to train don't; if you feel good but you don't normally train on a Tuesday train!

Stretch often, warm up and cool down.
machine - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to alexstudly:
As already stated in this thread a good warm up and cool down will help massively.If you push your limits it will hurt afterwards there's no getting away from that. A good balanced diet is all you need. I wouldn't waste to much money on expensive supplements (unless your going pro), cut out the crap from your diet and that will help performance but that's obvious. I take vitamin C which is good for helping your body repair, I also take glucosamine + chondroitin and cod liver oil, to help my joints, these are all relatively cheep to buy. A cold bath will help aching muscles, and joints. Rest is also very important to allow your body to repair.
machine - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to machine:
oh and I forgot to mention celery. It taste minging but it contains electrolyte and a natural anti inflammatory.
nw - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to machine:
Sounds like Men's Health nonsense to me.
machine - on 21 Apr 2013
In reply to nw:

Well each to their own I suppose, what works for one wont necessarily work for another. But there's a lot of gimmicks and sales mans spin out there all designed to make your wallet a whole lot lighter. I wonder if the likes of Joe brown and Don Whillans took supplements.
seankenny - on 22 Apr 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
>rest needs training too, as does recovery - they are 2 different things and separating them i think is key to proper development.

Could you expand on this please?
Siderunner - on 22 Apr 2013
In reply to seankenny:

Obviously the secret to SteveMac's success, practising how to rest. He's always going on about eating cake, and there was I thinking he was joking ;-)
nufkin - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to Siderunner:

> there was I thinking he was joking ;-)

Course he wasn't - any old punter can just 'eat' cake, but it takes hard work to really eat it. Proper discipline and structure, like
ice.solo - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to seankenny:

Rest is being in the parasympathetic neural zone, recovery isnt.
Recovery is upping things like circulation, lactic flushing and range of motion and requires activity, tho usually at a low rev.
Its the bit that puts the pieces back together again, whereas rest is when you recuperate at a more cellular, chemical level.

To apply it: like training itself, go deep into whatever aspect you are focussing on. Dont dabble.
Recover actively with gentle cardio and stuff that invigorates but not depletes
Make rest as deep as possible, maybe with massage and saunas.
Recovery stimulates, rest relaxes.
Not getting enough of either leaves out a vital element that affects development and needs to be factored with discipline like any other. It can be the hidden factor that breaks plateaus.

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